I think its a bit harsh to describe Givens as a journeyman. He was regularly top scorer for a QPR team that just missed winning the title in the 70's and had some great players. If memory serves me right, he switched to centre half when he wa playing in Switzerland and his last 10 or so caps were either in that position or or coming on as a sub. I'd have him and Aldridge as my front 2.
Hmm, a few points
1. The FAI Irish Football Greats Selection - are people taking this as a guideline? It's by the FAI, for heaven's sake - arses and elbows look the same to these people half the time.
Some of the stats in it are priceless, like from Mark Lawrenson's thing- FAI get things straight as always.Giles reacted immediately, awarding the 19-year-old Deepdale youngster his first cap in the scoreless draw with Poland at Dalymount Park on April 24, 1997.
Refers to Givens being third in the list of Top Scorers behind Quinn and Stapleton, which is a bit tough on our inconsistent top scorer of all time. Makes a deal about Paddy Coad being one of the few never to leave the confines of the League of Ireland, yet doesn't think to mention any of the clubs he played with.
I hope that this helps prove the validity of the FAI view that Keane is not one of the greats. Not one of the Keane Fan Club, but he certainly is due a place there, he always burst himself for the national side (2002 World Cup notwithstanding!).
2. Like his counterpart in the senior side, Don Givens' management career should not be let overshadow his playing days when we talk of players. He was as effective a striker in his days as we ever had. Remember that it was ten years from his last goal for the country until Stapleton topped the record in Malta, I think, during a time when we were climbing above other sides. And to generalise sweepingly, when Givens played for us, we were one of the "Easy games in International football", at least away. We fininshed bottom of the group in qualifiers for the European Nations in 1972. I seem to recall reading about losing 6-0 to Austria in Linz in 1970 or thereabouts? Anyway, isn't his son Shay great in goal for us.
3. Jennings was a better player for NI than Best, though Best was the better player (I don't remember ever seeing Jennings beating a defender for pace with either club or country). Would pick Jennings ahead of Given or Bonner for an all-Ireland best ever team.
4. Glad to see someone mention John Sheridan - one of a number of players that Charlton didn't fancy during the best part of his career, quite like O'Leary, and a few others.
5. Houghton was not only the essential player for the Charlton system, he was also bloody good, too. His punditry and other antics leave one a little embarrassed, but as a player he was remarkable for both club and adopted country.
6. How can no-one have mentioned Kevin O'Callaghan - I mean to say, he was in Escape To Victory! If Sylvester Stallone hadn't forced him to have his arm broken, it could have been him making the penalty save!
7. Greatest Ever Player ever to play for National team mis-run by FAI: Liam Brady - again the quote about being able to do with one foot what everyone else needed to for. I mean, Platini was the man Juventus got to try to replace him. Underrated at club level, because he wasn't on the telly here every week when he went to Italy
8. Greatest Ever Player ever in the national shirt: Paul McGrath - did more for Ireland than anyone else I ever saw. Played the game properly, even under Charlton - his games against Italy particularly come to mind. And this is my choice without taking into account the fact that he was normally out of position, that he couldn't train, and the other aspects we are hearing about now.
That concludes this morning's broadcast
That question was less stupid, though you asked it in a profoundly stupid way.
Help me, Arthur Murphy, you're my only hope!
Originally Posted by Dodge
I'm surprised nobody has considered Kevin Sheedy. A crucial part of the Everton team that won the league and ECWC in 1985. I reckon Everton would have won the Champions Cup in 86 if the English clubs hadn't been banned.
In 4 games in Turkey prior to 1991 we failed to win any of them.
In that campaign we were the only country get a point in Turkey - Switzerland and the Soviets lost there. They also drew in Switzerland which we couldn't do.
They also reached a World Cup before we did - 1954 incl a 7-0 win over Soutk Korea and only losing to the eventual winners West Germany.
They had a poor Euro92 losing all qualifiers but weren't whipping boys. they also took a hammering from England in the 80's. They were never on a par with the current minnows.
As for Don Givens well I remember him well and he was a decent striker in a time when we didn't create many goalscoring chances.
Paul McGrath or Roy Keane.
There was some fella called O'Connor that was a CB in the 50s. He was Irish captain and played for Man Utd and Barcalona. I'm surprised he didn't make the FAI list.
He never really sparkled for us. Solid but not outstanding but I remember the great seasons he had for Everton.
The worst regular player during the Charlton era was Chris Morris. Pace but nothing else (on the football pitch) and like John O'Shea, would invariably give the ball away to the opposition. Could never understand Jack picking him so much.
Forget about the performance or entertainment. It's only the result that matters.
Givens went to QPR in 1972 from Luton and played until 1978 before moving on to Birmingham. While at QPR he played 242 games and scored 76 goals, forming one of the best front partnerships in the First Divsion at the time with Stan Bowles. He was no journeyman.
I think he only got one cap, his last, when playing for Neuchatel Xamax. Don't ever remember him playing CH for us.
BTW, gspain, surprised you didn't mention Don's greatest claim to fame! Being from Limerick
Honest! I am not a secret Tim nor a closet Sham - I really am a Seagull.
I don't suppose it this guy mentioned here Tommy O'Connor, it says he was a winger (elsewhere), not the captain either but then it's 1949, anyway it's only likely name I could find with google
Anyway apart from all that it's a web page well worth visiting, a lucky find!!
England 0; Ireland 2.
AND it has some footage of the match!! I don't know if it has been posted before but posting it again won't do any harm!.
http://www.toffeeandtayto.com/IrelandvEngland_1949.htm
(match footage incase you can't find it on the page).
http://www.toffeeandtayto.com/irelandvengland1949.WMV
(commentary is by John Motson's father
Jolly rotten luck England
roy keane...end of.
Man.Utd. fan, red tinted glasses, methinks!
Honest! I am not a secret Tim nor a closet Sham - I really am a Seagull.
Tommy O'Connor was an old fashioned outside left who played for Shamrock Rovers. Won his four caps in the space of nine weeks between September and November 1949.I don't suppose it this guy mentioned here Tommy O'Connor, it says he was a winger (elsewhere), not the captain either but then it's 1949, anyway it's only likely name I could find with google
Anyway apart from all that it's a web page well worth visiting, a lucky find!!
England 0; Ireland 2.
AND it has some footage of the match!! I don't know if it has been posted before but posting it again won't do any harm!.
http://www.toffeeandtayto.com/IrelandvEngland_1949.htm
(match footage incase you can't find it on the page).
http://www.toffeeandtayto.com/irelandvengland1949.WMV
(commentary is by John Motson's father
Jolly rotten luck England
Honest! I am not a secret Tim nor a closet Sham - I really am a Seagull.
I wonder are you thinking of Johnny Carey. He joined Man.Utd. before the war. He was in the army and played was posted to Italy where he played for several Italian clubs as a guest player.
After the war, he resumed at Man.Utd. and captained Ireland in 17 of the 18 internationals played between September 1946 and May 1951. He captained the side twice more in the 1952/53 season.
I dont think any other Man.Utd. player captained Ireland in the 50's.
Honest! I am not a secret Tim nor a closet Sham - I really am a Seagull.
If a player of Sheedy's quality comes into consideration then surely Ronnie Whelan would be ahead of him?
I just put Sheedy's name out there as a candidate for the LM berth in our "best ever XI", not as the single greatest player. I think based on club form rather than Irish form, as Owls Fan suggested. Tony Galvin was probably more effective under Jack.
I can't really remember Heighway. Better or worse than Sheedy or Duff?
Heighway was outstanding for Liverpool but for us he was ok - not unlike Sheedy. Duff at his best would be better than both for us.
Forget about the performance or entertainment. It's only the result that matters.
Duff it is so!
How many of our Northern brethern would get in to an all-Ireland XI I wonder.
Jennings, Rice, Best, Dougan? The south would have the centre midfield sown up with a choice from Giles, Keane, Brady, Whelan so we're really only talking forwards and backs.
Forget about the performance or entertainment. It's only the result that matters.
For outside left, the wing wizard Joey Haverty deserves honorable mention as a quality sub, entertainment value should also be a consideration.
My picks would be Brady, Roy Keane, McGrath in that order, if I had to include Northern Ireland players I'd stick Jennings between Keane and McGrath and throw Best in at number five. He may have had the most raw talent but he's an even bigger waste of space then Maradona in my opinion. I'm not including the North though because I never rated it much as a football team, or a country so I have never taken much notice of the place
And I wouldn't go by the Eurovision poll results that much anyway, they currently have Rio Fedinand streaking ahead in the greatest EVER English centre back poll!!!
I can ignore the jibes about "the North" [sic] and it's football team, just as I've ignored certain other posters' opinions such as that Given is better than Jennings; however, your assessment of Best is woefully ignorant.My picks would be Brady, Roy Keane, McGrath in that order, if I had to include Northern Ireland players I'd stick Jennings between Keane and McGrath and throw Best in at number five. He may have had the most raw talent but he's an even bigger waste of space then Maradona in my opinion. I'm not including the North though because I never rated it much as a football team, or a country so I have never taken much notice of the place
Yes, of course it's true that we never see the Best of George (sorry for the pun), but that only emphasises what an enormous talent the wee man had.
For your information, by the time he left MU at the age of 27 (after a year of arguing with new manager Tommy Docherty), he had played 466 games for United - that's 12 more than Keane.
He scored 178 goals for MU which, as a winger in teams with supreme goalscorers such as Denis Law, David Herd and Bobby Charlton, is stupendous.
He was voted English Footballer of the Year at the age of 22, though this is sometimes overshadowed by the fact that he was also EUROPEAN Footballer of the Year the same season.
And yes, Roy Keane performed mighty feats in that Champions League semi-final against Juventus. But have you ever seen footage of Best when he destroyed Benfica virtually single-handedly in Lisbon in 1966?
Benfica were unbeaten at home in the European Cup; after having drawn their first ever home game 0-0, they then won 20 consecutive home victories, scoring 86 goals and conceding 18. United humped them 5-1 and Best was the star of the show. Below is just a random "Google" about that match:
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...7/ai_n15900458
He was 19.
Or compare these Biographies of Best and Keane on a MU fans website:
http://www.manutdzone.com/legends/GeorgeBest.htm
http://www.manutdzone.com/playerpages/RoyKeane.htm
Having seen him play a few times, I have huge admiration for Keane as a player. But I've also seen Best play and there is simply no comparison, other perhaps, than if Best was "The Fifth Beetle", then Keane was "The Third Gallagher Brother".
P.S. Your dismissal of Maradona is similarly off the mark (imo). I was at the match in Dublin in 1979 when ROI played Argentina. Liam Brady was in midfield for the Irish and bossed the midfield - as good a player as was on the pitch. Until in the second half, Argentina introduced this tiny little 18 year-old, who proceeded to make everyone else look decidedly ordinary - Brady included. I remember reading that it was only because of his youth and the fact the tournament was in Argentina that prevented Menotti from having played him in the 1978 World Cup at 17.
It can't have been because he wasn't good enough, since according to Google, he had already made his professional debut for Boca Juniors at the age of 15 and was picked for the full international team at 16. It doesn't say who Roy Keane was playing for at that age...
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