Setanta Cup Round 3

[OneRedArmy]

With the omission of a smiley, I'll take it you think I'm wumming so it doesn't matter.

Not at all, just an attempted injection of humour to a thread that appeared ready to dissolve into the tit for tat pointless stalemate that is the usual end to such topics.

If truth be told, I'd don't think many (any?) of us watch enough football in both leagues to judge, and in the case of the IL, its arguable that you're really only counting Setanta performances as the bucket sides that make up the majority of that League aren't really a fair comparison.

Before Steve and David eject their rattles from their prams, I've no doubt that hypothetically at least a couple of Linfield players deserve consideration (Thompson and Gault foremost).

[pete]

Did any one see the front page of the Herald? I know I should not be surprised a this stage but made it look like the LA Riots

[OneRedArmy]

Sad to see Dan McDonnell has graduated to the Mick McCaffrey level of journalism.

Whilst I can understand the "give the readers what they want" point of view its disappointing that an EL fan should contribute to such tripe.

[saint dog]

Not sure were you stood in the ground or if you have read the rest of this thread but some of your support behaved extremely badly for an entire 90 mins .There was lots of out of the ordinary stuff , unless you call people from cork and longford " filthy prody hun scummy *******s " .

i was on the camac , inchicore end
all i said was i didn't hear it
yes i have read the rest of it but thats doesn't mean I heard it
thats all i'm saying

[saint dog]

Read the Hearld last night too
talk about OTT

[Kingdom]

Not at all, just an attempted injection of humour to a thread that appeared ready to dissolve into the tit for tat pointless stalemate that is the usual end to such topics.

If truth be told, I'd don't think many (any?) of us watch enough football in both leagues to judge, and in the case of the IL, its arguable that you're really only counting Setanta performances as the bucket sides that make up the majority of that League aren't really a fair comparison.

Before Steve and David eject their rattles from their prams, I've no doubt that hypothetically at least a couple of Linfield players deserve consideration (Thompson and Gault foremost).

cool. I don't watch enough of either so I was just interested in seeing what the make up of such a side would be. I presume none of the LoI clubs would go for Thompson? He has been making the headlines so i'd imagine his next step is england yeah?

[pete]

Sad to see Dan McDonnell has graduated to the Mick McCaffrey level of journalism.

I suppose you can't blame him for the headlines but he does write the articles. When I hear him the odd time on Newstalk he comes across as the self appointed guardian of the LOI from the likes of Roddy...

[dcfcsteve]

cool. I don't watch enough of either so I was just interested in seeing what the make up of such a side would be. I presume none of the LoI clubs would go for Thompson? He has been making the headlines so i'd imagine his next step is england yeah?

Thompson's nest step will be wherever Linfield decide to sell him and he decides to go.

I'm sure both the club and player would prefer if that was England - or Scotland. But if a big EL club came in offering Linfield the right money, and there were no serious English/Scottish clubs sniffing around, then both club and player would have to think long and hard about not accepting it. I'm sure Thompson would personally probably prefer not to join an EL club, as I'm guesing he wouldn't see it as much of a step up, but if the money was right then it could primarily be a Linfield decisiion to make.

There will be a level at which the club would be daft not to sell him, and that level will diminish with Thompson's age, so I guess it's a case of wether any club - EL or not - decides to offer such money first. I haven't heard him linked with any EL clubs though.

[Kingdom]

Thompson's nest step will be wherever Linfield decide to sell him and he decides to go.

I'm sure both the club and player would prefer if that was England - or Scotland. But if a big EL club came in offering Linfield the right money, and there were no serious English/Scottish clubs sniffing around, then both club and player would have to think long and hard about not accepting it. I'm sure Thompson would personally probably prefer not to join an EL club, as I'm guesing he wouldn't see it as much of a step up, but if the money was right then it could primarily be a Linfield decisiion to make.

There will be a level at which the club would be daft not to sell him, and that level will diminish with Thompson's age, so I guess it's a case of wether any club - EL or not - decides to offer such money first. I haven't heard him linked with any EL clubs though.

Steve, what sort of fee do you a) think he's worth & b) think Linfield would look for?

[Jerry The Saint]

I suppose you can't blame him for the headlines but he does write the articles. When I hear him the odd time on Newstalk he comes across as the self appointed guardian of the LOI from the likes of Roddy...

http://www.independent.ie/sport/socc...e-1349774.html

Talk about having your cake and eating it... They clearly have no shame.

Is an all-Ireland league really worth the price?

...and won't somebody PLEASE think of the children. Nice headline from the sub-editor, accompanied yet again by the same Linfield fan who's become more photographed than David Beckham in the last few days.

Of course there's only so much mileage you can get out of a total non-event so the article goes on to say that the MEDIA blew the whole thing out of proportion. While continuing to blow.

THERE'S a theory in domestic football circles that the game here will only ever grab the front pages when it's a bad news story and espousers of that doctrine will feel justified in that assertion this week.

Those who attended Tuesday night's Setanta Sports Cup game between St Patrick's Athletic and Linfield have been surprised and angered by the publicity and photographs that have emerged in the aftermath. Inside Richmond Park, fans enjoying the game were largely oblivious to any skirmishes.

But clashes between visiting fans and gardai before kick-off, apparently arising over problems with forged tickets at the turnstiles, have commanded widespread attention and raised awareness that extensive police personnel was necessary to deal with the game in the first place.

At a time when Fintan Drury's Platinum One Group are strongly pushing an All-Ireland League, such instances at matches in a cross-border competition lead people to ask if such a concept is viable, with a suspicion that the spectre of such horrific images will always potentially be around the next corner.

Others believe such talk is scaremongering, but in the context of this latest event, it's worth examining where the idea stands.

1 What are the main arguments for an All-Ireland League?

The arguments are relatively straightforward. Both leagues, north and south, have their problems although the latter is definitely developing quicker in terms of professionalism. However, getting punters through the gate and, more pertinently, big-money sponsors remains a problem.

A fully professional league with 10 well-supported clubs is thought to be more commercially viable than what currently exists and, by extension, the standard of football would be better. Tuesday night's on-pitch action was thrilling stuff, although one-sided in favour of the hosts.

As some of the bigger League of Ireland clubs put it, with all due respect to the smaller fish singled out, is it easier to drum up interest in St Patrick's Athletic v Glentoran or St Patrick's Athletic v Linfield than St Patrick's Athletic v UCD or St Patrick's Athletic v Cobh? For them, it's a no contest.

There are also community bridge building aspects, with both governments thought to be keen on the idea.

2 What are the principal arguments against the concept?

Firstly, there are the political football ones. As Linfield boss David Jeffrey said on Tuesday night: "If you've got one league you've got to have one governing body.

"At this moment in time we have eight clubs in Europe, if you have one governing body you suddenly have four. That would be like turkeys voting for Christmas. Never mind the other implications regarding national team, national stadium and whatever else."

Then, we come to security issues. Disturbances, however minor, at recent games involving Linfield and Glentoran in Dublin prompt questions of whether people need this hassle on a regular basis.

Also, rather than being attracted to games by the better fare on offer, getting herded around by a large police presence is not attractive to fans -- particularly a family audience -- who may instead opt to stay at home feeling that it would be unsafe to venture out.

Gardai will also ask questions about the security cost of such operations, even if taxpayers are footing the bill.


3 Some have viewed it as a trial for an

All-Ireland League, so has the Setanta Cup been a security nightmare?

The short answer is no. The competition has been in existence for four years and, yes, there have been isolated flashpoints but if a few stumbling blocks were a reason to give up on anything then there wouldn't be a Good Friday Agreement.

Much as everyone would like it to be the case, the reality is that football fans from north and south will never be freely allowed to mingle and share sandwiches from car boots like GAA supporters.

Nevertheless, strong links between Linfield and Drogheda, to name just one example, have been built up through this competition. With two groups of people from very different cultural backgrounds -- albeit with much in common through football -- growing understanding will take time. As always, it's the actions of a minority that drag down the rest.

The counterpoint is that the biggest test will not be encountered until Bohs and Shamrock Rovers qualify for the competition. Both clubs have a youthful minority of 'fans' that cause trouble -- hence the police frenzy that surrounds their clashes -- so any game between either club and Linfield would be subject to the same attention as Tuesday night.

Those games would need to pass by smoothly, not just once, but on a regular basis to convince that an AIL is viable.

4 What are the obstacles to these problems being overcome?

The fact that difficulties surrounded the visits of Glentoran and Linfield to Inchicore has led to St Patrick's Athletic unfairly finding themselves in the headlines.

Bar a few teenagers, who seemed to be Celtic fans rather than Saints followers, the behaviour of their supporters on Tuesday was excellent. They were too busy savouring a wonderful performance from their players.

Alas, this is where the issue of facilities comes in. The reason that such a heavy security presence was necessary, with cops closing off roads and bus routes changed, is because Richmond Park only has one significant main exit and one smaller one which both come out onto the same street.

Segregation is a fact of life in football in the UK and has to be taken seriously here. The difference is that each ground has a properly designated away section and enough exits and entrances to ensure that logistically, contact between rival supporters near the grounds is practically impossible so the same level of policing is not required.

The main concern before the Setanta Sports Cup was about Derry City being able to compete without troubles.

While there have been some problems with supporters buses well away from stadia, what's transpired through preparation is that a large number of Derry fans can now travel to Windsor Park with no hint of trouble because the stadium is equipped to ensure things can pass off peacefully.

5 So where does the proposed All-Ireland League stand?

power brokers in the proposed Platinum One All-Ireland League were unavailable for comment yesterday but this question relates not just to their specific plan, but the concept as a whole -- be it the FAI or the IFA driving it -- or a separate group. Issues of power and politics in the blazer-wearing world are a story for another day.

In terms of security, though, Tuesday night's disturbances are no reason to give up on anything. What is clear is that any notion that such a league could be possible by next year is fanciful to say the least.

Sadly, the majority of the grounds and surrounding areas do not have developed enough facilities to deal with the idiotic fringe elements latched onto or not even associated with participating clubs and therefore heavy policing would always be required.

With that comes photographs of riot cops, dramatic over reactions and we're back to square one again. If the commitment is ever made to go down the route of an All-Ireland League then there's really no turning back.

It's too soon now to consider starting that journey, but it's far too early to abandon ever making it.

- Daniel McDonnell

[pete]

Hopeless article. Headline & picture focus on the security issue but IMO security is not a reason why AIL is too soon as there are a lot of other issues.

Streets are closed off for rugby & GAA games so closing for football means little. We are hardly talking about closing a main road. If as pointed out in the article Derry City can host Linfield at the Brandywell & visa versa then surely this is the biggest security test? Interesting that any security issues have happened in the ROI. How many cross border games have taken place at this stage?

[paudie]

Didn't think the article was too bad but the headline puts a negative slant on it straight away.

O'donnell minimises the potential security problems but does say that grounds do need upgrading for security purposes, which is fair enough. He also says that the media has overblown the events on Tuesday night.

Will be interesting to see if those events are mentioned on the EL preview slot on Newstalk tonight.

[Dodge]

He also says that the media has overblown the events on Tuesday night.

Fails to mention which morning paper overblew (nice word!) it most

The IT today had pieces from the Pats release and from the Linfield chairmen

[pól-dcfc]

You can call it all ireland if you want, it still doesn't take away the fact that it is two different countries that take up this island.

For instance, I spend GBP, you spend Euros, I pay tax's to the British Government, you pay tax's to the Irish Government, Our head of state is the Queen, your's is President Mary McAlease. Your speed is gauged in KMPH, ours is MPH etc etc.

I respect the fact that people can opt for the Irish nationality, that is their call and fine and dandy by me. But Northern Ireland is a seperate entity and until a referendum comes up and people agree for NI to become part of the Republic, then it is a seperate country.

No doubt I will get banned now for this post for what people will think is WUMMING, which is far from the truth.

The DCFC after my name, and the Derry top beside my name might indicate that I also pay for things in Sterling.

More to the point, you've really missed the point of what I was saying. No-one is asking you to join the league of another country. In fact, no-one is asking you anything yet. If a league containing some teams currently in the LoI and some from the IL does arrise, it will be a new league for the whole island. Not for one or other of the current political jurisdictions. I wasn't making a political statement when I wrote "ALL IRELAND" - merely stating that the league would be for all of the island of Ireland. Typical of you Steve to be honest. So desperatly clinging to your "Us v Them" attitude that you fail to understand even the simplist of points.

[inchicore_saint]

One league for the 32 counties of Ireland like it used to be,sounds good to me.

[thischarmingman]

One league for the 32 counties of Ireland like it used to be,sounds good to me.

...and one team from each county? That's grand, we'll take Fingal.

[kdjaC]

...and one team from each county? That's grand, we'll take Fingal.

Limavady for us


kdjac

[Steve Bruce]

Well some of the Welsh already play in England.

What difference is it if the Scots join them apart from the fact that turkeys will never vote for Christmas?

Welsh teams played in England before their was a welsh league. They just didn't take the invitation of playing in their domestic league and instead stayed in the English league.

[Steve Bruce]

The point is - you were asking why Linfield should join the league of another country.

Yet the person you asked this to had made it clear that he was talking about an all-island league. Not Linfield joining the EL, or the Republic's league, but a new/separate league for all of Ireland. One that would be the ownership of both 'countries' and, at the same time, the property of neither 'country'.

So no need for Linfield to join a different country's league. S'not difficult...

The difficulty is we would then have to give up our national side and whilst many on this island choose to ignore, there are many like me who are patriotic of NI(not in a rub your nose in it sort of way, but a genuine sort of way) I cannot agree to an all Ireland league at the cost of my national side who I am proud of.

Again this might come across as me being a WUM, it is not intended that way, it is my belief, which I know wont be popular.

[Steve Bruce]

Not at all, just an attempted injection of humour to a thread that appeared ready to dissolve into the tit for tat pointless stalemate that is the usual end to such topics.

If truth be told, I'd don't think many (any?) of us watch enough football in both leagues to judge, and in the case of the IL, its arguable that you're really only counting Setanta performances as the bucket sides that make up the majority of that League aren't really a fair comparison.

Before Steve and David eject their rattles from their prams, I've no doubt that hypothetically at least a couple of Linfield players deserve consideration (Thompson and Gault foremost).

I'm not too worried if you didn't include one player. I would give my team out and it would contain linfield players. It is down to opinion. I know Linfield haven't the best players in every position