Hillsborough

[Lim till i die]

On Heysel, I don't accept the allegations of "murder".

Of course you don't

Riots happened and still happen at football grounds, (most of them not involving Liverpool fans) but most stadiums don't have walls that "collapse" due to inadequate safety procedures, and the Juventus fans died due to the wall collapsing where they were. A tragedy yes, murder no.

Structurally at the time, the stadium was completely unfit to host that final, (a crumbling dangerous dump, with chicken wire as "segregation") and when you compare it to the stadiums that hold it today, it's unbelievable that it was given the honour at all.

Pathetic excuse. Have often been in packed GAA grounds which were falling down around my ears.

Number of murders?? Zero.

"It was the Stadium."

"It was Chelsea/West Ham/NF"

"It was MI5"

"Wah"

"Wah"

Justice for the 39.

[NeilMcD]

nothing happened thats my point. The behaviour was first class, its fair to say that after 20 years since the last CL / European cup that most of those attending Istanbul were genuine fans.Athens was 2 years after and involved the same generation of fans who went along with same attitude - but it also attracted a load of scum bag hanger ons with no connection to the club who caused trouble. My point is that you cant put forward Athens as an example of "Liverpool supporters" causing trouble without considering Istanbul -balanced view!

Sorry but Istanbul should be the norm, and the fact it is not mentioned should not be held up as some sort of credit against the debit of Athens. It is the norm for people to behave. Its like that old joke that Chris Rock does about people claiming credit for looking after their kids.

So let me get this right, when things go right, its genuine fans and when things go wrong, you want to wipe your hands of it and say it was hangers on and not genuine fans. What about Heysel, was that hangers on or genuine fans

[Schumi]

On Heysel, I don't accept the allegations of "murder". Riots happened and still happen at football grounds, (most of them not involving Liverpool fans) but most stadiums don't have walls that "collapse" due to inadequate safety procedures, and the Juventus fans died due to the wall collapsing where they were. A tragedy yes, murder no.

This is incorrect. The Juventus fans died from being crushed into the wall (with a force sufficient to cause it to collapse). Its collapse actually saved more deaths.

Heysel was a complete dump but that didn't cause people to charge opposition fans and crush them.

[DeLorean]

Inquest jury concludes 96 deaths at Hillsborough 'unlawful'

The jury concluded it was unlawful killing by a 7-2 majority.

The conclusion was greeted with sobbing and cheers at the hearing in Warrington.

The jury also ruled that fan behaviour did not cause or contribute to the tragedy.

[NeverFeltBetter]

What does this mean for potential future prosecutions/litigation though?

[DeLorean]

What does this mean for potential future prosecutions/litigation though?

Hillsborough verdicts: Police chief David Duckenfield among key figures facing criminal charges

[SkStu]

Great news. Been way too long coming. These families have had to go through agony just to get justice and to clear the names of their deceased loved ones.

[OwlsFan]

This was a disaster waiting to happen and it just happened to be Hillsboro where the circumstances conspired to make it happen. There were fatal errors of judgement made but the police never set out to kill anyone. They opened the gate to allow the crush outside to abate but as a result caused the fatal crush inside. Should they have foreseen that? Yes. Incompetence? Yes. Badly policed, yes. Unlawful killing i.e. in breach of criminal law - I am not so sure. Definitely negligence. The club doesn't come out of it too well either and the stadium was shown to be antiquated and unsafe.

Presumably to cause a crush people must be pushing ? I assume it was an all ticket game so why was the Leppings Lane End overcrowded? Were there fans there without tickets? I haven't read the report so I don't know the whole circumstances. Clearly though the people who were crushed were the ones who came in early so there should have been no blame attached to them or why their names had to be cleared?

However, the attempt at the cover up by the police of their errors which was exposed by the Liverpool bereaved is a great credit to them and shows that sometimes the people do have power and if pursued with passion and belief can have results. How it took 27 years to beat the system, just shows the strength of the system and how slow the system is to own up to its grievous errors. We in Ireland know that so well about English justice.

How people weren't crushed to death in Dalymount for some of the big games I don't know. I remember being lifted off my feet in some of the crushes going in to the games which I am not sure were even all ticket.

[DeLorean]

There were fatal errors of judgement made but the police never set out to kill anyone. They opened the gate to allow the crush outside to abate but as a result caused the fatal crush inside. Should they have foreseen that? Yes. Incompetence? Yes. Badly policed, yes. Unlawful killing i.e. in breach of criminal law - I am not so sure. Definitely negligence.

Yes, there's a lot to be said for working jobs where the decisions you make (or don't make) don't have the potential to turn people's lives upside down. Even with the best will in the world mistakes happen. Obviously the cover up is another matter again but I can see how panic would set in. That doesn't excuse it of course, but there are no winners in all of this, just various degrees of losers.

[Stuttgart88]

Ireland vs Italy in Dalymount (1983?) was our Hillsborough that very nearly happened.

I usually have sympathy for people who simply by messing up in their job cause real damage, but the institutional cover-up quickly erodes any of that sympathy.

[DeLorean]

I actually read all of this thread yesterday when I found it and ye're just repeating yourselves lads. That Italy game sounds manic!

I remember going to Munster Hurling & Football finals from the early to mid-90's and although I never really felt threatened, they used have to open the gates almost routinely to leave people onto the pitch behind the goals or down the sidelines because of overcrowding in the terraces. You'd think Hillsborough would have opened people's eye even earlier than it did.

[OwlsFan]

I actually read all of this thread yesterday when I found it and ye're just repeating yourselves lads. That Italy game sounds manic!
.

When you get to my age, that happens a lot. When you get to my age......

[TheBoss]

I have a little gripe with the way the some media outlets in England and perhaps here in Ireland too as well as some "Liverpool fans" handle this awful tragedy. They seem always refer to it as "96 Liverpool Fans". Yes, it is true that 96 football fans that died were Liverpool fans but to me that degrades them as ordinary people that were killed in a tragedy. To me, 96 people innocently died from a tragedy. I don't see it as a 'football tragedy' but rather a tragedy. Just because it happened at a football stadium does not make it any different to any other tragedy that has occurred in all of life. Yet when this is remembered every year, we see memorials held at Anfield, it is like the club want to take ownership of the tragedy rather than letting whole country remember these innocent people.

Also I'm not sure why "Liverpool fans" in Ireland even held their own gathering a few years ago in Dublin. They are remembering them as Liverpool fans and not people which just irritates me.
http://www.independent.ie/sport/iris...-30180852.html

Will these same people remember the Glen Cinema disaster when that anniversary comes around, I believe not. Speaking of the Glen Cinema disaster, should that disaster only be remembered by those in the movie industry because it happened at a cinema? Or perhaps that these people that unfortunately died will be remembered as "71 Movie Fans", with movie been replaced by the film they watching. Just an annoying issue I have on this.

[SkStu]

Interesting perspective Bruce. Not a way I've ever looked at it but you make a good point. A lot of quarters refer to Liverpool fans as grief junkies and so there's obviously an element of that to it but this is something very personal to Liverpool fans and I don't begrudge them taking ownership of it. What gets lost in all this is the impact it had on families of all persuasions on Mersyside. Lots of Everton fans impacted by this too - I have no idea what the city does to remember the dead so can't say for sure if Liverpool fans have completely "hijacked" it. And probably not too concerned if they have - as supporters of our local teams we know the sense of family that there is amongst our fan bases. The good, the bad and the ugly so to speak. And families remember loss far more personally than the neighbourhood does...if you stick with that analogy. Good post though!

[DeLorean]

Yeah an interesting take but I suppose football and Liverpool F.C. is a way of life over there also, and the people that matter most, the victim's families were presumably only too happy for those associated with the football club to take ownership a such. I suspect in their pursuit of truth and justice the involvement/support of the football club gave them a much stronger platform to carry on fighting the fight, given the national and international status of Liverpool F.C. I think there's a bit of a difference between being defined by a random movie you've gone to see and that of your local sports team, like Stu says, there's a sense of community there.

The annual memorials at Anfield are very appropriate as well I believe, in fact I think it was important that they continued to recognise the lives that were lost while supporting their football team, especially with all the efforts that were going on behind the scenes to keep the topic/legal proceedings active and relevant. As for the Dublin memorials and that sort of thing, to each their own but I think it's just another symptom of the massive cringe element that comes with supporting English football in this country.

[DeLorean]

When you get to my age, that happens a lot. When you get to my age......

Ha... it was me that was dithering there really though, kind of forgetting that the posts I'd just read were from seven years ago. I think it's fair game to repeat yourself after that length of time.

[OwlsFan]

As for the Dublin memorials and that sort of thing, to each their own but I think it's just another symptom of the massive cringe element that comes with supporting English football in this country.

The stupid booing of Sterling in the recent English game at Lansdowne brought home to me the size of the Liverpool support in Ireland but a memorial in Dublin to something that happened in Sheffield in which no Irish people died....surely not.

Without wishing to go OT, is there a cringe element in supporting an English team in Ireland? I can understand why some people regard it as abhorrent, but I don't believe that the general public thinks that way as evidenced by EPL results appearing as the first item on Irish sports results programmes and on the TV with dedicated programmes showing highlights. I just don't know what life would be like on a Saturday afternoon without waiting for the usual bad news from Sheffield, and also the LoI results for the Hoops (better success there) and the IL and Scottish results. I love them all. I even supported Real Betis for a while in Spain when I was given their jersey when Ireland played in Spain and Sociedad when Aldridge played there but now it's anyone but the Big Two (I don't like Big Twos except in Rovers, the only team I have followed with any success).

[DeLorean]

Sorry, that's not what I meant by the 'cringe element'. I've a big interest in British football myself so that would have been very hypocritical! I was even a big Man Utd fan growing up and beyond and would still wish them well, without being anywhere near as fanatical. By 'cringe element' I meant things like Irish people referring to each other as Mancs and Scousers and that kind of thing, a sort of delusion that they are something more than fans from afar. The booing of Raheem Sterling was a new low in terms of cringe actually, seeing as you mention it. Even the Saipan thing, for the most part it was a Liverpool-Man Utd divide, the majority people* who supported one or the other were so blinded by their club loyalties that they couldn't even view that completely independent situation objectively.



*possibly too much of a generalisation but that's the way it seemed.

[geysir]

I have a little gripe with the way the some media outlets in England and perhaps here in Ireland too as well as some "Liverpool fans" handle this awful tragedy. They seem always refer to it as "96 Liverpool Fans". Yes, it is true that 96 football fans that died were Liverpool fans but to me that degrades them as ordinary people that were killed in a tragedy. To me, 96 people innocently died from a tragedy. I don't see it as a 'football tragedy' but rather a tragedy. Just because it happened at a football stadium does not make it any different to any other tragedy that has occurred in all of life. Yet when this is remembered every year, we see memorials held at Anfield, it is like the club want to take ownership of the tragedy rather than letting whole country remember these innocent people.

Also I'm not sure why "Liverpool fans" in Ireland even held their own gathering a few years ago in Dublin. They are remembering them as Liverpool fans and not people which just irritates me.
http://www.independent.ie/sport/iris...-30180852.html

Will these same people remember the Glen Cinema disaster when that anniversary comes around, I believe not. Speaking of the Glen Cinema disaster, should that disaster only be remembered by those in the movie industry because it happened at a cinema? Or perhaps that these people that unfortunately died will be remembered as "71 Movie Fans", with movie been replaced by the film they watching. Just an annoying issue I have on this.

I think your opinion is way off the mark. That linked article is not a good reference point for your opinion, the Liverpool fans' slogan was "Ireland Walks With The 96" not 96 Liverpool fans. At a rough guess I'd say the most common reference is the "Hillsborough 96" or the "Hillsborough Disaster". The campaign for justice is called "justice for the 96" or the Hillsborough justice campaign . And it in no way demeans the memory of the 96 to be referred as Liverpool fans or football fans in an article.
Hillsborough 96 is word or phrase which easily evokes the memory of all that happened inside that stadium. Liverpool fans probably have a more personal memory.
Another tragedy was the "Stardust" nightclub fire, do you think that demeans the memory of the young people to be remembered in that way as nightclubbers, or is it a phrase which evokes the memory of that particular tragedy affecting the lives of so many? There was a service last year for the Cambrian mining disaster, that's how we in society connect with that particular tragedy.
Disasters or tragedies are generally referred to by location and sometimes occupation.

[TheBoss]

I think your opinion is way off the mark. That linked article is not a good reference point for your opinion, the Liverpool fans' slogan was "Ireland Walks With The 96" not 96 Liverpool fans. At a rough guess I'd say the most common reference is the "Hillsborough 96" or the "Hillsborough Disaster". The campaign for justice is called "justice for the 96" or the Hillsborough justice campaign . And it in no way demeans the memory of the 96 to be referred as Liverpool fans or football fans in an article.
Hillsborough 96 is word or phrase which easily evokes the memory of all that happened inside that stadium. Liverpool fans probably have a more personal memory.
Another tragedy was the "Stardust" nightclub fire, do you think that demeans the memory of the young people to be remembered in that way as nightclubbers, or is it a phrase which evokes the memory of that particular tragedy affecting the lives of so many? There was a service last year for the Cambrian mining disaster, that's how we in society connect with that particular tragedy.
Disasters or tragedies are generally referred to by location and sometimes occupation.

I did refer to 'some' and not 'all'. I have no problem with the terms you have mentioned, its just that particular term that I find annoying.

In that article I linked to, what were some of the people wearing/waving at that event, Liverpool jerseys, scarfs, flags etc. If they were there for those people they would have been dressed more appropriately considering the tragic way they died. If you asked those 'Irish Liverpool fans' what the 96 means would they say 96 people or 96 Liverpool fans, I'll just leave that thought out there.

In relation to Stardust, I would say that 'nightclubbers' would be a demeaning way to describe them, I would say young people would be more respectful cause in general life they are people, so we should label 'nightclubbers' because on that night they were nightclubbing? Its not as if a 'nightclubber' is a title that one gives themselves is it now.

I think using the term 'person' or 'people' is more emotionally responsive by the public when the hear of a death, to call them other than that sort makes them not as important cause it sounds like their something else other than what they are which is you and me. I can't quite find the vocabulary to explain it clearer.