The 2nd place qualifying table

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Originally Posted by Gather round

Who claimed they did? I was suggesting that TV markets and likely fan following to a tournament, were just as likely justifications as World ranking for rigging the draw. Not that I agree with the other conspiracy theorists on here who think it was rigged.

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I don't know what the feck you are waffling on about.
Deal with facts as they were represented by us and less of your silly juvenile jibes.

If you dispute the facts as we present them then find something of substance from the facts of the matter to argue against what we report.
Simply put your argument (if you even have an argument) is that despite UEFA saying they would first have a seeded draw, then saying they would not have a seeded draw, then producing the results of the "draw", you are claiming that it was a pure 270/1 coincidence that their wished for play off pairings materialised.

If that's it, then fine.

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Originally Posted by geysir

That's how I recall the news reports at the time. It's enough for me that Stutts agrees I am not mad. Check it out for yourself if you really want to.

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That's my totally clear recollection too.

Gather Round, I thought it clearly at the time and the memory has stuck in my mind like a lot of things over the years from following the BIG. I've no reason whatsoever to make it up.

I've no idea whether it was based on rankings or not, but it was 100% obvious that the 4 teams UEFA wanted in the finals were kept apart and drawn away from home first in the draw. There was broad consensus in the media who the 4 "seeds" would be.

Check this article out

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m.../ai_n14279130/

It doesn't mention who the 4 "seeds" might have been but it clearly hints that there was a movement towards having a seeded draw which was shot down under protest. This at least backs up part of the assertion.

GR may continue to have his doubts but as soon as the actual draw was made I was astonished that the 4 mooted seeds were separated and drawn away first. 270-1 or whatever it was, as Geysir says.

This article strongly suggests England, Ukraine and Turkey would be UEFA's seeds and it draws clear reference to the suspicion that UEFA would prefer the biggest TV audiences to be represented, so presumably Denmark would be 4th.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/1...wsstory.sport3

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

lads have an awful feeling we are going to meet slovenia :exclamation:

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Why would it be awful to meet slovenia.

Apologies for the snide and wind-up in my late-night post yesterday. Shouldn't post after the pub...thanks also for the links to contemporary press articles at the time.

Geysir, I wasn't doubting the bald facts as you described them, rather asking for more detail before deciding whether I agreed with your conclusion drawn from them. Clearly UEFA self-contradicted and were even more shifty than usual, but as Glenn Moore said in one of the linked articles, it wasn't 100% certain (or even 99.7%, 1-270) which criteria which would be used to identify the seeds (current World ranking, TV watching population, affluence, travelling support or whatever). Denmark were a relatively recent champion, but on at least one of those three criteria they wouldn't have been clearly ahead of Scotland, Israel or the Republic of Ireland.

I can't prove it, but trust me GR, the 4 mooted seeds were definitely those drawn apart, and away first. It wasn't just the print media suggesting those 4, it was the TV and mainly the radio. Unfortunately soccercentral.ie or foot.ie probably weren't around then to check the archives!

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I can't prove it, but trust me GR, the 4 mooted seeds were definitely those drawn apart, and away first. It wasn't just the print media suggesting those 4, it was the TV and mainly the radio. Unfortunately soccercentral.ie or foot.ie probably weren't around then to check the archives!

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Stuttgart- I'm happy to accept beyond reasonable doubt that UEFA were corrupt in 2000.

Wouldn't they save themselves an embarrassing problem in future tournaments, simply by putting a seeding for the play-off based on ranking position, into the tournament rules in advance?

PS apologies to Geysir if I've misunderstood his point about winning the group being potentially easier than getting through a play-off with France or Germany, but put like that I can't see it. You're comparing two admittedly difficult fixtures, albeit against slightly below par opposition, with four including the World champions and two away from home.

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Originally Posted by Gather round

Apologies for the snide and wind-up in my late-night post yesterday. Shouldn't post after the pub...thanks also for the links to contemporary press articles at the time.

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Okay, no problem then.

If more women were involved with following Ireland, we would have an exact photographic memory account of every grievance inflicted upon us over the past 50 years.

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Originally Posted by Gather round

Stuttgart- I'm happy to accept beyond reasonable doubt that UEFA were corrupt in 2000.

Wouldn't they save themselves an embarrassing problem in future tournaments, simply by putting a seeding for the play-off based on ranking position, into the tournament rules in advance?

PS apologies to Geysir if I've misunderstood his point about winning the group being potentially easier than getting through a play-off with France or Germany, but put like that I can't see it. You're comparing two admittedly difficult fixtures, albeit against slightly below par opposition, with four including the World champions and two away from home.

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Thanks.

Yep, in 1999 we all thought that UEFA should have had a clear rule at the start.

I can see Geysir's point - Bulgaria away, Cyprus away, Italy Home, Montenegro at home are probably more winnable than a 2 leg play off against a good team. It's very marginal. Italy could also be seen to be below par - even 3rd rate if you believe some of the misery merchants here after Bari. Ireland's play off experience has been poor.

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Originally Posted by Gather round

Wouldn't they save themselves an embarrassing problem in future tournaments, simply by putting a seeding for the play-off based on ranking position, into the tournament rules in advance?

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The problem with this is that the likes of France could slip down that seeding. Better to keep your options open.

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Originally Posted by geysir

If more women were involved with following Ireland, we would have an exact photographic memory account of every grievance inflicted upon us over the past 50 years.

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Are you calling me a woman?

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Originally Posted by gspain

The problem with this is that the likes of France could slip down that seeding. Better to keep your options open

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Fair point (although of course a big player could drop embarrassingly to third place, as England did last time).

I suppose I'm wary of giving UEFA and FIFA any more chance to fiddle things. I still think Yugoslavia should have been allowed into Euro 1992, for example :)

What are the exact dates for these playoffs. Tried to find them on the web

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Originally Posted by NeilMcD

What are the exact dates for these playoffs. Tried to find them on the web

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It looks like the first legs will be played on Saturday, November 14th with the return legs on Wednesday, November 18th. I'm only basing this on preliminary/actual dates penciled in for the playoffs in the other continents. Presume they'll be generally the same.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_FI..._qualification

Don't think the dates have been finalised yet, they're not on the wikipedia entry for qualifying - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_FI...fication_(UEFA) - and all that's on this article on fifa.com - http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/news/ne...uropes+runners - is

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The four European Zone play-offs will take place in November 2009.

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Originally Posted by geysir

If more women were involved with following Ireland, we would have an exact photographic memory account of every grievance inflicted upon us over the past 50 years.

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Now, now, now, now, don't bring your marital problems into the the mix! :p

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Originally Posted by NeilMcD

What are the exact dates for these playoffs. Tried to find them on the web

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According to the official regulations published on the FIFA website here, Article 17, para.3, they have to be played between 14th and 18th November 2009.

Bulgaria out. But, this is what we will be dealing with and we all know it.

Bulgaria are most certainly not out.

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Originally Posted by Colbert Report

Bulgaria are most certainly not out.

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Bulgaria will not win all 4 remaining games and we will do enough that logically they are out. Most certainly.

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Originally Posted by Crosby87

Bulgaria will not win all 4 remaining games and we will do enough that logically they are out. Most certainly.

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http://oneyearbibleimages.com/chickens_hatch.jpg

Bulgaria have Montenegro at home in their next match. Likely a Bulgaria win.

Italy away in the next match after that. Likely a draw or a loss.

Away to Cyprus. Win or draw.

Home to Georgia. Win.

They'll very likely win at least two out of those four matches. They could win three and draw the Italians away, putting them on eighteen points total.

That means we'd need six points from our last three matches to get nineteen points and the play-off spot, if it is even available to us. I have a funny feeling that we'll finish second and not get into the play-offs.

We have Cyprus away, then Italy and Montenegro at home. Would you be willing to bet we get at least two out of three wins there? Very very tricky. We're not out of the woods just yet.

Anyone got a link to an up to date 2nd place qualifying table?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_FI...d-placed_teams

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Originally Posted by WexCar

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_FI...d-placed_teams

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This table is wrong, after tonight games heres the table

1 France played 5, 10pts
=2 Bosnia played 5, 9pts
=2 Russia played 4, 9pts
=4 Hungary played 4, 7pts
=4 Switzerland played 5, 7pts
=4 N Ireland played 5, 7pts
=4 Rep Ireland played 5, 7pts
=4 Scotland played 5, 7pts
9 Croatia played 4, 5pts

So its still very tight and could go any way yet ......

I personally dont think win or draw to Cyprus and win vs Georgia are even 50% likely for Bulgaria. To declare them beating Georgia even at home is crazy. They have a lot of factors going on there. Georgia might be more up for the game then they are.
NOW of course you can include us in it not being great, but you say if we finish second, will it even matter. Well, imagine being them? They are done. We may well be also but have it better than they do.
YES I admit, mathematically they are alive but surely Bulgaria will not be at South Africa man. And its in that regard that I declare them Done.

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Originally Posted by Crosby87

I personally dont think win or draw to Cyprus and win vs Georgia are even 50% likely for Bulgaria. To declare them beating Georgia even at home is crazy. They have a lot of factors going on there. Georgia might be more up for the game then they are.
NOW of course you can include us in it not being great, but you say if we finish second, will it even matter. Well, imagine being them? They are done. We may well be also but have it better than they do.
YES I admit, mathematically they are alive but surely Bulgaria will not be at South Africa man. And its in that regard that I declare them Done.

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We win finish second - we just have to finish not bottom of my last post .........9th placed which Croatia is filling at the minute ......

Holland are the 1st team from Europe to be in South Africa ......... and they good at cricket too ...... ask england :D

Bulgaria have slipped up in 1 match that we didn't. Georgia away. That's still all that seperates us.

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Originally Posted by eirebhoy

Bulgaria have slipped up in 1 match that we didn't. Georgia away. That's still all that seperates us.

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Italy also have to go to 'fortress Georgia' ;)
Actually Georgia have got some decent results at home including beating the
'mighty' Republic of Ireland in 2003 :D

So plenty of bananna skins for all.

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Originally Posted by tricky_colour

Italy also have to go to 'fortress Georgia' ;)
Actually Georgia have got some decent results at home including beating the
'mighty' Republic of Ireland in 2003 :D

So plenty of bananna skins for all.

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Did I miss some bit of sarcasm, or didn't we beat Georgia 2-1 in Tblisi in March 2003, with goals from Duff and Doherty?

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Originally Posted by Supreme feet

Did I miss some bit of sarcasm, or didn't we beat Georgia 2-1 in Tblisi in March 2003, with goals from Duff and Doherty?

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lol yes, my mistake ;)

I was scanning through the Fifa results and it seems I misread it, I did think it a bit odd I could not remember the public outcry though but I it down to the beer fogging my memory :D

They have beat Scotland though ;)

Actually after we, as you said beat them 2:1 they drew with Switzerland and then beat Russia 1:0, teams which I do remember we struggled against.

So they are capable of causing the odd upset, I expect a lot of the remaining gaimes to be pretty tight but it is still difficult so see Italy not topping the group.

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Originally Posted by tricky_colour

Italy also have to go to 'fortress Georgia' ;)
Actually Georgia have got some decent results at home including beating the
'mighty' Republic of Ireland in 2003 :D

So plenty of bananna skins for all.

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Tighten up your act.

So we could really do with Georgia winning a few games and getting them off last spot and into 5th in the group

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Originally Posted by eirebhoy

Bulgaria have slipped up in 1 match that we didn't. Georgia away. That's still all that seperates us.

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Except we have Italy at home.

They play Italy before we do. Italy at that stage will know they will have to win that game to nail first spot, should we win in Cyprus.

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Originally Posted by neville neville

So we could really do with Georgia winning a few games and getting them off last spot and into 5th in the group

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It would be perfect for us if Georgia could pass out Montenegro. If that happened I think we'd be assured of the playoffs.

I just thought of this scenario - apologies if already mentioned.

Last game of the qualifiers, Italy are guaranteed 1st place and we are guaranteed second.

If we lose to Montenagro, they finish bottom and we are guaranteed a play off.

If we win Georgia are bottom and we lose out on a play-off!

Would be a crazy situation

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Originally Posted by Sumac

I just thought of this scenario - apologies if already mentioned.

Last game of the qualifiers, Italy are guaranteed 1st place and we are guaranteed second.

If we lose to Montenagro, they finish bottom and we are guaranteed a play off.

If we win Georgia are bottom and we lose out on a play-off!

Would be a crazy situation

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Maybe I'm missing something but how could losing to Montenegro in the last game result in them finishing bottom while winning would result in Georgia finishing bottom? This defies all known laws of mathematics and if that situation could occur I would agree that yes it is crazy.