Norn Iron rubbish part 23452346526

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Originally Posted by Predator

Whatever about the actual number of all-Ireland team advocates in the current set of NI fans, surely Northern Irish society should have a big say? After all, the IFA and the NI team purport to represent Northern Ireland (and by extension, obviously its people... and strangely, according to the Anthem, England :p) on the international stage.


Technically of course, the FAI can choose players from anywhere on the island, but while there will be players from the North who decide to play for the Republic, there will also be players who don't wish to play for the Republic (due perhaps to their backgrounds). This situation doesn't exactly help NI's chances of retaining the best players within their boundaries, as you well know. You're obviously aware of the possible positive implications of an All-Ireland team and it would not simply mean the end of a team for you (and other people from Northern Ireland) to support. Could you truly not bring yourself to roar on a team containing a few lads from Belfast, Derry and Newry, as well as lads from Dublin, Donegal, Cork and Galway? Is it that abhorrent?

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Firstly, the team represents the Irish Football Association (A Company, and member of FIFA). It's the IFA, it's International team supporters, and FIFA who have the say.

Sainsbury's may wish they could be merged with Tescos - many consumers might like that too. However, the Management of Sainsburys and Tescos are the decision makers on the issue.

Secondly, I would much rather support a team consisting of players from (or eligible to play for) Northern Ireland. I have little or no affinity with players from Dublin, Cork, Galway, or Donegal.

It, therefore, is not something I could passionately "roar on".

Again, I ask why can't you respect the choice of those who wish to play for/support Northern Ireland?

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Originally Posted by ramondo

Would it be so bad if the team was called, say, The Republic and Northern Ireland, or some variation/combination? It seems to work for Bosnia and Herzegovina.

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Why not just keep two teams, the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland - teams that we're equally as proud of and passionate about?:confused:

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Originally Posted by Predator

There are bound to be Northern Ireland fans who would consider an all-Ireland team and I'm fairly sure that there is a sizeable section of Northern Ireland society that would also like to see an all-Ireland team - these people should surely hypothesize. Of course, as has been pointed out previously, some of Northern Ireland's greatest players have been advocates of the idea too and I reckon there's a chance some of their current players may also be advocates

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But as keeps being mentioned and you seem unwilling/ unable to grasp, there's already an effective united Ireland side, one that can and does choose players from all across the 32 counties, not to mention Glasgow, Lancashire, Nottinghamshire and Birmingham. So in practice no-one needs to hypothesise. It'd be like hypothesising about it raining in Aughnacloy next week. Given that, there's no reason to get rid of the existing NI side. You'll struggle to find a single current player in favor of that.

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Originally Posted by Riddickule

Why do we always need to go political about it?

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International football is necessarily political; you can't get much more politically provocative than calling to abolish the NI international side.

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For football's sake on this island it makes sense to have an AIL and an AI National team.Better pool of talent, greater access to Capital funding, yeah sure the economies in the ****s now but it'll recover in time, in short time

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If you want a bigger pool of talent, pick even more Brits in your team and stop whining? Or daydream, like you're doing about economic recovery short-term.

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Look at rugby, we're one of the worlds best teams....Ireland! up there with the best. Irelands call is always majestically roared out in Croker, and soon to be Lansdowne

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If you love rugby union so much, watch it instead.

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in footballs sake i mean do you not agree that on the international front we could progress far further than both sides currently do now?

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No, I think we'd still be mediocre in the mid- to long-term. Look at the records. NI had an excellent squad in the early and mid 80s, you ditto for a longer period from the mid 80s to mid 90s. Both teams have been decidely third rate for much of the time since, and arguably for decades beforehand. A notional team with six million population and one or two part-time leagues to call on isn't necessarily going to see off Norway, Scotland or Switzerland in European qualifiers, let alone the really big teams.

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Originally Posted by Predator

Whatever about the actual number of all-Ireland team advocates in the current set of NI fans, surely Northern Irish society should have a big say?

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Why not test it yourself? Stand for Derry City Council/ Stormont/ Westminster/ Dail Eireann via Donegal NE/ the European Parliament on a single issue 'let's abolish the NI team' ticket. You'll romp home, I don't think.

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I'd say some players might promote such an idea for the future generations of footballers on the island, since there are a fair few possible positives in it

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There are no postivies in it for us (NI fans), and no need for you (RoI fans, including players within that group). Ergo there's no realistic likelihood of it happening.

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Could you truly not bring yourself to roar on a team containing a few lads from Belfast, Derry and Newry, as well as lads from Dublin, Donegal, Cork and Galway? Is it that abhorrent

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Come on Pred, you can do better than that. It's about YOU wanting to effectively abolish our team, not our unwillingness to embrace players from the South. Go back up-thread and you'll see that as a cricket fan I support an Ireland side recently including three players from Dublin, as well as others originally from Australia, South Africa, New Zealand and Pakistan ;)

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I've read some threads on OWC though, that are disheartening, in that they simply ridicule the idea and deny it any space to develop, but for obvious reasons I understand

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I'm ridiculing it here, it's ridiculous, irritating and mildly offensive.

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Originally Posted by ramondo

even if it meant the team known as "The Republic of Ireland" no longer existed. We could live with that. I think

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The team would be called Ireland, just as you call yours now. It would play almost all games in the South, with tricolors waving and the Soldiers' Song played every time your president attended. Many of your fans, media etc. would regard it, quite logically as a takeover of our team losing your team nothing. For the 42nd time on this thread alone, we're not interested!

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I would think I speak for the majority of ROI supporters in saying that "getting one over" on NI supporters, or somehow trying to "abolish" their team is not the motivation here

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I've no idea what proportion of RoI supporters agree with you, but whatever it is you are simply wrong. There's no other plausible explanation for getting rid of NI's team when a perfectly adequate all-Ireland-plus-numerous-diaspora-from-Britain side already exists.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Why not just keep two teams, the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland - teams that we're equally as proud of and passionate about?:confused:

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Here here!

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Originally Posted by Gather round

But as keeps being mentioned and you seem unwilling/ unable to grasp, there's already an effective united Ireland side, one that can and does choose players from all across the 32 counties, not to mention Glasgow, Lancashire, Nottinghamshire and Birmingham.

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Why do you keep "digging" at the fact that the ROI picks 2nd and 3rd generation Irish? It has nothing to do with the discussion re: merging the two associations.

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Originally Posted by boovidge

Why do you keep "digging" at the fact that the ROI picks 2nd and 3rd generation Irish? It has nothing to do with the discussion re: merging the two associations

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I'm digging to answer your (plural) digging, and because it IS relevant to the point. If you're claiming that the main motivation is to have a united Ireland team with access to a 32-county plus diaspora playing pool (as opposed to just stirring to irritate NI fans), then I'm merely reminding you that your current team has three Englishmen, a Scot and a guy from Derry in it. You don't need to merge any associations to maintain- or even increase- that proportion.

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Originally Posted by BYCTWD

They do too, Maik Taylor etc

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Actually Taylor doesn't claim to be third generation (or any generation at all) Northern Irish. He and the IFA exploited the rules as they were then.

But there's a huge difference. I'm not arguing to abolish the RoI team just so we can bring in Joe Murphy or Kieren Westwood when Taylor and Given retire.

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the fact the IFA are a 'home nation' with inordinate power for their size means the blazers in Belfast will never give up their perks, and why would they

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The 'inordinate power' is just your opinion. The IFA has a vote in FIFA and UEFA, just like Liechtenstein or Andorra. And like the English, Scots and Welsh we have an ex-officio place on the international board (basically a committee that reviews the laws of the game and the like). There's no inherent reason for this perk continuing and I'd have no problem if it disappeared tomorrow. But you're mising- perhaps deliberately- the point; the IFA and NI side will continue to exist because that's what 100% of its fans want. It has little to do with the blazers- although if it did, the argument would presumably apply equally to your own blazers in the FAI?

I'm not really interested in the political side of an AIL (which I think is the vast majoriy of the desire for it), but I'm not convinced it would do much to imporve the standard of football (or more to the point, there are lots of other things far more feasible that would have a better impact on the standard of LOI football).

The NI fans on here (mostly) don't want to merge with the FAI, or indeed, anybody. I can't see any real reson to make them.

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Originally Posted by osarusan

I'm not really interested in the political side of an AIL (which I think is the vast majoriy of the desire for it), but I'm not convinced it would do much to imporve the standard of football (or more to the point, there are lots of other things far more feasible that would have a better impact on the standard of LOI football)

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I'm in favor of the Setanta cup or similar (it would be a shame if it petered out before Crusaders' recent mini-revival). If it attracted sustained interest (large crowds, new sponsors and the rest) over say five years, then we could consider expanding it into a league structure. Until then, as you say, let's concentrate on improving the existing leagues.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Firstly, the team represents the Irish Football Association (A Company, and member of FIFA). It's the IFA, it's International team supporters, and FIFA who have the say.

Sainsbury's may wish they could be merged with Tescos - many consumers might like that too. However, the Management of Sainsburys and Tescos are the decision makers on the issue.

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Fair point.

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Secondly, I would much rather support a team consisting of players from (or eligible to play for) Northern Ireland. I have little or no affinity with players from Dublin, Cork, Galway, or Donegal.

It, therefore, is not something I could passionately "roar on".

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Each to their own.

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Again, I ask why can't you respect the choice of those who wish to play for/support Northern Ireland?

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I do respect the choice of those people, but that does not preclude me from discussing a hypothetical situation, however ridiculous it might seem to some.

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Originally Posted by Gather round

But as keeps being mentioned and you seem unwilling/ unable to grasp, there's already an effective united Ireland side, one that can and does choose players from all across the 32 counties, not to mention Glasgow, Lancashire, Nottinghamshire and Birmingham. So in practice no-one needs to hypothesise. It'd be like hypothesising about it raining in Aughnacloy next week. Given that, there's no reason to get rid of the existing NI side. You'll struggle to find a single current player in favor of that.

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As I've said, I acknowledge that there is an effective united Ireland team, but it's not the same as having one international football entity, as you obviously know.

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Why not test it yourself? Stand for Derry City Council/ Stormont/ Westminster/ Dail Eireann via Donegal NE/ the European Parliament on a single issue 'let's abolish the NI team' ticket. You'll romp home, I don't think.

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Ha, it would probably be a first! Seriously though, I still think it's an issue which should see the consultation of the population of Northern Ireland (as well as the Republic) as they are all prospective fans.

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There are no postivies in it for us (NI fans), and no need for you (RoI fans, including players within that group). Ergo there's no realistic likelihood of it happening.

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There are no positives in it for NI fans who are not in favour of a united Ireland team, but for those NI fans (including prospective NI fans) who are in favour, there are positives.

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Come on Pred, you can do better than that. It's about YOU wanting to effectively abolish our team, not our unwillingness to embrace players from the South. Go back up-thread and you'll see that as a cricket fan I support an Ireland side recently including three players from Dublin, as well as others originally from Australia, South Africa, New Zealand and Pakistan ;)

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True, there would be an effective abolition of two teams in favour of one team in this proposition, but that is obviously not solely the issue for some fans. Not Brazil says he would find it difficult to cheer on a united Ireland team as passionately, since he feels little to no affinity to the Republic of Ireland. You don't have that problem though ;)

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I'm ridiculing it here, it's ridiculous, irritating and mildly offensive.

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Lots of things have been labelled ridiculous in the past, they weren't all necessarily so!

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The team would be called Ireland, just as you call yours now. It would play almost all games in the South, with tricolors waving and the Soldiers' Song played every time your president attended. Many of your fans, media etc. would regard it, quite logically as a takeover of our team losing your team nothing. For the 42nd time on this thread alone, we're not interested!

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42 times huh?! Jaysus. I think it's clear that such a scenario could be avoided if there was an equal amount of input from the IFA and NI fans, but of course, it could be avoided altogether if it wasn't given any credence whatsoever, which is what you and NB have been doing. Then again, maybe it will happen eventually and the lack of input from NI fans would encourage the 'takeover' attitude.

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Originally Posted by Gather round

I'm digging to answer your (plural) digging, and because it IS relevant to the point. If you're claiming that the main motivation is to have a united Ireland team with access to a 32-county plus diaspora playing pool (as opposed to just stirring to irritate NI fans), then I'm merely reminding you that your current team has three Englishmen, a Scot and a guy from Derry in it. You don't need to merge any associations to maintain- or even increase- that proportion.

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I still don't see why English and Scottish born players are relevent to the discussion. Any possible merger of the FAI and IFA would not have any bearing on eligibility rules regarding these players whatsoever.

I'm not in favour of an all Ireland team btw.

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Originally Posted by Predator

There are no positives in it for NI fans who are not in favour of a united Ireland team, but for those NI fans (including prospective NI fans) who are in favour, there are positives.

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Maybe I'm missing something, but what positives could a fan of NI see in the disappearance of NI (as opposed to ROI or a united Ireland team) as a football team?

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Originally Posted by osarusan

Maybe I'm missing something, but what positives could a fan of NI see in the disappearance of NI (as opposed to ROI or a united Ireland team) as a football team?

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This is going on the assumption that there are a small number (Not Brazil says under 5%) of NI fans who would be perhaps in favour of an all-Ireland team.

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Originally Posted by Predator

This is going on the assumption that there are a small number (Not Brazil says under 5%) of NI fans who would be perhaps in favour of an all-Ireland team.

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That would be to say that greater than 95% of Northern Ireland fans OPPOSE any merger with anyone.

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Originally Posted by Gather round

I'm in favor of the Setanta cup or similar (it would be a shame if it petered out before Crusaders' recent mini-revival). If it attracted sustained interest (large crowds, new sponsors and the rest) over say five years, then we could consider expanding it into a league structure. Until then, as you say, let's concentrate on improving the existing leagues.

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I've been a supporter of the Setanta Cup - unfortunately, it has not harnassed anything like the degree of interest some would have thought it might.

Whether that's the set up of the competition, I don't really know.

However, it does nothing to suggest that a LOI + two or three IL Clubs will be the saiour of Club football on this island.

Best to concentrate on improving the existing leagues as you, quite rightly, say.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

That would be to say that greater than 95% of Northern Ireland fans OPPOSE any merger with anyone.

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Except no-one has ever put your equivocal statement to the test....;)
And there's no reason why we can't try to re-educate them.
As you keep telling us they're :rolleyes: 'Irish'. Except the majority would say they're not.

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Originally Posted by Predator

As I've said, I acknowledge that there is an effective united Ireland team, but it's not the same as having one international football entity, as you obviously know.

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This is at the crux of the matter.

Why do you wish to trample all over the desire of the overwhelming majority of Northern Ireland fans' to see our International side retain it's autonmomy, especially against a background of the FAI having the pick of the 32 Counties players?

Can you see that this can be perceived as an aggressive attitude, which completely disrespects the right of choice?

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Originally Posted by osarusan

Maybe I'm missing something, but what positives could a fan of NI see in the disappearance of NI (as opposed to ROI or a united Ireland team) as a football team?

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A team that represents them and qualifies for Finals periodically. As opposed to once a generation or less. And there should be a mutual benefit hopefully.

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

Except no-one has ever put your equivocal statement to the test....;)
And there's no reason why we can't try to re-educate them.
As you keep telling us they're :rolleyes: 'Irish'. Except the majority would say they're not.

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You put it to the test all to the test all you like - why don't you organise a survey of Northern Ireland block bookers?

Rather than use wee winky smilies (as if I haven't got the mood of Northern Ireland fans bang on the money on the issue) would that not be more practical, and, perhaps, prove me wrong?

You can try and "re-educate" all you like - I would respectfully suggest that attitudes like that expressed in the very first post on this thread, and your subsequent labelling of Unionists (and by your inference, Northern Ireland fans) isn't going to do much "re-educating".

To correct you, I have stated that I'm Irish (and British) - how others amongst the Northern Ireland fan base identify themselves is a matter for their choice.

I refuse to denounce my Irishness because of the myopic view of what that means, espoused by some - I am, afterall, a supporter of the IRISH Football Association's International representative teams.

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

A team that represents them and qualifies for Finals periodically. As opposed to once a generation or less. And there should be a mutual benefit hopefully.

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I would much rather Northern Ireland never qualified again, but still competed as Northern Ireland, than disappear.

I am wholly represented by a team called Northern Ireland - no tweaking of that neccessary, thanks all the same.

Looks like you'll get your wish then. ;)

Though I'm glad you speak for the whole population of N.E. Ulster. They would be very :rolleyes: proud.