Norn Iron rubbish part 23452346526

[EalingGreen]

Effectively the IFA considered itself the FA for the whole island even after the formation of the FAI in 1921 (then the Football Association of the Irish Free state).

Not entirely so (though the IFA considered itself the "senior" body). For in "re-union" meetings held in the 20's etc, the IFA was prepared to recognise the authority of the FAIFS within its own jurisdiction etc, subject to certain conditions (see more, below).

The FAI did pick Northern players for the games in Spain & Portugal in 1946 but otherwise didn't.

Not so (as CDG correctly points out). In fact, the FAI picked a number of NI-born players, including before 1946 (eg Harry Chatton).
For more information, see JCD's excellent blog entry:
http://nifootball.blogspot.com/2006/...ionalists.html

FIFA had to get involved because the Home Nations entered the 1950 World Cup albeit using the Home Championship as qualifiers. The FAI asked FIFA to intervene and stop NI from picking RoI born players. Influence was also used with certain English clubs to stop them releasing southern playewrs for what is now NI. This is all documented in the FAI's official history by Peter Byrne 1996. FIFA couldn't allow players to play for 2 different countries in the World Cup so effectiuvely the NI team that played Wales in Wrexham in 1950 was the last official team to represent this island as a whole in a football match.

Readers may be interested to know why the FAI intervened and "influence" had to be brought to bear; indeed more generally, why so many ROI-born players volunteered to play for the IFA - sometimes even when this clashed with FAI call-ups.

Between Partition and the 1950's (at least), IFA games in the Home Championships were often much more prestigious than those played by the FAI - remember, England and Scotland were giants of the game in those days.

Secondly, IFA away games in Eng/Scot/Wales were usually more convenient for Irish players with GB clubs.

Third, many such players were earning their living with Belfast clubs, including Linfield(!), Belfast Celtic and Glentoran - arguably three of the four biggest clubs in Ireland at the time.

Moreover, the IFA treated "Free State" players at least as well as those from NI.
For evidence, click on the individual Blog entry (above) for Tommy Breen.
Or see the career of the great Johnny Carey. For not only was Carey made Captain by the IFA, choosing to play for them over the FAI, but he even joined the British Army when WWII broke out, on the basis that Britain (Man.U) had given him a warm welcome and a good living, so he owed it to them to reciprocate!
Or there is this extract from an interview with Aston Villa's Con Martin (another IFA Captain):

Con was another dual internationalist. He played six times for Northern Ireland from 1946 to 1950 when the split was finally made between the FAI and the northern IFA who from then on were only able to recruit players born in their respective jurisdictions. Matters had come to a head during the 1950 World Cup campaign when some players (including Martin) represented both countries. Extreme pressure was put on the Irish players involved by the FAI to declare themselves in future only for the Republic.
Con was very unhappy about it: “I always had a great relationship with the IFA. We were treated very well and I always liked playing for them but the night before the game in Wrexham (when Northern Ireland played Wales in a World Cup tie) I got a call from Dublin asking me to refuse to play. I said that it was difficult to give an answer because this was my work, my profession.
“However, when I returned to Aston Villa the morning after the game I was approached by the chairman who asked me to refuse to play for Northern Ireland again. Surprised at this coming from him I asked why and he said that Villa would not be welcome in the Republic if I continued to play for Northern Ireland. At the time there was a big connection between Villa and Shamrock Rovers and it was Rovers who were making the running on this issue… and about his time I had got a lot of threatening letters and was called a Judas for playing for 20 pieces of silver. Some of the other players were reluctant to follow me but eventually they all did.”
http://irishabroad.com/news/irishpos...thOf220308.asp

* - Remember, too, that many of the Southern players picked by the IFA after 1921 had actually been born in the 26 counties before Partition i.e. whilst it (IFA) was unquestionably the sole authority over football in Ireland.

There was another battle resolved by FIFA in 1954 over the term "Ireland" which was resolved with the terms Northern Ireland and Republic of Ireland being used for Internationals outsid eof the home championship. Northern Ireland used "Ireland" still for the Home Championship as late as 1978.

I may be wrong, but I don't think it was only HC games where the IFA was allowed by FIFA to call itself "Ireland". I have a feeling it was all non-World Cup (and subsequently) European Championship matches i.e. competitions in which both Associations may enter teams. Therefore IFA Friendlies may also have been "Ireland" games.
Anyhow, having attended my first NI game in 1970, chants of "C'mon Ireland" were still often heard at Windsor in the succeeding few years, or songs where "Ireland" scanned better than "Northern Ireland".
In fact, I'm sure the first proper football song I remember was "Ireland, Ireland, I'd walk a million miles, for one of your goals, Oh Ireland" (Kids should ask their Granda about Al Jolson's Mammy!)

Anyhow, all of the above will no doubt be dismissed by 'the usual suspects' on this Board as just more "Orange-tinted bigotry" on the part of the IFA and its fans...

[seanfhear]

Not entirely so (though the IFA considered itself the "senior" body. For in "re-union" meetings held in the 20's etc, the IFA was prepared to recognise the authority of the FAIFS within its own jurisdiction etc, subject to certain conditions (see more, below).

Not so (as CDG correctly points out). In fact, the FAI picked a number of NI-born players, including before 1946 (eg Harry Chatton).
For more information, see JCD's excellent blog entry:
http://nifootball.blogspot.com/2006/...ionalists.html



Readers may be interested to know why the FAI intervened and "influence" had to be brought to bear; indeed more generally, why so many ROI-born players volunteered to play for the IFA - sometimes even when this clashed with FAI call-ups.

Between Partition and the 1950's (at least), IFA games in the Home Championships were often much more prestigious than those played by the FAI - remember, England and Scotland were giants of the game in those days.

Secondly, IFA away games in Eng/Scot/Wales were usually more convenient for Irish players with GB clubs.

Third, many such players were earning their living with Belfast clubs, including Linfield(!), Belfast Celtic and Glentoran - arguably three of the four biggest clubs in Ireland at the time.

Moreover, the IFA treated "Free State" players at least as well as those from NI.
For evidence, click on the individual Blog entry (above) for Tommy Breen.
Or see the career of the great Johnny Carey. For not only was Carey made Captain by the IFA, choosing to play for them over the FAI, but he even joined the British Army when WWII broke out, on the basis that Britain (Man.U) had given him a warm welcome and a good living, so he owed it to them to reciprocate!
Or this there is this extract from an interview with Aston Villa's Con Martin (another IFA Captain):

Con was another dual internationalist. He played six times for Northern Ireland from 1946 to 1950 when the split was finally made between the FAI and the northern IFA who from then on were only able to recruit players born in their respective jurisdictions. Matters had come to a head during the 1950 World Cup campaign when some players (including Martin) represented both countries. Extreme pressure was put on the Irish players involved by the FAI to declare themselves in future only for the Republic.

Con was very unhappy about it: “I always had a great relationship with the IFA. We were treated very well and I always liked playing for them but the night before the game in Wrexham (when Northern Ireland played Wales in a World Cup tie) I got a call from Dublin asking me to refuse to play. I said that it was difficult to give an answer because this was my work, my profession.

“However, when I returned to Aston Villa the morning after the game I was approached by the chairman who asked me to refuse to play for Northern Ireland again. Surprised at this coming from him I asked why and he said that Villa would not be welcome in the Republic if I continued to play for Northern Ireland. At the time there was a big connection between Villa and Shamrock Rovers and it was Rovers who were making the running on this issue… and about his time I had got a lot of threatening letters and was called a Judas for playing for 20 pieces of silver. Some of the other players were reluctant to follow me but eventually they all did.”
http://irishabroad.com/news/irishpos...thOf220308.asp

* - Remember, too, that many of the Southern players picked by the IFA after 1921 had actually been born in the 26 counties before Partition i.e. whilst it (IFA) was unquestionably the sole authority over football in Ireland.



I may be wrong, but I don't think it was only HC games where the IFA was allowed by FIFA to call itself "Ireland". I have a feeling it was all non-World Cup (and subsequently) European Championship matches i.e. competitions in which both Associations may enter teams. Therefore IFA Friendlies may also have been "Ireland" games.
Anyhow, having attended my first NI game in 1970, chants of "C'mon Ireland" were still often heard at Windsor in the succeeding few years, or songs where "Ireland" scanned better than "Northern Ireland".
In fact, I'm sure the first proper football song I remember was "Ireland, Ireland, I'd walk a million miles, for one of your goals, Ireland, Ireland" (Kids should ask their Granda about Al Jolson's Mammy!)

Anyhow, all of the above will no doubt be dismissed by 'the usual suspects' on this Board as just more "Orange-tinted bigotry" on the part of the IFA and its fans...

I do not see how or why anyone would want to argue with your post.

[gspain]

Fair enough.

However the FAI was formed prior to the creation of the Irish Free State and the stated mandate you mention above seems to be that of the Football Association of the Irish Free State (formed as a condition for FIFA membership) rather than the motivation behind the establishment of the FAI a couple of years earlier. The Football Association of the Irish Free State reverted back to calling itself the FAI in the 1930s and it's here we see the FAI resuming a role as FA for the whole island challenging the IFA's perceived position as such.

The FAI was formed on June 1st 1921 in Molesworth Hall.

This was before the Treaty negotiations but 2 years after the first Dail which wasn't Internationally recognized.

A French club travelled to Dublin in 1923 to play Bohemians and Pioneers which was the first International recognition. We didn't play Internationals until 1924.

Where is the evidence for the FAI challenging the IFA as the Football association for the whole island? According to Byrne it was the IFA that considered itself the FA for the whole island and the FAI who were trying to establish their independence.

I would be very interested in this from a point of historical accuracy.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Not entirely so (though the IFA considered itself the "senior" body). For in "re-union" meetings held in the 20's etc, the IFA was prepared to recognise the authority of the FAIFS within its own jurisdiction etc, subject to certain conditions (see more, below).

Not so (as CDG correctly points out). In fact, the FAI picked a number of NI-born players, including before 1946 (eg Harry Chatton).
For more information, see JCD's excellent blog entry:
http://nifootball.blogspot.com/2006/...ionalists.html



Readers may be interested to know why the FAI intervened and "influence" had to be brought to bear; indeed more generally, why so many ROI-born players volunteered to play for the IFA - sometimes even when this clashed with FAI call-ups.

Between Partition and the 1950's (at least), IFA games in the Home Championships were often much more prestigious than those played by the FAI - remember, England and Scotland were giants of the game in those days.

Secondly, IFA away games in Eng/Scot/Wales were usually more convenient for Irish players with GB clubs.

Third, many such players were earning their living with Belfast clubs, including Linfield(!), Belfast Celtic and Glentoran - arguably three of the four biggest clubs in Ireland at the time.

Moreover, the IFA treated "Free State" players at least as well as those from NI.
For evidence, click on the individual Blog entry (above) for Tommy Breen.
Or see the career of the great Johnny Carey. For not only was Carey made Captain by the IFA, choosing to play for them over the FAI, but he even joined the British Army when WWII broke out, on the basis that Britain (Man.U) had given him a warm welcome and a good living, so he owed it to them to reciprocate!
Or there is this extract from an interview with Aston Villa's Con Martin (another IFA Captain):

Con was another dual internationalist. He played six times for Northern Ireland from 1946 to 1950 when the split was finally made between the FAI and the northern IFA who from then on were only able to recruit players born in their respective jurisdictions. Matters had come to a head during the 1950 World Cup campaign when some players (including Martin) represented both countries. Extreme pressure was put on the Irish players involved by the FAI to declare themselves in future only for the Republic.
Con was very unhappy about it: “I always had a great relationship with the IFA. We were treated very well and I always liked playing for them but the night before the game in Wrexham (when Northern Ireland played Wales in a World Cup tie) I got a call from Dublin asking me to refuse to play. I said that it was difficult to give an answer because this was my work, my profession.
“However, when I returned to Aston Villa the morning after the game I was approached by the chairman who asked me to refuse to play for Northern Ireland again. Surprised at this coming from him I asked why and he said that Villa would not be welcome in the Republic if I continued to play for Northern Ireland. At the time there was a big connection between Villa and Shamrock Rovers and it was Rovers who were making the running on this issue… and about his time I had got a lot of threatening letters and was called a Judas for playing for 20 pieces of silver. Some of the other players were reluctant to follow me but eventually they all did.”
http://irishabroad.com/news/irishpos...thOf220308.asp

* - Remember, too, that many of the Southern players picked by the IFA after 1921 had actually been born in the 26 counties before Partition i.e. whilst it (IFA) was unquestionably the sole authority over football in Ireland.



I may be wrong, but I don't think it was only HC games where the IFA was allowed by FIFA to call itself "Ireland". I have a feeling it was all non-World Cup (and subsequently) European Championship matches i.e. competitions in which both Associations may enter teams. Therefore IFA Friendlies may also have been "Ireland" games.
Anyhow, having attended my first NI game in 1970, chants of "C'mon Ireland" were still often heard at Windsor in the succeeding few years, or songs where "Ireland" scanned better than "Northern Ireland".
In fact, I'm sure the first proper football song I remember was "Ireland, Ireland, I'd walk a million miles, for one of your goals, Oh Ireland" (Kids should ask their Granda about Al Jolson's Mammy!)

Anyhow, all of the above will no doubt be dismissed by 'the usual suspects' on this Board as just more "Orange-tinted bigotry" on the part of the IFA and its fans...

Wouldn't have a problem. In fact it begs the question in the past why more efforts were not made to reunite the teams back in the last half-century, over and above some of the spurious 'rationale' trotted out on here, earlier in the thread.

Because from a sporting viewpoint it's been to both associations detriment in that longer-term. When there could have only been one;Eleven men from the Shankhill for all that matters.

[EalingGreen]

I do not see how or why anyone would want to argue with your post.

That's because you're not one of what I term "the usual suspects", Sean!

[ifk101]

Where is the evidence for the FAI challenging the IFA as the Football association for the whole island? According to Byrne it was the IFA that considered itself the FA for the whole island and the FAI who were trying to establish their independence.

I would be very interested in this from a point of historical accuracy.

The FAI was formed prior to signing of the Anglo-Irish Treaty and the establishment of the Irish Free State (which briefly included Northern Ireland). Unless the FAI was formed by a group of clairvoyants they could not have known how the island would be divided up or indeed, if the island was to be divided. The name change of the FAI to the FA of the Irish Free State and back again to the FAI coincides with important political events. The first name change coincides with the establishment of the Irish Free State and the change back to the FAI coincides with the Constitution of Ireland which claimed sovereignty over Northern Ireland.

[gspain]

Not entirely so (though the IFA considered itself the "senior" body). For in "re-union" meetings held in the 20's etc, the IFA was prepared to recognise the authority of the FAIFS within its own jurisdiction etc, subject to certain conditions (see more, below).

Not so (as CDG correctly points out). In fact, the FAI picked a number of NI-born players, including before 1946 (eg Harry Chatton).
For more information, see JCD's excellent blog entry:
http://nifootball.blogspot.com/2006/...ionalists.html



Readers may be interested to know why the FAI intervened and "influence" had to be brought to bear; indeed more generally, why so many ROI-born players volunteered to play for the IFA - sometimes even when this clashed with FAI call-ups.

Between Partition and the 1950's (at least), IFA games in the Home Championships were often much more prestigious than those played by the FAI - remember, England and Scotland were giants of the game in those days.

Secondly, IFA away games in Eng/Scot/Wales were usually more convenient for Irish players with GB clubs.

Third, many such players were earning their living with Belfast clubs, including Linfield(!), Belfast Celtic and Glentoran - arguably three of the four biggest clubs in Ireland at the time.

Moreover, the IFA treated "Free State" players at least as well as those from NI.
For evidence, click on the individual Blog entry (above) for Tommy Breen.
Or see the career of the great Johnny Carey. For not only was Carey made Captain by the IFA, choosing to play for them over the FAI, but he even joined the British Army when WWII broke out, on the basis that Britain (Man.U) had given him a warm welcome and a good living, so he owed it to them to reciprocate!
Or there is this extract from an interview with Aston Villa's Con Martin (another IFA Captain):

Con was another dual internationalist. He played six times for Northern Ireland from 1946 to 1950 when the split was finally made between the FAI and the northern IFA who from then on were only able to recruit players born in their respective jurisdictions. Matters had come to a head during the 1950 World Cup campaign when some players (including Martin) represented both countries. Extreme pressure was put on the Irish players involved by the FAI to declare themselves in future only for the Republic.
Con was very unhappy about it: “I always had a great relationship with the IFA. We were treated very well and I always liked playing for them but the night before the game in Wrexham (when Northern Ireland played Wales in a World Cup tie) I got a call from Dublin asking me to refuse to play. I said that it was difficult to give an answer because this was my work, my profession.
“However, when I returned to Aston Villa the morning after the game I was approached by the chairman who asked me to refuse to play for Northern Ireland again. Surprised at this coming from him I asked why and he said that Villa would not be welcome in the Republic if I continued to play for Northern Ireland. At the time there was a big connection between Villa and Shamrock Rovers and it was Rovers who were making the running on this issue… and about his time I had got a lot of threatening letters and was called a Judas for playing for 20 pieces of silver. Some of the other players were reluctant to follow me but eventually they all did.”
http://irishabroad.com/news/irishpos...thOf220308.asp

* - Remember, too, that many of the Southern players picked by the IFA after 1921 had actually been born in the 26 counties before Partition i.e. whilst it (IFA) was unquestionably the sole authority over football in Ireland.



I may be wrong, but I don't think it was only HC games where the IFA was allowed by FIFA to call itself "Ireland". I have a feeling it was all non-World Cup (and subsequently) European Championship matches i.e. competitions in which both Associations may enter teams. Therefore IFA Friendlies may also have been "Ireland" games.
Anyhow, having attended my first NI game in 1970, chants of "C'mon Ireland" were still often heard at Windsor in the succeeding few years, or songs where "Ireland" scanned better than "Northern Ireland".
In fact, I'm sure the first proper football song I remember was "Ireland, Ireland, I'd walk a million miles, for one of your goals, Oh Ireland" (Kids should ask their Granda about Al Jolson's Mammy!)

Anyhow, all of the above will no doubt be dismissed by 'the usual suspects' on this Board as just more "Orange-tinted bigotry" on the part of the IFA and its fans...

I obviously lost my train of thought above. I was aware of the NI born players from the 1930's. Indeed I've met the grandson and daughter of one of them. My understanding had been that the likes of Connolly, Hoy, Chatton, Lunn etc were picked because they were playing in the League of Ireland. Jackie Browne disproves that theory.

1946 was a clear policy shift as 5 NI players (Davy Cochrane withdrew injured) incl some with no obvious RoI connections were picked for the Iberia tour. Subsequent to that no NI born players were picked.

Games normally didn't clash in those days so it wasn't a case of having to make a choice.

BTW Glentoran weren't a particularly big club in the 30's & 40's. Only 1 title win in 1931 until they did the double in 1951.

There is some evidence notably in Jimmy Dunne and Alex Stevenson that the FAI didn't pick some southern born players in the 30's while they were being picked by NI. I never saw this explained but it seems strange that these players were not good enough for an FAI side.

[gspain]

The FAI was formed prior to signing of the Anglo-Irish Treaty and the establishment of the Irish Free State (which briefly included Northern Ireland). Unless the FAI was formed by a group of clairvoyants they could not have known how the island would be divided up or indeed, if the island was to be divided. The name change of the FAI to the FA of the Irish Free State and back again to the FAI coincides with important political events. The first name change coincides with the establishment of the Irish Free State and the change back to the FAI coincides with the Constitution of Ireland which claimed sovereignty over Northern Ireland.

Do you have any references or are you just trying to make political points?

The breakaway was by the Leinster Football Association with the backing of the Munster FA. It was because no northern clubs were travelling to Dublin for games (reason given was political unrest during the War of Independence).
The title used in Molesworth Hall was "The Football League of the Irish Free State".

Byrne also refers to an 8 point document in a reconciliation meeting between the 2 associations in the Shelbourne Hotel after the establishment of the Irish Free State. The FAI proposal was that the IFA become the North of Ireland FA and each maintain jurisdiction of the clubs in their areas. Shared control of International selections. The IFA reaction was "Impossible" and they proceeded to attempt to get the FAI blacklisted. French and subsequent FIFA recognition and the 1924 Olympic invite were key to the survival of the fledgling association.

[geysir]

The 8 points are interesting. Shared control over international selections?
Why did the IFA react so emphatically in the negative to the reconciliation overtures?

[EalingGreen]

Where is the evidence for the FAI challenging the IFA as the Football association for the whole island? According to Byrne it was the IFA that considered itself the FA for the whole island and the FAI who were trying to establish their independence.

I would be very interested in this from a point of historical accuracy.

According to Malcolm Brodie in his (1980) "100 Years of Irish Football", there is evidence that the FAI did attempt to establish its own all-island jurisdiction, or at least establish itself as the senior authority on the island, with the IFA assuming a subordinate position.

There were a series of meetings in the 1920's, aimed at healing the split (or at least establishing good working relations between the two Associations).

Brodie implies that Minutes of these meetings were either not taken/agreed, or do not survive. One such meeting in the Shelbourne Hotel (1924?) typically ended with no agreement between the two sides.

However, the IFA delegation was described by Brodie as being "baffled" that immediately after the Meeting, the FAI delegation was able to produce a typed Statement, which outlined their conclusions (i.e. the clear implication being that this must have been prepared before they even met the IFA).

The Statement reads as follows (my own comments in bold):

1. All clubs and organisations having their headquarters in the Irish Free State to be under the control of the FAI;
Fair enough
2. Any club or organisation with its headquarters outside the Irish Free State to be eligible for membership of the FAI on the usual conditions;
Ah. Any reciprocal right for the IFA? No? Thought not.
3. The present Irish Football Association to become the North of Ireland FA (or some similarly named body);
Does anyone else see where this is going?
4. The relations between the FAI and the Northern Ireland FA to be similar to be similar to the relations between the FA of England and the Army FA;
Assuming they mean in that respective order, it should be noted that the Army FA has a subordinate relationship to the "FA of England" [sic]
(Note also the reluctance to refer to the "English FA"; too reminiscent to the "Irish FA"? Closer to the "FA of Ireland", perhaps?)
5. Except in competitions in which clubs from both associations participate, the North of Ireland FA to have full control over all clubs and other organisations directly affiliated to it;
Gee thanks.
6. In competitions open to and participated by clubs from the two Associations and in all international matters the controlling bodies to consist of representatives of the two Associations and a scale to be arranged;
Note that the relevant scale is to be "arranged", not "agreed"...
7. Suspensions of clubs, organisations and players, officials, etc, by the Association to which they are affiliated to be recognised and maintained by the other Association on a scale to be arranged;
Hmmm. I wonder would this singularly reciprocal and equal provision have anything to do with the fact that the IFA had previously been successful in using its influence within the International Board to suspend/de-register etc players from the Free State when playing in the UK?
8. The North of Ireland FA to have the right to nominate members on all International Selection Committees on a scale to be arranged.
No mention of the right of the FAI to nominate members then? I presume we must take that as a 'given', then. Hmmm, I wonder what the split on the (yet-to-be-arranged) scale was going to look like?

It is no wonder that Capt. Wilton, the leader of the IFA delegation, was to describe this Statement (I'm tempted to call it "Easter Proclamation II" ) as "Impossible" and "out of the question", causing them to leave the Conference.

Brodie goes on: "They [IFA] had advocated that instead of shifting the offices from Belfast to Dublin the IFA Executive Committe would meet alternately in Belfast and Dublin. That was rejected.So, too, was a promise that Divisional Associations in the South would have greater powers to deal with clubs under their control and a guarantee that there would be a reasonable share of matches in Dublin went unheeded as well. The gulf had widened"

Some background may explain why the IFA could/should not accept being the subordinate body to some new Association based in Dublin.

For one thing, Irish football having first been established in Belfast, that city was (is?) the "capital of Irish football". It had the oldest club (Cliftonville) and most of the major clubs (Linfield, Belfast Celtic, Glentoran). It also had superior stadia (Windsor, Paradise and Grosvenor). And within the Free State, only the Leinster FA had anything like the membership and organisation to challenge that in NI.
In fact, rather than being a 6 vs 26 dispute, this had at least as much the character of a "turf war" between two regions.
Or, as Larry Sheridan of the FAI delegation saw it:
"The Leinster FA is not prepared to play second fiddle to the Irish FA"
Of course, he might well "bang the drum" for Leinster, since he wasn't likely to get many followers from the rest of the Free State. For as Brodie points out, at this stage alone the Co.Antrim FA alone had 200 member clubs, whereas the whole of the Munster FA had 10 (yep, ten).
Nonetheless, the Antrim FA and the MFA were apparently expected to have equal representation on the Council!
(I wonder how many there were in Connaught? )
Moreover, whilst the leading Dublin clubs had withdrawn from the Irish League in 1921, afaik several were to continue to enter the Irish Cup for a couple of years.
Meanwhile, newspapers in the Free State were describing matches in Dublin as being under the "Football League of Ireland", while games in Belfast were merely "Belfast and District"...

Now I have no doubt that the IFA had its own heavy representation of "hardliners", but whatever demands they were making, they at least kept them confined to the privacy of the Conference rooms.

Finally, in closing his Chapter on this matter, Brodie makes the following interesting observation:
"Relations [between IFA and FAI] are now more cordial. There is co-operation on most issues, whilst a dialogue at office-bearer level has started on the possibility of a united team for international matches, although political unrest makes any agreement unlikely in the foreseeable future".

Regarding the latter point, if Brodie thought it "unlikely" in 1980, I wonder what term he'd use nearly thirty years later?

[EalingGreen]

The 8 points are interesting. Shared control over international selections?
Why did the IFA react so emphatically in the negative to the reconciliation overtures?

See my post #1123, which crossed that of Gspain's "in the ether".

[gspain]

The 8 points are interesting. Shared control over international selections?
Why did the IFA react so emphatically in the negative to the reconciliation overtures?

Byrne refers to the IFA's response as predictable stating it responded with "Impossible" "These demands are out of the question"

I can only assume it saw the fledging FAI as an upstart with little hope of succeeding given the power of the IFA and in particular the FA & less so SFA at the time. The FAI was ostracised but luckily FIFA was formed and gave them an outlet.

The FAI were blacklisted and no matches agreed between any of the home countries and the FAI. No transfers were authorised between FAI clubs and UK clubs. I don't kno9w when this ban was lifted but Inte rLeague games v the Welsh League (1924) and Irish League (1925) did start within a ciouple of years.

[gspain]

According to Malcolm Brodie in his (1980) "100 Years of Irish Football", there is evidence that the FAI did attempt to establish its own all-island jurisdiction, or at least establish itself as the senior authority on the island, with the IFA assuming a subordinate position.

There were a series of meetings in the 1920's, aimed at healing the split (or at least establishing good working relations between the two Associations).

Brodie implies that Minutes of these meetings were either not taken/agreed, or do not survive. One such meeting in the Shelbourne Hotel (1924?) typically ended with no agreement between the two sides.

However, the IFA delegation was described by Brodie as being "baffled" that immediately after the Meeting, the FAI delegation was able to produce a typed Statement, which outlined their conclusions (i.e. the clear implication being that this must have been prepared before they even met the IFA).

The Statement reads as follows (my own comments in bold):

1. All clubs and organisations having their headquarters in the Irish Free State to be under the control of the FAI;
Fair enough
2. Any club or organisation with its headquarters outside the Irish Free State to be eligible for membership of the FAI on the usual conditions;
Ah. Any reciprocal right for the IFA? No? Thought not.
3. The present Irish Football Association to become the North of Ireland FA (or some similarly named body);
Does anyone else see where this is going?
4. The relations between the FAI and the Northern Ireland FA to be similar to be similar to the relations between the FA of England and the Army FA;
Assuming they mean in that respective order, it should be noted that the Army FA has a subordinate relationship to the "FA of England" [sic]
(Note also the reluctance to refer to the "English FA"; too reminiscent to the "Irish FA"? Closer to the "FA of Ireland", perhaps?)
5. Except in competitions in which clubs from both associations participate, the North of Ireland FA to have full control over all clubs and other organisations directly affiliated to it;
Gee thanks.
6. In competitions open to and participated by clubs from the two Associations and in all international matters the controlling bodies to consist of representatives of the two Associations and a scale to be arranged;
Note that the relevant scale is to be "arranged", not "agreed"...
7. Suspensions of clubs, organisations and players, officials, etc, by the Association to which they are affiliated to be recognised and maintained by the other Association on a scale to be arranged;
Hmmm. I wonder would this singularly reciprocal and equal provision have anything to do with the fact that the IFA had previously been successful in using its influence within the International Board to suspend/de-register etc players from the Free State when playing in the UK?
8. The North of Ireland FA to have the right to nominate members on all International Selection Committees on a scale to be arranged.
No mention of the right of the FAI to nominate members then? I presume we must take that as a 'given', then. Hmmm, I wonder what the split on the (yet-to-be-arranged) scale was going to look like?

It is no wonder that Capt. Wilton, the leader of the IFA delegation, was to describe this Statement (I'm tempted to call it "Easter Proclamation II" ) as "Impossible" and "out of the question", causing them to leave the Conference.

Brodie goes on: "They [IFA] had advocated that instead of shifting the offices from Belfast to Dublin the IFA Executive Committe would meet alternately in Belfast and Dublin. That was rejected.So, too, was a promise that Divisional Associations in the South would have greater powers to deal with clubs under their control and a guarantee that there would be a reasonable share of matches in Dublin went unheeded as well. The gulf had widened"

Some background may explain why the IFA could/should not accept being the subordinate body to some new Association based in Dublin.

For one thing, Irish football having first been established in Belfast, that city was (is?) the "capital of Irish football". It had the oldest club (Cliftonville) and most of the major clubs (Linfield, Belfast Celtic, Glentoran). It also had superior stadia (Windsor, Paradise and Grosvenor). And within the Free State, only the Leinster FA had anything like the membership and organisation to challenge that in NI.
In fact, rather than being a 6 vs 26 dispute, this had at least as much the character of a "turf war" between two regions.
Or, as Larry Sheridan of the FAI delegation saw it:
"The Leinster FA is not prepared to play second fiddle to the Irish FA"
Of course, he might well "bang the drum" for Leinster, since he wasn't likely to get many followers from the rest of the Free State. For as Brodie points out, at this stage alone the Co.Antrim FA alone had 200 member clubs, whereas the whole of the Munster FA had 10 (yep, ten).
Nonetheless, the Antrim FA and the MFA were apparently expected to have equal representation on the Council!
(I wonder how many there were in Connaught? )
Moreover, whilst the leading Dublin clubs had withdrawn from the Irish League in 1921, afaik several were to continue to enter the Irish Cup for a couple of years.
Meanwhile, newspapers in the Free State were describing matches in Dublin as being under the "Football League of Ireland", while games in Belfast were merely "Belfast and District"...

Now I have no doubt that the IFA had its own heavy representation of "hardliners", but whatever demands they were making, they at least kept them confined to the privacy of the Conference rooms.

Finally, in closing his Chapter on this matter, Brodie makes the following interesting observation:
"Relations [between IFA and FAI] are now more cordial. There is co-operation on most issues, whilst a dialogue at office-bearer level has started on the possibility of a united team for international matches, although political unrest makes any agreement unlikely in the foreseeable future".

Regarding the latter point, if Brodie thought it "unlikely" in 1980, I wonder what term he'd use nearly thirty years later?

I don't have Brodie to hand but obviously a very credible reference. Byrne differs slightly on some points but they are mainly in agreement.

1 & 2) refer only to clubs within the Irish Free state.

The blacklisting and suspensions etc seem to have happened after this meeting according to Byrne.

No year given by Byrne but he seems to imply that the visit of French club AC of Gallia to Dublin in March 1923 was subsequent to this meeting.

The first International outlet for the FAI (then Freestate Association) was in 1924 with the invitation to the Paris Olympics and subsequent games v Estonia (Paris) and USA (Dublin) . These were considered as full Internationals up until the 1960's. Now the FAI consider Italy 1926 as our first senior International.

[EalingGreen]

1 & 2) refer only to clubs within the Irish Free state.

Not according to Brodie, whereby No.2 clearly states that clubs outside the Free State be permitted to join the FAI.
I suspect that may refer to Belfast Celtic, whose Directors had previously recommended quitting the IFA over an Irish Cup dispute only to be outvoted by their Members, and possibly some other sides from Nationalist areas? It might conceivably also been directed at Cliftonville(!), on the basis that the President of the FAIFS was only a certain Sir Henry McLaughlin KBE, a Belfastman and former C'ville half-back (This is pure - and idle - speculation on my part, mind, in an effort to get Mr. Parker excited!).
Anyhow, there was no mention of a reciprocal right for FS clubs to remain with the IFA, even though it would greatly have facilitated clubs in Donegal, or those clubs south of the border who were members of the Fermanagh & Western FA, for example.

The blacklisting and suspensions etc seem to have happened after this meeting according to Byrne.

No year given by Byrne but he seems to imply that the visit of French club AC of Gallia to Dublin in March 1923 was subsequent to this meeting.

Fair enough. Brodie does not specify the date of the Shelbourne Hotel meeting.
In which case, the sanctions etc would indicate a clear hardening of attitudes by the IFA, following Shelbourne.

Nonetheless, from Point No.s 2 & 4, plus the terminology employed, allied with the fact that this Statement was produced immediately after the meeting broke up, the clear inference must be that the FAI at this stage only envisaged a new governing body for Ireland, which was to based in Dublin, with the IFA (or "North of Ireland FA" ) to occupy a regional/subsidiary position, akin to that of eg the Leinster or Munster FA's.

Now I accept that several Leinster/Dublin clubs had grievances against the IFA in Belfast, many of them no doubt well-founded. Nonetheless, when one considers the history and distribution of the game in Ireland, plus the fact that NI was to remain within the UK (at least pro tem), never mind the influence the IFA enjoyed within the International Board, the combination of arrogance and naivety on behalf of the FAI is pretty breathtaking (imo).

Btw, the leader of the IFA delegation was Captain Wilton. From his background etc, he might be expected to have been a a hardliner, but as JCD's blog entry indicates, he was actually a conciliatory and widely respected individual (the "UVF" cited has no connection with the present-day gang of vermin, other than the name, I hasten to add):
http://nifootball.blogspot.com/2007/...es-wilton.html

[gspain]

Not according to Brodie, whereby No.2 clearly states that clubs outside the Free State be permitted to join the FAI.
I suspect that may refer to Belfast Celtic, whose Directors had previously recommended quitting the IFA over an Irish Cup dispute only to be outvoted by their Members, and possibly some other sides from Nationalist areas? It might conceivably also been directed at Cliftonville(!), on the basis that the President of the FAIFS was only a certain Sir Henry McLaughlin KBE, a Belfastman and former C'ville half-back (This is pure - and idle - speculation on my part, mind, in an effort to get Mr. Parker excited!).
Anyhow, there was no mention of a reciprocal right for FS clubs to remain with the IFA, even though it would greatly have facilitated clubs in Donegal, or those clubs south of the border who were members of the Fermanagh & Western FA, for example.

Fair enough. Brodie does not specify the date of the Shelbourne Hotel meeting.
In which case, the sanctions etc would indicate a clear hardening of attitudes by the IFA, following Shelbourne.

Nonetheless, from Point No.s 2 & 4, plus the terminology employed, allied with the fact that this Statement was produced immediately after the meeting broke up, the clear inference must be that the FAI at this stage only envisaged a new governing body for Ireland, which was to based in Dublin, with the IFA (or "North of Ireland FA" ) to occupy a regional/subsidiary position, akin to that of eg the Leinster or Munster FA's.

Now I accept that several Leinster/Dublin clubs had grievances against the IFA in Belfast, many of them no doubt well-founded. Nonetheless, when one considers the history and distribution of the game in Ireland, plus the fact that NI was to remain within the UK (at least pro tem), never mind the influence the IFA enjoyed within the International Board, the combination of arrogance and naivety on behalf of the FAI is pretty breathtaking (imo).

Btw, the leader of the IFA delegation was Captain Wilton. From his background etc, he might be expected to have been a a hardliner, but as JCD's blog entry indicates, he was actually a conciliatory and widely respected individual (the "UVF" cited has no connection with the present-day gang of vermin, other than the name, I hasten to add):
http://nifootball.blogspot.com/2007/...es-wilton.html

I'd love to see such a document if it exists today.

Byrne mentions that Captain James Wilton was later to be knighted and Henry McLaughlin KBE was the FAI president and presenter. Wilton is quoted as saying "the new organisation would be ostracised internationally if they persisted in their foolhardiness" Maybe he knew about the 33 team World Cup. Byrne doesn't seem to have a date either but subsequently talks about the blacklisting and the visit of French side AC Gallia.

I very much doubt if Cliftonville were being considered despite Henry's connections. They would still have been a gentleman amateur team then and presumably mainly unionist.

Belfast Celtic were out of the Irish League at the time - left in 1920 returned for 24/5. A team from west Belfast Alton United entered and won the FAI Cup in 1923.

[The Fly]

GR, to bring the protracted 'discussion' between you and I full circle and back to the original point of contention - you agreed with the claim that people who oppose Northern Ireland's existance, i.e Nationalists, support/elect to play for ROI representative sides. You proceeded to provide "evidence" to support what is a spurious claim.

Once more, the reason is because those fans/players don't have a sense of statehood/national identity with Northern Ireland. Why?...there isn't one.
That's the problem!

[ArdeeBhoy]

Fly,
Please Don't.

As those contributions are the most patronising and contrived on this thread!
You're best off rationalising elsewhere.

[geysir]

By the sounds of it, Sir Henry the FAI president was a Unionist.
Interesting story around the split. One or probably both parties were not with serious intent on maintaining football unity except under their umbrella.
I wonder how the other main sports like rugby didn't suffer the same (mis)fortune.

[co. down green]

Btw, the leader of the IFA delegation was Captain Wilton. From his background etc, he might be expected to have been a a hardliner, but as JCD's blog entry indicates, he was actually a conciliatory and widely respected individual (the "UVF" cited has no connection with the present-day gang of vermin, other than the name, I hasten to add):

Wilton's son Claude, was a prominemt member of the civil rights movement in Derry in 1968, and in later years became a member of ther SDLP.

Ivan Cooper, who was a close friend of Claude's, said: "He was one of the legends of this city. He did not choose the path of his family. His father was a Unionist Mayor of Derry but Claude chose a different path, the path of civil rights. Instead of playing rugby he played football with the common five eights of this city. He was there on October 5, 1968 and was prominent in every facet of working-class life in this city."

[gspain]

Wilton's son Claude, was a prominemt member of the civil rights movement in Derry in 1968, and in later years became a member of ther SDLP.

Ivan Cooper, who was a close friend of Claude's, said: "He was one of the legends of this city. He did not choose the path of his family. His father was a Unionist Mayor of Derry but Claude chose a different path, the path of civil rights. Instead of playing rugby he played football with the common five eights of this city. He was there on October 5, 1968 and was prominent in every facet of working-class life in this city."

Given his father was capped 7 times for Ireland - see EG's link

http://nifootball.blogspot.com/2007/...es-wilton.html

he was hardly playing football instead of rugby to distance himself from his father. His father seems to have been well thought of by everyone as well judging from the blog above.