Most of the player rating folks this morning admitting that they were harsh on Manning and that he was man of the match. After sleeping on it, he was the difference in the end. Neither goal happens without him.
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Most of the player rating folks this morning admitting that they were harsh on Manning and that he was man of the match. After sleeping on it, he was the difference in the end. Neither goal happens without him.
I agree - unlike Kenny (who had his system) - HH can adapt and try to work out what suits the players. I wouldn't let Keane or Duff near the job with a barge pole - they are both too volatile, do a lot of shouting and whatever about Keane (who I do think is very smart), Duff is lacking a lot of stuff between the ears.Quote:
Originally Posted by yurt
Manning has been excellent for Southampton this season - something seems to have clicked for him and hopefully it continues (it is possible that Still is a lot better than I think he is and and tapped into something that has got Manning motoring).Quote:
Originally Posted by rebelmusic
This was tried repeatedly under Kenny though and it didn't work at all. We ended up with three centre backs marking one central striker while other opposition attacking players were given all the time in the world to beat us down the wings and ping 30 yarders past Gavin Bazunu from outside the D, because our players were in the wrong parts of the field to stop it happening. And Paddy McCarthy's more recent efforts to set us up in a 3-4-3 before HH came along were similarly unsuccessful. We don't need to play three centre backs just because we have a lot of centre backs playing at a high level - it's a waste of a player really.Quote:
Originally Posted by MancIrishWolf
My view is that you actually have to think counterintuitively at times to solve problems. So if your problem is left back, you don't just solve it by not playing a left back, you put the best one you have in there (likely Manning) and make sure he's protected by a centre back and a defensive midfielder.
Similarly if your problem is in centre midfield, rather than just conceding the area you put a third man in there and win it through numbers because no two man combination we can play there will ever be good enough.
Wouldn't be too harsh on Idah for celebrating as he did.
In light of what he's been through over the past few weeks, and the criticism at club level especially, that must have been a huge release for him.
And it cost no more than what, 30 seconds?
The first half was atrocious. Doherty looks and plays like he's rather be anywhere else.
Night and day with the second half. It wasn't complicated stuff, just get it wide and knock it into the box, but against a team of a certain quality below, that's enought to rattle them, and it rattled Hungary, and we got the rewards.
Hopefully a confidence boost fpr the Armenia game.
I second the comments about stupid fouls. The kind of situation where the full back has the ball out on the wing, facing his own endline, with the winger pressuring him, and the defender is just begging to be touched from behind so that he can fall over and get a free kick, and they did it over and over. So so silly, but happens with almost every team.
Agree with everything you say here. The system of 4 4-2 is not good. Play 3 at the back and push another player further forward because we are too congested at the back.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant
Instead of playing the ball in our half we need to play it in our opponents half.
I'm good with playing a more direct style. It suits us because we cannot learn how to play any other way despite years of learning how to and failing the examinations given to us every time. Kenny tried and failed. End of story for the foreseeable future anyway.
Team selection against Hungary was bad. HH scored an own goal by selecting Doherty at LB. He also was too slow to introduce Ogbene and Johnson. They actually can make things happen for us unlike any of the others in the squad. We cannot afford to leave them on the bench
Which Keane ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant
Doherty at LB is an absolute nonsense. He's a centre-half now. Have courage and play Manning there.
Cullen and Knight, whilst being our two best CMs on paper, aren't complementary for some reason. I'd bring Taylor in, probably for Knight.
Of course, Molumby should be an option.
Leaving Molumby, Ebosele and Coleman out was stupid.
Let's be honest, there is absolutely no way that Phillips (in St Mirren, playing for the equivalent of a L2 side) would hold down a regular place in a Championship promotion-chasing side like WBA.
I would probably bring Johnston in for Szmodics.
Doherty hasn't played all that well as a left-back for us. So expecting him to play as a right-back is a bit of an ask ! Especially that he is not even playing full-back for Wolves now.
I'd have Taylor in for Cullen. I thought Cullen was woeful last night, his stupid YC topped off his night - I wasn't surprised he was hooked.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trequartista20
This thing about agricultural football / back to the days of Big Jack etc… I’m not buying at all. We moved the ball up the pitch exceptionally well at times and most of the time. Easier against 10 of course. We crossed it relentlessly but the crosses were from advanced positions well up the field and we moved it across the pitch well at times too. The second goal was from us moving the ball across the front of their defense/box and a bit of smarts and subtlety before getting a beauty to Idah. It wasn’t balls into the channels / lump it long like some of the detractors are claiming. Far from it actually. I enjoyed watching how we moved the ball last night in the second half.
I tend to agree. Knight is a solid 6 every game he plays for Ireland and although he doesn't light the world on fire, he doesn't really put a foot wrong and I can't think of a significant mistake he's made.
Cullen seems to have the same virus that Collins has when playing for Ireland. Neither of them seem to be able to bring their club form into the international setup. On the other hand Taylor seems to rise a level when he plays for us. I've watched him a lot for Ipswich and his confidence seems higher when playing for us.
Cullen and knight in general are too similar and I'd hazard a guess that if Cullen wasn't playing that Knight would step into that midfield leadership role that we've been crying out for a bit more.
I think the most disappointing thing for me in the second half was just how many headed efforts we had off target
As someone who made the Charlton comparison I think I should point out I don't consider/intend it to be in any way detracting. It was effective, it was high-energy, it was enjoyable to watch, it got the atmosphere going better than I can remember in a long time. It was pretty basic stuff at times, and I'd love to see us play like Mick Part I, but whatever.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
I watched the second half back again today and was seriously impressed with Manning's set piece deliveries. Far more consistently on the money than Brady's are. It's potentially a huge addition to our team for the next few years having a player who can do that and can also contribute from general play - and maybe even help with our left back problems.
Kind of makes you wonder how he was overlooked for so long given our glaring succession issues in that position.
I know he's not always been a starter at Southampton , but still and all
Definitely didn’t interpret your post that way but I’ve seen the references sprinkled all over online in the last 24 hours in a negative way. I agree that whatever it was the tempo was high and it got the blood pumping but it wasn’t Aldridge chasing the ball into the corner flags either! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Fair! That said, we could play a bit of ball under Charlton at times too (only at times, mind). The USSR game was the famous one, but I watched the infamous Norway 94 game over covid and was struck by how well we played in midfield (but were toothless in the last third). We've refined it a bit for sure - Kelleher wasn't lumping it up to the edge of the box for example - but there's a definite comparison there. And I posted earlier about a spell shortly after Hungary had the red card and how it felt like that Wembley game in 1991 - the sustained pressure clip that's often shown. It was very similar. Ball in the box, up for the challenge, the opposition clear, we win it back on half way and into the mixer again - no time for a breather for them, and we kept at it for 2-3 minutes. Just continuous pressure.
As osarusan said "against a team of a certain quality and below, that's enough to rattle them, and it rattled Hungary" - and it's also rattled Serbia, Azerbaijan and Denmark in the past few years too. I'm fine with that. And yeah, you look at sides like Georgia, say, and wonder how they can play such technically adept stuff and we can't. But there's more than one way to skin a cat.
(Actually, I'm seeing now you've gotten rid of your sig about rock and roll football - the second half last night might have been the first time we've really seen it under HH, and it minded me to go look for it)
One thing we do need to change - and I don't know how much we should really read into this - is that in eight of HH's nine competitive games so far, we've conceded the first goal. Finland at home was the only exception. Be nice to buck that trend on Tuesday.
I relly do think that all of this type of stuff indicates that there are issues between the ears. It lacks discipline, some sense, leadership (on the pitch), proper confidence. Fixable stuff tbh. Collins switching off for the 2nd goal, laziness by whoever didnt step out playing the 1st goal onside. Cullen getting booked when a red had already been shown, yeah the Hungarian wasnt leaving the pitch but do add to the delay. Idah, maybe some inexperience, but you get on with things not think about proving a point celebrating - charge back with the ball says more hen needing to win. Score for Swansea and milk the life out of it next weekend. It probably doesnt make a whole lot of difference but i'd play things down in public and have the time raring to go in private, not talking about must wins when we choke until we have throw caution to the wind. Its not new, under Trap eg we were stodgy v France at home 2009 but when we had to go for it in Paris we were world class so if someone can undo that mindset...Quote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
It was obviously a tactic but I thought too many of the crosses were from too deep, floated toward a back post, some looking more like an underhit switch than a cross. The equaliser came from a more whipped cross further advanced. There were also times that players that were wider and futher forward didnt get the ball and that diagonal ball was played instead, making it a 50/50 at best. Hungary didnt look confortable but the ultimately coped and scrambled for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
Anyways, if we start brightly on Tuesday, play a bit differently against different opposition, some change in setup we'll know there have been fixes and what were tactical instructions rather than just hopefuly attempts and playing percentages. I really fear teams breaking against us, for a long time now we just look like we're in a total panic, and thats what Armenia will be at.
Re the Cullen yellow I really think he was unlucky and that the ref thought he was Szmodicz.
Cullen did nothing wrong there whatsoever
We certainly have a better and more compact shape under HH compared to Kenny’s last year in charge, but what use is that if we consistently concede soft goals and give the opposition long periods of control? And it’s all very predictable and easy to read. 4-4-2 out of possession, a full back pushes up and a box midfield in possession. Repetitive, slow and laboured, no urgency, no aggression, no bite.
And just on the individuals, and as poor as Doherty was, Collins was worse. His first action in the game was to balloon a diagonal ball over the head of O’Brien – the tallest player on the pitch. His second action was to miss Doherty with a simple pass across the backline. The resultant throw-in started the sequence of play for the opening goal. Doherty was too slow coming out after clearing the ball, but where’s the communication and organisation from Collins? No heads up to O’Shea that the player he was tracking on the ball Doherty had cleared had drifted in behind him. The second goal is on Collins – that’s his area of the box and his man that scores unhindered. Hungary could have had a third goal in the first half – again loose marking on the part of Collins with their striker missing a free header on goal.
We have so many good options at CB …
That was exactly what I thought. A goal felt inevitable, as it did back in '91. OK, it took a bloody long time to come....Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
I'm being harsh here, but I don't think it was that good a header! He got up well and met it well but it was right into the middle of the goal. Keeper was poor for our first too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eirambler
Same here. I think Ogbene made a really positive contribution. A starter tomorrow, for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by yurt
Give him credit in fairness - as tets pointed out elsewhere, he did make a good run to get into the space and anticipate the cross/chance, and that's been a huge weakness of his game previously. Maybe it's stopped clock syndrome, but if so it was bloody well timed. And if it's a sign of improvement in his game, then great.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Ah no, I'm not knocking him, far from it. But it was a bit like Duffy's late goal against (Azerbaijan?). He met it brilliantly but it gave the keeper a glimmer of a chance to save it. But in reality, as both those goals show, from that distance all you need to do is meet it well and that's it, job done.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
I remember my pal joking after Duffy's goal, in context of Kenny trying to change the way we play, "the more things change the more they stay the same". You can say the same here. Late headed goal saves the day.
There's definitely a subset who use it that's for sure, appropriate given we appear to be trying to strong arm teams into submission.Quote:
Originally Posted by John83
Called it!Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingdom
I just googled itQuote:
Originally Posted by Kingdom
Are u saying Heil Hitler!!
Bit strange!!
Not at all, I was saying Heil Heimar! (I'm hoping someone draws the parallel with Hans Moleman here).Quote:
Originally Posted by Diggs246
I've no issue with anyone of colour, creed or nationality.
Ok no panic!
I like that 1991 comparison a lot actually. I’ll allow the jury to hear the testimony. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Feel the reason it didn’t work previously is that Kenny’s team invited pressure on themselves (possibly the manager’s nervousness transmitting through to the players), so it becomes a back five (the 30 yard strikes were amply a relying sitting too deep / defensive ineptitude from not closing down quick enough). If three at the back is played offensively / in a counter attacking manner like Palace, Wolves (of last season), Brentford & Forest have used it, it can be very effective. Especially, if under the tactical instruction for a Centre Half to step out to support the midfield against weaker teams, as Collins can do and has done for Brentford.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eirambler
We have no natural flat four full backs in the squad, apart from a bunch of converted wingers like Manning & Ogbene, so should use them like Munoz, Ait-Nouri, Semedo & Aina have been used at their respective clubs. All for playing a back four, however our midfield are too weak - 3-5-2 gives us much more cover in the centre, both defensively & offensively, whilst using the flanks as outlets
This is where HH is over-complicating things, by sticking square pegs into round holes, when he should be using the materials at his disposal, rather than trying to turn us into an Irish version of Pulis’s functional Stoke team with regimented positioning, rather than high pressure counter attacking playing to our strengths.
Hahhaa the Hans Coleman reference is amazing. "I was saying Boourns" :D :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Kingdom
Well Exhibit I is below. 22:30 to 25:30 - 12 crosses into the box, four key 50/50s won to get back possession, England with two touches in our half.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
I don't know is the full match from Saturday anywhere? I'd expect it to be a little bit less agricultural in fairness!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfM-uqSKbV0
Systems, formations, personnel. I try to look at the way great teams play and ask why can't we at least try to emulate them. Best team I've seen this year is PSG. What did they do well? They played with extreme precision and extreme speed. How did they hit those heights? They obviously got on the training ground and started off slowly, putting an emphasis on precise passing and movement of players (ie get away from your marker in order to provide a passing option for the man in possession). They perfected that slowly and then pushed their individual limits to speed up their play and still be effective. Did Ireland's coaching staff do anything like that or even think of it before Saturday? Don't think we'll match PSG any day soon but if we don't try such things nothing will change.Quote:
Originally Posted by MancIrishWolf
Well the first thing they really did was get a big fat cheque book out and hoover up a lot of top talent. Not really something we can do...Quote:
Originally Posted by mark12345
I think the point about square pegs and round holes is important. I can see the theoretical merit of picking Doherty at left back (experience) but apart from Portugal away I can’t really remember ever being happy with his performance there. And more often than any other player I’ve been underwhelmed by him, regardless of where he plays. He pulls a rabbit out of the hat every now and again and that plants the thought back in your mind that he warrants a place. But right from the start on Saturday he looked off it. Collins was too (stage fright?) and he was at left sided centre back, where he has looked clumsy previously. Gary Breen always says he looks much better at right sided CB. Given O’Shea’s ability to improvise at left back I’d have thought he’d be the better of the two to play left sided. I also think Collins should have buried that O’Brien cross mid-second half btw, adding more merit to Idah’s goal – you can’t score if you don’t get it on target! So that’s two individuals that were below par and in positions they’re not natural at. I was sceptical of recalling Brady at LB last year but he was a real breath of fresh air, showing how being well balanced is really important. It was such a great feature of Mick’s 2002 team.
But, yet again, the source of our first half general crapness was the total absence of a midfielder constantly demanding the ball. Is it really about numbers and formations? Cullen only ever wanted it in safe positions and I don’t think Knight and Azaz showed much bravery with the positions they took. That left us only able to push the ball wide or long. We played it wide, then back inside then back to Kelleher repeatedly. We never managed play through their lines, only wide of their lines. The extra man allowed us to keep doing this but with the advantage of being able to generate overlaps.
In the interest of improving our balance I’d go with a back 3 of O’Brien, Collins and O’Shea tomorrow, with Ogbene and Manning as wing backs. Or maybe keep O'Brien wide right and bring Scales in as left side of the back 3.
Just as an aside, I was really surprised our opener stood. It looked like Collins smashed his opponent in the face and I was sure it’d be overturned by VAR when I saw the replay on the big screen. I’ve seen them given as they say. I think HH’s assessment of the ref was correct: he was really annoyed with Hungary’s time wasting and theatrics and it felt to me that the marginal calls were going to go our way as a consequence.
I had no problem with Doherty at left back. I think he's been very solid when he's had to play there. My logic was that it forced him to be more focussed as he wasn't comfortable and so he was less prone to being too casual on and off the ball. Unfortunately, it was the worst of both worlds on Saturday. As has been pointed out, Collins beside him suffers a bit from the same malaise and they seemed to drag each other down. It's like they're so focussed on being cool and calm that they actually lose all sense of urgency. Both come across as needing someone in their ear constantly to get the best from them, and that's something this squad really lacks (maybe a larger symptom of the modern game, I think being loud on the pitch is coached out of young players).
After the first 15 minutes, whether Hungary backed off or being 2-0 down just forced some urgency things did start to improve. It took the best part of 40 minutes to get a couple of balls in to Ferguson, but once he got a few touches he showed he's sharp again. I'd agree with others that Azaz was frustrating, he'd make a good move find a bit of space and then just lose the ball sloppily. Manning had a great game, I think he's had issues in the past with focus, tactical awareness, discipline and couldn't win the trust of coaches, but he seems to have matured and brought his game to another level now. I can see why Kelleher got man of the match too though, he did make three crucial saves and was good overall.
Smdozic was very quiet and can't see him starting too many more games for us. Cullen was ok, I don't think he works well with Knight and there's a serious lack of physical presence with them beside each other. Knight is more dynamic but wouldn't trust him as a pure defensive midfielder. Cullen can pick a pass, but doesn't do it often enough. It's a shame Lawal isn't getting more game time in midfield because he does seem to have the physicality and defensive strength to be an asset there, but he's not getting enough time there at club level and it would have been asking too much to throw him in for such a critical game. If we're sticking with the same formation I'd like to see him start in Azerbaijan.
I still love Ogbene and what he brings, his attitude, pace, aggression are such assets. He won a couple or brilliant headers and put in a few ok balls too. It would be amazing if his final ball was better, but that's why he'll never be elite level, but he gives us something completely different and his versatility is an asset too. Hopefully he stays fit and has a good season. Delighted for Idah, I still think he has all the assets, but was really doubting if it was going to click. Not saying it'll suddenly all come good now, but with a fresh start and a bit of confidence maybe now is going to be his time. Although funnily enough, I spoke to someone who is very familiar with him and Johnny Kenny and he said he'd pick Kenny over him any day of the week and that Kenny has a higher ceiling.
Overall, it does seem like the fragility of the squad is still there. It's something Kenny couldn't iron out and HH seemed determined to fix it but yet they look worse at the start of games that ever. Kenny sides seemed to start well and fade, whereas HH sides seem to concede first and get better (although that's probably the better option I suppose). A win is essential on Tuesday for hope to linger on in any case.
It's on RTE playerQuote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu