I know. But that doesn't contradict Brodie's thesis.Originally Posted by gspain
In fact if anything, it reinforces it, assuming that the Shelbourne Hotel meeting was after October 1921.
For such a sequence might explain why the dispute went from initially being a set of grievances by a couple of individual Dublin clubs, to a full-scale movement to breakaway by the Leinster FA i.e. overriding political events caused (footballing) attitudes in the 26 counties to harden progressively.
Last edited by EalingGreen; 17/12/2009 at 3:51 PM.
I don't believe the formation of the FAI was politically motivated. Rather the general politicial environment was used to facilitate and legitimise its establishment.
The establishment of the FAI was the end result of what was essentially a power struggle within the IFA. Setting up a rival FA is not a spur of the moment event, it seems it was a very calculated move that was planned (for some time?) in advance.
EG, the point of my previous post was to point out that NB using some survey to try and indicate the future or present beliefs of people living in the North was a bit daft when they democratically exercised that right in June 2009, the same week as his survey was published.
Your other comments aren't really relevent to me or the thread, time will take care of the future governance of the North (as has been agreed by most of us living here), although O’Leary suggested that, if power-sharing is good for nationalists in the North today, it might be appropriate for Unionists too in a future, federal Ireland. Its all Crystal Ball stuff!
Anyway, I’ve much preferred the Irish football history comments over the last couple of pages, all very interesting and educational!
If it was, as you suggest, a political (small "p", not capital "P") power struggle within the IFA, then this overlooks the fact that the balance of power was very uneven.
So why would the Leinster FA make a bid for power, within a single entity, which they could not realistically win?
For not only were the six counties the clearly established stronghold of football in Ireland at the time, but the IFA had much greater resources, as well as the history of a senior Association and the influence of their Membership of the International Board.
What is your evidence that they were following a long-term strategy to breakaway?
I'm not saying you are wrong, but the fact that the IFA was prepared to conduct negotiations over a long period, and was still taken by surprise by the Shelbourne Hotel document, doesn't make sense.
That is, it would have been in their (IFA's) interests to nip any prospective breakaway in the bud much earlier i.e. before the Leinster FA bolstered its forces.
My own guess (nothing more than that, mind) is that what started out as a dispute between a couple of Dublin clubs and the IFA, developed so that the Leinster FA took up the cudgel on behalf of their Members.
Then when political events caused a hardening of attitudes generally between North and South, that caused the Leinster (and Munster) FA(s) to determine to go the whole way towards secession.
(Without meaning to be controversial, it's a bit like events in NI in the late 60's/early 70's i.e. what started out as a campaign for Civil Rights within NI, supported even by some Unionists etc, eventually metamorphosed into a full-blown drive for a United Ireland, driven exclusively from within the Nationalist Community. But maybe that's only adding another 50 pages to this thread, for which I apologise in advance!)
Last edited by EalingGreen; 17/12/2009 at 4:48 PM.
To be accurate, less than 43% eligible, exercised that right.
I was amongst the majority of voters who didn't.
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
Yawn!!
It's a reasonable assumption. I don't know and we probably never will for sure.
We did have a proiper league and cup from 1921/22 season albeit with all Dublin clubs.
BTW just to correct something a few pages back. NI did not play as Ireland in friendlies or at least didn't v Uruguay in 1964 - used "Northern Ireland" on the programme as per non BC games.
That would be consistent with the RoI as we used "Republic of Ireland" from 1954 on for both friendlies and competitive games.
I can only speculate but perhaps you answered your own question by highlighting that the balance of power was so one-sided (and that power was being abused?)
I'd question if the Leinster FA/ Dublin clubs had a nationalist sentiment strong enough to motivate the establishment of a separate FA on purely political grounds. After all football wasn't the nationalist sport of the day.
Well how do you define "long-term"? Obviously the involved parties needed a level of organisation to establish the FAI. A level of organisation that would have taken time. How much time? - anybody's guess.
Yes your suggestion is plausible.
I think there's enough clues there to suggest there was a determination from the FAI to replace the IFA as the island's FA and that was the motivation for its establishment. Whether this determination's engine was political is open to debate.
Link? Didn't think soI haven't had the time or inclination even to read the NILT survey to which NB referred, plus I am very loathe to enter into the political (i.e. non-footballing) side of this thread.
But for all that the Nationalist Parties are "strong advocates" of a single Irish team etc, they would appear to have rather more important matters to address.
For soon after the European elections to which you refer, SF held a series of roadshows in the USA, to appeal to Irish America for dollars, sorry, one last push towards a UI etc
Anyhow, one of their Platform Speakers was (Corkman) Professor Brendan O'Leary. If you Google him, you will see that O'Leary is a leading political psephologist/demographer, not just in the Irish context, but internationally. For example, he was New Labour's chief guru in GB during Tony Blair's electoral successes of the 1990's etc. And I think it fair to say he is no friend of Ulster Unionism!
Yet the Irish Times reported that O'Leary had disclosed at SF's San Francisco (or LA?) Conference that he felt that the European Election results indicated to him that electoral support for a UI in NI had now plateaued. Consequently, he did not foresee a 50%+1 majority for unification arising "in the foreseeable future" - a clear u-turn from his previous forecasts.
Strangely enough, when I looked for confirmation of this on SF's website, Press Releases etc soon after, this particular contribution by O'Leary was nowhere to be seen...
Anyhow, I am always rather sceptical about attempts to predict such matters over the long-term, but if the likes of O'Leary is now admitting it, it can hardly be bad news for those who advocate retaining the Union!
And if the Union is secure, then more importantly, so must be the NI team!
Fascinated by the history lesson being conducted here by EG and gspain - I've read many of the books related to the foundation of the FAI but it's interesting to hear the Brodie version of events and the various interpretations of the motivation for the breakaway.
Regardless of the broader discussion on here about the prospects for an All-Ireland team I think this constructive discussion proves that there is far more that unites us than divides us. Thanks lads.
"There's man all over for you, blaming on his boots the fault of his feet" - Samuel Beckett, Waiting for Godot
Don't say that ET(!), though you are of course Right.
Blame the FAI (& IFA) before we were all born.
So not much change there?
The idea of a United Ireland team is good strictly for sporting purposes, but let's face it lads, it will never happen, nor should it. We have our team and they have theirs, and that's that. Players born in the North who feel that they should play for the Republic of Ireland are allowed to do so (Darron Gibson) and vice versa. Let's move on.
It's not "vice versa", nor do we want it to be "vice versa".
But, you're right - let's move on.
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
Google it.
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
You can't really say that though, we live in a rapidly changing world, honestly anything could happen.
So, what do we all think about the New European Superstate team?
'Yawn'
hmmmm...i remember people saying a couple of years ago there will never be peace in Northern Ireland withe the likes of Paisley, Adams and McGuinness knocking around. If I'd have said McGuinness and Paisley will be first ministers together they'd have been getting the straight jacket out for me....
But yeah, I always enjoy the 'never gonna happen' brigade'
Folding my way into the big money!!!
Yeah, I bet if Robbie Keane came out when he was 17 saying how much he'd love to play for the North you'd have a different opinion!It's not "vice versa", nor do we want it to be "vice versa".
But, you're right - let's move on.
I hate when people say "it's never gonna happen"
Pessimism will be the death of you one day, i swear of it!
Absolutely not.
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
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