different mind set of fans, totally differentQuote:
Originally Posted by jebus
Printable View
different mind set of fans, totally differentQuote:
Originally Posted by jebus
What would be in this for NI fans?
Reminds me of when people say sure all the Dublin teams should merge into one super Dublin team. Nonsense.
Why on earth would an NI fan or the IFA want to give up their team, which woould undoubtedly be swallowed up by the ROI fans and players and forgotten about in 20 years.
I don't see the rationale for it at all, unless you're simply a nationalist who sees it as a step to a UI.
Draw, I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by bennocelt
That's the competition itself. Is there anything at stake here? It's like the League Cup without a UEFA Cup place. An all-Ireland league, with Champions League and Europe Cup places would obviously be different. What the Setanta Cup has shown is that the trouble that blighted the All-Ireland cup in 1980 is no longer there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
Not at all. I would like to see an all-Ireland team the same way as I would like an all-Ireland state. That's not stirring. And as long as a. I'm not going to kill anyone or b. ethnic cleanse the area, I don't see why I should apologise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
It's the sign of the times. And a pretty sad one, IMO. No Juanito was not there. But then had he, I would have been more sober than I was, and not been in the toilet in the first place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
Therein, another problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
Less European places for Clubs on this island.
yes and no
Clearly there would be less places or the isalnd but for a team there would still only be the same number of places to compete for.
If the football improved there would be more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
Nuts to that, let's merge with Brazil, much better looking female fans and we can claim to have won the world cup five times.Quote:
Originally Posted by gustavo
Let me see now.
First you wanted your own Association in 1921. Fair enough.
Then you wanted an Agreement with us that each Association would only pick players from its own Jurisdiction. Fair enough.
Next you decided unilaterally to tear up that Agreement and pick players from out jurisdiction, to give you what is effectively an all-Ireland team. OK, if you must.
And now you want to abolish our team entirely, just in order to be able to get your hands on the two or three players you (condescendingly) deem good enough for your team.
And even if that effectively means that Darron Gibson must not be prevented from playing for "his" country, but the likes of Kyle Lafferty must be prevented for playing for his country, you seem to see no contradiction in such a stance.
Nor in accusing us of being "bigoted" for not wanting a U-I team, even whilst it was you who broke up the old one.
Nor in accusing us of running a sectarian team, even though your most recent selection policy risks dragging us closer towards a de facto "Catholic/Nationalist Irish Team" and a "Protestant/Unionist Irish Team".
Nor in accusing our fans of being politically prejudiced, when every person from the "Six Counties" who chooses to support the ROI team is likely to be motivated at least partially by political reasons for his choice.
Nor in espousing a U-I team, whose raison d'etre must be that "we are all Irish", whilst at the same time accusing us of being a British team when it suits your case.
I've been hearing a lot about "fair play" in the Thierry Henry context this last couple of days, and despite succumbing to the temptation to join in all the "Hand of Gaul" jokes etc, I actually remain hugely sympathetic to the ROI fanbase, the great majority of whom are as sound a bunch of supporters as you'll find anywhere.
But i would appeal to those self-same fans to think on this. When you reflect on the pride and joy that you took from the game in Paris, has it never occurred to you that the direct effect of your other (oh-so-predictable) post-match call for a U-I team, would be to deprive me and thousands of other NI fans of equal pride and joy at Our Wee Country's efforts against England, Spain, Sweden, Denmark, Slovenia, Poland etc etc etc?
Well I'm sorry. No amount of patronising guff about wishing NI well whenever we play etc makes up for me for the cant and hypocrisy emanating from that section of your support calling for the end of my team.
And if that makes me "bitter" and "small-minded", so be it - I would say exactly the same should some Englishman start spouting about the need for an All-UK team, on the basis that he wanted Johnny Evans to play Centre Back in succession to Rio Ferdinand at Wembley, in the way he seems destined to do at Old Trafford.
But hey, I suppose that would somehow make me a bigot as well...:rolleyes:
Of course. I didn't 'give away' anything. It was no secret. Thats why I quite clearly saidQuote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
And personally I don't like Windsor, or the area it is in.Quote:
....things have come a long way, to the point where I am always pleased to see NI win, and flick over occassionally to see how they are doing. I will never do any more than that, as I am politically opposed to the existance of the state, but you can't say Northern Ireland without saying Ireland. If i am not being given any reason to feel hostile to them, I'll always be pleased to see a team of Irishmen do well. We all wear green
But thats getting distracted by nonsense and politics that has nothing to do with football, and if that happens this thread goes the same way as every other one we have ever done, and end up getting locked and closed, so i would politely suggest everyone wind their neck back in, and debate the issues rather than fighting 500 years of war all over again. I'm not interested in that.
The important issue here is the fact that one league would have bigger attendances, more money, it would be more appealing to TV, etc. More TV, and more people showing up, and eventually we have a high quality league of players who might get beyond the preliminary stages in Europe. And they can complement the international teams this island fields, however many there are.
Fair enough EG. Though your lot can't have their cake and eat it. Look forward to a GB/Ugly K.team at the earliest opportunity, complete with Evans as centre-back.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
The rest are mainly rubbish though. But when our players retire, we're not far behind you....
So Finals of any description are a long long way off. Not just now, but for the next decade.
It's a shame bigots on both sides undermine a U-I team, to diminish the chances of qualification. Still you'll always have Johnny Evans.....
What on earth is bigotted about not wanting a UI team?Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
And we'l ignore the irony of you calling others bigots in a post where you're childish enough to use the term 'ugly k'
You seem to insist on missing the point.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Northern Ireland fans are oppossed to seeing our team disappear, for it to form part of ANY "All" Whatever - be that Ireland, or UK team.
That is not a bigoted viewpoint - it is the viewpoint of fans who support their country, just as passionately and fervently as you do yours.
If the price of seeing one or two of our players qualify is the diasppearance of our team, that's a price that won't be paid.
Maybe Bohs and Shams should merge, in an attempt to get a Dublin Club to the Champions League Group stages?:eek:
What's more, in the event of there ever being a singular international team on this island, I'm quite sure we'll have your support in upholding the right of any Northern Irish born player to elect to play for either England, Scotland, or Wales over "Ireland".;)
So you'd agree with those people who wanted a 'London' team or Yorkshire or Cork team then, heh?Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
If unionists didn't want to play for an all-Irish team, have no problem playing for some other British team. If they love the place so much though, you'd think they'd actually want to live there....
is it just me, or does much of this post make no sense?Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
It's not a "fact", it's an opinion, laced with speculation.Quote:
Originally Posted by backtowalsall
In a 12 team, All Ireland Premier League, how many would be in it from Northern Ireland?
We've already learnt from a poster earlier in the thread that, outside of Linfield and Glentoran, IL Clubs are on a par with your current 1st Division.
WTF?:confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Re. "Back to Walsall"
On the one hand you state: "I will never do any more than that [take a passing interest in the NI team], as I am politically opposed to the existance of the state"
On the other, you talk about avoiding "...getting distracted by nonsense and politics that has nothing to do with football".
Can you not see the contradiction in those two viewpoints? Either the politics of the situation are important (hence your reluctance to adhere to your "home" team), or they aren't (in which case there is no longer any footballing reason reason why you cannot support your local team).
Oh well.
Where is your evidence that attendances would be bigger? Setanta Cup?Quote:
Originally Posted by backtowalsall
Maybe, but unless all the other myriad problems are addressed, North and South, I'd guess that any advantage would be only marginal. Which might be enough to delay, even halt the overall downward trend in Irish domestic football witnessed over the last three decades or more.Quote:
Originally Posted by backtowalsall
I have to say, however, that the proposal for an AIL smacks to me as being merely the latest in a series of "magic bullets" to infect Irish club football (in the LOI, at least).
And if full-time football, summer football, the efforts to expand football outside traditional strongholds, the push for Europe etc haven't worked, why should this one?
Far better imo, for both Leagues to address the fundamental, structural problems which have held them back, then think about combining, so that 2 + 2 will equal 5, rather than 3.
Ah yes, Europe, the "Answer to a Maiden's Prayer"...:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by backtowalsall
As I see it, unless or until both Associations can fairly claim that they have solidly addressed all their existing problems, and still the decline continues, why embark on such a radical overhaul of existing structures, all for the sake of playing 3 rounds in Europe, rather than two (LOI) or one (IL)?
Smacks of "baby" and "bathwater" to me.
Nothing would please me more than to see clubs like Glentoran (even Linfield!) thriving in such a new League, such that they were producing talented new players for the NI team.Quote:
Originally Posted by backtowalsall
But even if that could be achieved, all that would mean is that such clubs could command slightly bigger transfer fees when (not "if") those players then go abroad, to a better club, for more money.
And if you need proof of that, you need only look at the likes of Cork (Doyle, Long, O'Donovan etc) or Derry City (McCourt, McGinn), who have seen their best players leave despite being all their best efforts.
Meanwhile, both clubs are in desperate straits, amongst other things from a want of proper regulation by the League/Association etc.
Or are you saying that if both those clubs were playing six or eight of their games each season against eg Linfield, Glens or Portadown, instead of eg Bray, Drogheda or Galway, that they would not have got themselves into the mess they have?
As I have said many times before, so long as the autonomy of the IFA and the independence of the NI team are preserved, I have no problem with an AIL in principle.
In fact, I could see how in time it could greatly improve domestic football throughout the island. But it will only do so if and when the administrators and officials in charge are fit to run such a League.
And before I would let the present lot (FAI or IFA) near such a major project, I would demand proof that they are up to it i.e. evidence that they can run their respective (small) projects properly.
For if you did let Delaney and Kennedy loose on an AIL, and they screwed that up, too, we would all be left with no AIL, no IL, no LOI and (most importantly) no credibility.
Yes it is just you.Quote:
Originally Posted by -lamb-
All of it makes no sense.
I would envisiage 4, if Belfast Celtic were to be re-formed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
Linfield, Derry, Glentoran and BC. Possibly with The likes of Crusaders, Portadown, Ballymena, Coleraine in a division below (which in fairness would probably be dominated by NI teams).
And you're quite right, it was an opinion. I'm big enough to admit when i'm wrong.
I see no contradition. I have my politics, which determine which national identity I have, and thus which international team I support. The politics determine which stadium I go to, but they are best left at the turnstile.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
But if both national identities can work together to our mutual benefit, why are we still talking about it?
And if you read all I said, you will see I was actually complimenting NI on how well they have done in improving things.
It speculation, but they can't go much lower. I look at the attendances in similar leagues, Scotland (ecluding the old firm) being the obvious example. If Dundee can support 2 clubs, I see no reason why a city like Derry cannot support 1, Belfast 3, or Dublin 4.Quote:
Where is your evidence that attendances would be bigger? Setanta Cup?
Football is our favorite sport. With competative games, and comfortable facities, no reason why we should be Europes biggest country with such a poor leagueQuote:
Maybe, but unless all the other myriad problems are addressed, North and South, I'd guess that any advantage would be only marginal. Which might be enough to delay, even halt the overall downward trend in Irish domestic football witnessed over the last three decades or more.
Because its either that or give up. No one is saying its a magic bullet, but over time fans may go to the big clubs, the likes of Limavady & Larne go amatuer, and paying attendances there can increase. I know that Larne and Limavady fans won't be keen on amatuer football, but Omagh Town fans would love to have it.Quote:
I have to say, however, that the proposal for an AIL smacks to me as being merely the latest in a series of "magic bullets" to infect Irish club football (in the LOI, at least).
And if full-time football, summer football, the efforts to expand football outside traditional strongholds, the push for Europe etc haven't worked, why should this one?
There is merit in that, all I would suggest is a long term plan, for both leagues, rather than lurching from one crisis to the nextQuote:
Far better imo, for both Leagues to address the fundamental, structural problems which have held them back, then think about combining, so that 2 + 2 will equal 5, rather than 3.
Its not Europe for Europes sake, No one will ever win anything. But European football would increse the number of players capable of complimenting the players we have playing abroad in the international squads.Quote:
Ah yes, Europe, the "Answer to a Maiden's Prayer"...:rolleyes:
As I see it, unless or until both Associations can fairly claim that they have solidly addressed all their existing problems, and still the decline continues, why embark on such a radical overhaul of existing structures, all for the sake of playing 3 rounds in Europe, rather than two (LOI) or one (IL)?
Smacks of "baby" and "bathwater" to me.
What can I say, players go on to bigger and better things. thats footballQuote:
Nothing would please me more than to see clubs like Glentoran (even Linfield!) thriving in such a new League, such that they were producing talented new players for the NI team.
But even if that could be achieved, all that would mean is that such clubs could command slightly bigger transfer fees when (not "if") those players then go abroad, to a better club, for more money.
And if you need proof of that, you need only look at the likes of Cork (Doyle, Long, O'Donovan etc) or Derry City (McCourt, McGinn), who have seen their best players leave despite being all their best efforts.
Meanwhile, both clubs are in desperate straits, amongst other things from a want of proper regulation by the League/Association etc.
it would be bound to have helped. All teams in Ireland are very badly run. But full houses would have to helpQuote:
Or are you saying that if both those clubs were playing six or eight of their games each season against eg Linfield, Glens or Portadown, instead of eg Bray, Drogheda or Galway, that they would not have got themselves into the mess they have?
Amen to thatQuote:
In fact, I could see how in time it could greatly improve domestic football throughout the island. But it will only do so if and when the administrators and officials in charge are fit to run such a League.
And before I would let the present lot (FAI or IFA) near such a major project, I would demand proof that they are up to it i.e. evidence that they can run their respective (small) projects properly.
For if you did let Delaney and Kennedy loose on an AIL, and they screwed that up, too, we would all be left with no AIL, no IL, no LOI and (most importantly) no credibility.