The thing is that I am not sure the English team has a tradition of turning to face their flag - just from what I recall, they, and many other teams, just stay facing the way they are.Originally Posted by jbyrne
No idea why the West Brom team made up of players of different nationalities turned at all.
I think we have had a tradition of facing our flag since Jack Charlton introduced it as a motivational tactic. I think we're very unusual in that regard, it's definitely not the norm.
Maybe that's what happened. They all turned the wrong way and McClean was the only one facing the right way!
Protocol states we should face the flag when the anthem is played.
http://www.military.ie/info-centre/d...national-flag/
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news...-31064482.html
http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/upload/p...tions/1104.pdf
DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?
Isn't it interesting that this breaks around the same time as a Nazi-saluting Princess Elizabeth is front page of the sun. I just don't understand the fuss. I understand what he did and why he did it and he is as entitled to do it as the boys in Mexico did. And remember the Aussie (I think it was) who was also a medalist was hammered for congratulating them! A political/personal statement is the right of any person to make. No matter how we personally might not agree with or understand it. The OTT carry on the year before last over a kiss between 2 Russian athletes on the podium was in Europe and the USA, in Russia it just didn't matter, they had won medals. Then last year the madness in Sochi over having rainbow painted nails and badges, the locals just ignored it and watched the sport.
Unfortunately the majority of meeja are currently covering "events" not sports and so find it boring, or are patently unable, to report on what matters (sports) and choose to focus on what their editors will cream themselves over - scandal!
I personally wouldn't have behaved as James did and had to endure GSTQ, Flower of Scotland and the bloody Italian dirge and each time just wanted to go back to the dressing room and rest.
http://www.championat.com/bets/artic...r-week-16.html
Giving the Russians a weekly taste of our glorious LOI!
I might have missed this in the thread, but whats this story?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_O...k_Power_salute
You've got no fans.
think it's a reference to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_O...k_Power_salute
The reference to Mexico City was what made me think of it, the two incidents have nothing in common. Peter Norman (the Aussie) came up with them sharing the pair of gloves.
Oh yeah forgot about that...............jeez this thread
It's unlikely the peculiar circumstances will ever arise again, unless WBA make a cup final whilst McClean is in the starting line-up, but such an obligation would be completely out-of-order in any other place of work. If it's actually anything other than mere rhetoric to appease the outraged and, if enforced upon McClean and it had a detrimental effect upon his employment through reprimanding or some such on account of his conscientious objection, I'd imagine he'd have a good case for breach of his rights/direct discrimination on basis of belief under employment law. The Human Rights and Equality Acts apply in the workplace too. If my employer was instructing me in such a manner, I'd be flabbergasted. It would be utterly inappropriate.
He wasn't disprespecting it. He was respectfully disengaging (by bowing his head, closing his eyes and keeping quiet). If you could accept he was respectfully disengaging, would you concede at least some respect for his position?Respect is a two way street, if you want people to respect your views you have to respect theirs. Maybe he was maybe he wasn't. But from the pictures it did look like he was making a point and insulting the flag and anthem. I can see both points of views.
Aye, I thought that bizarre myself. From memory, the England team always face forward. I'm sure I've even seen them linked with arms round one another on occasion too.
Was that introduced by Charlton? In spite of the guideline document from the Department of Taoiseach that Bonnie mentions above, the Irish rugby team stand arm-in-arm rather than face the flag when the anthem is played. Not that the guideline document lays out statutory requirements, but interesting all the same. It also advises that all present should salute the flag until the final note. Don't think I've ever seen any team anywhere of any nationality ever do that! Very militaristic.
Personally, I like the camaraderie apparent in the arms-round-shoulders approach to anthems. It's more stirring.
This bit is interesting too:
The National Flag should never be defaced by placing slogans, logos, lettering or pictures of any kind on it, for example at sporting events.
Oops...
Spanish national team players don't even sing their national anthem.
ok....
1. WBA knew what they were getting when the signed him... poppy kerfuffle and all over last few years...
2. Didn't disrespect the Flag / Queen / Country / Prince George / Davina McCall or any other British national treasure... respectful non participation I think it's called...
3. Did they know there was going to be anthems? Surely they did or they're disorganized amateurs...
4. If they did know, why didn't Jimbo discuss it with Pulis?
5. If they did know, why start him and put in him in that position? no anthem after 30mins / half time... eh boys?
6. He could have faced the flag and kept his head down.... or not... he didn't turn his back or do anything or say anything..
7. Apart from the likes of Freddie Kanouté there seems to be very few footballers with principles nowadays... so a man taking a stand is actually admirable..
8. To be fair... Cameron apologized for Bloody Sunday... maybe we need to strat the moving on process little by little
9. As a man born in Derry why shouldn't he play in England? UK was happy to create and retain NI all these years since 1922, why shouldn't he earn a living there?
10. How many countries/anthems/presidents have been deliberately and egregiously disrespected by UK football fans for no reason other than the opportunity presents itself..?
innit though??
Things are moving on from the dark days and people/communities are reconciling. Certainly that is true. However, I think it is important to understand the context of the gesture so that we can actually try and interpret/discuss it properly. The gesture is ultimately rooted, not in bitterness or hate, but in a self-respecting fear of appearing subservient. Niall McGinn explained this on behalf of those nationalist lads who do the same thing when lining out for NI. James evidently doesn't hate the English or British; he gets along fine with them every day of living here. Likewise, he has no issues with his team-mates from NI and gets on perfectly well with them.
This fear or insecurity of appearing subservient, however, is very naturally more pronounced in a society moving on from a conflict that involved two "mutually exclusive" or incompatible sides attempting to violently out-balance, domineer and subjugate one another. For nationalists in the north, 'GSTQ' remains a very real symbol of those who, not just in living memory, but also contemporarily, gladly lord it over you and who crudely and insularly see your falling one step behind as a progressive leap for them. They measure their success by your failure. If you're a nationalist who is secure enough to be able to overlook that, great, but I will defend the likes of McClean if stepping above that is something over which he still has strong emotional and logical reservations. I won't hold him to blame for a reluctance to psychologically/apparently subjugate himself to an ideology of supremacy. Why should be feel bad for it?
Eamonn McCann's critical analysis of Saville is well worth a listen, by the way, if you're interested:
Last edited by DannyInvincible; 22/07/2015 at 6:44 PM.
Always worth re-posting some expert opinion:
Eamonn McCann was spot on on his thoughts on the Saville inquiry there.
Is Jaws Tours what that Aussie surfer was on the other day?
Oops...
No Somos muchos pero estamos locos.
One thing that bugs me is that the flag isn't above the south stand at home games and players don't face that way....pretty sure they did in jacks days. Now For anthem players face north stand..I. e away fans end.
Interesting one here
Wayne Rooney is not singing (unsurprisingly being from an Irish family)
Also Gary Neville, indeed Gary seems to have his head bowed which seems to be the polite form of protest?
His stance is very much like this, maybe Gary is an anti-Royalist, but like Ian Brown of the Stone Roses (also form Manchester like Neville)
This seems to back up that idea, granted it is only a forum post.
http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showt...php?p=18835018
Not seen much mention of that in the British media, the sort of thing they would likely gloss over.
Well I read once that Gary Neville in particular is a nationalist and so refuses to sing the anthem because he doesn't believe in the royal family.
This article seems to go along with that.
See he is not just not singing he has his head bowed.Wayne Rooney did not sing the national anthem at the start of his England career while Gary Neville, now an England coach, refused to join in as he said he preferred "focusing on the match" instead.
Last edited by tricky_colour; 23/07/2015 at 12:49 AM.
I respect his beliefs but I don't agree with them. To McClean GSTQ and the flag mean something different but to me it doesn't. It represents my mother's family and my friends and also the people of Britain. I can also see why people would be offended and take it up the wrong way and feel insulted.
As for the top bit, let's look at it this way. If you work in the catering business and one of your employee's tells you before hand that they wouldn't serve at a same-sex wedding because of their beliefs would you let them? Or what about the situation Newcastle found themselves in with Pa**** Cisse when he said he wouldn't wear the jersey because Wonga were the sponsors and it went against his religious values?
Pulis was making the point that we work together as a team and no one is bigger than WBA etc. He also pointed out that he gets on well with the rest of the squad even the two Northern Ireland lads, so that shows there was no bad blood in the camp and McClean isn't a raving 'Up the RA' Republican. Tony Pulis is right. We all have a personal beliefs but when you put on that West Brom shirt and walk on the pitch you leave them in the dressing room.
I like how we face the flag and prefer to to be honest.
Given the provenance of some in the rugby squad in general I would say it would be a tough one to implement them facing the flag.
DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?
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