Norn Iron rubbish part 23452346526

[janeymac]

James Connolly?

And look at what happened to him for his trouble! (though perhaps he considered himself to be Irish anyway).

[geysir]

That's strange - both my late parents (Northern Irish born) held Irish Passports. I can assure you neither of them "declared an oath of allegiance" to the Constitution of the Republic Of Ireland.

I don't know what your evidence is supported by.
My evidence is supported by the text of the 1956 ACT, the interpretations of this act by the highest legal minds and its unchallenged application up to the time of the GFA.

Irish Statute Book

Citizenship

6.—(1) Every person born in Ireland is an Irish citizen from birth.


Formalities to be complied with in certain cases

7.—(1) Pending the re-integration of the national territory, subsection (1) of section 6 shall not apply to a person, not otherwise an Irish citizen, born in Northern Ireland on or after the 6th December, 1922, unless, in the prescribed manner, that person, if of full age, declares himself to be an Irish citizen or, if he is not of full age, his parent or guardian declares him to be an Irish citizen. In any such case, the subsection shall be deemed to apply to him from birth.
(2) Neither subsection (2) nor (4) of section 6 shall confer Irish citizenship on a person born outside Ireland if the father or mother through whom he derives citizenship was also born outside Ireland, unless—
( a ) that person's birth is registered under section 27, or
( b ) his father or mother, as the case may be, was at the time of his birth resident abroad in the public service.

As can be read, a declaration of citizenship had to be made. In this declaration was the text to uphold the constitution. In the Dept of For. Affairs, in the application for passport for NI born, this extra requirement was mandatory.

[Not Brazil]

As can be read, a declaration of citizenship had to be made. In this declaration was the text to uphold the constitution. In the Dept of For. Affairs, in the application for passport for NI born, this extra requirement was mandatory.

Have you access to a copy of the said declaration?

[geysir]

No - refused to protect our autonomy.

Good move, for once, by the IFA.

That may be your interpretation. But autonomy was not challenged by the FIFA compromise. At best, you could claim in a mistaken belief that the autonomy was under attack and that was the reason for the IFA rejection of the compromise.
However, my interpretation that the 2 associations had a stubborn belief in their position re the statutes of eligibility carries much more gravitas
The belief of the IFA was not based on autonomy, it was based on (mistaken) interpretation of the eligibility statutes. It was based on protecting on what they regarded as the pool of players available to be selected for the NI team.

As has been demonstrated, the IFA have been proved very willing to apply the rules of eligibility as they exist, to the selection of players for their team without any threat coming to the autonomy of the IFA.

[geysir]

Have you access to a copy of the said declaration?

Check your grandparents, surely once upon a time they would have had a copy framed and displayed
I have had no personal need to declare citizenship or apply for a passport under those circumstances.

It is surely enough for the purposes of my main point, to accept the central point of how the subtle changes that came about in the GFA affected FIFA´s position re eligibility.
The significance of that subtle change was missed by me for quite some time until somebody I knew kept pointing it out and observed how it was mentioned by the FIFA legal head (Herrera?).

[Not Brazil]

That may be your interpretation. But autonomy was not challenged by the FIFA compromise.

With two Associations picking from exactly the same pool of players, throughout the 32 Counties, creating, de facto, Ireland "A" and Ireland "B" teams, you think that would have continued long?

[Not Brazil]

It is surely enough for the purposes of my main point, to accept the central point of how the subtle changes that came about in the GFA affected FIFA´s position re eligibility.
The significance of that subtle change was missed by me for quite some time until somebody I knew kept pointing it out and observed how it was mentioned by the FIFA legal head (Herrera?).

In reality, the "subtle changes" are largely irrelevant, in the context that anyone born in Northern Ireland who wanted to "declare" themselves an Irish Citizen pre GFA could and did.

In essence, nothing important changed.

IF FIFA is basing it's Irish eligibility solution on the text of the GFA, there could be many interesting twists long into the future.

[Gather round]

It seems you cannot detect tone in people's posts

Maybe not. But remember this is the internet, not a face-to-face conversation. You- and I, and everyone else- need to explain what we mean...

Once again, for which party do you expect those people to vote for? Which party presents a viable alternative at this time? Does a 'Northern Ireland Nationalist Party' exist GR? I'll resist answering for you

I listed numerous parties they could vote for. All are 'viable'. I react to how people vote as I described above.

you do post a lot more on foot.ie than you do on your own supporters website - OWC

True recently (although I do read OWC regularly, two or three times per week). There are various reasons for this- not least that there isn't a regular thread on OWC effectively saying 'let's abolish the NI side'.

In addition to this, if you believe that the SDLP and SF are "basically single issue parties", then I'll assume, quite reasonably, that you believe the UUP and DUP to be likewise

Got it in one. Did you really think I thought otherwise?

Change happens in increments, not in one foul swoop! I recommend that you read the works of Edmund Burke

I have thanks, at school, university and since. It's one FELL swoop btw.

It's not the same in England, I'll ask you again; are you being deliberately dense? The assembly here in NI does not operate on the 'first past the post' system, unless you have forgotten. It is based on the principle of power-sharing under the D'Hondt method to ensure that Northern Ireland's largest political communities, the Unionist and Nationalist communities both participate in governing the region

Not at all dense, thanks. I understand your basic points for all the semi-coherent waffle you've wrapped them in. I know quite well how d'Hondt works.

The only 'substantial' cross-community party in Northern Ireland is the Alliance Party, which officially designates itself as 'Other'. Despite this, it has remained a minnow in NI politics. Are you keeping up this time GR?

Yes, thanks. I know equally well how the APNI having first joined it as a student many years ago. Why are you telling me/ the thread at tedious length what you learned in Politics GCSE? I already know it and it's irrelevant to the issue- IFA, remember?

If you don't want to be patronised, don't do it yourself, there's a good chap?

Does the fact that FIFA recognises the right of NI born players to represent the ROI (and vice versa?) not suggest that they may be sympathetic to two associations (consensually) merging, perhaps recognising unusual if not unique circumstances?

Quite possibly. The consensus, obviously is the stumbling block. And recent events suggest we can hardly rely on FIFA to act reasonably in every case...

An AI league could easily happen without an AI team, no?

Aye, I could see it happening mid-term IF the Setanta Cup was a sustained success.

In the longer term however, it may prove to be a good thing for the future of football in NI - if it promotes a certain self-examination within the IFA and Northern Ireland footballing circles in general

I'd agree with the broad point- self-analysis is no bad thing- and the specific. We should have dropped the case a lot earlier than we did. What's needed, I think, is a mutual agreement with the FAI that once a player has represented internationally as an adult- over 18- he should be tied. U-19, U-21, friendlies as well as qualifiers.

Those who leave Ireland realize the divisions are ridiculously superficial once they go to a place like Canada or the U.S. where the cultural makeup is amazingly diverse

Ask any of your mates in say, Detroit if they ever visit the nearby town of Windsor (no pun intended) over the river. You know what separates them? That's right, a border...

Working together we can achieve so much more than we can apart- okay we may lose a bit of our old identity, an identity based on differences rather than common ground- but we will create a new identity as one Irish team, stronger, more competitive, and most importantly, united

Nice slogan. But you've already got a united Ireland team, without abolishing our team.

I think that you guys (EG, GR and NB) fundamentally misunderstand the proposition. We are talking about MERGER. In this sense ROI fans who advocate this idea are equally suggesting that the ROI team be "abolished"

No, we understand it perfectly well. You can call it what you like, but we'll continue quite reasonably to see it as a planned takover which we oppose totally. Whether or not you regard your own team and FA as having been abolished at the same time.

Your argument has nothing to do with football, but everything to do with a Unionist siege mentality

Don't be absurd. It's about abolishing the NI team!

where the NI team is one of the few remaining embelms of seperateness. As someone who was brought up supporting NI first, this is eaxctly what makes me uncomfortable

I'm sorry you feel uncomfortable, we will continue to try to make you and others feel welcome. But...

If the NI team is nothing more than Orangism at play, then quite frankly it probably should be abolished

It clearly isn't, so equally frankly there's a limit to the extent to which any reasoned discussion with you on the issue is possible.

Slovenia approx. 6 m to select from

Less than 3 million, I believe. Do you mean Slovakia?

More than likely why Irish people do well in these organisations is that we are not England and are seen to be neutral, whereas the IFA are just about hanging in there because of the English influence. Without English support, I'd say no notice whatsoever would be taken of the Home Nations

Make your mind up. Either we're not England as well (and thus seen to be neutral, like you), or we're reliant on English support to be noticed. We can hardly be both at the same time.

[geysir]

In reality, the "subtle changes" are largely irrelevant, in the context that anyone born in Northern Ireland who wanted to "declare" themselves an Irish Citizen pre GFA could and did.

In essence, nothing important changed.

Whether you regard that as irrelevant is in fact irrelevant.
The subtle change to entitlement to automatic citizenship was not irrelevant to FIFA as demonstrated by the mention of this clause in the GFA by FIFA legal department - automatic equal right to permanent citizenship no matter where born.
It is questionable whether FIFA would have continued to support the rights of NI born to declare for the FAI, if their permanent citizenship rights were less automatic because of place of birth.

IF FIFA is basing it's Irish eligibility solution on the text of the GFA,there could be many interesting twists long into the future

"IF" and "could" being the operative words in that piece.
There is no such Irish eligibility solution. The FIFA statutes on eligibility were framed before there was "Irish problem" and reworded afterwards to support previous stated interpretations. The text of the GFA is that part of the Irish constitution re citizenship, which satisfies FIFA statutes.
It does not take a brain surgeon to work out that should the Irish constitution change re citizenship then the FIFA eligibility requirements may not be met.
But FIFA will not be changing their eligibility statutes based on the that.


My point is that association unity is a much more important factor (ahead of political unity) should an All Ireland team be up for consideration.

[Not Brazil]

Whether you regard that as irrelevant is in fact irrelevant.
The subtle change to entitlement to automatic citizenship was not irrelevant to FIFA as demonstrated by the mention of this clause in the GFA by FIFA legal department - automatic equal right to permanent citizenship no matter where born.
It is questionable whether FIFA would have continued to support the rights of NI born to declare for the FAI, if their permanent citizenship rights were less automatic because of place of birth.

On the contrary, in fact, the fact that I consider the "subtle changes" irrelevant, is, in fact, relevant in the context of what you are saying.

Pre GFA, what was there in FIFA Statutes to hinder someone born in Northern Ireland, "declaring" themselves a Citizen of the Irish Republic, and being eligible, therefore, to play for the Republic Of Ireland, given that after such a "declaration", Citizenship of the Irish Republic was inferred from birth?

A case of "there you go Sir, I was an Irish Citizen from birth"

[Not Brazil]

My point is that association unity is a much more important factor (ahead of political unity) should an All Ireland team be up for consideration.

I was thinking of something completely different to you viz a viz Citizenship and Eligibility ie. British Citizens (which is how many born in Northern Ireland would remain in a "Unified" Ireland, for generations), and whom they could play for.

Anyhow - for another day that one.

For the umptenth time, there IS an All Ireland team - that doesn't need to be "considered" - it's here, it's now. It represents the FAI.

The other Association on the island, the IFA, has no intentions whatsoever of "unifying" with any other Association. Neither do the supporters of the IFA's International representative sides.

Those wishes should be respected, and the principle of choice (as clarified by FIFA in their deliberations over Irish Citizens in Northern Ireland) upheld.

[dantheman]

Don't post here much. I am a northern nationalist who supports the Republic, and do so for a number of reasons. All my family are from Wicklow or Kerry and I am living & working in Dublin, and intend to remain. I consider NI to be my 2nd team (I also would cheer for Scotland), and would like to have seen both teams qualify for the world cup. NI were my joint favorite team (ie I had no preference) until November 1993, but that's another (well-documented) story.

I think anyone who is trying to change minds of unionist minded "NI fans" are wasting their time. I mean this as distinct from "football fans from Northern Ireland", a much larger group including myself.
Most of the current "NI fans" by nature will see little wrong with the current anthems issue (the flag issue is probably not entirely the IFA's fault) that alienates people like myself from supporting NI. I sometimes here nice words like "I would like a neutral anthem but hate Danny Boy/Ireland's Call so what can you do? ha ha ha etc" but there is no real desire on the ground for any action in this regard.

There is also a thinly veiled hatred for the Republic, and by extension nationalist Ireland (which includes myself!). If you visit their website, Our Wee Country, you will see this blatantly. Indeed the poster Ealing Green on this website put this lovely ditty up there (and as such I find his early statement here that he was not posting here "Due to personal reservations about the lack of objectivity" to be somewhat hypocritical):

"You put your left hand in,
You put your left hand out
In, Out, In, Out,
Shake it all about,
You hand the ball to Gallas,
Who gives it a clout,
And that put the Beggars Out!

Oh Terry Terry Henry
Oh Willy Willy Gallas
Oh Dopey Swedish Linesman
Oh they put the Beggars Out, Out, Out!"

Charming. Despite this prevailing attitude there is a silent minority who avoid the politics and for them as such I give some support for the team, in the same sense that NI's leading goalscorer went to school in the same town as me. Many coaches work tirelessly for the IFA coaching kids in rough areas of Belfast and other Northern towns/cities, and great credit must be given to them for the time and effort spent.

As regards bringing the two associations together again, I do not think this should happen in the near future. It would not be good for the FAI or geninue Irish supporters, and that is all I care about really. With the Darren Gibson case being rightly resolved in favour of the FAI, northern nationlists in the future have a clear path to represent a proper international team.

The point that some posters make about destroying 'their' team is valid to a certain extent, and I can see their point if one views the team with such blinkers ie that for example Derry and Donegal are foreign from each other. This in untrue, as an act pass by their (UK) parliament testifies:
http://www.wiki.ie/wiki/Ireland_Act_1949

Indeed with a similar blinkered approach, you can understand the FAI poaching argument. Sadly for the reasons stated above, 'their' team will never be 'my' team. And most "NI fans" do not seem to bothered about that. In this regard I know a lot of people from all over NI who live in the nationalist community, and while hostility to the team has receded somewhat, actual support is still very low. There are exceptions btw, I know 2 people who support NI (out of many!)

The IFA launched a football for all campaign during the last few years which has addressed some of the minor, but sadly few of the major, issues regarding the perception of the international team throughout Northern Ireland.
With this in mind, their actions regarding the Darren Gibson case was quite depressing and sadly predictable. It demonstrated that the IFA wanted a Unionist-tinted team, but that nationalists had to play for it or else they had no international career. They need to either:

-Drop the Darren Gibson case and opposition to northern nationalists play for the Republic and they can quitely shelve the pretense of Football For All. I think they will end up doing this.

or

-Embrace the anthems issue once and for all, and implement the recommendations of the report that they commissioned (Sunday football has since been permitted) and face down the predictable Unionist opposition to this.


Independently, I woud like to see an all-Ireland league. I think comments people would make about the hooligan element increasing are somewhat mistaken, most trouble to me seems to happpen in Linfield/Glentoran or Rovers/Bohs matches (i.e city derbies) and as such there would be little difference in this context. Whether it would improve the quality of the LOI immediately I doubt at the moment, but it would certainly improve interest over a number of years.

[geysir]

Pre GFA, what was there in FIFA Statutes to hinder someone born in Northern Ireland, "declaring" themselves a Citizen of the Irish Republic, and being eligible, therefore, to play for the Republic Of Ireland, given that after such a "declaration", Citizenship of the Irish Republic was inferred from birth?

A case of "there you go Sir, I was an Irish Citizen from birth"

You do not understand the meaning of infer
Pre GFA
one could not infer that a person, proven born in NI, was an Irish citizen. Whereas one could infer that a person proven born in the Republic was an Irish citizen.
The removal of that subtle difference between the rights of those born in the Republic and NI, took on value once the IFA challenged the right of NI born to declare for the FAI.

Just like we can infer that anybody born in NI is eligible to play for NI without any documentation of UK citizenship because the inference is based on the automatic rights contained within the UK Nationality act. Proof of birth is enough to support that inference.

[Not Brazil]

You do not understand the meaning of infer
Pre GFA
one could not infer that a person, proven born in NI, was an Irish citizen. Whereas one could infer that a person proven born in the Republic was an Irish citizen.
The removal of that subtle difference between the rights of those born in the Republic and NI, took on value once the IFA challenged the right of NI born to declare for the FAI.

Just like we can infer that anybody born in NI is eligible to play for NI without any documentation of UK citizenship because the inference is based on the automatic rights contained within the UK Nationality act. Proof of birth is enough to support that inference.

We'll try again:

Pre GFA, what was there in FIFA Statutes to hinder someone born in Northern Ireland, "declaring" themselves a Citizen of the Irish Republic, and being eligible, therefore, to play for the Republic Of Ireland, given that after such a "declaration", Citizenship of the Irish Republic was applied from birth?

A case of "there you go Sir, I was an Irish Citizen from birth"

[The Fly]

Maybe not. But remember this is the internet, not a face-to-face conversation. You- and I, and everyone else- need to explain what we mean...

The answer is definately not. I have already explained numerous times the meaning in my posts, mostly I might add, for your benefit alone. Other posters seem to be able to grasp them quite easily

I listed numerous parties they could vote for. All are 'viable'. I react to how people vote as I described above.

Viable in a Northern Ireland context - I don't think so!
As your posts have already displayed how obtuse you are, your reactions to how people vote in NI doesn't surprise me.

True recently (although I do read OWC regularly, two or three times per week). There are various reasons for this- not least that there isn't a regular thread on OWC effectively saying 'let's abolish the NI side'.

Recently?.......hmmm.......you joined OWC on the 2nd of April, 2005. In this time you have posted 298 times. You joined foot.ie in April 2006, in this time you have posted 589 times - almost twice as much in considerably less time! OWC contains many more threads on the NI v ROI theme than foot.ie does, yet you are not compelled to post with the anyhere near the regularity with which you do here. This tells it's own story!

There isn't a regular thread saying 'lets abolish the NI side' on foot.ie.
On occasion, a thread appears which puts forward the idea of having one amalgated all-island side. Technically speaking this would also abolish the ROI side, or has that, along with clarity of thought and perception, escaped you as well.

Got it in one. Did you really think I thought otherwise?

It's hard to tell with you GR.

Not at all dense, thanks. I understand your basic points for all the semi-coherent waffle you've wrapped them in. I know quite well how d'Hondt works.

I did not mention d'Hondt to tell you how it works, I mentioned it to reiterate that the NI political system works along 'tribal' lines.
You're a bit dense in fairness.

Yes, thanks. I know equally well how the APNI having first joined it as a student many years ago. Why are you telling me/ the thread at tedious length what you learned in Politics GCSE? I already know it and it's irrelevant to the issue- IFA, remember?

The Alliance Party, as you know, has existed in NI for quite some time and has remained a minnow/fringe party ever since. Why?...because for the vast majority of the NI electorate it doesn't represent a 'viable' alternative. It's intentions may be laudable, but it doesn't reflect NI society.

The issue that sparked off this was not the IFA, but a lack of Northern Irish statehood/national identity.
You stated that:
"It follows from the tangible evidence that hundreds of thousands of people in Northern Ireland who don't 'identify' with it (probably the majority of them) demonstrate that lack of identity by by voting in every election for parties whose main political program is that, er Northern Ireland shouldn't exist."

Please clarify how you would expect the nationalist population of NI, and indeed the entire electorate of NI, to demonstrate their 'Northern Irish' identity.

Also, please explain how the SDLP's main political program is that NI should not exist. Were all those years under John Hume merely a front, masking his true intentions?

If you don't want to be patronised, don't do it yourself, there's a good chap?

I don't think that it is literally possible to be patronised by you GR.

[Riddickcule]

Wow, this thread really is getting out of hand.

[Not Brazil]

The point that some posters make about destroying 'their' team is valid to a certain extent, and I can see their point if one views the team with such blinkers ie that for example Derry and Donegal are foreign from each other. This in untrue, as an act pass by their (UK) parliament testifies:
http://www.wiki.ie/wiki/Ireland_Act_1949

Good shout that dantheman.

We have a Northern Ireland Supporters Club in Donegal.

Is someone born in Donegal entitled to British Citizenship as an automatic right?

Are they eligible to play for Northern Ireland - as I'm sure the sons of our SC members there would aspire to?

If not, does that make him/her "different" to a guy born in Derry?

If so, what's your point?

PS: Thon Irish Citizenship Act (1956) geysir posted earlier is very sexist indeed - remarkable, given the legal brains that must have gone into it's construction. Probably an illegal document, if it existed today.

[geysir]

We'll try again:
Pre GFA, what was there in FIFA Statutes to hinder someone born in Northern Ireland, "declaring" themselves a Citizen of the Irish Republic, and being eligible, therefore, to play for the Republic Of Ireland, given that after such a "declaration", Citizenship of the Irish Republic was applied from birth?

After you questioned the extra declaration needed for NI born needed pre GFA to obtain Irish citizenship, I took the time to provide exact relevant links and not a word of thanks was received for my efforts,
instead you resorted to a statement of its irrelevance anyway
So do your own research.
GFA 1998, check out what the FIFA statutes were at that time.

Under the 2004 statutes, citizenship was enough,
That citizenship eligibility issue was challenged by the IFA,
FIFA legal dept. copped onto the automatic rights to citizenship contained with the GFA, referred a number of times to automatic right to citizenship.
Conditional right to citizenship has a lesser value and could easily have fallen into the other FIFA statutes of eligibility where Association territory is referred to. Read up on it yourself

.

[Not Brazil]

After you questioned the extra declaration needed for NI born needed pre GFA to obtain Irish citizenship,

Yes - I'm curious to know what (declaring) "in the prescribed manner" entailed.

I do thank you for posting the link to the Act - it was informative, to a point.

In context of current discussions, I contend that it is largely irrelevant.

Edit:

I have discovered that (declaring) "in the prescribed manner" was never defined by the Govt of the Irish Republic, pertaining to Part 7 (1) of the 1956 Act - in other words, those from Northern Ireland, post 1956 Citizenship and Nationality Act, didn't have take any "oath of allegiance" in order to be an Irish Citizen.

[Not Brazil]

Under the 2004 statutes, citizenship was enough,
That citizenship eligibility issue was challenged by the IFA,
FIFA legal dept. copped onto the automatic rights to citizenship contained with the GFA, referred a number of times to automatic right to citizenship.
Conditional right to citizenship has a lesser value and could easily have fallen into the other FIFA statutes of eligibility where Association territory is referred to. Read up on it yourself

That's fine - you still haven't answered the question as to what in the FIFA Statutes was different, that would have precluded a player born in Northern Ireland, obtaining Citizenship of the Irish Republic, and declaring for the Republic Of Ireland International team, pre GFA.