21st round LOI. July 25-27

[Nesta99]

I know your post crossed with mine, but I think it's really important to emphasise that, in the circumstances of a person landing on their head from a height of ten foot or so, putting them in the recovery position is absolutely the wrong thing to do.

It worked last night, but you can't play odds with potential spinal and neck injuries.

You are arguably correct in what you say. But a jaw thrust is very rarely performed correctly by those who have basic first aid training and protecting c-spine is admirable but pointless if the injured does not have a secure airway. On the balance of all possibilities the correct thing was to act within the scope of knowledge and if that was the recovery position so be it, the best course of action was taken. If on the other hand you had a qualified Paramedic or ED doctor (not a bog standard GP) with appropriate equipment in the vicinity then let them worry about neurological damage or shock while securing the airway. 'Swallowing his tongue' is misleading as it does cause people to think the thing to do is stick fingers etc in to a gob to draw the tongue back, if the injured spews as a resut then we are really in the sh*t, correct terminology should be used and encouraged. I am properly surprised that some people are looking for a scapegoat for what was an accident, CityRebel's foul analysis was amusing this is not now that a blame game was attempted (not by CityRebel mind).

[pineapple stu]

There's no "arguably" about it. If Lenihan had damaged one of his c-vertebrae on the way down - entirely possible - then rolling him into the recovery position could have killed him instantly. "Three, four and five keep you alive" is a saying - if you break C3, C4 or C5 in your cervical spine (three of the seven vertebrae at the top of the spine, basically in your neck), your diaphragm stops working and you basically have instant cardiac arrest. I think that's not fully appreciated.

If you roll a patient with a spinal injury, you can do much more harm than good. Yes, protecting c-spine is admirable but pointless if there is no patent airway. But rolling the patient is admirable but pointless if they suffer cardiac arrest. And you risk paralysing the person too. The airway must be opened properly - in the case of a spinal injury, you use a jaw thrust. If you don't know how, you wait for someone who does (and there's an ambulance at all LoI games and supposedly a doctor with each team for a reason). As I said, you shouldn't play odds with spinal injuries. Rolling the person was absolutely not the best course of action. And there is no scope of knowledge which says you roll someone who has just landed on their head from ten foot. You can't make up your own scope of knowledge.

Lenihan didn't necessarily need a paramedic or emergency department doctor; an EMT (from the ambulance crew) would have been enough to maintain the airway, put him on a stretcher and take him to hospital.

I don't want to sound too harsh on O'Shea. I can entirely understand why he acted as he did; it's a completely natural reaction. The real thing to come out of this is that more people should go on a basic first aid course. Just as a general rule, it can't be a bad thing.

[CityRebel]

The most important thing is Brian Lenihan is ok now.

[Dodge]

Well yeah that is true but we should of had a penalty in the first half. But our finishing did cost us.

The Hoare/Gorman thing? That was a free out as Gorman clearly started the wrestling. He was first to go down but not a penalty IMO

[pineapple stu]

CityRebel - I don't agree. That's very important of course, but i think it'd be more important if people - from watching the incident or even reading this thread - went out and did a first aid course so they could know how to help at something like this in future.

Spoke to someone on this today, and their first comment was that they couldn't believe it when they see Lenihan being rolled "like a sack of spuds" after what happened him.

[Nesta99]

I can assure you that far more people are saved daily by being rolled 'like a sack of spuds' than intervention being conservative in fear of worsening or causing spinal injury! That is not to say it should totally be disregarded either but to err too much on the side of caution is folly unless there is obvious deformity or trauma. Can anyone recall a serious spinal injury to LoI player??? The chap is fine, and that is due to the actions of people with a basic knowledge of first aid not over complicating things. Well done to them!!

[CityRebel]

CityRebel - I don't agree. That's very important of course, but i think it'd be more important if people - from watching the incident or even reading this thread - went out and did a first aid course so they could know how to help at something like this in future.

Spoke to someone on this today, and their first comment was that they couldn't believe it when they see Lenihan being rolled "like a sack of spuds" after what happened him.

Dr. Stu, that's complete rubbish, there may be lessons to be learned, but the fact he's ok is the most important thing.

[pineapple stu]

Genuinely Nesta - in the cold light of day, there is no point suggesting rolling Lenihan was the right thing to do. PHECC, who govern first aid (and higher levels of pre-hospital care up to Advanced Paramedic level) will disagree with you quite clearly all the way through their Guidelines, which are available online.

It would objectively have been better had O'Shea realised he was beyond his knowledge and let higher skill levels act.

It has happened in England that people who moved a spinal, paralysing him, got sued for not acting within the scope of their training. If you want to risk paralysing someone and being sued, rolling a spinal is the best way to go.

CItyRebel - one person ok is very important. The skills to make many more ok in the future is, in opinion, more important.

[Nesta99]

Dr. Stu, that's complete rubbish, there may be lessons to be learned, but the fact he's ok is the most important thing.

Stu's point i presume is that it may not be just so ok the next time so people should make it their business to know what to do in the event of being present at a similar incident, though to be the most qualified to intervene at a LoI match is unlikely this may not be the case at say a junior match or Summer league. The incident was managed well but I thought the Doctors were a little slow in reacting and getting across to the player. This brings up all sorts of issues in relation to the duty of care that players have to eachother by not feigning injury as in the event of something like this happening people may not react promptly as they should as there is a momentary pause to see if the players is seeking a free or sanction against opposition players!

[pineapple stu]

Stu's point i presume is that it may not be just so ok the next time so people should make it their business to know what to do in the event of being present at a similar incident, though to be the most qualified to intervene at a LoI match is unlikely this may not be the case at say a junior match or Summer league

That's exactly it.

In other news, Derry being fairly clinical in the bowl; 4-1 up within an hour. They even scored our goal for us.

[pineapple stu]

Shades of Dalymount as there's a 7 minute hold up for an injury to Mark langtry. Looked like he caught his studs in the turf. But he's been brought by ambulance to the bench apparently. Not seen that before

[PartySaint]

Dundalk 1 up after 2 minutes. A win next week in Cork could see them have the title wrapped up very early this season.

[Nesta99]

I know exactly who PHECC are as I have done work with them! I also cannot agree that clinical guidlines govern all circumstances without pragmatism considered - and an experience practioner would know this. Higher skilled people were some distance away and O Shea acted quickly and competently for the circumstances he was faced with. I have pm'd you Stu earlier outlining the rationale of not over thinking First Aid ie aid given before professional help arrives mainly not to pull the thread further off topic. First Aiders should not be bogged down by PHECC Pre-Hospital care guidelines as that is not their job. When somone dies from easily resolved hypoxia from not being rolled due to somone afraid to act in case of exacerbating an unlikely spinal injury we shall see what the courts have to say. In the meantime Good Samaratin Law will do just fine as a defence to litigation. Doing nothing is a lot worse than doing something in good faith hence litigation is a red herring and scare mongering! Exactly the sort of stuff that discourages people from becoming first aiders! If a paramedic log rolled without caution to further injury then they are open to litigation as they have the skill sets to interevene in a manner appropriate to their level of training. Anyway enough now. The outcome was spot on, phecc all was done wrong, nobody died and a basic first aider should stick to the basics (dr)ABC's not riduclous immobilisations or jaw thrusts!!

[Aaron]

UCD 1-6 Derry City

Patterson x2
Duffy x3
Molloy

Doherty OG for UCD

Also Shaun Kelly signed for us from Limerick

[patrickccfc]

2-0 dundalk ugh

[patrickccfc]

That goal difference dundalk have is definitely an extra point.. we will have to be at it from the start on Friday and not let them play cos they have players to do a lot of damage to any team that don't get it right at the back

[adamd164]

Maybe Trevor Croly can loan us a few players for next week; Kilduff can come back to his preferred hunting ground for a start.

[Nesta99]

UCD 1-6 Derry City


Also Shaun Kelly signed for us from Limerick

Decent signing!

[CityRebel]

Stu's point i presume is that it may not be just so ok the next time so people should make it their business to know what to do in the event of being present at a similar incident, though to be the most qualified to intervene at a LoI match is unlikely this may not be the case at say a junior match or Summer league. The incident was managed well but I thought the Doctors were a little slow in reacting and getting across to the player. This brings up all sorts of issues in relation to the duty of care that players have to eachother by not feigning injury as in the event of something like this happening people may not react promptly as they should as there is a momentary pause to see if the players is seeking a free or sanction against opposition players!

I believe that Lenihan being ok is the most important thing, I agree that "people should make it their business to know what to do in the event of being present at a similar incident". I said as much earlier in the thread.

[Yossarian]

Comfortable win for us this evening. We didn't have to work too hard to get it. We'll have to up our game for the trip to Turners Cross but I think we can. A win there for us would be huge going into the last series of games.