Third Tier Talk - A Championship Mk II

**culloty82** · 30/12/2022, 7:54 AM

Indeed, but both could also co-exist within the same integrated pyramid:

Level 1: Premier Division
Level 2: First Division
Level 3: As Yet Unnamed, but presumably Second Division (contains CK United, Kildare, and various current intermediate teams).
Level 4: Provincial Leagues (one-tier for now, but can be expanded later - other intermediate and junior teams from Munster, Leinster, and Connacht-Ulster, respectively).
Levels 5-10/12: County Leagues as currently constituted.

As in the A Championship previously, the bottom First Division team would face a promotion/relegation play-off against the Second Division champions (if the latter acquires a First Division licence, of course), and similarly the bottom three Second Division teams (no reason you couldn't have 16 teams there) would each play-off against the three provincial champions. Of course, the progression from county through provincial to national competitions should make applications for the LoI less daunting, but clubs would still have the option at each stage of declining promotion to the next level.

**Shinkicker** · 30/12/2022, 8:02 AM

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

You can bluster all you like, but it doesn't change my point that Strabane is hardly a "proper football town", like eg Sligo or Newry, or those other, nearer towns I mentioned.

Or perhaps you'd like to answer me this: What has Strabane ever contributed to 139 years of football in Ireland/NI?

(No hurry btw, I've got plenty of popcorn in as well...)

I played against a strabane club in the late 90's / early 00's and I thought they were Strabane athletic. However, back then it was a 12 team league and they were no great shake and facilities were terrible. Things have improved more recently eg, you don't have to walk 200 metres from the changing rooms to the pitch. I will also admit the playing surface has greatly improved too. There were also several clubs from the Derry and surrounding area. Players at one club this year were at another the next. Chasing success. There were also clubs from Belfast, Lurgan and other areas. When we played in the Derry area, usually the games were fairly competitive But when they had to travel to Belfast, most often it was a whitewash in our favour. The players would not travel. Now its a seven team league ALL from the Derry and surrounding area and the players still chase success or the most pounds. These clubs don't normally progress in the intermediate Cup when pitted against other leagues and that's a pointer to their standard. They play winter football and the league starts in December not in August or September like most other winter leagues. Remember to play intermediate football you don't have to be good you only need to have access to the correct facilities. If Strabane are so good why don't they join another intermediate league and test their worth.

**legendz** · 30/12/2022, 9:43 AM

1st Jul 2022
The Football Association of Ireland has today confirmed that the Under 14 National League for boys born in 2009 will commence in February 2023 in line with all other underage National League competitions.
The 2023 season will see National Leagues run at U14, U15, U17 and U19 age groups for boys and U17 and U19 age groups for girls.
We have also confirmed that there will be no Under 13 National League next season and we want to see League of Ireland Academies working hand in hand with their local Schoolboy/girls� Leagues and Clubs moving forward.

The third tier as a graduation for those from the youth leagues can be a "National League". It is the next logical step, if enough LoI second teams come on board. The youth leagues already have a good geographical spread. There is nothing stopping various current intermediate teams and various current district league teams from applying to join the youth national leagues.
If anyone is realistically looking to see where new LoI clubs are going to come from, the youth leagues are the best gauge.
The likes of Clare, Meath and Tipperary have not joined the youth leagues. Treaty are the standout option for Clare and North Tipperary. Waterford is the standout option for South Tipperary. Westmeath and Drogheda are the standout options for Meath.

**nigel-harps1954** · 30/12/2022, 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by legendz

Glin in West Limerick has a population of 576. Glin Rovers are currently second in the Desmond League Premier Division. If a club doesn't see professionalism as part of their current long term realistic ambitions, let them strive to be the best at elite recreational level.
People can support Glin Rovers and Treaty United? Both can coexist? People can volunteer to help Glin Rovers and also support Treaty United?

If Glin Rovers want to stay where they are, that would be entirely up to them. Realistically, a club that small, from a town that small, wouldn't expect to get promoted far enough to worry anyone. They may jump up the next level to a regional division, but facilities and financial capabilities would likely prevent them from going any further. That's exactly where the pyramid would step in to prevent them from becoming another Salthill Devon.

**EalingGreen** · 30/12/2022, 1:08 PM

Originally Posted by Shinkicker

I played against a strabane club in the late 90's / early 00's and I thought they were Strabane athletic. However, back then it was a 12 team league and they were no great shake and facilities were terrible. Things have improved more recently eg, you don't have to walk 200 metres from the changing rooms to the pitch. I will also admit the playing surface has greatly improved too. There were also several clubs from the Derry and surrounding area. Players at one club this year were at another the next. Chasing success. There were also clubs from Belfast, Lurgan and other areas. When we played in the Derry area, usually the games were fairly competitive But when they had to travel to Belfast, most often it was a whitewash in our favour. The players would not travel. Now its a seven team league ALL from the Derry and surrounding area and the players still chase success or the most pounds. These clubs don't normally progress in the intermediate Cup when pitted against other leagues and that's a pointer to their standard. They play winter football and the league starts in December not in August or September like most other winter leagues. Remember to play intermediate football you don't have to be good you only need to have access to the correct facilities. If Strabane are so good why don't they join another intermediate league and test their worth.

Thank you.

All of which reinforces my two main points, namely (a ) Strabane has never been particularly noted as a football hotbed, at least compared with eg another Nationalist border town like Newry; and (b ) that even in such an area, the NI pyramid offers the opportunity for a club like Athletic to "go for it", should they have the necessary vision and ambition that that requires.

And I might add that I have absolutely nothing against Strabane as a place, while I would be delighted if Athletic were to develop the game in another part of NI and offer an alternative to DCFC/FHFC (no offence) for football fans in the area to support.

**EatYerGreens** · 30/12/2022, 1:55 PM

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

In order to pass a significant change in the EPL for instance, it requires a 66% majority. In other words, the (so-called) Big Six cannot veto something which the other clubs want.

The equivalent in the SPL is that a 11-1 majority is needed. In other words, if the Old Firm don't like something, it doesn't pass.

Add to that the fact that the ineffably useless SFA (appropriate initials) are also in their pocket, and something needs to be done to shake up Scottish football, starting with Governance.

But how does all that make a regulator the answer ? Regulators - certainly in how they're used in these islands - tend to be a rather toothless paper tiger preferred by free-marketeer politicians who want to show that they're doing something about a problem/concern without actually altering the fundamentals of how that situation arose. I just don't see how one would be ntroduced in British football, nor how it would make any genuine difference if one was.

**EatYerGreens** · 30/12/2022, 2:00 PM

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

You can bluster all you like, but it doesn't change my point that Strabane is hardly a "proper football town", like eg Sligo or Newry, or those other, nearer towns I mentioned.

Or perhaps you'd like to answer me this: What has Strabane ever contributed to 139 years of football in Ireland/NI?

(No hurry btw, I've got plenty of popcorn in as well...)

Ahhh - see, now you've moved the goalposts (all puns ntended).

You originally said that Strabane was "not fertile ground for football". That is very different from the notion you're asserting now of it not being a 'proper football town' i.e, one where football is utterly dominant (and which you've put here in quotes, despite not mentioning the phrase in your original post).

The fact you've completely shifted your argument here is as good of an admisison as well get that your original point was wrong. Glad this pseudo-admission didn't get dragged out for as long as all the others took

**EalingGreen** · 30/12/2022, 2:33 PM

Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

Ahhh - see, now you've moved the goalposts (all puns ntended).

You originally said that Strabane was "not fertile ground for football". That is very different from the notion you're asserting now of it not being a 'proper football town' i.e, one where football is utterly dominant (and which you've put here in quotes, despite not mentioning the phrase in your original post).

The fact you've completely shifted your argument here is as good of an admisison as well get that your original point was wrong. Glad this pseudo-admission didn't get dragged out for as long as all the others took

The usual semantics, bluster, personalisation and disingenuity from you, I see.

But it still doesn't serve to deflect from my question, namely: "What has Strabane ever contributed to 139 years of football in Ireland/NI?"

No hurry in answering, still plenty of popcorn left...

**legendz** · 30/12/2022, 11:37 PM

Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954

If Glin Rovers want to stay where they are, that would be entirely up to them. Realistically, a club that small, from a town that small, wouldn't expect to get promoted far enough to worry anyone. They may jump up the next level to a regional division, but facilities and financial capabilities would likely prevent them from going any further. That's exactly where the pyramid would step in to prevent them from becoming another Salthill Devon.

Is there an example of a club currently being denied the opportunity of joining the youth national leagues or League of Ireland?
Mullingar imported an entire squad when they sought to join the LoI. Kerry's rise to the First Division has been as a result of progress through the youth pyramid.
A mature decision was taken last year that the First Division would get by with 9 clubs. There was no sticky plaster approach. Kerry went through a sensible process in applying to join the league. Hopefully if it works out, it will have set the template going forward.
If there is ever an appetite for LoI football in Mullingar, make an application to join the youth leagues and build from there. While the Kerry League approach has suited Kerry, maybe an Athlone v Mullingar, West v East rivalry will be best for the Westmeath area and neighbouring regions.
Fanad joined the A Championship. If the want to rival Finn Harps in the LoI, let them join.

**nigel-harps1954** · 31/12/2022, 9:33 AM

Originally Posted by legendz

Is there an example of a club currently being denied the opportunity of joining the youth national leagues or League of Ireland?
Mullingar imported an entire squad when they sought to join the LoI. Kerry's rise to the First Division has been as a result of progress through the youth pyramid.
A mature decision was taken last year that the First Division would get by with 9 clubs. There was no sticky plaster approach. Kerry went through a sensible process in applying to join the league. Hopefully if it works out, it will have set the template going forward.
If there is ever an appetite for LoI football in Mullingar, make an application to join the youth leagues and build from there. While the Kerry League approach has suited Kerry, maybe an Athlone v Mullingar, West v East rivalry will be best for the Westmeath area and neighbouring regions.
Fanad joined the A Championship. If the want to rival Finn Harps in the LoI, let them join.

You're away off an another unrelated tangent, rather than anything near the point.

There's several teams in the underage leagues that aren't affiliated to a LOI club. There are several clubs affiliated to LOI clubs that are part of the underage league.

None of that, however, makes any sort of a difference to the league structures now, or will make any difference to it in the future. Nor does any of that help to grow the league in any way beyond possibly adding another one or two teams to a closed structure league.

**pineapple stu** · 31/12/2022, 9:56 AM

Originally Posted by legendz

Is there an example of a club currently being denied the opportunity of joining the youth national leagues or League of Ireland?

Well Tralee were denied entry after the A Championship folded for reasons that were never disclosed. I think that decision even left the First Division with an odd number of teams. Salthill and Mervue were quietly kicked out of the league, which is effectively the same thing.

Is there an example of a club at present? Pat Sullivan might argue he's being denied a place with his Limerick team, denied a licence because his face didn't fit.

But the question we're trying to resolve here is why don't more clubs want to step up? Is it because there is no pyramid and no safety net, so what happened Tralee could happen them? Joining a league where every single club bar one (Bray) has subsequently either gone bust or withdrawn is a fairly big barrier to entry, don't you think?

A youth structure is not a pyramid; I don't know why you're confusing the two.

**EatYerGreens** · 31/12/2022, 2:49 PM

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

The usual semantics, bluster, personalisation and disingenuity from you, I see.

But it still doesn't serve to deflect from my question, namely: "What has Strabane ever contributed to 139 years of football in Ireland/NI?"

No hurry in answering, still plenty of popcorn left...

The question you're asking now is very different from the original point you made and got pulled up for. As you well know. You do realise that this stuff remains on the internet, so people can literally see what you said and how it's changed dramatically ?

Come back to the table when you can present a consistent point/argument without shifting all over the place in a panic when you get called out for talking unfounded

Enjoy that popcorn !

**EalingGreen** · 31/12/2022, 5:02 PM

Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

The question you're asking now is very different from the original point you made and got pulled up for. As you well know. You do realise that this stuff remains on the internet, so people can literally see what you said and how it's changed dramatically ?

Come back to the table when you can present a consistent point/argument without shifting all over the place in a panic when you get called out for talking unfounded

Enjoy that popcorn !

What I originally said was that Strabane is hardly what you might call "fertile football ground" [sic].

You attempted to refute that by pointing out that there are people in Strabane who follow football eg at DCFC or FHFC (no idea of numbers given, mind).

I never denied that, rather I was pointing out that whatever the level of interest in the game in the town, it has never translated into anything tangible.

Which is why I'm not aware of Strabane ever producing any notable clubs, players, managers, administrators, local leagues or stadia etc i.e any of the things that mark somewhere out as being what I call a "proper football town" like eg Sligo, Derry or Newry.

Now I don''t know why you seized upon this, perhaps some ancestral need to stick up for Strabane, or an irrestisbile urge to have a pop at me whenever you can? Both maybe?

Either way, I am perfectly happy for all of this to remain on the internet, for anyone sad enough to crawl through it to determine which of us has got a point, no matter how unimportant, and which of us is talking garbage.,

As for the future, who knows? Athletic may take advantage of the NIFL pyramid to advance to the next stage, and "Good Luck!" to them, I say - they probably have a better chance of that than I have of getting a straight answer to a straight question* from you.

* - In case you've forgotten, it was "What has Strabane ever contributed to 139 years of football in Ireland/NI?"

**legendz** · 01/01/2023, 2:30 AM

Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954

There's several teams in the underage leagues that aren't affiliated to a LOI club. There are several clubs affiliated to LOI clubs that are part of the underage league.

It is a positive that regions without LoI representation have added to the geographical spread of the youth national leagues?
If CK United, Kildare and other clubs who graduate from the youth leagues progress to a third tier level, the league will no longer be a closed shop. There will be clear pathway.
With 20 LoI clubs and 4 other regions represented in the youth leagues, the league might be nearing it's natural limit. The FAI are seeking government funding to improve LoI academies.

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Well Tralee were denied entry after the A Championship folded for reasons that were never disclosed. I think that decision even left the First Division with an odd number of teams. Salthill and Mervue were quietly kicked out of the league, which is effectively the same thing.

It was a terrible decision to fold the A Championship. The implementation of the youth leagues has been a positive development in recent years. Tralee could have joined the youth leagues if they wanted. When Tralee entered the A Championship, it was because agreement could not be reached on Kerry League entering.

**nigel-harps1954** · 01/01/2023, 10:35 AM

Originally Posted by legendz

It is a positive that regions without LoI representation have added to the geographical spread of the youth national leagues?
If CK United, Kildare and other clubs who graduate from the youth leagues progress to a third tier level, the league will no longer be a closed shop. There will be clear pathway.
With 20 LoI clubs and 4 other regions represented in the youth leagues, the league might be nearing it's natural limit. The FAI are seeking government funding to improve LoI academies..

That's still a closed shop, no matter what way you paint it.

**legendz** · 02/01/2023, 3:13 AM

Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954

That's still a closed shop, no matter what way you paint it.

The Northern Irish League and the Scottish League had clubs in the past who were campaigning for inclusion. A closed shop.
The time Mullingar were campaigning to join the League of Ireland, a closed shop as well.
The A Championship brought about an open shop. The shut down of the A Championship more or less brought a return of a closed shop. For a few years, expressions of interest were welcome. The youth leagues have been an open shop, within reason.
A third tier licence should be far more achievable than a First Division licence, with less hurdles to negotiate. It should give clubs an opportunity to build.

**pineapple stu** · 02/01/2023, 8:44 AM

I mean, literally the point of this is that the IL and Scottish leagues have improved their structure with their recent changes, but you're trying to use that to knock them?

The problem with the A Championship (or proposed third tier) is that there's no filter, so any club can just jump to the third tier if they're suitable or not. Same as how Cabo magically appeared in the second tier even though they patently weren't set up for it. Ditto Dublin City.

And other clubs will have seen what happened Tralee and will feel it's too much of a risk to take and so won't join, because that risk is still there

The problem with your posts is that you keep ignoring others' arguments (like when I asked you how a youth league was a pyramid) and repeating your own nonsense in different words

**A N Mouse** · 02/01/2023, 10:18 AM

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

What I originally said was that Strabane is hardly what you might call "fertile football ground" [sic].

You attempted to refute that by pointing out that there are people in Strabane who follow football eg at DCFC or FHFC (no idea of numbers given, mind).

I never denied that, rather I was pointing out that whatever the level of interest in the game in the town, it has never translated into anything tangible.

Which is why I'm not aware of Strabane ever producing any notable clubs, players, managers, administrators, local leagues or stadia etc i.e any of the things that mark somewhere out as being what I call a "proper football town" like eg Sligo, Derry or Newry.

Now I don''t know why you seized upon this, perhaps some ancestral need to stick up for Strabane, or an irrestisbile urge to have a pop at me whenever you can? Both maybe?

Either way, I am perfectly happy for all of this to remain on the internet, for anyone sad enough to crawl through it to determine which of us has got a point, no matter how unimportant, and which of us is talking garbage.,

As for the future, who knows? Athletic may take advantage of the NIFL pyramid to advance to the next stage, and "Good Luck!" to them, I say - they probably have a better chance of that than I have of getting a straight answer to a straight question* from you.

I'll skip any issue with whatever point you were trying to make. However this

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

* - In case you've forgotten, it was "What has Strabane ever contributed to 139 years of football in Ireland/NI?"

is pish. And shouldn't be used to justify or defend anything else.

I could ask what has sandy row ever done for Irish cricket?

But they're not the same thing are they? Because the first one isn't a genuine question. It's an attitude. It's the state of football on this island in one question.

It's refusing to play fixtures in Dublin.

It's battering teams off the pitch, and out of the league, ending promising careers in the process.

It's supporters from a third team outnumbering those from the two competing teams at a cup final.

It's refusing to let teams play European fixtures at home.

It's refusing to play at a venue, despite police advice.

It's forcing teams to play home fixtures to two men and a dog miles from home.

It's creating a reason to refuse a club re-entry to the league.

It's allowing teams into the league, despite their ground being underwater more often than Strabane.

It's refusing teams entry to the league on merit, on same same basis as previous questionable refusals.

It's allowing teams with uninsurable grounds to continue playing at grounds which multiple clubs had previously been refused entry based on nominating that as their home.

You can not without hint of irony say that, and then be front and centre giving out about some kid from Strabane not wanting to represent a Belfast based organisation.

The Belfast and District League, for all the movement in the right direction and the shiny new name, is still a leopard.

**legendz** · 02/01/2023, 1:13 PM

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

I mean, literally the point of this is that the IL and Scottish leagues have improved their structure with their recent changes, but you're trying to use that to knock them?

The problem with the A Championship (or proposed third tier) is that there's no filter, so any club can just jump to the third tier if they're suitable or not. Same as how Cabo magically appeared in the second tier even though they patently weren't set up for it. Ditto Dublin City.

And other clubs will have seen what happened Tralee and will feel it's too much of a risk to take and so won't join, because that risk is still there

The problem with your posts is that you keep ignoring others' arguments (like when I asked you how a youth league was a pyramid) and repeating your own nonsense in different words

The IL and Scottish League had teams knocking on the door seeking to get in. The LoI doesn't have clubs knocking on the door claiming they are excluded. A completely different situation.
The Third Tier should be an improvement on the A Championship. The Third Tier should just be an extension of what has worked well in the youth leagues. Clubs/entities should not be allowed jump in unless they have already been integrated in as part of the youth leagues.
Tralee and the likes joining the A Championship was a poor foundation. The youth leagues built up in recent years is a strong foundation. The installation of a Third Tier between the youth leagues and LoI level is a natural development.
Clubs will have seen Kerry progress through the youth leagues to the First Division. If a club successfully joins the youth leagues and a Third Tier is established, they should have far more confidence their being less risk than was the case in the A Championship.

**EalingGreen** · 02/01/2023, 1:13 PM