FIFA and Non Sovereign States

**geysir** · 19/04/2013, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I'm not sure I understand. I don't have an opinion on the Kosovo case, but as Gib complied with everything needed in 1999 how can you say Gib's case is weaker than Kosovo's? My understanding is that Gib simply ticks every box. Leaving Kosovo aside, what makes you think Gib's case is less than rock solid (excuse the pun)? Is Gib not a UN member?

Steve Menary was there and I think he's familiar with the Kosovo situation too, also Greenland et al.

No Gib don't have to be a UN member according to CAS, read the stuff I quoted in bold type. UEFA didn't backdate the UN membership rule.

I belatedly edited my reply to state a moral case v a technical case. Gib have a sound technical case for becoming yet another UEFA minnow member but Kosova is a (real) country, population 1.7m, a republic, recognised by a majority of the world's nations, only Russia's veto is standing in their way, that veto just depends on Serbia opposition and Serbia's opposition (imo) will be watered down by real politik as Serbia strives to be a EU member.

**Stuttgart88** · 19/04/2013, 12:01 PM

If I had the luxury of belatedly editing my post I'd have removed the UN question because I knew that the original application predated the "UN rule"!

I think Gib's technical case is strong and the moral case, certainly vis-a-vis some Caribbean islands and Pacific atoll collections, is also very strong. Kosovo's case should be judged on its own merit, not whether it's morally superior or otherwise to Gib, no?

**geysir** · 19/04/2013, 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

If I had the luxury of belatedly editing my post I'd have removed the UN question because I knew that the original application predated the "UN rule"!

I think Gib's technical case is strong and the moral case, certainly vis-a-vis some Caribbean islands and Pacific atoll collections, is also very strong. Kosovo's case should be judged on its own merit, not whether it's morally superior or otherwise to Gib, no?

Ah now, I belatedly edited my post and had pressed send, before I read your reply. You need to give me some moral leeway there

Mainly I mentioned Kosova because it came up in your post.
I think it's okay to discuss Gibraltar getting through via a legal loophole versus the merits of Kosova

**Stuttgart88** · 19/04/2013, 12:14 PM

Legal "loophole", or compliance with the legal criteria and overwhelming support from CAS?

**geysir** · 19/04/2013, 12:29 PM

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Legal "loophole", or compliance with the legal criteria and overwhelming support from CAS?

Yes but one could argue with good cause that CAS's overwhelming support was based on the merits of the legal loophole which circumvented UEFA's attempts to restrict minnow member applications

Whereas for example we know that the FAI did not exploit a legal loophole to have Daniel Kearns eligible to play for the FAI, 'them was and is the rules'.
And yes, CAS's ruling in the Gib case was made 100% in compliance with the rules as they stood when Gib made their application to join UEFA.

BTW, It was reported that only Scotland, Wales and England actually voted for Gibraltar's membership application, the FAI were not mentioned as being one of the 3 votes.

**Stuttgart88** · 19/04/2013, 12:36 PM

GFA guys told me personally it was FAI.

**pineapple stu** · 19/04/2013, 12:44 PM

It is strange that the FA weren't one of the three, isn't it?

**geysir** · 19/04/2013, 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

GFA guys told me personally it was FAI.

Then the reporting of the voting details is suspect.
The widespread standard account is that "in 2007 UEFA delegates decisively rejected Gibraltar with only England, Scotland and Wales voting in favour."
Caught between a rock and a hard place.
Maybe there was another vote at another time that the FAI supported?

**Stuttgart88** · 19/04/2013, 1:15 PM

Well, they said the FAI have been supporters from the start. The tale about not asking GFA for their share of the U19 gate suggests strong continued solidarity.

I asked them why Spanish influence was so big, given they only have one vote like anyone else. One of them said that playing Spain in a friendly can be worth €1mm. I forgot to say we're playing Spain in a friendly in June!

**geysir** · 19/04/2013, 1:46 PM

I don't think Spain can scuttle Gibraltar's membership application ad infinitum, but possibly they can delay it.
The CAS ruling way back referred to that UEFA must do everything it can to allow Gibraltar full membership.
Up to now, UEFA can argue that they are involving Gibraltar in the process to become full member.
There's a vote on the full membership soon?

**Stuttgart88** · 19/04/2013, 2:08 PM

May 24th I think, at Wembley before the CL final.

**TheBoss** · 19/04/2013, 2:50 PM

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

- To become a FIFA member a country needs to be (a) in its regional confederation and (b) a country recognised by the UN.

What a very strange term that is, you could argue that the European Union could apply for membership.

**geysir** · 19/04/2013, 3:33 PM

Originally Posted by TheBoss

What a very strange term that is, you could argue that the European Union could apply for membership.

If that day comes, then it will be called the German Union of Acquiescent Republics.

**Stuttgart88** · 19/04/2013, 3:35 PM

Ah come on, I wasn't quoting from a statute book. I was relaying the contents of a talk I was at not submitting a legal paper.

By regional confederation I thought it was clear I was referring to the regional football confederation - UEFA, CONCACAF, CAF or whatever.

**geysir** · 19/04/2013, 3:53 PM

FWIW, the FIFA statutes do have an additional rule, a possible back door entry to to the FIFA club.

An Association in a region which has not yet gained independence
may, with the authorisation of the Association in the country on
which it is dependent, also apply for admission to FIFA.

You'd wonder how this would be possible with the written in stone requirement
'Membership is only permitted if an Association has already been a
provisional member of a Confederation for at least two years.'

Possibly the other confederations (other than UEFA) don't require an applicant member to be recognised by the UN.

**Gather round** · 19/04/2013, 4:05 PM

Thanks for that Stutts, fascinating stuff.

Spain v NI, qualifier for Euro 04. Apart from our boys managing only one shot in the entire game, and being glassed by some Real Madrid Ultra wannabes who objected to a Barca Crusaders banner, the evening was memorable for our fans singing "You'll never take Gibraltar" for the last 20 minutes as we waved the departing local fans to the exits

**nigel-harps1954** · 19/04/2013, 4:08 PM

About time the Peoples Republic of Donegal got onto this one.

**Gather round** · 19/04/2013, 4:18 PM

Agreed. Peoples Republic Of Donegal Soccer On Ulster Territory!

**TheBoss** · 19/04/2013, 4:25 PM

A small article last week about Spain rejecting it: http://en.mercopress.com/2013/04/08/...s-to-join-uefa

They say "Any Sporting Federation" but they are accepted in Cricket, Basketball and Darts.

**geysir** · 19/04/2013, 5:01 PM

The more minnow members like Gibraltar that are added to the UEFA club, the more that might support the cry for playoffs to weed out the minnows.
Spain could well pursue a minnow play-off system to ensure they don't have to play against Gibraltar.
The first 40 on the UEFA list, plus 5 of the best from nr 41 downwards.
Leaving 9 qualifier groups of 5 teams each.

I hear the sound of DeLorean purring.