Lisbon Treaty

[rebelarmyexile]

Quite depressing to see that the Irish people (in particular the working classes) cannot tell the difference between right and wrong, i.e. the benefits of Lisbon being implemented and the lies and ill assumptions by the No side.

Though was proud to see that my constituency passed the Treaty, but a bit close for comfort.

[SMorgan]

A great great day to be Irish.

Its a day that Ireland said that its wasn't going to be bullied or threatened into accepting something that wasn't right.

Does these words not make you feel like a mug?

"Public opinion will be led to adopt, without knowing it, the proposals that we dare not present to them directly" ... "All the earlier proposals will be in the new text, but will be hidden and disguised in some way."

Valéry Giscard d'Estaing


When Cowen goes to Brussels he shouldn't accept any lectures from the French.

[GavinZac]

A great great day to be Irish.

No, no its not. I ask again, what have we achieved?

Its a day that Ireland said that its wasn't going to be bullied or threatened into accepting something that wasn't right.

Instead it was bullied and threatened into submission by the lies of a shady lobby group and a marginal nationalist, socialist political party. Oh yes, I feel wonderful.

Does these words not make you feel like a mug?
"Public opinion will be led to adopt, without knowing it, the proposals that we dare not present to them directly" ... "All the earlier proposals will be in the new text, but will be hidden and disguised in some way."
Valéry Giscard d'Estaing

Apart from him being an irrelevance from 80s French politics, you're also perpetuating a mistranslation. Here's a tip: Mostly people don't speak with ellipses.

[Calcio Jack]

[QUOTE=pineapple stu;962425]Funny to think that the Government is asking people like you to make decision on issues like these.


most if not all of the idiots in our Govt wouldn't be fit to lace my boots..a crowd of fools who supported the likes of Ahern, Haughey, Burke and their cronies, and ambled into an ambush by a few well organised groups from the 'no'side by not recognising the need to get out there and work hard at convincing the Irish people of the need to vote 'yes'.... now that's funny

[pineapple stu]

What were you going to do with the treaty if you were given it? Were you going to knock back for a few hours and have a read? Suppose it'd all fall into place then. Course, you could have read what you were sent in the post beforehand, but that sounds too much like common sense.

There should be regulations to judge you intelligent enough to vote. The first one would be that you'd fail.

[dfx-]

There's no "I couldn't vote"

Anyway, I'll get another chance to put that right and vote yes another time.

[Ambaiste!]

Apart from him being an irrelevance from 80s French politics, you're also perpetuating a mistranslation. Here's a tip: Mostly people don't speak with ellipses.

I'm sure you mean the 70s, but I'm still surprised that you would describe the man who served as President of the Convention on the Future of Europe as recently as 2003, and whose proposals formed the basis for the failed European Constitution upon which the Lisbon Treaty is largely based, as an "irrelevance".

[pineapple stu]

the benefits of Lisbon being implemented

What benefits were they?

Your post sums up the Yes argument - "It's good for us!!! But we're not going to make any attempt to explain why" That's why it failed.

[dfx-]

No, no its not. I ask again, what have we achieved?

Instead it was bullied and threatened into submission by the lies of a shady lobby group and a marginal nationalist, socialist political party. Oh yes, I feel wonderful.

I'm finding I agree with GavinZac and jebus more often recently. Should I be worried?

A not unexpected, but nonetheless embarrassing indictment of a result.

[GavinZac]

I'm finding I agree with GavinZac and jebus more often recently. Should I be worried?

A not unexpected, but nonetheless embarrassing indictment of a result.

Yes, because that means me and jebus are agreeing too

[NeilMcD]

I wonder what happens now when the start to renegotiate the Treaty. So they go through the wording to what exactly the Irish people rejected and they will be staring at a blank page for ages.

Reasons for rejections

1) Irish people like to use EU referendums and local elections to give two fingers to teh government and the establishment rather than having the balls to actually do it in an election

2) The cautionary principle which states thats if you dont understand a treaty reject it.

3) A terrible effort by the government and other major parties to convince the Irish people of the merits of the treaty.

4) A lack of information and sense of detachment of people from the EU and its bodies.


Its going to be a tough one now for the civil servants and politicians to re-negotiate a treaty nobody can identify key issues or any issues in the actual treaty.

[Calcio Jack]

What were you going to do with the treaty if you were given it? Were you going to knock back for a few hours and have a read? Suppose it'd all fall into place then. Course, you could have read what you were sent in the post beforehand, but that sounds too much like common sense.

There should be regulations to judge you intelligent enough to vote. The first one would be that you'd fail.

Well there isn't...nah,nah na nan nah !! I hope my response demonstrates how silly your comment was...get over it , the 'yes' side lost because they didn't have the intelligence or capability of arguing their view as well as the 'no' side did...

ps... I did read what was issued in the post...and have to say it was a very poor effort IMO it was badly laid out and actually too short and meant one had to go and source a copy of the Treaty and other docs to cross reference them to get the full picture..

"There's no sucess like failure and failures no sucess at all"....until today I never quiet understood what Bob was writing about , now I do.

[GavinZac]

Well there isn't...nah,nah na nan nah !! I hope my response demonstrates how silly your comment was...get over it , the 'yes' side lost because they didn't have the intelligence or capability of arguing their view as well as the 'no' side did...

They didn't have the benefit of being able to blatantly lie either. They could've said "The EU will buy you a house, or buy your house at the previous market rate!" and been within the same margin of truth as the EU army conscription stories.

[Poor Student]

Finally if you have to question Caesar's ideology, then you really are a poor student.

Must say, I resent that implication. Julius Caesar didn't try to unite Europe. He did take control of a Mediterranaen empire based in North Africa and Southern and Western Europe but in my opinion it was personally motived rather than driven by implementing or establishing an ideology.

As for the result, the luddites and the poorly educated made the difference obviously persuaded by some of the utter drivel from the No side. It was disheartening that right up to the last day I came across friends, colleagues and acquaintances with no understanding of the structures of the EU rendering it impossible to refute the falsehoods by now deeply engrained into them. Destroy what you don't understand seemed to be the attitude.

[Poor Student]

They didn't have the benefit of being able to blatantly lie either.

Let's face it, the treaty was a hard sell. Necessary technical adjustments to European structures were hard to sell to people who probably couldn't even name you the key institutions of the EU. Possibly exposing direct democracy at its weakest.

[dahamsta]

Threads merged, polls stripped, results merged into post #1.

[jebus]

Quite simply the gloating from the No campaign (people on here personify it) is disgusting, 'Yay we set Europe back by a year or two at a time when it really needs to come together!'. Congratulations

I'd also like to add that I too am worried about this Jebus/Gavinzac agreement on this issue, if we were to bring back NY Hoop and get him on side could we right call ourselves Foot's Axis of Evil?

[GavinZac]

Let's face it, the treaty was a hard sell. Necessary technical adjustments to European structures were hard to sell to people who probably couldn't even name you the key institutions of the EU. Possibly exposing direct democracy at its weakest.

Which of course calls into question the point of this going to referendum at all. Why do we elect MEPs to put together these treaties for us, then reject them out of hand without any real research, despite the advice of those we put trust in to develop them? There was a very good post earlier in... well, I guess its somewhere in this thread right now, which pointed out that the usage of a referendum seemed to be more for a mid-term boost for Fianna Fail than any constitutional/legal need for it.

[deecay]

I gather you think we'd be better off with Gerry Adams as Taoiseach then?

The thing about socalist/communist leaders in power is that many see the money and their beliefs go out the window.

I would like Joe Higgins to be Taoiseach

[kingdom hoop]

The No side have been written off for months on end, however he who laughs last, laughs loudest.

So that I might share in your joviality, what exactly is making you laugh?

I'm finding I agree with GavinZac and jebus more often recently. Should I be worried?

Not at all. Your screws are good and tight.

There was a very good post....

Here ya are Gav.