Third Tier Talk - A Championship Mk II

[EatYerGreens]

Tbh, I still can't get my head round whether Sevco are just the old club in a new wrapper, or a brand new entity entirely. But if it were the latter, then properly speaking they should have been wound up and a new, phoenix club required to start again right at the very bottom in eg the Glasgow & District League Division 3 (orwhatever) like eg Bury FC have had to do in England. But of course whatever the rights and wrongs of the case, there is no way the SFA would ever have countenanced that latter outcome.

Scotland's pyramid at that time stopped at League 2 - which is why Rangers were asked to start again at that level. Had it all happened a few ywars later then there would have been a deeper pyramid structure, necessitating them to start even further down.

Which I guess is the 'prolonging the pain' point.

[legendz]

You don't agree with relegation?

What a bizarre thing not to agree with

"We were here first, so we must be here forever more" is it, then? "And if need be, we will draw up the ladder behind us, in case any newcomers shouild come along to threaten us. You know, by playing better football and drawing bigger crowds."

No drawing up the ladder. The proposed third tier can expanded to a fourth tier if needed. Promotion/relegation from the First Division to the third tier. If a fourth tier is installed, promotion/relegation as well. While LoI second teams probably won't be admitted to the First Division, if the third tier expanded to a fourth tier, LoI second teams might be tested in a promotion/relegation environment.
If a club decides to join elite ranks and they qualify for an elite licence, they would transition from recreational level to elite level.

[Poor Student]

If Glasgow Rangers werent relegated 4 tiers down to the bottom of the Scottish pyramid when they reformed - they might have recovered sooner? They spent 4 years (I think?) having to play semi-pro outfits. But yes, I think going down a tier can actually help the process.

They weren't relegated. They ceased to exist and a new entity applied for the vacancy they left and were admitted to the league. RSSF probably best summarise the situation stating: "In 2012, Rangers were dissolved, after which a homonymous club was founded, which was admitted to the fourth league level and won its first championship in 2021; that title is not included here."

[culloty82]

That's all rather nitpicking, akin to saying Fiorentina and Napoli only have histories less than twenty years old, which technically happened when they went bust, before they were eventually able to repurchase the legal and historical rights to the continuity club. Similarly, would anyone really say that Middlesbrough are less than forty years old, as its holding company collapsed in 1986, but the football club itself escaped without consequences to its Football League status?

[EalingGreen]

Scotland's pyramid at that time stopped at League 2 - which is why Rangers were asked to start again at that level. Had it all happened a few ywars later then there would have been a deeper pyramid structure, necessitating them to start even further down.

But if they were a brand new club (unsure?), then why were they allowed membership of the Scottish league at any level?

If I were to start up a new club in Glasgow, they'd have to start in whatever league would have them, at whatever level. They certainly couldn't expect to be invited to join a Pro-/Semi-pro League like the SFL.

Which is why eg Bury had to start at the 10th(?) tier in England, likewise eg FC United of Manchester etc.

[Poor Student]

That's all rather nitpicking, akin to saying Fiorentina and Napoli only have histories less than twenty years old, which technically happened when they went bust, before they were eventually able to repurchase the legal and historical rights to the continuity club. Similarly, would anyone really say that Middlesbrough are less than forty years old, as its holding company collapsed in 1986, but the football club itself escaped without consequences to its Football League status?

I can't speak to every instance but it's very clear that Rangers were liquidated, ceased to exist and a phoenix entity had to apply for the vacant place left in the league by Rangers' liquidation.

[pineapple stu]

But if they were a brand new club (unsure?), then why were they allowed membership of the Scottish league at any level?

If I were to start up a new club in Glasgow, they'd have to start in whatever league would have them, at whatever level. They certainly couldn't expect to be invited to join a Pro-/Semi-pro League like the SFL.

Which is why eg Bury had to start at the 10th(?) tier in England, likewise eg FC United of Manchester etc.

The Scottish pyramid then ended at step 4. There was no link between it and the Highland/Lowland leagues. Any vacancies - through expansion or teams such as Clydebank folding - were filled by application.

So Rangers applied and were accepted. Seems reasonable.

Bury were also accepted at the highest league with a vacancy

[EalingGreen]

No drawing up the ladder. The proposed third tier can expanded to a fourth tier if needed. Promotion/relegation from the First Division to the third tier. If a fourth tier is installed, promotion/relegation as well. While LoI second teams probably won't be admitted to the First Division, if the third tier expanded to a fourth tier, LoI second teams might be tested in a promotion/relegation environment.
If a club decides to join elite ranks and they qualify for an elite licence, they would transition from recreational level to elite level.

No offence, but that is completely arse-about-face.

The whole point about a pyramid is that there step from one level to the next should not be so steep as to be incapable of being climbed. (Ditto, the descent should not be so steep that you risk falling down)

And with your proposal to build from the top down, it means clubs forming the 3rd tier, whether they be brand new clubs (eg Sporting Fingal); existing clubs which are suddenly elevated (eg Cabinteely); or a former Youth team (eg Kerry FC), there is no guarantee they'll be able to compete even at that level, never mind go on to be an established Premier or FD club for the long haul.
And even if one or two should manage it (maybe Kerry?), there is still no regular "production line" to provide replacement clubs for those Senior clubs which may fall upon hard times.

Instead you need to build from the bottom up i.e. organise your Junior clubs into competitive local leagues and once established, take the best of them (playing standards, facilities, resources, finances, support etc) and form them into Internediate, regional leagues.

And once these are established, with standards being progessively raised on all levels, the plan should be to have full P&R from Junior to Intermediate to Senior level available to all clubs which can properly manage it, and want* it.

This has a further salutary effect on Senior clubs, who will now know that if they mismanage their affairs (dash for silverware?), they can't just go bust, walk away from as much debt as they can, and then ask to start again in the First Division (or a 3rd tier), because they know that the LOI, in desperate need of numbers, could never refuse them a place.

* - Not all will, of course.

[EalingGreen]

The Scottish pyramid then ended at step 4. There was no link between it and the Highland/Lowland leagues. Any vacancies - through expansion or teams such as Clydebank folding - were filled by application.

So Rangers applied and were accepted. Seems reasonable.

Bury were also accepted at the highest league with a vacancy

Maybe you are right about Rangers, but with Bury, they had to scratch around to find a league which would accept them and opted to join the one at the highest level. There were not given any particular preference just because they were founded from the ashes of an EFL club. (Former FA Cup winner, too!)

Perhaps a better example is Newry City AFC who, though still operating from the Showgrounds, had to accept the best they could get after folding from the IL i.e. the Intermediate B Division of the Mid-Ulster Football League i.e. Junior football: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newry_City_A.F.C.

[pineapple stu]

Maybe you are right about Rangers, but with Bury, they had to scratch around to find a league which would accept them and opted to join the one at the highest level. There were not given any particular preference just because they were founded from the ashes of an EFL club. (Former FA Cup winner, too!)

I think they're all the same examples - Rangers, Bury and Newry all found the best they could get after folding. I suppose Waterford/Cork/Derry/etc all did the same here - but that was a much lesser punishment in their cases. It would be interesting to see what would happen Rangers if they were to go bust today given the Scottish pyramid is now pretty much fully integrated (own below the Highland/Lowland league even)

You mention a hypothetical new club you might form in Glasgow - they could have applied for that gap too. But they're clearly not as good an applicant as Rangers, so wouldn't expect to be accepted.

Interestingly, Rangers' punishment was worse than Airdrie (former Scottish Cup winners) when they went bust in 2002, having finished runners-up in the second tier - they were able to buy Clydebank, who had gone bust in the third tier, and so they only dropped one division. Gretna were elected to fill the other league space, having not even been playing in Scottish football before then. Gretna had actually beaten Airdrie to election, but Airdrie had a second bite of the cherry which benefitted them.

[EalingGreen]

You mention a hypothetical new club you might form in Glasgow - they could have applied for that gap too. But they're clearly not as good an applicant as Rangers, so wouldn't expect to be accepted.

"Clearly not as good an applicant as..."?

You mean, not as good as a club which for years blatantly and knowingly broke the League's rules to sign players they couldn't otherwise afford, win trophies they would never otherwise have won and so qualify for European riches which might have gone to someone else?

And then whe it all went tits up, brazenly walked away, leaving a mountain of debt to a myraid of creditors, including members of the football family and small, local businesses?

Or are you saying that there was NO other club with suitable facilities and resources etc, but with none of the above on their "charge sheet", who also would have liked to join the SFL at that time?

Interestingly, Rangers' punishment was worse than Airdrie (former Scottish Cup winners) when they went bust in 2002, having finished runners-up in the second tier - they were able to buy Clydebank, who had gone bust in the third tier, and so they only dropped one division. Gretna were elected to fill the other league space, having not even been playing in Scottish football before then. Gretna had actually beaten Airdrie to election, but Airdrie had a second bite of the cherry which benefitted them.

Interesting, certainly, but even a greater "wrong" in one instance does not then make a "right" in another.

Anyhow, this is all getting away from the topic (sorry), other than that it demonstrates a major advantage of a true pyramid system in reinforcing the concept of Moral Hazard in the administration of the game.

[pineapple stu]

"Clearly not as good an applicant as..."?

You mean, not as good as a club which for years blatantly and knowingly broke the League's rules to sign players they couldn't otherwise afford, win trophies they would never otherwise have won and so qualify for European riches which might have gone to someone else?

And then whe it all went tits up, brazenly walked away, leaving a mountain of debt to a myraid of creditors, including members of the football family and small, local businesses?

Absolutely. And the subsequent decade has shown why Rangers bring more to Scottish football than your hypothetical new entity.

The application is based on the future potential, not the past transgressions.

I do agree with you though that one of the benefits of a pyramid is in helping mitigate against the sort of financial shenanigans we've seen here alright. There's a question, as pyramids grow and increasingly go from top to bottom, as to how far down the ranks a club should be dumped - would it make sense for Manchester United to be dumped down to parks football for example, if they were to go bust? Though arguably I guess that's why there's so much effort goes into saving clubs and at least getting creditors onboard with a few p in the £

[EalingGreen]

Absolutely. And the subsequent decade has shown why Rangers bring more to Scottish football than your hypothetical new entity.

The application is based on the future potential, not the past transgressions.

"Offer more" - including the possibility of them (or some other club) doing it again.

Anyhow, leave my hypothetical new club out if it, but back in those pre-pyramid days was there not eg a Cove Rangers or a Kelty Hearts waiting in the wings, the former now comfortable in the Championship, the latter in League One? On a moral, even legal, if not financial basis, surely someone like that would had a better case to be voted in to fill the vacancy (assuming Sevco is a brand new entity, that is)

I do agree with you though that one of the benefits of a pyramid is in helping mitigate against the sort of financial shenanigans we've seen here alright. There's a question, as pyramids grow and increasingly go from top to bottom, as to how far down the ranks a club should be dumped - would it make sense for Manchester United to be dumped down to parks football for example, if they were to go bust? Though arguably I guess that's why there's so much effort goes into saving clubs and at least getting creditors onboard with a few p in the £

Regarding your question, it all depends whether MU had gone into Administration, or undergone Bankruptcy. If it is the former, then a clear scale of punishment needs to be set out in advance, from financial penalties, to points deductions, to automatic relegation etc, as eg La Liga has done.

But if it is the latter, then that's it - MU will, like Monty Python's parrot, have ceased to exist. Meaning there could be no automatic re-entry even at a mid-level for any new phoenix club, even one calling itself "Manchester United 2023 FC", and playing in red and white at Old Trafford, with Erik Ten Haag as their boss. Any such club should have to start again at the bottom and work their way up, just like any other new club.

[Poor Student]

I think they're all the same examples - Rangers, Bury and Newry all found the best they could get after folding. I suppose Waterford/Cork/Derry/etc all did the same here - but that was a much lesser punishment in their cases. It would be interesting to see what would happen Rangers if they were to go bust today given the Scottish pyramid is now pretty much fully integrated (own below the Highland/Lowland league even)

You mention a hypothetical new club you might form in Glasgow - they could have applied for that gap too. But they're clearly not as good an applicant as Rangers, so wouldn't expect to be accepted.

Interestingly, Rangers' punishment was worse than Airdrie (former Scottish Cup winners) when they went bust in 2002, having finished runners-up in the second tier - they were able to buy Clydebank, who had gone bust in the third tier, and so they only dropped one division. Gretna were elected to fill the other league space, having not even been playing in Scottish football before then. Gretna had actually beaten Airdrie to election, but Airdrie had a second bite of the cherry which benefitted them.

The reason for the differing outcomes was that neither were punished. Both clubs died. In one instance Clydebank were rebranded to Airdre United (not Airdrieonians until 2013). In the other instance a new entity took the place of the dead Rangers. The basket of assets that one might argue constitute either club were not purchased from the liquidating holding company in time for the licensing deadline for the next season hence the place was entirely lost.

[pineapple stu]

"Offer more" - including the possibility of them (or some other club) doing it again.

Actually, statistically I would say Rangers would be less likely to go bankrupt than a new or a small club. It's very rare for a club of that size to go under entirely. And when you weigh that against the huge financial benefit Rangers bring to the league, then they're obviously a better option for a new club than a Highland league team or a random new club

But regardless, as I say, an application to join should be judged on future potential. The penalty for bad financial behaviour has been enacted and is now in the past.

[Poor Student]

Actually, statistically I would say Rangers would be less likely to go bankrupt than a new or a small club. It's very rare for a club of that size to go under entirely. And when you weigh that against the huge financial benefit Rangers bring to the league, then they're obviously a better option for a new club than a Highland league team or a random new club

You'd think that but they've tried to give it a good go. They blew a £50m share issue trying to get promoted to the top flight overpaying aged veterans and have continued overspending their entire existence funded by a cycle of director loans converted to equity and are flying very close to the sun with Financial Fair Play rules and are on UEFA's watchlist. If you allow a new entity to masquerade as the old one then you risk recurrence of the same profligate practices rearing their ugly head again.

[pineapple stu]

Ha! Fair point. I'm assuming there's a bit of a jump between being in financial trouble (common enough sadly) and actually going under (very rare for a big club)

[legendz]

No offence, but that is completely arse-about-face.

The whole point about a pyramid is that there step from one level to the next should not be so steep as to be incapable of being climbed. (Ditto, the descent should not be so steep that you risk falling down)

And with your proposal to build from the top down, it means clubs forming the 3rd tier, whether they be brand new clubs (eg Sporting Fingal); existing clubs which are suddenly elevated (eg Cabinteely); or a former Youth team (eg Kerry FC), there is no guarantee they'll be able to compete even at that level, never mind go on to be an established Premier or FD club for the long haul.
And even if one or two should manage it (maybe Kerry?), there is still no regular "production line" to provide replacement clubs for those Senior clubs which may fall upon hard times.

Instead you need to build from the bottom up i.e. organise your Junior clubs into competitive local leagues and once established, take the best of them (playing standards, facilities, resources, finances, support etc) and form them into Internediate, regional leagues.

And once these are established, with standards being progessively raised on all levels, the plan should be to have full P&R from Junior to Intermediate to Senior level available to all clubs which can properly manage it, and want* it.

This has a further salutary effect on Senior clubs, who will now know that if they mismanage their affairs (dash for silverware?), they can't just go bust, walk away from as much debt as they can, and then ask to start again in the First Division (or a 3rd tier), because they know that the LOI, in desperate need of numbers, could never refuse them a place.

* - Not all will, of course.

If CK United and Kildare join a third tier, that'll be two clubs in line for an LoI vacancy, were one to arise. There would of course be an expectation of at least a relegation/promotion playoff between the First Division and the Third Tier.
The pyramid you advocate seems more about quantity of clubs than attaining professionalism. Tralee has a population of 25000 and Kerry has a population of 150000. 150000 is a greater catchment area for professional status to be attainable. 1 club competing at elite level. Many clubs competing at recreational level.
For this reason I suggest a pyramid at elite level and a pyramid at recreational level.
With all the talk of pyramids, noone is asking for a champions cup for district league champions. Getting these clubs playing at a higher level would be a starting point.

[EalingGreen]

If CK United and Kildare...

"If"

... join a third tier, that'll be two clubs in line for an LoI vacancy, were one to arise. There would of course be an expectation of at least a relegation/promotion playoff between the First Division and the Third Tier.

Who will they play in this 3rd tier? Each other? And even if you gather up another 8(?) teams from somewhere, how/when will any be capable of competing in the FD? How would those others even provide the competiton needed to make CK and Kildare able to compete eventually at FD level, never mind the PD? (Such an ambtion should be integral to every participant, even if only a small minority may ever actually achieve it).

... that'll be two clubs in line for an LoI vacancy, were one to arise. There would of course be an expectation of at least a relegation/promotion playoff between the First Division and the Third Tier.

So what happens to a (semi-pro) team which gets relegated from the FD to the 3rd tier? You know, going from crowds of 500-1000, to maybe half that? Unless they come straight back up, how would eg an Athlone, Bray or Cobh manage at that level, considering how hard they're finding it in their present level?

The pyramid you advocate seems more about quantity of clubs than attaining professionalism.

How many registered adult mens football clubs are there in ROI? Maybe 4k? (Pure guess!)

What a true pyramid does is organises them in a series of leagues at an appropriate level for their ability and resources. The vast majority will never attain Internediate status, never mind Senior Status, or even want it.

But given the right encouragement and set-up, there must be some who will want to go for it. However, they need to do this one step at a time (hence a pyramid), rather than suddenly being elevated to a level beyond their ability to compete (eg Monaghan or Cabo).

And so what if it takes 20 years or more for maybe 3 or 4 of these clubs to achieve genuine Senior status, on a semi-pro level at least? That is merely an argument for starting the process now, rather than avoiding the issue by magicing up some fanciful 3rd tier as a sticking plaster. We know the ROI has a growing, wealthy population of 5m which is generally interested in football, yet the game cannot exploit this to sustain competitive domestic football at all levels the way comparable countries like eg Scotland or Denmark do,

Tralee has a population of 25000 and Kerry has a population of 150000. 150000 is a greater catchment area for professional status to be attainable. 1 club competing at elite level. Many clubs competing at recreational level.

If rather smaller places like Cobh, Sligo, Ballybofey or Longford can sustain Senior clubs, then Tralee should be quite capable of it on its own, without needing to draw upon support from the rest of the County. Of course, becoming the "County team" would be nice, but unless they are consistently successful on the field, what realistic hope is there for Kerry FC to capitalise on the wider region? You will know this incomparably better than me, but it is a very widespread, rural county, with a rich GAA heritage but no great footballing tradition to speak of.

Good luck to Kerry FC, they might pull it off, but even if they should, that still only gets the LOI back to a mere 20 Senior clubs, with still no sign of a genuine supporting pyramid beneath providing for future growth.

Meanwhile, from amongst the 4k(?) established clubs already in more tradtional, urbanised, football heartlands than Kerry, there surely must be a dozen or two clubs who might aspire to Senior football some time in the future, were they only given the encouragement and structure within which to achieve it.

For this reason I suggest a pyramid at elite level and a pyramid at recreational level.
With all the talk of pyramids, noone is asking for a champions cup for district league champions. Getting these clubs playing at a higher level would be a starting point.

Two pyramids when you can't establish even one? Sorry, but that is insane!

For the whole point about a genuine pyramid is that the teams at the very top will be "elite" (Senior), the clubs at the bottom will be "recreational" (Junior), while the clubs in beween will be, well, in between (Intermediate). Meaning that as individual clubs prosper or decline, as clubs tend to do over time, they will always find a level suitable to their status.

All of which should encourage an upgrade of standards both on and off the field, thereby exploiting the interest there is in football generally thoughout the country, for the betterment of the domestic game overall.

[culloty82]

It was the A Championship, imperfect though that structure was, that kept Cobh in existence at the beginning of the last decade, and when the decision was made to abolish it, both they and Tralee were then promptly frozen out of the First Division, though Ramblers then reapplied the following year, and were then accepted, so they already know the experience of falling into a third tier.

Of course Kerry could yet prove an expensive failure (though organisational naivety, as much if not more than a question of potential support, could play a role there), and some counties are unlikely to ever join the League, such as Laois, Offaly, Clare and Meath, but the next priority when it comes to new entrants would seem to lie in reviving areas that formerly had LoI clubs, and thus a support base to tap into, particularly where they have teams active at underage level, rather than saturating divisions with Leinster Senior League sides.