Nations League - Political Discussion

[Plib]

Sadly another person who doesn't understand the actual meaning of "Whataboutery".Whataboutery is where someone uses one incident to defend his/her own conduct in another eg "You can't blame me for stealing £5, because that fella over there stole £10". Which would be like eg Netanyahu defending his assault on Gaza because of the Hamas assault on October 7th, 2023Rather the issue here is one of double standards. That is, someone rushing to condemn Israel over the crimes committed in Palestine, while not a word from them on the crimes committed by Hamas on October 7th. Note that I am not making an equivalence between the two, or in any way defending Israel's war crimes in Palestine, but for some people dead Palestinian babies = "Terrible", dead Israeli babies = "So what?" Which is where many of the people campaigning for Palestine come in, they see only Israeli crimes, but don't care about Hamas etc. Worse still, as Bottle of Tonic correctly pointed out, when those critics come from Sinn Fein. Not only do they display double standards eg between Palestine and Ukraine, but you can add rank hypocrisy to the charge sheet, what with their being inextricably linked to, and supportive of, a terrorist organisation which murdered 1,700 people in their own back yard within living memory.Back to you, Ms. Byrne...

Claims I don't know what whataboutism is, then proceeds to exhibit whataboutism. Right Ted, good for you....Deflecting the conversation from valid criticism of a regime that at best is committing war crimes, and saying "what about Hamas" is whataboutism. And everything else you said there was word salad and nonsense. We are not playing Hamas in a football match, and bringing that up is just whataboutism, as we have no skin in that game. Words have meaning, and you trying to change the definition doesn't make it so.

[Slartibartfast]

They've received nothing but genocide

My post was to state solely that we wouldn't be happy to play Russia either.

I know that lad i was replying to the irish farage post above you

[pineapple stu]

I simply think the genocide of the ukrainians doeant seem to get the same attention deapite being far worse. Is it absurd to wonder why or ia it juat impolite of me to ask?

Putin has killed more probably by a factor of 10

I think this needs to be called out as completely false. It's hard to confirm exact numbers of course, but wiki has 86k deaths in Palestine since October 2023. (Links below because the link tag is gone). For Ukraine, there's an estimate of 160k dead (civilians and soldiers) since Feb 2022. So maybe twice as many deaths in Ukraine over roughly twice the timeframe. They're comparable, which of course is why people want the countries to be treated comparably. Then of course you have the fact that Israel's actions in Palestine have been going on for a lot lot longer than Russia in Ukraine.

It's hard to talk in degrees of genocide of course - genocide is genocide, and I'm pleased to see you at least indirectly acknowledge it given your denial of it on another thread - but the ongoing Israeli targetting of civilians makes Israel a particularly nasty entity (I actually don't have a real problem with the earlier post describing them as evil)


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palest...ualties_of_war

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casual...rainian_losses

[EalingGreen]

Claims I don't know what whataboutism is, then proceeds to exhibit whataboutism. Right Ted, good for you....Deflecting the conversation from valid criticism of a regime that at best is committing war crimes, and saying "what about Hamas" is whataboutism. And everything else you said there was word salad and nonsense. We are not playing Hamas in a football match, and bringing that up is just whataboutism, as we have no skin in that game. Words have meaning, and you trying to change the definition doesn't make it so.

Dear God!

Nowhere in that post, or any other, have I in any way defended Israel's assault on Gaza by reference to Hamas's assault on Israel, nor would I, since that would be true "Whataboutery". Instead I have no hesitation in condemning both.

Rather what I am saying is that anyone who selectively condemns one, while staying silent on the other, is guilty of double standards which, I repeat, is NOT the same as Whataboutery.

While if that person has also been apologetic for, even supportive of, outrages elsewhere, then he/she moves on from double standards to rank hypocrisy.

None of which is difficult to understand or misconstrue - unless you want to.

[Plib]

Dear God!Nowhere in that post, or any other, have I in any way defended Israel's assault on Gaza by reference to Hamas's assault on Israel, nor would I, since that would be true "Whataboutery". Instead I have no hesitation in condemning both.Rather what I am saying is that anyone who selectively condemns one, while staying silent on the other, is guilty of double standards which, I repeat, is NOT the same as Whataboutery.While if that person has also been apologetic for, even supportive of, outrages elsewhere, then he/she moves on from double standards to rank hypocrisy.None of which is difficult to understand or misconstrue - unless you want to.

Definitions are important and you framed whataboutism is a very narrow way, as being specifically about a person's own conduct and using other peoples conduct to deflected from themselves. That is deliberately narrow, as it frames things nicely for you to dismiss the point as "double standards"Whataboutism is "the propaganda strategy of responding to an accusation with a counter-accusation instead of offering an explanation or defense against the original accusation.""It is used to derail conversations, avoid admitting wrongdoing, or shift blame"In this broader definition, my original point that bringing up Putin, Ukraine, Nato, or any other conflict and questioning someone's integrity and argument is definitely "Whataboutism". And whether you want to frame it as "double standards" doesn't really change that in the slightest.

[EalingGreen]

Definitions are important and you framed whataboutism is a very narrow way, as being specifically about a person's own conduct and using other peoples conduct to deflected from themselves. That is deliberately narrow, as it frames things nicely for you to dismiss the point as "double standards"Whataboutism is "the propaganda strategy of responding to an accusation with a counter-accusation instead of offering an explanation or defense against the original accusation.""It is used to derail conversations, avoid admitting wrongdoing, or shift blame"In this broader definition, my original point that bringing up Putin, Ukraine, Nato, or any other conflict and questioning someone's integrity and argument is definitely "Whataboutism". And whether you want to frame it as "double standards" doesn't really change that in the slightest.

Get someone else to explain the definition you are quoting, and where you're going wrong, since I can't be arsed trying any further.

[tetsujin1979]

This is going on and on. The definition of whataboutism has little, or no, bearing on the nations league draw.

[SkStu]

This is going on and on. The definition of whataboutism has little, or no, bearing on the nations league draw.

Yeah but what about the World Cup draw?

[Plib]

Get someone else to explain the definition you are quoting, and where you're going wrong, since I can't be arsed trying any further.

Whataboutery (or whataboutism) is a rhetorical tactic that deflects criticism by accusing the opponent of hypocrisy or raising a different, unrelated issue rather than answering the original charge. It aims to derail arguments and avoid accountability. Common examples include: Encyclopedia BritannicaPolitical Deflection: A government criticized for human rights abuses responds with, "But what about the atrocities in [other country]?".Basically your tactic with this topic. Your made up definition is what?Or you just going to accept you are wrong, and its not "double standards"

[rebelmusic]

Can we remove this from the Ireland section altogether @Tets? The conversation has been reduced to debating terminology

[Eirambler]

FAI confirming it's game on in Dublin anyway. I see the holier than thou crowd on social media have now decided it's the responsibility of "the people" to stop it going ahead, as though they represent the views of everyone.

[Plib]

What you seeing online? Don't like you using that phrase "holier than thou", its pretty dismissive of any point people make that you don't want to agree with without actually being defined.In saying that, haven't seen too much reaction just yet, but realistically, not a lot the average person can do to stop this game if the FAI are happy to play it.If uefa sanction Israel then who knows, but can't see it happening either. Not before these games anyway

[sbgawa]

It will be interesting to see the attendance at the game assuming it goes ahead.

[SkStu]

What you seeing online? Don't like you using that phrase "holier than thou", its pretty dismissive of any point people make that you don't want to agree with without actually being defined.In saying that, haven't seen too much reaction just yet, but realistically, not a lot the average person can do to stop this game if the FAI are happy to play it.If uefa sanction Israel then who knows, but can't see it happening either. Not before these games anyway

I did respond to you the last time you took umbrage at the use of "holier than thou" and you ignored my post and the examples I gave. There is an element of moral superiority at play in the exchanges online on this topic to date without doubt. It would be insincere to deny that.

[Plib]

I didn't ignore it, I read it and accepted you had a point on that example. But an example and blanket statement across the board are very different things. You producing an example and saying "this was what I was talking about", and me accepting you had a point in that scenario, and someone saying "holier than thou" people are taking responsibility for the whole countries perspective and are trying to stop the game now (which borders on conspiracy theory) are very different things.You backed up your point, tbf probably should have liked it to acknowledge i seen it. But I don't believe in creating "boogie men" that are doing things i don't like. So saying there are some "holier than thou" people trying to stop football being played without examples, comes across as wanting questioning

[Razors left peg]

Havent looked through the pages of this thread, but my own personal opinion on the Israel games is that if we dont play them we are the ones that would end up with the ban from UEFA. Go and beat the sh1te out of them on the pitch. Ideally they would be banned, but in an ideal world Infantino wouldnt be cosying up to Trump and the World Cup should be removed from the US. We cant always get what we want.

[Diggs246]

The police need to take this out of everyone's hands. how can they guarantee the Isrealis players and staff safety (btw im assuming their fans will be banned , if not Someone could lose their life) if Hungary are happy to have us back! , lets play both games home and away in Budapest

[Slartibartfast]

It will be interesting to see the attendance at the game assuming it goes ahead.

Why? what kind of spin are genocide denying types likely to put on the size of the crowd i wonder ?

[Eirambler]

The police need to take this out of everyone's hands. how can they guarantee the Isrealis players and staff safety (btw im assuming their fans will be banned , if not Someone could lose their life) if Hungary are happy to have us back! , lets play both games home and away in Budapest

Why wouldn't they be able to do that? At the risk of sounding like Roy Keane, that's literally their job. We either have a competent police force or we don't, if they can't handle a football match then that's an admission that they're not fit for purpose.

[Diggs246]

Why wouldn't they be able to do that? At the risk of sounding like Roy Keane, that's literally their job. We either have a competent police force or we don't, if they can't handle a football match then that's an admission that they're not fit for purpose.

I meant more around the Israeli team hotel etc