We certainly have a better and more compact shape under HH compared to Kenny’s last year in charge, but what use is that if we consistently concede soft goals and give the opposition long periods of control? And it’s all very predictable and easy to read. 4-4-2 out of possession, a full back pushes up and a box midfield in possession. Repetitive, slow and laboured, no urgency, no aggression, no bite.
And just on the individuals, and as poor as Doherty was, Collins was worse. His first action in the game was to balloon a diagonal ball over the head of O’Brien – the tallest player on the pitch. His second action was to miss Doherty with a simple pass across the backline. The resultant throw-in started the sequence of play for the opening goal. Doherty was too slow coming out after clearing the ball, but where’s the communication and organisation from Collins? No heads up to O’Shea that the player he was tracking on the ball Doherty had cleared had drifted in behind him. The second goal is on Collins – that’s his area of the box and his man that scores unhindered. Hungary could have had a third goal in the first half – again loose marking on the part of Collins with their striker missing a free header on goal.
We have so many good options at CB …
That was exactly what I thought. A goal felt inevitable, as it did back in '91. OK, it took a bloody long time to come....Originally Posted by pineapple stu
I'm being harsh here, but I don't think it was that good a header! He got up well and met it well but it was right into the middle of the goal. Keeper was poor for our first too.
Same here. I think Ogbene made a really positive contribution. A starter tomorrow, for me.
Give him credit in fairness - as tets pointed out elsewhere, he did make a good run to get into the space and anticipate the cross/chance, and that's been a huge weakness of his game previously. Maybe it's stopped clock syndrome, but if so it was bloody well timed. And if it's a sign of improvement in his game, then great.
Ah no, I'm not knocking him, far from it. But it was a bit like Duffy's late goal against (Azerbaijan?). He met it brilliantly but it gave the keeper a glimmer of a chance to save it. But in reality, as both those goals show, from that distance all you need to do is meet it well and that's it, job done.
I remember my pal joking after Duffy's goal, in context of Kenny trying to change the way we play, "the more things change the more they stay the same". You can say the same here. Late headed goal saves the day.
Last edited by Stuttgart88; 08/09/2025 at 11:41 AM.
There's definitely a subset who use it that's for sure, appropriate given we appear to be trying to strong arm teams into submission.
Here they come! It’s the charge of the “Thanks” Brigade!
Called it!
Here they come! It’s the charge of the “Thanks” Brigade!
I just googled it
Are u saying Heil Hitler!!
Bit strange!!
Not at all, I was saying Heil Heimar! (I'm hoping someone draws the parallel with Hans Moleman here).
I've no issue with anyone of colour, creed or nationality.
Here they come! It’s the charge of the “Thanks” Brigade!
Ok no panic!
I like that 1991 comparison a lot actually. I’ll allow the jury to hear the testimony.
Feel the reason it didn’t work previously is that Kenny’s team invited pressure on themselves (possibly the manager’s nervousness transmitting through to the players), so it becomes a back five (the 30 yard strikes were amply a relying sitting too deep / defensive ineptitude from not closing down quick enough). If three at the back is played offensively / in a counter attacking manner like Palace, Wolves (of last season), Brentford & Forest have used it, it can be very effective. Especially, if under the tactical instruction for a Centre Half to step out to support the midfield against weaker teams, as Collins can do and has done for Brentford.
We have no natural flat four full backs in the squad, apart from a bunch of converted wingers like Manning & Ogbene, so should use them like Munoz, Ait-Nouri, Semedo & Aina have been used at their respective clubs. All for playing a back four, however our midfield are too weak - 3-5-2 gives us much more cover in the centre, both defensively & offensively, whilst using the flanks as outlets
This is where HH is over-complicating things, by sticking square pegs into round holes, when he should be using the materials at his disposal, rather than trying to turn us into an Irish version of Pulis’s functional Stoke team with regimented positioning, rather than high pressure counter attacking playing to our strengths.
Hahhaa the Hans Coleman reference is amazing. "I was saying Boourns"
Well Exhibit I is below. 22:30 to 25:30 - 12 crosses into the box, four key 50/50s won to get back possession, England with two touches in our half.I like that 1991 comparison a lot actually. I’ll allow the jury to hear the testimony.
I don't know is the full match from Saturday anywhere? I'd expect it to be a little bit less agricultural in fairness!
Systems, formations, personnel. I try to look at the way great teams play and ask why can't we at least try to emulate them. Best team I've seen this year is PSG. What did they do well? They played with extreme precision and extreme speed. How did they hit those heights? They obviously got on the training ground and started off slowly, putting an emphasis on precise passing and movement of players (ie get away from your marker in order to provide a passing option for the man in possession). They perfected that slowly and then pushed their individual limits to speed up their play and still be effective. Did Ireland's coaching staff do anything like that or even think of it before Saturday? Don't think we'll match PSG any day soon but if we don't try such things nothing will change.
Well the first thing they really did was get a big fat cheque book out and hoover up a lot of top talent. Not really something we can do...
I like high energy football. A little bit rock and roll. Many finishes instead of waiting for the perfect one.
I think the point about square pegs and round holes is important. I can see the theoretical merit of picking Doherty at left back (experience) but apart from Portugal away I can’t really remember ever being happy with his performance there. And more often than any other player I’ve been underwhelmed by him, regardless of where he plays. He pulls a rabbit out of the hat every now and again and that plants the thought back in your mind that he warrants a place. But right from the start on Saturday he looked off it. Collins was too (stage fright?) and he was at left sided centre back, where he has looked clumsy previously. Gary Breen always says he looks much better at right sided CB. Given O’Shea’s ability to improvise at left back I’d have thought he’d be the better of the two to play left sided. I also think Collins should have buried that O’Brien cross mid-second half btw, adding more merit to Idah’s goal – you can’t score if you don’t get it on target! So that’s two individuals that were below par and in positions they’re not natural at. I was sceptical of recalling Brady at LB last year but he was a real breath of fresh air, showing how being well balanced is really important. It was such a great feature of Mick’s 2002 team.
But, yet again, the source of our first half general crapness was the total absence of a midfielder constantly demanding the ball. Is it really about numbers and formations? Cullen only ever wanted it in safe positions and I don’t think Knight and Azaz showed much bravery with the positions they took. That left us only able to push the ball wide or long. We played it wide, then back inside then back to Kelleher repeatedly. We never managed play through their lines, only wide of their lines. The extra man allowed us to keep doing this but with the advantage of being able to generate overlaps.
In the interest of improving our balance I’d go with a back 3 of O’Brien, Collins and O’Shea tomorrow, with Ogbene and Manning as wing backs. Or maybe keep O'Brien wide right and bring Scales in as left side of the back 3.
Just as an aside, I was really surprised our opener stood. It looked like Collins smashed his opponent in the face and I was sure it’d be overturned by VAR when I saw the replay on the big screen. I’ve seen them given as they say. I think HH’s assessment of the ref was correct: he was really annoyed with Hungary’s time wasting and theatrics and it felt to me that the marginal calls were going to go our way as a consequence.
Last edited by Stuttgart88; 08/09/2025 at 2:52 PM.
I had no problem with Doherty at left back. I think he's been very solid when he's had to play there. My logic was that it forced him to be more focussed as he wasn't comfortable and so he was less prone to being too casual on and off the ball. Unfortunately, it was the worst of both worlds on Saturday. As has been pointed out, Collins beside him suffers a bit from the same malaise and they seemed to drag each other down. It's like they're so focussed on being cool and calm that they actually lose all sense of urgency. Both come across as needing someone in their ear constantly to get the best from them, and that's something this squad really lacks (maybe a larger symptom of the modern game, I think being loud on the pitch is coached out of young players).
After the first 15 minutes, whether Hungary backed off or being 2-0 down just forced some urgency things did start to improve. It took the best part of 40 minutes to get a couple of balls in to Ferguson, but once he got a few touches he showed he's sharp again. I'd agree with others that Azaz was frustrating, he'd make a good move find a bit of space and then just lose the ball sloppily. Manning had a great game, I think he's had issues in the past with focus, tactical awareness, discipline and couldn't win the trust of coaches, but he seems to have matured and brought his game to another level now. I can see why Kelleher got man of the match too though, he did make three crucial saves and was good overall.
Smdozic was very quiet and can't see him starting too many more games for us. Cullen was ok, I don't think he works well with Knight and there's a serious lack of physical presence with them beside each other. Knight is more dynamic but wouldn't trust him as a pure defensive midfielder. Cullen can pick a pass, but doesn't do it often enough. It's a shame Lawal isn't getting more game time in midfield because he does seem to have the physicality and defensive strength to be an asset there, but he's not getting enough time there at club level and it would have been asking too much to throw him in for such a critical game. If we're sticking with the same formation I'd like to see him start in Azerbaijan.
I still love Ogbene and what he brings, his attitude, pace, aggression are such assets. He won a couple or brilliant headers and put in a few ok balls too. It would be amazing if his final ball was better, but that's why he'll never be elite level, but he gives us something completely different and his versatility is an asset too. Hopefully he stays fit and has a good season. Delighted for Idah, I still think he has all the assets, but was really doubting if it was going to click. Not saying it'll suddenly all come good now, but with a fresh start and a bit of confidence maybe now is going to be his time. Although funnily enough, I spoke to someone who is very familiar with him and Johnny Kenny and he said he'd pick Kenny over him any day of the week and that Kenny has a higher ceiling.
Overall, it does seem like the fragility of the squad is still there. It's something Kenny couldn't iron out and HH seemed determined to fix it but yet they look worse at the start of games that ever. Kenny sides seemed to start well and fade, whereas HH sides seem to concede first and get better (although that's probably the better option I suppose). A win is essential on Tuesday for hope to linger on in any case.
Last edited by passinginterest; 08/09/2025 at 3:13 PM.
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