I just finished an MA in NI politics so I've loads of articles on ethnicity and identity in NI on my computuer. I can email some of them (including that Coakley one) if any of you are interested. Just PM me.
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I just finished an MA in NI politics so I've loads of articles on ethnicity and identity in NI on my computuer. I can email some of them (including that Coakley one) if any of you are interested. Just PM me.
Really? Im trying to put together a PhD proposal on perceptions of 'the border' in Irish writing. Let me get back to you on that offer at a later date, could be very helpful.:)Quote:
Originally Posted by holidaysong
Anyway, getting back to the topic - I'm not in favour of a merger of the two teams. As far as I'm concerned there are two nationalities on this island. My national team represents those who primarily identify as Irish. The NI team represents those who primarily identify as British and/or Northern Irish. That's not to say I disagree with the argument that you can be both British and Irish but if the point of international football is that different nations compete against each other then I don't see how someone from Newry who considers himself to be primarily British (even if they also consider themselves to be Northern Irish and/or Irish in some way) can support the same team as someone from Dundalk who considers himself to be Irish (and in no way British).
My thesis title was 'A geographical analysis of public opinion in the Republic of Ireland concerning the constitutional status of Northern Ireland'. I used public opinion surveys and electoral data to map attitudes towards 'the north' and 'the border' throughout the ROI. I'm sure there's quite a bit out there in Irish literature too. I assume you've read it already but in case you haven't you need to read Colm Tóbín's 'Bad Blood - a walk along the Irish border'.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby Doo
Apologies everyone for going way OT.
Cheers HS.Quote:
Originally Posted by holidaysong
Apologies from me also for the deviation from football matters, but sure thats been goin on all day.:ball:
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Originally Posted by Not Brazil
It has nothing to do with being "second class" Irish or any kind of class system, or indeed sectarianism.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
It's quite simple really. Allow me to explain.
If you were to break down your national identity into it's constituent parts from 100%, how is it made up or broken down?
When I used the term 'less' Irish, I was not making a judgement call, merely an observation. 'Less Irish' does not mean 'not Irish'. If someone from NI states that he/she is British, I conclude through observation that the quotient of his/her identity made up by 'Irishness' is less than someone who states only Irish. This is an observation, not a judgement call. Holding one nationality over another does not denote good or bad. Both are what they are.
A person's respective identity/identities as pertaining to nationality, go together to make a whole. They are not whole, upon whole.....and so on. That is schizophrenia or multiple personality disorder.
you don't half talk some garbage. if you aren't trolling then....well, i'd rather not say.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
here is a 2008 poll to set you straight, though no doubt your mind will refuse to accept it. i already posted the figures on this thread but obviously your subconscious didn't like them and blanked them out. please stop believing whatever nonsense your teacher/parents/friends are feeding your head and do us all a favour by finding out the truth.
http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/2008/Commu...s/NINATID.html
39% of catholics in NI DO NOT call themselves "irish" while 25% DO call themselves "northern irish".
a interesting point to note would be the figures on age and nationality. more people (of any outlook) under 35 call themselves "northern irish" than either "british" OR "irish".
Not so. You've responded to the NI supporters telling you thanks, but we're not interested in joining your football team- by just repeating it, over and over and over again. It's not an argument, just a cliched slogan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby Doo
Who's bitter? I'm relieved you didn't make it, no more. If you're going to repeat the same sneers as above, you can hardly be surprised when they're occasionally returned.Quote:
My last post was in response to your bitter and totally unnecessary comment about what happened Ireland last week
Don't be daft. How would either of us know what the typical fan in Africa or Asia or wherever thinks? Even if you did, you (and they notionally) are getting carried away by righteous indignation. Not conceding one dodgy goal didn't mean you'd have won overall, as I explained; conceding it doesn't make you particularly deserving. You lost unluckily, best get over it.Quote:
You're in the minority (of world football supporters) if you think that Ireland don't deserve to be at the world cup
Guilty as charged, son (I assume you're an adult male, apologies if not). Only coming down to your level.Quote:
And you haughtely dismiss other posters as sh!t stirrers (admittedly there are some) while coming out with a statement like a 'bunch of crybabies'. Get off the pot son
Spare us the pseudo-science, Dr Freud. It's got fcuk all to do with schizophrenia (which is distinct from multiple personality disorder). You're just a bigot who won't accept unionists as equally Irish. I'd change my psychiatrist if I were you.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fly
It's not pseudo-science GR. It is simple fact!Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
Read my post more carefully - it will help you to understand.
..........then maybe you will reply more intelligently as opposed to lazily and stupidly accusing people of bigotry.
You were the one who came on here banging the odds, baby sheep.Quote:
Originally Posted by -lamb-
But I'll give you the benefit for now and read those questions/answers properly when I have time.
Again I'd be be interested in the methodology. And if all the young Catholics are as you say, fair enough(Most of the ones I know are 30 or over) but they don't fall into not calling themselves Irish and Northern Irish, let alone both!
But accept in recent times there's a more inclusive view towards being 'northern Irish', as the alternative is NB's 'alter ego' ......but unless any of us are going to live for 200 years, doubt we'll be around when the majority of Northern Catholics/Nats. stop calling themselves such.
Fly- your conclusions through observation aren't facts, just opinion. They're also simplistic and a bit pretentious- I'm 100% Irish regardless of how your quotients of identity, whatever they are, say otherwise because I'm also British, or a Jedi, or whatever. I don't spend every waking hour (contrary to the timestamps on this thread) agonising how Irish I am, any more than you do.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fly
More seriously, while I don't claim any more than a basic layman's knowledge of psychiatry, schizophrenia and multiple personality disorders, I'm pretty certain than claiming to be 100% Irish and British both isn't in itself evidence of any of them. Your previous post also seemed to think schizophrenia and MPD were the same thing.
It is fact GR.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
For instance, if a person from Northern Ireland describes themselves as being equally Irish and British, then each nationality makes up 50% of the whole. They don't each represent 100%.
We were told by the IRFU that the SS is played in Dublin because it's the NA of the host nation. This is then followed by the sporting anthem, Ireland's Call. NI doesn't have an official sporting anthem, but is part of the UK, de facto GSTQ is the equivalent of the SS. Apart from these details, it's a matter of fair play and, in treating NI as a foreign country the IRFU let us all know where we stand.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fly
And it is neither here nor there otherwise we'd have to have a plebiscite every time we wanted to play an anthem. Anthems come and go, sometimes because the populace wants rid of them, but up to that point countries are stuck with them.
Yes. Protestant, OO member, pro-royal and living in the RoI. Like I said, there aren't many left, but they do exist.Quote:
Pro-royal :confused:..............how so?
Answered above. Be honest, it's more to do with disliking GSTQ than any other side issues isn't it?Quote:
The IRFU has not failed to provide it, Northern Ireland as an entity has failed to provide it by not having it's own anthem, in common with the Scot's and the Welsh.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fly
Aye, but yer average unionist would want to be :rolleyes: 100% Brit !
Unsure about the Irish quotient, but presumably substantially less ??
If I was an Irish nationalist, despite NB's bizarre parallel with the BNP, wouldn't want to be remotely British, if possible.
If you wish to "go all technical", Irish Nationals born in Northern Ireland have Dual Nationality - main exceptions being those who have sent the appropriate forms to the Home Office, denouncing their British Citizenship. I have never met one who has...and I've met many.;)Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fly
How do you think Irish Nationalists, born in Northern Ireland, qualify to play for Northern Ireland?
Nothing "bizarre" about it - some of your language and ideals are straight out of the school of BNP thinking.:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Northern Ireland, i.e:the host nation, does not have an official anthem and GSTQ is not it by default. This is a fact. Once again GSTQ has no official status in Northern Ireland. Apologies for being pedantic.Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnB
I have already stated that I would be against GSTQ being used to represent the Irish rugby team. If the sporting anthem ('Ireland's Call'), were to be used solely, I wouldn't have a problem with that. That's despite my dislike for it as a song, but then what do you expect when you ask Phil Coulter to write one.Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnB
You are talking < 100 people surely, even in Rossnowlagh who are willingly Irish citizens?Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnB
But don't worry, we don't mind them, nor them us!
As for TQ song, it's a terrible dirge. Why doesn't the North at least come into the 20th century and go for 'Danny Boy' (or similar) as a sporting anthem? At least it mentions the green Glens and you don't have to share it with the worst kind of moronic England fan....
Even 'The Sash' or something to the tune of 'The Billy Boys' would make more sense and be a dammed sight more rousing than that and the 'No Surrender' add-on! ;)
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Originally Posted by Not Brazil
Well I only know two, my sisters. Though to be fair they only ever have had Irish citizenship and never received such forms AFAIK.
Aye, wee Sammy Wilson, like most of the politicians in NI, he's not exactly blessed with wit or imagination.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby Doo
I think it's hilarious, but it's got as much credibility as some of the republican pseudo-history we hear.Quote:
the concept of Ulster usurped by staunch unionism annoys me - rightly or wrongly.
Here's one solution to much of this nonsense:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...259043506.html
Except you're clearly suffering from amnesia as I defined earlier the broad difference between the exclusionist, racist nationalism of the BNP and the vastly more inclusiveness of Irish nationalism.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
However, you want to be British, so by definition can't be Irish, but we don't mind. We'd accept you anyway.
Somehow you & yer ilk would be liable to complain about it more than us. And some of them would go looking to the BNP, seeing they share the same phobia, not to mention similar tastes in colour scheme and music, about losing 'identity'.....
If they wish to denounce their British Citizenship, they'll need to request the forms.;)Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Let me know how they get on.:D
But for me to be "Irish", in your warped worldview, I have to give up my "Britishness".Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Your definition is fine and dandy - i'll use an Internationally recognised Agreement as my source of reference - as overwhelmingly supported by the people of the Republic Of Ireland at the ballot box.;)
You're crackers.
It does! It's the NA of the host nation, that being NI, which is part of the UK. It has the same status in the other three countries in the UK and, since you like the Welsh and Scottish examples, their sporting anthems are not official. Their NA is GSTQ.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fly
And I suspect this official status thing is a red herring for those against the playing of GSTQ at Ireland rugby games. I quite like Ireland's Call as it goes, at least it's free of the usual old ****e about god and queens and battles and monocultural ideas of national identity.Quote:
I have already stated that I would be against GSTQ being used to represent the Irish rugby team. If the sporting anthem ('Ireland's Call'), were to be used solely, I wouldn't have a problem with that. That's despite my dislike for it as a song, but then what do you expect when you ask Phil Coulter to write one
But how can they denounce something they never had, wanted or needed???Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
As for being crackers;suggest you look at what you're saying and the various contradictions which are so typical of unionism.
We started jokely talking about an AI team, but then you claim to be have to be Irish & British. As yer man said, at best you can be half-and-half. Which is fair enough.
But despite maybe some changing views, most people still want to be one way or the other. The 'both' nonsense doesn't come into it. And if you don't believe me, look at how 95% minimum vote in the North.
If you went round with literature with a UJ/Tricolour on there, it'd be a long time before anyone takes you seriously....
Anyway, the bigger picture is that we're more accepting of you, than you are of us. Even though you claim to be 'Irish'....Maybe by geogragraphical location, but not by nature or disposition!
And all that 'Agreement' is an agreement to disagree!
You're right about official status. But so last century.Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnB
It's very average IC (Personally Id' prefer The Sash & SS one after another) but otherwise, yes.
I've no idea about numbers of prods/OO types in the RoI, but I have been surprised by the depth of their feeling. Some do mind very much about how they've been treated and how they're perceived in the RoI.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
I'd like a new anthem and flag for NI, but we've only recently emerged from several decades of murder, so things are still very sensitive. The recent murders aren't helping either. I don't see us getting rid of GSTQ for a while yet, but I think it will come once the country is feeling a bit more confident.Quote:
As for TQ song, it's a terrible dirge. Why doesn't the North at least come into the 20th century and go for 'Danny Boy' (or similar) as a sporting anthem? At least it mentions the green Glens and you don't have to share it with the worst kind of moronic England fan....
Even 'The Sash' or something to the tune of 'The Billy Boys' would make more sense and be a dammed sight more rousing than that and the 'No Surrender' add-on! ;)
it's not you'll "give me the benefit", as you so condescendingly put it, rather that you have nothing else to offer in argument to it. even now you are ONLY interested in the methodology because it is your only argumental option. if the figures had suited your opinion methodology wouldn't even have crossed your mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
you've been trolling pretty much the whole way through the thread throwing out unsubstantiated, incorrect and stereotyped images that you obviously believe but can't back up.
do us all a favour and give it a rest.
The UK is not being represented, Northern Ireland is. That is why the Scots and Welsh use their own anthems, as well as for obvious nationalistic reasons. The English use GSTQ, as we all know, but then Englishness and Britishness have always been one and the same thing - or at the very least, Britishness has always been seen, both domestically and certainly internationally, as Englishness writ large.Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnB
Here's a question for you JohnB;
If England chooses to have it's own anthem, which is gathering momentum there, with 'Land of Hope and Glory' or 'Jerusalem' being the two preferred candidates, would you still expect Northern Ireland to use GSTQ as it's 'official anthem'?
That's fair enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnB
Were your sisters born in Northern Ireland, and continue to live in Northern Ireland?Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
No contradictions at all - my identity is multi faceted.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
I don't understand what the gibberish in the second sentence above means, or what point you are attempting to make?:confused:
5% Prods in the Free State and of that 1-2% max. would have any feelings for the OO.Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnB
But seriously have no problem with anyone, except certain 'Flat-Earthers', at both ends of the Prod/RC extremes who're nearly as demented as each other.
As for your colleague from Larne;wasn't me who came on an 'opposing' MB shouting the odds and accusing me of trolling. You know nothing about me, or my experiences, yet you claim everything I say is unsubstantiated.
Well you're wrong. I make a point of talking to and asking people, of all religions and persuasions. You should try it sometime.
Admit still get fired up by all this, but have my own personal reasons.
If people are willing to move on as HS and you (without the conciliatory tone) suggest, then all well and good.
I sincerely hope so. And that all those who've died unnecessarily in Ireland under British interference, wasn't in vain.
Just accept that people have different experiences before saying their images and stereotypes are wrong;have spoken to certain Northern politicians and believe me, as HS says, they are very very clear in what they stand for. And don't currently see it any other way.
They were born there, but left when they were children. We used to joke they had 'dual' citizenship, but they weren't so keen on the idea!Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
I'm sure JohnB will answer for himself, but I'm supportive of a Northern Irish "sporting" anthem to be brought in asap.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fly
England can do what they like.
My National Anthem, is, and will remain, GSTQ.
Exactly!Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
So, they don't live in Northern Ireland any longer?Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Fair Enough NB.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
Hence the word 'left'. But you only mentioned Irish citizens born in the North.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
So they were born in Northern Ireland, and left?Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
What year were they born?
To answer properly, or more so, Good Luck with the most inclusive choices possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnB
Seen the flags and very know vaguely one of the designers....