Norn Iron rubbish part 23452346526

[EalingGreen]

Every single player? Is there some sort of tagging system in place in NI that allows the FAI to quickly catalogue between who's Nationalist, who's Unionist etc etc?

Of course not - which was why I made sure to qualify my observation with "to the best of my knowledge".

However, if you can supply me with an example of even one NI-born player who may be from a Protestant/Unionist background, who has played for/trained with/been approached by the FAI in the last 20 years, I would be very surprised.

The list of possible candidates now runs well into double figures, so statistically at least, there would be bound to be some (assuming the FAI was tracking all candidates equally).
And since in NI it is often (sadly) possible to discern someones likely background from a few cursory details, if there were many (any?), it would be pretty evident.

The FAI picks anybody that's good enough and wants to play for us regardless. You know this.

Indeed I know it, but that is not what I was getting at (as I suspect you know).
That is, in the past, the IFA has been criticised eg for not being interested in approaching young lads from (Nationalist) Derry, for instance.
What evidence have you that the FAI is interested in approaching youngsters eg from Unionist East Belfast?
Seeing as this area has always been a real hotbed of talent (Blanchflower, Bingham, Best, McIlroy etc), why has there not been even one such player who has appeared on the FAI's radar?

The game has evolved since this supposed Gentleman's Agreement came into existance.

The game has involved in many ways, but principles such as "honour" and "fair play" are unchanging - as your fellow ROI fans so loudly complained in the wake of the "Hand of Gaul".

You probably were alive when it happened and remember it like yesterday so can you tell us if this supposed Gentleman's Agreement was binding for eternity? And who exactly shoke hands on this agreement?

No, I'm not that old, but the issue has been discussed on this MB before. I'm pretty sure it was Gspain who outlined the arrangement - if I have mischaracterised it, I am sure he will correct me (and I will be happy to accede).

[EalingGreen]

What has the FAI got to do with Nationalists from Northern Ireland not feeling adequately represented within the IFA (assuming that is the case)?

Eh? That is not what I was saying - or anything like it.

I haven't read every word of every post so I could be quoting you out of context.

You don't need to read "every word of every post", just re-read the post to which you are replying.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Well, if you say differently, produce the evidence to support your spurious allegation.

Er, this was covered in my earlier answer.
Which I know you're not responsible for.

But until there's public access to all parts of that MB or its archive, we'll never be able to highlight this!
If only they weren't so paranoid....

[co. down green]

Nonsense! It would only be wrong for such people to get involved in the IFA if they allowed their personal opinions to inform the conduct of their official functions.
Otherwise, in the light of eg the present Catholic abuse scandal, it might be considered "wrong" for any senior member of the Catholic church to be involved in running the FAI or GAA etc.
Therefore, if you have any evidence that Kennedy (or others within the IFA) have discriminated against Cathilics/Nationalists etc, you had better either produce it, or retract.

Are you on drugs?

[dantheman]

Too many posts to reply to but in summary:

• We don't need an all-Ireland team, we have a better one defacto. We do not need to bring sectarianism to the FAI setup. The ROI will continue to represent the ROI (and qualified players) and anyone from NI who wishes to play for it, icnluding Protestants. This myth that the FAI will stay away from the Protestant community has already been debunked, Alan Kernaghan. The NI team will represent those from NI (and qualified players) who wish to represent it.
• FAI scouts will rightly appear more and more in the north. OWC fans need to let that go.
• The Gentleman's agreement never had any relevance
• I haven't met a Nationalist from the North who feels bitter rivalry towards the Republic's team either
• If there was an All Ireland team, noone in GB would blink. Most would probably favour it. It does not affect Wales/Scotland fans in any way. NI is a place apart in all things, including football.
• The IFA should issue a statement that they are stopping opposition to letting the future Darren Gibsons playing for the ROI, no apology needed for their behaviour just lets move on. They should also acknowledge that people from NI wish to play for the ROI for good reason.
• There is no onus on the FAI to change anthems or flags as none are contentious. The issues are all up north. Separately the IRFU should look at its anthem used in Dublin. The Ireland team is not the ROI, as Paul O'Connell and his mates in the NDC should note!
• There is no need for the IFA to change the flag as it not its business. That lies with Stormont. They have got rids by and large of the Union Jack, which has no place at a NI match. Anyone who brings a UJ to Windsor Park should be thrown out.
• There is an onus to change the Anthem from GSTQ to another. Most of the NI fans posting here in fairness seem to favour this, but I totally disagree with them when they say they have to consider the views of fans who wish to keep it. There is no excuse. The IFA seems not to favour change, despite a report it commissioned. The people of NI have a right to know why this is not the case, not just NI fans (as the IFA is supposed to, in theory, represent them).
• As stated, only England and NI do not have their own anthem. And only NI's is contentoius. I acknowledge that some also sing No Surrender during GSTQ, so you're in esteemed company there! Playing a UK anthem while campainging against a UK team is a bit silly no. It is very relevant
• NI and ROI are not foreign under UK law. I'll not explain again.
• There are two teams on this island, who used to play as one. In most other sports, Ireland is represented as one.he FAI was forced to be set up after the bigotted IFA made life impossible for the Dublin clubs. NI and the ROI merging are no the same as Germany and China merging. Only a loyalist bigot would make such a stupid analogy, ffs grow up.
• Saying the IFA are orange tinted is hardly inaccurate. Their chairman is an Orangeman. He was elected by people who knew the image that would send out. This hardly looks good if they are trying to implement a FFA campaign. Saying it is orange tinted and nearly there are hardly contradictions either. The IFA used to be very orange now its somewhat orange. One day it may be neutral? Not difficult to grasp.
• There was no rule on the Linfield rulebook stating they could not sign Catholic players. Neither had Rangers. But in practice this was the policy they implemented. No other major club in Ireland used this policy in practise.The IFA knew this when they signed the deal with them. Linfield have sorted themselves out, but when that deal is gone we can move on.
• The OWC website is much less open to debate than this one. The tern taigs is not used, but beggars is. Ironic for a state maintained by the public sector (ie English taxpayer)! Nationalists are welcome to post there, provide you do not ask any real questions about the institutions, on which point you are hounded by wolves. The NI fans group is mainly a closed shop. The have a section for "mainlanders" ffs! Their £5 donation goes straight to the UVF. That last point wasn't true btw. There is no apology from me EG, and yes I have attended matches this decade (last one 0-1 friendly against Canada)
• Songs like the Billy Boys and the Sash were very common until recent years. They have almost completely disappeared from the terraces, as have the Rangers tops. Some milder stuff like Rule Britannia remains. I can't remember any UDA/UVF flags to be fair.

There is a strong, separate, case for an AIL. One club e.g Linfield should not be able to stop this should the clubs desire it. The Setanta Cup is dying a death because nothing is at stake, an AIL may be different. The loss of European places would be a blessing in disguise for IL clubs, after their show this year!

Yeah!!!!!!!

[Not Brazil]

Er, this was covered in my earlier answer.
Which I know you're not responsible for.

But until there's public access to all parts of that MB or its archive, we'll never be able to highlight this!
If only they weren't so paranoid....

YOU said YOU had experienced the term "taigs" being "common place" - therefore, err, you must have access to enough of the Forum to state such a thing.

I contend that the term "taigs" is not "common place" in any derogatory fashion.

Put up, or shut up.

Nothing "paranoid" about it - ALL areas open to ANYONE who wishes to pay the small fee requested by the site owner for upkeep.

Paranoia is about imagining things in your head, isn't it?

[Not Brazil]

Probably not, but there will be an AI Cup of some sort.

It will be slightly different when 3,000 Dubs land up in Windsor I would think.

Every other Linfield fan I have spoken to is looking forward to it as they see it as the two biggest and most successful clubs locking horns.

I think so, too much tinkering. Which is why I would guarantee Rovers and Linfield will be drawn together to spark interest.

I hope there is an AI Cup of sort.

Brilliant if you brought 3,000 to Belfast - I hope we'd get slightly more tickets for Dublin than for the last time we played you there (when the Fat Controller had flowing blond locks, a twinkle in his eye, and an ability to score the winner) - we got NO tickets (but some "follow followed" anyway!)

I'll look forward to it if/when it happens - speaking personally, not in the same league as an important big Blues/Glens game.

If the Setanta goes ahead, and we get drawn together, it'll make a welcome change from playing Self Pity City (or whatever their new club is called).

[dr_peepee]

Eh? That is not what I was saying - or anything like it.

You don't need to read "every word of every post", just re-read the post to which you are replying.

You see, I ask this question because my team regularly gets castigated for being "unacceptable" to Northern Nationalists because of its (partisan) anthem and flags etc.

Therefore, as a fan of the ROI team, do you not agree that in order to be consistent, the FAI should replace their own (partisan) anthem and flag etc, so as to be equally acceptable to Northern Unionists?

Or is it only one of the two Irish international football teams which should be required to "jump through hoops" in order to justify their existence?

Give me some credit, man. I did read it. I still don't get your point. You brought up the fact that some people on here have cited that Nationalists in Northern Ireland don't feel adequately represented by the IFA. Baring in mind that not everyone who believes this are are calling for a 32 county team I don't think you argued the point, yet still cited double standards of critics of the IFA on this board.

[janeymac]

Nonsense! It would only be wrong for such people to get involved in the IFA if they allowed their personal opinions to inform the conduct of their official functions.

Otherwise, in the light of eg the present Catholic abuse scandal, it might be considered "wrong" for any senior member of the Catholic church to be involved in running the FAI or GAA etc.
Therefore, if you have any evidence that Kennedy (or others within the IFA) have discriminated against Cathilics/Nationalists etc, you had better either produce it, or retract.

P.S. I am (genuinely) curious to know exactly how "senior" an Orangeman Kennedy is. Can you enlighten me?

Is the Orange Order not a sectarian organisation? From what I know, its whole ethos is anti-catholic (rather than being pro-protestant). In most countries it would be a prohibited organisation because it discriminates against catholics. (And no, its not the same category of the Church of England, Presbyterian Church, or Catholic Church).

Equating members of the Orange Order to Catholic clery does not wash. Its not the aim of the catholic church to abuse children, while the raison d'etre of the Orange Order is anti-Catholic.

Gather Round has already explained the practical reasons why Unionists should make up a majority of the office bearers of the IFA.
However, that should surely only be a problem if, like Kennedy and his Orangeism (above), they use that to discriminate against non-Unionists.

Does not matter how senior he is in the Orange Order. In most normal countries, it would be outlawed.

Now notwithstanding that historically, at least one Catholic/Nationalist was elected to the position of President of the IFA, or that the team has had several Catholic managers (including the very first) etc, I accept that in the past the IFA has had a Unionist "slant" to it, and I condemn that.

Shocking statistic - with a population split of 55:45 - only one catholic in over a 100 years.

[Not Brazil]

[*]There is no need for the IFA to change the flag as it not its business. That lies with Stormont. They have got rids by and large of the Union Jack, which has no place at a NI match. Anyone who brings a UJ to Windsor Park should be thrown out.

The Union Flag is the Official Flag of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland - to ban anyone from carrying a Union Flag to a Northern Ireland game is lunacy.

[Newryrep]

Too many posts to reply to but in summary:

• We don't need an all-Ireland team, we have a better one defacto. We do not need to bring sectarianism to the FAI setup. The ROI will continue to represent the ROI (and qualified players) and anyone from NI who wishes to play for it, icnluding Protestants. This myth that the FAI will stay away from the Protestant community has already been debunked, Alan Kernaghan. The NI team will represent those from NI (and qualified players) who wish to represent it.
• FAI scouts will rightly appear more and more in the north. OWC fans need to let that go.
• The Gentleman's agreement never had any relevance
• I haven't met a Nationalist from the North who feels bitter rivalry towards the Republic's team either
• If there was an All Ireland team, noone in GB would blink. Most would probably favour it. It does not affect Wales/Scotland fans in any way. NI is a place apart in all things, including football.
• The IFA should issue a statement that they are stopping opposition to letting the future Darren Gibsons playing for the ROI, no apology needed for their behaviour just lets move on. They should also acknowledge that people from NI wish to play for the ROI for good reason.
• There is no onus on the FAI to change anthems or flags as none are contentious. The issues are all up north. Separately the IRFU should look at its anthem used in Dublin. The Ireland team is not the ROI, as Paul O'Connell and his mates in the NDC should note!
• There is no need for the IFA to change the flag as it not its business. That lies with Stormont. They have got rids by and large of the Union Jack, which has no place at a NI match. Anyone who brings a UJ to Windsor Park should be thrown out.
• There is an onus to change the Anthem from GSTQ to another. Most of the NI fans posting here in fairness seem to favour this, but I totally disagree with them when they say they have to consider the views of fans who wish to keep it. There is no excuse. The IFA seems not to favour change, despite a report it commissioned. The people of NI have a right to know why this is not the case, not just NI fans (as the IFA is supposed to, in theory, represent them).
• As stated, only England and NI do not have their own anthem. And only NI's is contentoius. I acknowledge that some also sing No Surrender during GSTQ, so you're in esteemed company there! Playing a UK anthem while campainging against a UK team is a bit silly no. It is very relevant
• NI and ROI are not foreign under UK law. I'll not explain again.
• There are two teams on this island, who used to play as one. In most other sports, Ireland is represented as one.he FAI was forced to be set up after the bigotted IFA made life impossible for the Dublin clubs. NI and the ROI merging are no the same as Germany and China merging. Only a loyalist bigot would make such a stupid analogy, ffs grow up.
• Saying the IFA are orange tinted is hardly inaccurate. Their chairman is an Orangeman. He was elected by people who knew the image that would send out. This hardly looks good if they are trying to implement a FFA campaign. Saying it is orange tinted and nearly there are hardly contradictions either. The IFA used to be very orange now its somewhat orange. One day it may be neutral? Not difficult to grasp.
• There was no rule on the Linfield rulebook stating they could not sign Catholic players. Neither had Rangers. But in practice this was the policy they implemented. No other major club in Ireland used this policy in practise.The IFA knew this when they signed the deal with them. Linfield have sorted themselves out, but when that deal is gone we can move on.
• The OWC website is much less open to debate than this one. The tern taigs is not used, but beggars is. Ironic for a state maintained by the public sector (ie English taxpayer)! Nationalists are welcome to post there, provide you do not ask any real questions about the institutions, on which point you are hounded by wolves. The NI fans group is mainly a closed shop. The have a section for "mainlanders" ffs! Their £5 donation goes straight to the UVF. That last point wasn't true btw. There is no apology from me EG, and yes I have attended matches this decade (last one 0-1 friendly against Canada)
• Songs like the Billy Boys and the Sash were very common until recent years. They have almost completely disappeared from the terraces, as have the Rangers tops. Some milder stuff like Rule Britannia remains. I can't remember any UDA/UVF flags to be fair.

There is a strong, separate, case for an AIL. One club e.g Linfield should not be able to stop this should the clubs desire it. The Setanta Cup is dying a death because nothing is at stake, an AIL may be different. The loss of European places would be a blessing in disguise for IL clubs, after their show this year!

Yeah!!!!!!!

Far too reasonable a post

[ArdeeBhoy]

YOU said YOU had experienced the term "taigs" being "common place" - therefore, err, you must have access to enough of the Forum to state such a thing.

I contend that the term "taigs" is not "common place" in any derogatory fashion.

Put up, or shut up.

Nothing "paranoid" about it - ALL areas open to ANYONE who wishes to pay the small fee requested by the site owner for upkeep.

Paranoia is about imagining things in your head

Yeah right, like they'd welcome hundreds of people, unlike them on there.

You get them to put up the access and we'll then 'shut up'!
Or what was that about 'freedom of choice' ??

[Predator]

• There is no need for the IFA to change the flag as it not its business. That lies with Stormont. They have got rids by and large of the Union Jack, which has no place at a NI match. Anyone who brings a UJ to Windsor Park should be thrown out.

Actually, the onus is on the IFA, in my understanding. The 'Ulster banner' isn't official at all in N.Ireland and I think it's within the power of the IFA to change their representative flag. As Not Brazil rightly points out, technically, the Union flag is the official flag, but that doesn't necessarily make it acceptable in my opinion. Maybe they can do what Alex Maskey did, and have a Tri-colour and a Union flag.

[ArdeeBhoy]

The Union Flag is the Official Flag of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland - to ban anyone from carrying a Union Flag to a Northern Ireland game is lunacy.

But thought you lot were against a 'Uk' team??

What's wrong with a neutral flag as suggested recently??

[janeymac]

Actually, FIFA leaves the four British Associations pretty much to themselves to sort out such "boundary disputes", which they (the four Associations) manage to do quite amicably, by way of freely negotiated and observed agreement.

Wait until some stroppy young millionaire footballer lands them in court about them abusing his human right to express his national identity.

Of course, such an arrangement can only obtain on the basis that the participants are willing to behave in a respectful and, ahem, "gentlemanly" fashion - something which would probably preclude the FAI ever deciding to renounce their breakaway, and rejoin the IFA...

You mean the penny dropped with the FAI that they were going to be in serious trouble in the courts if they didn't do something about the 'gentleman's agreement.'

P.S. If you knew your history, you would be aware that the four British Associations do not "keep a whole FIFA department going"; rather, it was we who kept the entire organisation (FIFA) going, when it faced bankruptcy following WWII (or "The Emergency", as you might better know it)

How can the world of football ever forget - its up there with England winning WW11 on their own and '1966'. Now that you mention the "Emergency" - I presume you are suitably thankful to the Free State for sending ambulances & fire engines etc. to save Belfast and to Dev for persuading Hitler to stop bombing our people there (since the RAF couldn't be arsed defending them).

[Not Brazil]

Yeah right, like they'd welcome hundreds of people, unlike them on there.

You get them to put up the access and we'll then 'shut up'!
Or what was that about 'freedom of choice' ??

Basically, you have been unable to substantiate your spurious allegations.

There's no "we'll" about it - it was YOU, and YOU alone, who made the allegation.

Indeed, your allegation regarding the "common place" usage of the term "taigs" has been refuted by dan (whom, it appears is able to "access all areas" on "that MB"

He states above:

"The term taigs is not used"

Now, are you telling me that dantheman is really a Unionist?

[Not Brazil]

But thought you lot were against a 'Uk' team??

What's wrong with a neutral flag as suggested recently??

We are against an All UK team

I'd be happy enough with just a St Patrick's Cross flag myself, but, hey - sure didn't thon Red Hand belong to a fearless Gaelic Chieftan who fought those evil Brits?

Sssh - don't tell the Uber Prods that.

[Not Brazil]

Maybe they can do what Alex Maskey did, and have a Tri-colour and a Union flag.

Maybe that's what will happen the "inevitable", singular, "United" Ireland team comes about, eh?

[Predator]

I'd prefer a St Patrick's Cross flag myself, but, hey - sure didn't thon Red Hand belong to a fearless Gaelic Chieftan who fought those evil Brits?

Sssh - don't tell the Uber Prods that.

Ha, yeah! Pretty much. It's an old Irish symbol!

The 'Uber Prods' must love Tír Eoghain!

[dantheman]

Basically, you have been unable to substantiate your spurious allegations.

There's no "we'll" about it - it was YOU, and YOU alone, who made the allegation.

Indeed, your allegation regarding the "common place" usage of the term "taigs" has been refuted by dan (whom, it appears is able to "access all areas" on "that MB"

He states above:

"The term taigs is not used"

Now, are you telling me that dantheman is really a Unionist?

The term taigs is not used on the OWC website