Starting 11 v San Marino

**Stuttgart88** · 24/10/2006, 3:30 PM

I agree DotTV, but I'd add that it's not just about talking. Like a centre-back pairing for example, sometimes defenders and goalkeepers take time to develop an understanding.

I think it's also important that a goalkeeper has his defenders' trust too. Even if Kenny was relatively blame free for many of the 9 recent goals he conceded (God,that's a lot!!) I think it's a hard situation to recover from. He & O'Brien, and I also think Dunne will need to pick themselves up.

When I was playing in nets I never played well if I felt a defender didn't rate me, whereas I always played my best behind a guy who I had developed a playing relationship with over time & whom I knew trusted me. Likewise, a slightly nervy defender (which let's face it, Dunne & O'Brien both are) will tend to play well in front of a confident keeper. Either way, it's self fulfilling. Doubts lead to hesitation and then mistakes.

In a way, the almost crisis like situation where Henderson, O'Shea & McShane came in afresh worked well because noone was carrying any baggage. It's a pity O'Shea let himself down for the Czech goal as I thought he had played well otherwise.

**eirebhoy** · 24/10/2006, 3:50 PM

Originally Posted by DotTV

Eirebhoy,
the keeper should be an extra pair of eyes for the defence.he sees everythin that is going on and if he's a good talker he should tell them where to cover etc.
Obviously he can't lead the line like a centre half but this level of communication is essential.You always see Given talking, it's a mark of a good keeper but unfortunately Kenny doesn't seem to do it at all.He looks like he's on a different wavelength to the entire defence.

I agree with that to a certain extent. Another Celtic example but when David Marshall is in goal Celtic usually concede. Marshall doesn't make many mistakes but the defence always seems more stable with Boruc behind them. Henderson and McShane spent a season at Brighton together though and Henderson was giving him plenty of taps on the back against the Czechs. Henderson should have saved the Czech goal though and I'd have the premiership keeper ahead of him in the ranks behind Given.

**DotTV** · 24/10/2006, 3:57 PM

You could give Kenny the nod for that reason but does anyone think that he kind of freezes a bit for Ireland?
I mean he is a relatively good keeper for Sheff Utd but I never remember him being outstanding for Ireland(in the few chances he's had).
Maybe the whole occasion of an international gets to him.

**Traps Cat** · 24/10/2006, 8:43 PM

Same team that started against the Czechs thanks very much - even if it is San Marino i still wouldnt f*** around any more with the team. Doyle and Dunne to be introduced later on.

**antrimgreen** · 25/10/2006, 7:25 AM

That is exactly my thoughts youwerethereray, i would play the same team same formation as fielded against the czechs, a bit of consistancy i feel would really make the difference. However if Given is available it goes without saying that he should be straight back in. (i am not to sure when shay is due back)

**youngirish** · 25/10/2006, 8:52 AM

Originally Posted by DotTV

You could give Kenny the nod for that reason but does anyone think that he kind of freezes a bit for Ireland?
I mean he is a relatively good keeper for Sheff Utd but I never remember him being outstanding for Ireland(in the few chances he's had).
Maybe the whole occasion of an international gets to him.

He's been absolutely shocking for Ireland as has John O'Shea. I personally don't care very much about club form, it should only be used as a guide to introduce someone to the team. If they are not performing for Ireland they should be dropped irrespective of club form.

If Staunton has any clue he'll bring Logan into the squad for San Marino and play him instead of Kenny if he continues to perform like he has done in the Championship this season. Henderson should also not be keeping Supple out of the squad while he's not playing for Brighton and Supple is playing for Ipswich.

**Stuttgart88** · 25/10/2006, 9:22 AM

Agree about Logan.

Hasn't it been the other way around recently: Supple on the bench, Henderson starting for Brighton? Supple only came on when Price got injured on Saturday. Henderson has recently won his place back.

**DotTV** · 25/10/2006, 9:47 AM

Good points about the goalkeepers Stuttgart.
A good keeper breeds confidence in his defenders. Didn't Dunne score an og at the weekend when the keeper called for the ball and Dunne took a swipe at it.Obviously he didn't trust his keeper enough to allow the ball go through to him.Similar things occured with Kenny.
I'd agree with the previous poster about not changing the team from the Czech game but with around 14 more players coming back on the scene that may not be possible.

**youngirish** · 25/10/2006, 9:57 AM

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Agree about Logan.

Hasn't it been the other way around recently: Supple on the bench, Henderson starting for Brighton? Supple only came on when Price got injured on Saturday. Henderson has recently won his place back.

Possibly. I know Henderson was out of the Brighton team when we played the Czechs. I reckon Supple will keep his place at Ipswich for a while. By all accounts he put in a good performance once Price went off and Price has had a couple of poor games recently.

**galwayhoop** · 25/10/2006, 10:03 AM

a good keeper will not only call for the ball and set up his defensive wall but he will talk the defenders through the game. when to go and when to drop. push up or hold. switch the ball or play it up the line. a good keeper must have a good understanding of the game and be strong enough mentally to marshal his defenders.

it is no co-incidence that keepers get better with age as their understanding and mental toughness gets better. when schmeichel was in his prime his outstanding attributes were not just his shot stopping but his reliability, the trust the defenders had in him and most importantly his presence.

given has all of the above - kenny, henderson or the others do not - yet

**irishfan86** · 25/10/2006, 10:32 AM

-------Henderson------

Finnan---Dunne---McShane---O'Shea

Duff---Carsley----A. Reid---Kilbane

---------Doyle-----Keane----

McGeady to come on early in the second half if we're not looking lively on the wings.

Douglas to come on if we need more bite in the center.

**antrimgreen** · 25/10/2006, 10:42 AM

No way would i personally play A Reid in the middle, does he have the engine considering his lack of games. He played well behind keane last day out and again if you went with your formation and selection irishfan86, you would be changing a formation that worked against the Czechs.

**irishfan86** · 25/10/2006, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by antrimgreen

No way would i personally play A Reid in the middle, does he have the engine considering his lack of games. He played well behind keane last day out and again if you went with your formation and selection irishfan86, you would be changing a formation that worked against the Czechs.

Perhaps I'm alone in my philosophy and tactics, but I choose a team based on a number of factors:

-Current form
-Past success
-The opponents

The fact is, we're not playing the Czechs, we're playing San Marino.

Having two ball winners in Douglas and Carsley in the centre is a bit redundant in a game where any analyst would predict we will have the lions share of possession.

With that in mind, we should have players who are more apt with the ball, rather than having a team with players who can win the ball but do little with it.

Andy Reid is a perfect playmaker to rip the San Marinos apart, in a diamond 4-4-2 with Carsley providing cover for the odd counter attack.

In addition, having Kilbane on the left adds a bit of size and physicality to the team in the midfield area, to make up for any perceived "lack of an engine" on Andy Reid's part.

That said, if Douglas, Miller, Quinn, or God forbid Kilbane move into the centre I still predict a victory, just not one as comprehensive as is possible.

**DotTV** · 25/10/2006, 11:04 AM

Antrim, Do we really need a 5 man midfield against a team like San Marino though?

**galwayhoop** · 25/10/2006, 11:18 AM

No.

we need players who have a bit of creativity to break down what you would expect will be a backs-to-the-wall set up by the marinonians (or what ever their plural is).

5 in the middle would be lunacy. horses for courses. i'm all for continunity but you need to be able to alter tactics according to the game.

IMO the reason we struggled to beat so called inferior opposition under charlton espically was our inability to alter our formation and tactics. the long ball/put em under pressure tactics used against ball playing sides worked but against lowly opponents it played into their hands

**eirebhoy** · 25/10/2006, 12:24 PM

Originally Posted by antrimgreen

No way would i personally play A Reid in the middle, does he have the engine considering his lack of games. He played well behind keane last day out and again if you went with your formation and selection irishfan86, you would be changing a formation that worked against the Czechs.

I think Reid is made for central midfield. I posted a link to an interview with Reid in a thread a few days ago and it says Dowie wants him to play in the middle. I'd let him play a good few games there for Charlton before playing him there in a competitive for Ireland but the San Marino game should be fine for him as long as Carsley's playing. He's an excellent passer, decent tackler, always willing to track back, intelligient and good positionally. How many times have I said this but Emre mark II!

**Stuttgart88** · 25/10/2006, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by eirebhoy

I think Reid is made for central midfield.

Me too. Antrim Green, there's a thread "Andy Reid" running just below this. On Monday I posted all the UK papers' reviews of Reid's performance. Pleasant reading!

**antrimgreen** · 25/10/2006, 1:33 PM

Dowie, though, decided on 4-4-1-1, with Darren Bent the lone frontman and Andy Reid given responsibility to shape the game behind him. In the first half this paid off, and Reid was the most influential player, his positioning and distribution a puzzle the visitors failed to solve.

This was my point stuggart, i would play him in front of the midfield and behind the frontman.

**Stuttgart88** · 25/10/2006, 1:38 PM

OK, understood.

I suppose the point I was making is that we shouldn't just think of him as a wide man. Personally I think he has everthing a good central midfielder has in terms of touch, vision. awraeness, range of passing etc. Whether he's able to continuously go from box to box as is required these days is debatable and it's certain that he'd need a solid player alongside him if he was to play CM. Carsley & Reid would work on paper in my opinion.

**ciano** · 26/10/2006, 1:20 AM

What about Joe Murphy, playing great stuff for Scunny at the moment getting man of the match performances, he surely deserves a call up at least. There was a time he was the next best thing when he was at Tranmere, pity he took the move to West Brom over Liverpool.