Debate - Future of Youth Development in Irish Football

[nigel-harps1954]

As regards the National underage leagues, they are clearly a good idea, allowing the best youngsters in the country to play against others of a similar level consistently and take advantage of the resources of the League of Ireland Clubs. The local schoolboys teams shouldn't be allowed to undermine this to protect narrow interests. However, there should be a way to accommodate some of the more successful schoolboy clubs by allowing them to participate in an expanded league (as St Kevins Boys have been allowed to). The geographical grouping is a good idea as it cuts costs and standalone schoolboys teams should receive support to participate.

St Kevins are only in the under-15s league for this season past. They're gone from it now, and rightly so. None of these academies should be allowed in.

Geographical grouping is only good to a certain extent. I think it should just be a North/South as opposed to four groups, and I believe that's the way it's going from next season. It's hardly elite competition if the elite players only meet in the semi finals.

The only ones who don't like the idea of the underage national leagues are the schoolboys clubs who fear missing out on the big bucks shipping off players to England at 16.

[tetsujin1979]

Read this yesterday in the Examiner: Why birthdays are one of the big problems affecting Irish soccer

Basically, that players born in the last quarter of the year (October-December) are the least likely to get international caps. However, while I think there is a correlation between the month of your birth and your chances of playing at international level, there's a few flaws in their argument

• The use of summer soccer to assign a "quarter" to Irish-born players, and a different quarter to UK-born players ignores that the summer season in Ireland started in 2003, so players from before that year would have played the same season as UK-born players.
• They only use the squad from the play offs to back up the point - which is a tiny sample size

Bearing that in mind, I did some research in the same area, based around the players who have been capped by Martin O'Neill. You can read the results here: Are Birthdays Really Important?

There's some slightly different conclusions to what was reached in the Examiner's article. Basically, there needs to be more research done.

[samhaydenjr]

Read this yesterday in the Examiner: Why birthdays are one of the big problems affecting Irish soccer

Basically, that players born in the last quarter of the year (October-December) are the least likely to get international caps. However, while I think there is a correlation between the month of your birth and your chances of playing at international level, there's a few flaws in their argument

• The use of summer soccer to assign a "quarter" to Irish-born players, and a different quarter to UK-born players ignores that the summer season in Ireland started in 2003, so players from before that year would have played the same season as UK-born players.
• They only use the squad from the play offs to back up the point - which is a tiny sample size

Bearing that in mind, I did some research in the same area, based around the players who have been capped by Martin O'Neill. You can read the results here: Are Birthdays Really Important?

There's some slightly different conclusions to what was reached in the Examiner's article. Basically, there needs to be more research done.

I actually started thinking about this a few weeks ago when I was looking at our up-and-coming strikers because it's really pronounced there with the following dates of birth among our most promising talents: Glen McAuley - February 24; Adam Idah-March 11; Aaron Connolly - January 28; Jonathan Afolabi - January 14; Rowan Roache - February 9; Gerry McDonagh - February 14; RYan Cassidy - March 2; Michael Obafemi is an exception, born on July 6, as is Ronan Hale, September 8. I see your point about the research not being definitive but, intuitively, it does make sense that underage teams in an environment that is overly focused on winning trophies now might have a preference for players who would be the oldest in their qualifying age range, thus leading to a lack of opportunities for those at the tail end of that age range. And as other, bigger, countries have started acting to address this issue, this would indicate that they have done more research on relative age issues in football and that we should look at what actions they have taken and see can we apply these solutions. So perhaps it's no harm that this is being spoken about as an area that could be looked at in an effort to broaden the pool of talent, especially given the tendency of our schoolboys' clubs to focus on results and trophies that has been spoken about in this debate.

[Kingdom]

intuitively, it does make sense that underage teams in an environment that is overly focused on winning trophies now might have a preference for players who would be the oldest in their qualifying age range, thus leading to a lack of opportunities for those at the tail end of that age range

I "coach" a team at under 12 level where the age group is contained to the calendar year you were born, and we play in a calendar year season. I played in an era where you played in an age group if you were born after August. I much prefer the current system.

It's a huge problem, but it's a huge problem that nobody will ever be able to resolve. It's tough on the kids who are born towards the end of the year, but genetics play as big a part as anything. We have a group of 12 kids. The biggest and strongest three lads are both January-born and both in a class year ahead of everyone else in school. Two of them are much more mature on and off the pitch than the rest.

The 3 smallest - and they are the smallest in the league - all were born in December. However, the three of them are the most technical players we have, and are undroppable. They all represent their league. Two of them have played at a higher level and dropped back because they weren't athletic enough.

We have no non-ethnic Irish players in our squad, however most teams we play against have a few, and generally speaking the stereotype rings true: the kids of African descent are physically miles ahead of the children of Gaelic descent. I have no shame in saying it, there are two teams that we play, when we play them, I have to pick a side based as much on the physical as the technical, otherwise we lose - plain and simple.

I have gotten to know a few lads here off-forum, and they'll back up my post when I say I am big believer of football first, but sometimes you have to be pragmatic too. I read an online piece about a chap running a Bayern clinic (essentially) in Chicago, where the focus is all about player development and not winning. There is a limit to that too.

It's what I keep drumming into our kids, if you show that you're willing to work on your technique and you bust a gut, then eventually things will even out for you. I'm not, and my club is not, win-at-all-costs merchants. we know we're going to lose a sizeable number of our kids to rugby in 2 years time. So we know that we've got to develop the kids that we have to the best of their ability now. So the small guy who will simply be run over or out-strode needs to be taught how to play the pitch, or to use the size of the pitch as a tool to win, not a tool to lose, until such a time that he's not beaten by the size of his own body, or has developed his game to a point where he can counteract those deficiencies.

Sometimes genetics will get in your way. My wife is a midget. I'm average height; our son is never going to be Shaq. If I think of the players who became professional from my age group of schoolboys, a significant portion would not have been considered "pro-material" and made the move significantly later than a few players that were lauded from baby years. Of those who went early, very few made the breakthrough, whereas the later developers lasted a full career. The extra inch or three gained between end of u14's and end of under 16's was colossal.

This is not a new phenomenon btw.

[tetsujin1979]

Been thinking about this a bit more, is it unreasonable to assume that players born in Ireland before 1993 would not have gone through the underage setup playing summer soccer? They would have been ten in 2003, when the summer season was introduced, and would have trained in that setup from then on.
If that is the case, then Alan Browne (b. 15th April 1995) and Sean Maguire (b. 1st May 1995) are the only internationals thus far to have come through the current system, which invalidates the findings of the Examiner even further.
Shane Long, Kevin Doyle, and Wes Hoolahan would have played summer soccer, but did not train in that system as youth players, or "reared in Ireland" as the Examiner has designated players in their article

[Charlie Darwin]

Been thinking about this a bit more, is it unreasonable to assume that players born in Ireland before 1993 would not gone through the underage setup playing summer soccer? They would have been ten in 2003, when the summer season was introduced, and would have trained in that setup from then on.
If that is the case, then Alan Browne (b. 15th April 1995) and Sean Maguire (b. 1st May 1995) are the only internationals thus far to have come through the current system, which invalidates the findings of the Examiner even further.
Shane Long, Kevin Doyle, and Wes Hoolahan would have played summer soccer, but did not train in that system as youth players, or "reared in Ireland" as the Examiner has designated players in their article

Not even that - the u19 league was a winter league when Browne played in it. Maguire was only involved in the Waterford team when he was 15 or 16 so he'd be the only tenuous link.

[tetsujin1979]

Not even that - the u19 league was a winter league when Browne played in it. Maguire was only involved in the Waterford team when he was 15 or 16 so he'd be the only tenuous link.

Bearing this in mind, I've assigned a quarter to players based on the month of their birth again, with some different results: http://irish-abroad.appspot.com/Blog...38409558467271

[BonnieShels]

This cropped up within NZ rugby at youth level and you can imagine how genetics can play havoc there with the way certain positions work.

The solution was to grade the size of the players rather than strictly by age, so that the smaller lads when they do grow eventually, can get stuck back in. But it also stops those larger lads mowing them over etc.

---

Bearing this in mind, I've assigned a quarter to players based on the month of their birth again, with some different results: http://irish-abroad.appspot.com/Blog...38409558467271

That's really interesting Tets.

[liamoo11]

This cropped up within NZ rugby at youth level and you can imagine how genetics can play havoc there with the way certain positions work.

The solution was to grade the size of the players rather than strictly by age, so that the smaller lads when they do grow eventually, can get stuck back in. But it also stops those larger lads mowing them over etc.

---



That's really interesting Tets.

problem with that is it ignores the social and emotional development of kids so you get a 10 year old and a 12 year old who are matched physically and put in same team but the 2 year difference socially and emotionally is ignored and leads to lads dropping out of sport because they dont enjoy the social side as they are not playing with their peers as in kids same age ,same class in school etc. its a very narrow view on sport all about physical attributes and developing footballers not developing people. rugby has nothing to teach football about player development or welfare thats for sure

[BonnieShels]

Cmon, I'm hardly extolling the virtues of rugby and its clearly abysmal record on welfare. What I was merely getting at was that there are other ways than just picking these cut offs. I know a line has to be drawn somewhere but there are always other ways.

It was one that always stuck with me given it was the NZRU that implemented it.

[tetsujin1979]

interview with schoolboy coach John Bolger on the42: http://www.the42.ie/john-bolger-inte...08660-Mar2018/

[tetsujin1979]

FAI overhaul leaves irate schoolboy clubs counting cost: https://www.independent.ie/sport/soc...-36855110.html

[sbgawa]

You know the best interests of kids are being served by the fai when the slave traders are complaining about not getting enough money for sending 15 year olds over to England with 100 to 1 shot at success

[Stuttgart88]

That was my reaction too. Slave traders maybe bit harsh but if their biggest gripe is that their business model is affected then that's OK with me. I know it's a cliche but the pyramid has to be functioning well at all levels and with seamless transition from one layer to the next. That's much more the case now than it has been. Still room for improvement and the schoolboy clubs can still play a leading role. FAI funding should be available to help. The public pursestrings should be opened too, especially as it'd be fulfilling a social good - avoiding unnecessary and risky emigration of teenage footballers.

[tetsujin1979]

Ciaran Masterson (Conor Masterson's father) was on Off The Ball last night talking about the Friendship Cup, a tournament running in Abbotstown over the long weekend involving DDSL, Liverpool, Chelsea, Bayern Munich and Ajax.

Genuinely hadn't heard about it before the interview, which is a shame. There's a brief discussion at the beginning on Conor's progress at Liverpool in recent weeks.

[Olé Olé]

Ciaran Masterson (Conor Masterson's father) was on Off The Ball last night talking about the Friendship Cup, a tournament running in Abbotstown over the long weekend involving DDSL, Liverpool, Chelsea, Bayern Munich and Ajax.

Genuinely hadn't heard about it before the interview, which is a shame. There's a brief discussion at the beginning on Conor's progress at Liverpool in recent weeks.

A pure sidenote but his father spoke very articulately and intelligently. You could tell he was tuned in. Turns out he's director of human resources for IrishRail.

[Eminence Grise]

Must be why Conor is so good in training.

Coat. Door. Etc.

[gastric]

Must be why Conor is so good in training.

Coat. Door. Etc.

So he wasn't railing about the change in the underage system!

[Bungle]

They beat Liverpool and Chelsea and drew with united. They lost 1-0 to ajax but if they beat bayern they will be in the final against Ajax. This and the tournament ran by Kevin's shows that we are producing the talent.

That was a very good interview. I think giving more power to the loi is a good thing but the balancing act is ensuring that the likes of belvedere and cherry orchard survive and still produce top players.

[Stuttgart88]

Brian Kerr was moaning about the LOI getting more power in the Indo recently. I'll find the article when I get to a PC. He says LOI have no tradition in underage development and that focusing on elite kids from U13 will ruin our existing tradition of developing great talent. I can't agree, even if U13 does look one age group too young. The lack of LOI tradition is a red herring. If the whole pyramid is joined up the schoolboy clubs and the LOI can coexist very comfortably.