Gavin Bazunu G Standard Liege (loan from Southampton) b.2002

[pineapple stu]

Harsh, given it was deflected from very close range!

Yeah, for context, it's here at 1:15. "Very close range" is about 3 yards like! You can't use that to argue for Bazunu over Kelleher given Bazunu has unfortunately let in more than his share of weak efforts lately.

[SkStu]

I am a staunch believer in the current ability and future potential of Bazunu. There has been a faction of support that, for whatever reason, have had the knives out almost since day one behind a solid campaign for Kelleher to be our first choice. At no point until recently, i believe, was this a realistic take but right now it is hard to see past Kelleher.

With all of that for context, it does really bother me that we do have posters that question Bazunu's ability and potential. I just cannot reconcile it. He has won plaudits everywhere before Southampton - player of the season stuff. He is recognized as one of the best (and/or most promising) young keepers in Europe. He is a very good goalkeeper going through a bad patch in what was otherwise a reasonably successful season for him. When Southampton went on their run he had the fans broadly onside and was performing well. But he has had some stinkers - mistakes and fumbles (that the stats dont show) that dont do anyones confidence any good - fans, management or the player himself. Most young keepers playing at a high level go through this as part of their growth. I cant think of one who hasnt?? And at the end of the day, it is how he responds that will be most important. But again, i cant believe that i find myself having to try and convince more than one poster on here that he is a good goalkeeper with a hell of a lot of additional upside...

In retrospect, I think Southampton was just a bad move. Instability, weakened squad, poor defence and a losing tendency in the premiership was just a bad move. At the time I thought it would be fine but it hasnt played out well for him. And, as many of the pro-Kelleher faction (joke!) point out, moving for the sake of moving is not always the best strategy. In retrospect, i dismissed that perspective a bit too easily. There are legitimate questions there for sure about that decision, his judgement, call it what you like.

[pineapple stu]

Then [Southampton] turned out to be a dumpsterfire

I - and others - pointed out that the problem was the Southampton defence - not Bazunu - a goalkeeper is only ever as good as the ten players in front of him.

Then the wheels came off the Southampton bandwagon - starting with the 5-3 win against Huddersfield - they lost 3 of the next 4 and then lose a game against Ipswich that they should have won. All of the old defensive issues came back to haunt the team.

So 3 goals conceded - Southampton lose the ball at midfield, Ipswich break, the Southampton defence is a shambles

Ipswich's second goal demonstrated all the problems with Southampton's defence

The three Ipswich goals were all the fault of poor defending

Southampton's defence will be torn to shreds in the PL - just like it was last season - and I could easily see them shipping more than the 73 goals they let in last season - and that is irrespective of who is in goals for them.

Isn't is amazing though how all Southampton's problems are the defence and none are the keeper? (And this a defence that's given up fewer chances than most other defences - fewer than everyone bar Leeds and WBA this season; fewer than everyone bar Man City, Newcastle, Arsenal, Mand Utd and Brighton last season). It's a really lazy analysis to be honest. "Bazunu is great, therefore the problem must be with the defence". There's no real depth to the analysis other than starting from the desired answer and working backwards. Your post can be summarised as "My view + Scene missing = Fact"

Martin appeared to sort out the defence - and Southampton went on a 22 game undefeated run - climbed from 15th to 2nd - and there was barely a murmur on this thread for weeks while Bazunu was playing exceptionally well (with a better defence in front of him) and Bazunu was making saves that were crucial for the result in multiple games.

Actually Bazunu wasn't playing exceptionally well, and wasn't making saves that were crucial for the result in multiple games. In many games he didn't make a save at all because Southampton were so much on top. His form improved, partly because he had less to do, and partly because most of what he was being asked to do was to build attacks from the back, which he seems quite good at. But once the opposition started getting shots on goal again, it went south.

I think Bazunu was unsighted for the shot because there was a gaggle of players between him and the strike of the ball.

The flip side of that is to argue his positioning was poor for that one precisely because he placed himself behind a gaggle of players - and left the whole left side of goal wide open. Is it coincidence the ball ended up there? It's the one of the three I least blame him for, mind, because of the unlikely way the shot came in, but you're still starting off with the view that Bazunu is great and working out the excuse from there.

I will also say that I wouldn't take a blind bit of notice of the Leicester forum

I don't care what the stats say

Oh don't we know. They don't fit your preconceived view, therefore they must be wrong. But that's not a real argument.

About the only plus side for Bazunu at the moment is that the keeper Southampton signed this season, Joe Lumley, had the worst PSxG record of any keeper in the Championship last season, while Alex McCarthy seems past it at this stage.

[Eirambler]

Can't believe anyone would blame Kelleher for that OG - that was on Bradley who lost his man on the cross (incidentally Bradley has a lot of work to do on the defensive side of his game that would be shown up in a weaker team I think).

The other side is coaching, genuinely has he gotten the right coaching over the last 3 years to bring him onto the level that his talent reflected?

This is why I wouldn't actually mind seeing Bazunu moving to become a number 2 at a top tier club for a year or two if the opportunity came up. He will have learned an awful lot from four consecutive seasons of first team football by the age of 22, but going to a club where he could learn from the top GK coaches and train with a top class keeper might actually be a better way of tidying up some of the issues in his game now.

[Jolly Red Giant]

Isn't is amazing though how all Southampton's problems are the defence and none are the keeper? (And this a defence that's given up fewer chances than most other defences - fewer than everyone bar Leeds and WBA this season; fewer than everyone bar Man City, Newcastle, Arsenal, Mand Utd and Brighton last season). It's a really lazy analysis to be honest. "Bazunu is great, therefore the problem must be with the defence". There's no real depth to the analysis other than starting from the desired answer and working backwards. Your post can be summarised as "My view + Scene missing = Fact"

When have I ever said that Bazunu is 'great' ?

Let me ask you this question - how many Southampton games have you watched this season ? - I'll even make it easier - how many Southampton games have you watched the highlights of? - or is it a case that you just scurry off to study your stats after every game, just so that you can some on here to ridicule Bazunu's performance when the stats claim he is the worst goalkeeper in the Championship ?

The Achilles heel for Southampton, just like last season, is the failure of their defence to close down attackers lining up to strike the ball - time and again the striker has an age to set-up, pick a spot and shoot. When you give a good striker that amount of time they will score more often than not irrespective of who is in goal.

Actually Bazunu wasn't playing exceptionally well, and wasn't making saves that were crucial for the result in multiple games. In many games he didn't make a save at all because Southampton were so much on top. His form improved, partly because he had less to do, and partly because most of what he was being asked to do was to build attacks from the back, which he seems quite good at. But once the opposition started getting shots on goal again, it went south.

See questions above -

The flip side of that is to argue his positioning was poor for that one precisely because he placed himself behind a gaggle of players - and left the whole left side of goal wide open. Is it coincidence the ball ended up there? It's the one of the three I least blame him for, mind, because of the unlikely way the shot came in, but you're still starting off with the view that Bazunu is great and working out the excuse from there.

Not the case - I would argue that Bazunu was positioned in the correct spot for a left-footed shot on a ball coming in from his right - he lost line of sight when the Ipswich player fell over and two Southampton players (one was Smallbone) moved a step to the left without challenging Sarmiento as he got up and toe-poked the ball into the corner with his right-foot. There were four Southampton players within two yards of Sarmiento, four players who saw him trip himself up, fall over, scramble back onto his feet and get a shot away, without one of them getting any kind of a challenge in or attempting to block the shot. Smallbone should have thrown himself in front of the ball (Shane Duffy style) to prevent it getting anywhere near the goal, instead he just stood there and then held his hands out to say 'what the hell just happened here'.

I do think that Bazunu was slightly out of position for the second goal - a step too far to his right and he looked like he was anticipating a shot to his right and seemed to talk a half step to the right before diving to the left - a combination of all three left him unable to reach the ball. This is why I suggest that the second goal was the one I would have expected him to save from the three - and it was the most crucial goal in the game - save that and Southampton probably win - conceding it led to increased pressure on Southampton and ultimately the concession of the winning goal for Ipswich. I did say that Bazunu did not have a good game against Ipswich and does bear the primary responsibility for Southampton losing the game. When you play a young goalkeeper you have to expect this to happen. It must also be noted that Ipswich are a good team and Kieran McKenna is a way better coach than Russell Martin.

Oh don't we know. They don't fit your preconceived view, therefore they must be wrong. But that's not a real argument.

When stats are being used to claim that Bazunu is the worst goalkeeper in the Championship you are damned right I am going to dismiss them.

About the only plus side for Bazunu at the moment is that the keeper Southampton signed this season, Joe Lumley, had the worst PSxG record of any keeper in the Championship last season, while Alex McCarthy seems past it at this stage.

On the plus side - you are not picking any team that Bazunu plays for and your comments have zero impact on his performance.

On a more general point (not addressing this to stu specifically because it doesn't directly relate to goalkeeping stats) - goalkeepers have the most difficult job of any of the eleven players on a soccer team - they are expected to save everything - they are not expected to make mistakes - they are the first to be blamed when a goal is conceded etc. Soccer is a team game - you attack from the back and you defend from the front - and when that breaks down the one player that gets exposed is the goalkeeper.

All goalkeepers can and do make mistakes - the best goalkeepers tend to make the fewest mistakes and be consistent, but also tend to be protected by the best defences - and they usually only get to that stage after 10/15 years of good coaching and development.

Ireland are currently ranked 60th in the FIFA rankings - but I would happily have Bazunu, Kelleher and Travers in my squad ahead of Scotland's (ranked 39th) Gunn, Kelly and Gordon, ahead of Wales (29th) Hennessy, Ward and King - even ahead of England's (ranked 4th) Pickford, Ramsdale and Trafford. In fact there are very few international squads that I would rank their 3 goalkeepers ahead of the three we have available. It is further worth noting that very few international squads have goalkeepers who are as young as the Irish keepers and few that have goalkeepers who are under 30 years of age. Kelleher is 25, Travers is 24 and Bazunu is 22 - and they all play in the a country that is flooded with money to buy the best players, including the best goalkeepers. Most of the larger countries have one top goalkeeper - but the quality quickly drops off after that. Ireland has the potential in the next five years to have two top level keepers and a third one who will be at least a good Championship level keeper who could also develop into a PL player in the future.

We have good goalkeepers who are still developing and (potentially) will get (a lot) better - it what is in front of them that we really need to address.

[Jolly Red Giant]

This is why I wouldn't actually mind seeing Bazunu moving to become a number 2 at a top tier club for a year or two if the opportunity came up. He will have learned an awful lot from four consecutive seasons of first team football by the age of 22, but going to a club where he could learn from the top GK coaches and train with a top class keeper might actually be a better way of tidying up some of the issues in his game now.

Bazunu is on a five year contract from last year - so I suspect he will be at Southampton for the foreseeable future - if they were to buy a keeper, he will not be anything approaching a top class keeper and that would not make any difference if they are promoted.

My preference would be for Martin to get sacked for failing to get them promoted - a new coach who is able to organise a defence is hired - and a proper goalkeeping coach.

I would agree with stu on one other thing - Southampton have nothing behind Bazunu - and a keeper who would provide more competition for Bazunu would, in my opinion, be good for his development.

[pineapple stu]

how many Southampton games have you watched the highlights of?

I actually regularly watch the highlights - the Sky Sports site is great for that (I've linked their highlights here a few times; usually available within an hour of the final whistle). That's one of the main reasons I know you're talking nonsense when you make claims like how Bazunu makes at least one great save per game.

Southampton fans regularly watch their games too and I can see from their forum that - as others here have said - there's a definite lack of confidence in him. It lifted briefly while they were doing very well (that is, while they were keeping the ball away from him), but it's come back home to roost with avengeance lately. Even Russell Martin commented on it after the last game. No doubt you think they're talking nonsense too. After all, when people claim he's the worst keeper in the Championship, "you're damn right I'm going to dismiss them" - but that's not an argument. That's back to "My view + scene missing = fact!"

But at this stage I think we all expect no better from you in fairness. It's like Orwell at this stage - keeper good, defence bad. Repeat until people start to believe it over the evidence of their eyes.

[Jolly Red Giant]

I actually regularly watch the highlights - the Sky Sports site is great for that (I've linked their highlights here a few times; usually available within an hour of the final whistle). That's one of the main reasons I know you're talking nonsense when you make claims like how Bazunu makes at least one great save per game.

I regularly watch entire games involving Southampton - and the highlights show 4/5/6 incidents per game - and even then they will show Bazunu making saves. Furthermore, try direct quotes, rather than your usual paper castles

Southampton fans regularly watch their games too and I can see from their forum that - as others here have said - there's a definite lack of confidence in him. It lifted briefly while they were doing very well (that is, while they were keeping the ball away from him), but it's come back home to roost with avengeance lately.

Football fans are passionate and volatile - and, as I pointed out before, when things are going bad the goalkeeper is usually the brunt of the criticism. As for your 'keeping the ball away from him' - that is what a defence is supposed to do.

Even Russell Martin commented on it after the last game. No doubt you think they're talking nonsense too.

And where did I place the blame for Southampton's loss last Monday - or did you conveniently just decide to ignore it because it doesn't fit in with your argument.

After all, when people claim he's the worst keeper in the Championship, "you're damn right I'm going to dismiss them" - but that's not an argument. That's back to "My view + scene missing = fact!"

But at this stage I think we all expect no better from you in fairness. It's like Orwell at this stage - keeper good, defence bad. Repeat until people start to believe it over the evidence of their eyes.

We all know that stats are the be-all-and-end-all for you - irrespective of anything else - and claiming nonsense like Bazunu is the worst keeper in the Championship certainly fits into the narrative that you have been pushing for a long time now.

[Jd2793]

We all know that stats are the be-all-and-end-all for you - irrespective of anything else - and claiming nonsense like Bazunu is the worst keeper in the Championship certainly fits into the narrative that you have been pushing for a long time now.

Would you give over. Nobody would be saying a lot about bazunu if he was closer to even -3 or -4 goals prevented. the stats are never the full story but they do tell you something, ignoring that is burying your head in the sand. lets be realistic about where gav is here. he is the worst shot stopper (stu isnt saying worst overall) in the championship by a few metrics. Bazunu would admit himself that thats not good enough. All the players these days are fed the same stats (in much finer detail) to help them with improving their game + contract talks etc. he'll know himself how they show him in a poor light alongside video highlights etc.

[pineapple stu]

Good summary JD

I mean, it misses the important fact that JRG is right no matter what anyone else has to say, and is in fact so far right he doesn't even need to back up why he's right. A minor point though...

Anyway, let's see how today goes - up against Sammie. Can't miss v can't save? All set up for a great performance

[Jolly Red Giant]

Would you give over. Nobody would be saying a lot about bazunu if he was closer to even -3 or -4 goals prevented. the stats are never the full story but they do tell you something, ignoring that is burying your head in the sand. lets be realistic about where gav is here. he is the worst shot stopper (stu isnt saying worst overall) in the championship by a few metrics. Bazunu would admit himself that thats not good enough. All the players these days are fed the same stats (in much finer detail) to help them with improving their game + contract talks etc. he'll know himself how they show him in a poor light alongside video highlights etc.

stu has been banging on about Bazunu's stats for a very long time now - and I have never seen one positive post from stu in relation to Bazunu (I'm sure it will be dug out now that I have made this comment).

Of course Bazunu is not the finished article - he is 22 years old - goalkeepers do not reach their prime until they are 30 years old. I will repeat again - Bazunu has and will continue to concede a lot of shots because the Southampton defence have a propensity of standing off strikers with the ball, allowing them to set-up, pick their spot and strike the ball without any challenge. When you do that the striker will score more often than not, irrespective how good the keeper is. You are exposing your goalkeeper and the keeper will always get the blame (and under Kenny Ireland had a similar propensity).

My responses to stu (and some others) are that they adopt a hypercritical approach in relation to Bazunu - an approach that is not taken in relation to any other player in the squad - and this is despite the fact that Bazunu is and will be one of the best keepers ever to play for Ireland. I openly admit that I bend the stick the other way - because it is needed when such a hypercritical approach is taken.

Gavin Bazunu has flaws - I am sure he knows his weaknesses and I am sure he is working on them. However, even with these flaws he is a cracking good keeper - one that we are lucky to have. I expect him to develop and improve and I think he is capable of becoming one of the top keepers in the PL. Time will tell if that happens. He is not in a great situation at the moment - he is playing in a team where the manager emphasises attack, not defence - he is repeatedly exposed by his defence - he bears the brunt of the criticism for the failings of the team in relation to defence. From what I can see he doesn't have a good coaching situation to help him - and he could end up in a worse situation if Southampton get promoted.

I have agreed with the assessment that Bazunu has not progressed as he should have this season - and he does need to address his weaknesses in a more proactive way because if he doesn't they will become embedded in his play. However, as Irish fans we have a different outlook and want different outcomes than Southampton do - we want Bazunu to develop to ensure that we have a secure goalkeeper for the international team over then next 15 years or so. Southampton have the option to go out and buy a different keeper if they feel Bazunu does not develop sufficiently. We do not have that luxury - we are stuck with what comes through the wider football system in this country - and it would be a major surprise if we find another keeper of the standard of Kelleher and Bazunu in the next 15 years.

By all means criticise Bazunu - when he deserves it. But do it in a balanced way, not in a hypercritical fashion. Recognise that he is still a kid in goalkeeping terms, learning his trade and trying to do it in a much, much more difficult situation than Caoimhin Kelleher, with far less resources. One of the key factors between the two is that Kelleher can have complete confidence in the defence in front of him and his play benefits accordingly - Bazunu is exposed by his defence and clearly cannot have confidence in it. This leaves Bazunu in a position where he is more hesitant in his goalkeeping that Kelleher needs to be, and it is clearly impacting on his performance and his development. I made this point before - put Bazunu into the WBA team (where they have a journeyman goalkeeper who is 27 years old and has spent his entire career bouncing around non-league and League 2 teams) and you would see different play from Bazunu - he would be in a much better situation and would develop far more rapidly - unfortunately he is stuck in Southampton for the foreseeable future.

[Eirambler]

Can't miss v can't save?

It was all set up for a 0-0 as soon as you posted that!

[pineapple stu]

The power of a pokey internet forum in the corner of the internet!

[Jolly Red Giant]

One noticeable feature of the Blackburn v Southampton game were the number of shots blocked by Southampton defenders and the number of shots that the striker was under pressure from the defender. That did not happen last Monday and Southampton conceded three goals - it did happen yesterday, repeatedly, and Southampton had a clean sheet. Bazunu had a clean game, made a couple of decent saves that you would expect him to make and did a decent job distributing the ball.

[Stuttgart88]

Actually Bazunu wasn't playing exceptionally well, and wasn't making saves that were crucial for the result in multiple games. In many games he didn't make a save at all because Southampton were so much on top. His form improved, partly because he had less to do, and partly because most of what he was being asked to do was to build attacks from the back, which he seems quite good at. But once the opposition started getting shots on goal again, it went south.

I think that's unfair. I didn't see many of the games during their good run but I'd look on Twitter to see how he was doing and quite often during that spell there'd be posts like "credit to Bazunu, good save at an important time " (i.e., 0-0, 1-1-, 1-0 or whatever). And that's exactly what you want your keeper to be doing - making saves at important times in games.

[tetsujin1979]

Eleven clean sheets this season in the championship, that's joint-fifth with Max O'Leary, and two others
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023...p#Clean_sheets

[pineapple stu]

That's a stat that needs to be taken in context though - in how many of those games did he face only one or two shots on target for example? Take the run in Nov/Dec - 6 clean sheets in 11 games. But in that -

Millwall had one shot on target
WBA had two (one scored)
Huddersfield had two (one scored)
Bristol City had one
Cardiff had two
Watford had four (one scored)
Coventry had four (one scored)
Blackburn had four
QPR had two
Swansea had one
Plymouth had one (which was scored)

That's a decent enough run of form overall in fairness, but when you're only facing one or two shots a game, it does make it much easier to keep a clean sheet. And that doesn't track whether the shots were daisy-cutters or pile-drivers into the top corner (or, as in the Plymouth example, a goalkeeper blunder). And while he made a couple of very good saves in that run (can't remember who it was against when he somehow got a foot to a six-yard piledriver in a scramble from a corner for example), I think it also undermines the idea that Bazunu was making big saves regularly (every game, as JRG has claimed).

It's why PSxG is a much better metric; it rates keepers far more evenly across a division. It may explain why some Southampton fans on their forum are saying they'd like to see a move for Johanssen, the Rotherham keeper, for example. He's only kept four clean sheets though - does that mean he's much worse than Bazunu?

[Stuttgart88]

The lengths to which you'd go to undermine any hint of praise for this kid...

[pineapple stu]

I'm sorry for a bit of analysis on a stat which I don't think shows what tets intends it to show. And on a discussion forum too!

Won't do it again.

[tetsujin1979]

Then you should include the number of games where the other keepers faced a similar number of shots, and how many of them resulted in clean sheets