And look at what happened to him for his trouble! (though perhaps he considered himself to be Irish anyway).Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fly
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And look at what happened to him for his trouble! (though perhaps he considered himself to be Irish anyway).Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fly
I don't know what your evidence is supported by.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
My evidence is supported by the text of the 1956 ACT, the interpretations of this act by the highest legal minds and its unchallenged application up to the time of the GFA.
Irish Statute Book
Citizenship
6.—(1) Every person born in Ireland is an Irish citizen from birth.
Formalities to be complied with in certain cases
7.—(1) Pending the re-integration of the national territory, subsection (1) of section 6 shall not apply to a person, not otherwise an Irish citizen, born in Northern Ireland on or after the 6th December, 1922, unless, in the prescribed manner, that person, if of full age, declares himself to be an Irish citizen or, if he is not of full age, his parent or guardian declares him to be an Irish citizen. In any such case, the subsection shall be deemed to apply to him from birth.
(2) Neither subsection (2) nor (4) of section 6 shall confer Irish citizenship on a person born outside Ireland if the father or mother through whom he derives citizenship was also born outside Ireland, unless—
( a ) that person's birth is registered under section 27, or
( b ) his father or mother, as the case may be, was at the time of his birth resident abroad in the public service.
As can be read, a declaration of citizenship had to be made. In this declaration was the text to uphold the constitution. In the Dept of For. Affairs, in the application for passport for NI born, this extra requirement was mandatory.
Have you access to a copy of the said declaration?Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
That may be your interpretation. But autonomy was not challenged by the FIFA compromise. At best, you could claim in a mistaken belief that the autonomy was under attack and that was the reason for the IFA rejection of the compromise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
However, my interpretation that the 2 associations had a stubborn belief in their position re the statutes of eligibility carries much more gravitas :)
The belief of the IFA was not based on autonomy, it was based on (mistaken) interpretation of the eligibility statutes. It was based on protecting on what they regarded as the pool of players available to be selected for the NI team.
As has been demonstrated, the IFA have been proved very willing to apply the rules of eligibility as they exist, to the selection of players for their team without any threat coming to the autonomy of the IFA.
Check your grandparents, surely once upon a time they would have had a copy framed and displayed :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
I have had no personal need to declare citizenship or apply for a passport under those circumstances.
It is surely enough for the purposes of my main point, to accept the central point of how the subtle changes that came about in the GFA affected FIFA´s position re eligibility.
The significance of that subtle change was missed by me for quite some time until somebody I knew kept pointing it out and observed how it was mentioned by the FIFA legal head (Herrera?).
With two Associations picking from exactly the same pool of players, throughout the 32 Counties, creating, de facto, Ireland "A" and Ireland "B" teams, you think that would have continued long?:eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
In reality, the "subtle changes" are largely irrelevant, in the context that anyone born in Northern Ireland who wanted to "declare" themselves an Irish Citizen pre GFA could and did.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
In essence, nothing important changed.
IF FIFA is basing it's Irish eligibility solution on the text of the GFA, there could be many interesting twists long into the future.
Maybe not. But remember this is the internet, not a face-to-face conversation. You- and I, and everyone else- need to explain what we mean...Quote:
Originally Posted by Fly
I listed numerous parties they could vote for. All are 'viable'. I react to how people vote as I described above.Quote:
Once again, for which party do you expect those people to vote for? Which party presents a viable alternative at this time? Does a 'Northern Ireland Nationalist Party' exist GR? I'll resist answering for you
True recently (although I do read OWC regularly, two or three times per week). There are various reasons for this- not least that there isn't a regular thread on OWC effectively saying 'let's abolish the NI side'.Quote:
you do post a lot more on foot.ie than you do on your own supporters website - OWC
Got it in one. Did you really think I thought otherwise?Quote:
In addition to this, if you believe that the SDLP and SF are "basically single issue parties", then I'll assume, quite reasonably, that you believe the UUP and DUP to be likewise
I have thanks, at school, university and since. It's one FELL swoop btw.Quote:
Change happens in increments, not in one foul swoop! I recommend that you read the works of Edmund Burke
Not at all dense, thanks. I understand your basic points for all the semi-coherent waffle you've wrapped them in. I know quite well how d'Hondt works.Quote:
It's not the same in England, I'll ask you again; are you being deliberately dense? The assembly here in NI does not operate on the 'first past the post' system, unless you have forgotten. It is based on the principle of power-sharing under the D'Hondt method to ensure that Northern Ireland's largest political communities, the Unionist and Nationalist communities both participate in governing the region
Yes, thanks. I know equally well how the APNI having first joined it as a student many years ago. Why are you telling me/ the thread at tedious length what you learned in Politics GCSE? I already know it and it's irrelevant to the issue- IFA, remember?Quote:
The only 'substantial' cross-community party in Northern Ireland is the Alliance Party, which officially designates itself as 'Other'. Despite this, it has remained a minnow in NI politics. Are you keeping up this time GR?
If you don't want to be patronised, don't do it yourself, there's a good chap?
Quite possibly. The consensus, obviously is the stumbling block. And recent events suggest we can hardly rely on FIFA to act reasonably in every case...Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Aye, I could see it happening mid-term IF the Setanta Cup was a sustained success.Quote:
An AI league could easily happen without an AI team, no?
I'd agree with the broad point- self-analysis is no bad thing- and the specific. We should have dropped the case a lot earlier than we did. What's needed, I think, is a mutual agreement with the FAI that once a player has represented internationally as an adult- over 18- he should be tied. U-19, U-21, friendlies as well as qualifiers.Quote:
In the longer term however, it may prove to be a good thing for the future of football in NI - if it promotes a certain self-examination within the IFA and Northern Ireland footballing circles in general
Ask any of your mates in say, Detroit if they ever visit the nearby town of Windsor (no pun intended) over the river. You know what separates them? That's right, a border...Quote:
Originally Posted by Irish fan 86
Nice slogan. But you've already got a united Ireland team, without abolishing our team.Quote:
Working together we can achieve so much more than we can apart- okay we may lose a bit of our old identity, an identity based on differences rather than common ground- but we will create a new identity as one Irish team, stronger, more competitive, and most importantly, united
No, we understand it perfectly well. You can call it what you like, but we'll continue quite reasonably to see it as a planned takover which we oppose totally. Whether or not you regard your own team and FA as having been abolished at the same time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Third Policeman
Don't be absurd. It's about abolishing the NI team!Quote:
Your argument has nothing to do with football, but everything to do with a Unionist siege mentality
I'm sorry you feel uncomfortable, we will continue to try to make you and others feel welcome. But...Quote:
where the NI team is one of the few remaining embelms of seperateness. As someone who was brought up supporting NI first, this is eaxctly what makes me uncomfortable
It clearly isn't, so equally frankly there's a limit to the extent to which any reasoned discussion with you on the issue is possible.Quote:
If the NI team is nothing more than Orangism at play, then quite frankly it probably should be abolished
Less than 3 million, I believe. Do you mean Slovakia?Quote:
Originally Posted by Janey Mac
Make your mind up. Either we're not England as well (and thus seen to be neutral, like you), or we're reliant on English support to be noticed. We can hardly be both at the same time.Quote:
More than likely why Irish people do well in these organisations is that we are not England and are seen to be neutral, whereas the IFA are just about hanging in there because of the English influence. Without English support, I'd say no notice whatsoever would be taken of the Home Nations
Whether you regard that as irrelevant is in fact irrelevant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
The subtle change to entitlement to automatic citizenship was not irrelevant to FIFA as demonstrated by the mention of this clause in the GFA by FIFA legal department - automatic equal right to permanent citizenship no matter where born.
It is questionable whether FIFA would have continued to support the rights of NI born to declare for the FAI, if their permanent citizenship rights were less automatic because of place of birth.
"IF" and "could" being the operative words in that piece.Quote:
IF FIFA is basing it's Irish eligibility solution on the text of the GFA,there could be many interesting twists long into the future
There is no such Irish eligibility solution. The FIFA statutes on eligibility were framed before there was "Irish problem" and reworded afterwards to support previous stated interpretations. The text of the GFA is that part of the Irish constitution re citizenship, which satisfies FIFA statutes.
It does not take a brain surgeon to work out that should the Irish constitution change re citizenship then the FIFA eligibility requirements may not be met.
But FIFA will not be changing their eligibility statutes based on the that.
My point is that association unity is a much more important factor (ahead of political unity) should an All Ireland team be up for consideration.
On the contrary, in fact, the fact that I consider the "subtle changes" irrelevant, is, in fact, relevant in the context of what you are saying.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
Pre GFA, what was there in FIFA Statutes to hinder someone born in Northern Ireland, "declaring" themselves a Citizen of the Irish Republic, and being eligible, therefore, to play for the Republic Of Ireland, given that after such a "declaration", Citizenship of the Irish Republic was inferred from birth?
A case of "there you go Sir, I was an Irish Citizen from birth"
I was thinking of something completely different to you viz a viz Citizenship and Eligibility ie. British Citizens (which is how many born in Northern Ireland would remain in a "Unified" Ireland, for generations), and whom they could play for.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
Anyhow - for another day that one.
For the umptenth time, there IS an All Ireland team - that doesn't need to be "considered" - it's here, it's now. It represents the FAI.
The other Association on the island, the IFA, has no intentions whatsoever of "unifying" with any other Association. Neither do the supporters of the IFA's International representative sides.
Those wishes should be respected, and the principle of choice (as clarified by FIFA in their deliberations over Irish Citizens in Northern Ireland) upheld.
Don't post here much. I am a northern nationalist who supports the Republic, and do so for a number of reasons. All my family are from Wicklow or Kerry and I am living & working in Dublin, and intend to remain. I consider NI to be my 2nd team (I also would cheer for Scotland), and would like to have seen both teams qualify for the world cup. NI were my joint favorite team (ie I had no preference) until November 1993, but that's another (well-documented) story.
I think anyone who is trying to change minds of unionist minded "NI fans" are wasting their time. I mean this as distinct from "football fans from Northern Ireland", a much larger group including myself.
Most of the current "NI fans" by nature will see little wrong with the current anthems issue (the flag issue is probably not entirely the IFA's fault) that alienates people like myself from supporting NI. I sometimes here nice words like "I would like a neutral anthem but hate Danny Boy/Ireland's Call so what can you do?:rolleyes: ha ha ha etc" but there is no real desire on the ground for any action in this regard.
There is also a thinly veiled hatred for the Republic, and by extension nationalist Ireland (which includes myself!). If you visit their website, Our Wee Country, you will see this blatantly. Indeed the poster Ealing Green on this website put this lovely ditty up there (and as such I find his early statement here that he was not posting here "Due to personal reservations about the lack of objectivity" to be somewhat hypocritical):
"You put your left hand in,
You put your left hand out
In, Out, In, Out,
Shake it all about,
You hand the ball to Gallas,
Who gives it a clout,
And that put the Beggars Out!
Oh Terry Terry Henry
Oh Willy Willy Gallas
Oh Dopey Swedish Linesman
Oh they put the Beggars Out, Out, Out!"
Charming. Despite this prevailing attitude there is a silent minority who avoid the politics and for them as such I give some support for the team, in the same sense that NI's leading goalscorer went to school in the same town as me. Many coaches work tirelessly for the IFA coaching kids in rough areas of Belfast and other Northern towns/cities, and great credit must be given to them for the time and effort spent.
As regards bringing the two associations together again, I do not think this should happen in the near future. It would not be good for the FAI or geninue Irish supporters, and that is all I care about really. With the Darren Gibson case being rightly resolved in favour of the FAI, northern nationlists in the future have a clear path to represent a proper international team.
The point that some posters make about destroying 'their' team is valid to a certain extent, and I can see their point if one views the team with such blinkers ie that for example Derry and Donegal are foreign from each other. This in untrue, as an act pass by their (UK) parliament testifies:
http://www.wiki.ie/wiki/Ireland_Act_1949
Indeed with a similar blinkered approach, you can understand the FAI poaching argument. Sadly for the reasons stated above, 'their' team will never be 'my' team. And most "NI fans" do not seem to bothered about that. In this regard I know a lot of people from all over NI who live in the nationalist community, and while hostility to the team has receded somewhat, actual support is still very low. There are exceptions btw, I know 2 people who support NI (out of many!)
The IFA launched a football for all campaign during the last few years which has addressed some of the minor, but sadly few of the major, issues regarding the perception of the international team throughout Northern Ireland.
With this in mind, their actions regarding the Darren Gibson case was quite depressing and sadly predictable. It demonstrated that the IFA wanted a Unionist-tinted team, but that nationalists had to play for it or else they had no international career. They need to either:
-Drop the Darren Gibson case and opposition to northern nationalists play for the Republic and they can quitely shelve the pretense of Football For All. I think they will end up doing this.
or
-Embrace the anthems issue once and for all, and implement the recommendations of the report that they commissioned (Sunday football has since been permitted) and face down the predictable Unionist opposition to this.
Independently, I woud like to see an all-Ireland league. I think comments people would make about the hooligan element increasing are somewhat mistaken, most trouble to me seems to happpen in Linfield/Glentoran or Rovers/Bohs matches (i.e city derbies) and as such there would be little difference in this context. Whether it would improve the quality of the LOI immediately I doubt at the moment, but it would certainly improve interest over a number of years.
You do not understand the meaning of inferQuote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
Pre GFA
one could not infer that a person, proven born in NI, was an Irish citizen. Whereas one could infer that a person proven born in the Republic was an Irish citizen.
The removal of that subtle difference between the rights of those born in the Republic and NI, took on value once the IFA challenged the right of NI born to declare for the FAI.
Just like we can infer that anybody born in NI is eligible to play for NI without any documentation of UK citizenship because the inference is based on the automatic rights contained within the UK Nationality act. Proof of birth is enough to support that inference.
We'll try again:Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
Pre GFA, what was there in FIFA Statutes to hinder someone born in Northern Ireland, "declaring" themselves a Citizen of the Irish Republic, and being eligible, therefore, to play for the Republic Of Ireland, given that after such a "declaration", Citizenship of the Irish Republic was applied from birth?
A case of "there you go Sir, I was an Irish Citizen from birth"
The answer is definately not. I have already explained numerous times the meaning in my posts, mostly I might add, for your benefit alone. Other posters seem to be able to grasp them quite easilyQuote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
Viable in a Northern Ireland context - I don't think so!Quote:
I listed numerous parties they could vote for. All are 'viable'. I react to how people vote as I described above.
As your posts have already displayed how obtuse you are, your reactions to how people vote in NI doesn't surprise me.
Recently?.......hmmm.......you joined OWC on the 2nd of April, 2005. In this time you have posted 298 times. You joined foot.ie in April 2006, in this time you have posted 589 times - almost twice as much in considerably less time! OWC contains many more threads on the NI v ROI theme than foot.ie does, yet you are not compelled to post with the anyhere near the regularity with which you do here. This tells it's own story!Quote:
True recently (although I do read OWC regularly, two or three times per week). There are various reasons for this- not least that there isn't a regular thread on OWC effectively saying 'let's abolish the NI side'.
There isn't a regular thread saying 'lets abolish the NI side' on foot.ie.
On occasion, a thread appears which puts forward the idea of having one amalgated all-island side. Technically speaking this would also abolish the ROI side, or has that, along with clarity of thought and perception, escaped you as well.
It's hard to tell with you GR.Quote:
Got it in one. Did you really think I thought otherwise?
I did not mention d'Hondt to tell you how it works, I mentioned it to reiterate that the NI political system works along 'tribal' lines.Quote:
Not at all dense, thanks. I understand your basic points for all the semi-coherent waffle you've wrapped them in. I know quite well how d'Hondt works.
You're a bit dense in fairness.
The Alliance Party, as you know, has existed in NI for quite some time and has remained a minnow/fringe party ever since. Why?...because for the vast majority of the NI electorate it doesn't represent a 'viable' alternative. It's intentions may be laudable, but it doesn't reflect NI society.Quote:
Yes, thanks. I know equally well how the APNI having first joined it as a student many years ago. Why are you telling me/ the thread at tedious length what you learned in Politics GCSE? I already know it and it's irrelevant to the issue- IFA, remember?
The issue that sparked off this was not the IFA, but a lack of Northern Irish statehood/national identity.
You stated that:
"It follows from the tangible evidence that hundreds of thousands of people in Northern Ireland who don't 'identify' with it (probably the majority of them) demonstrate that lack of identity by by voting in every election for parties whose main political program is that, er Northern Ireland shouldn't exist."
Please clarify how you would expect the nationalist population of NI, and indeed the entire electorate of NI, to demonstrate their 'Northern Irish' identity.
Also, please explain how the SDLP's main political program is that NI should not exist. Were all those years under John Hume merely a front, masking his true intentions? :rolleyes:
I don't think that it is literally possible to be patronised by you GR.Quote:
If you don't want to be patronised, don't do it yourself, there's a good chap?
Wow, this thread really is getting out of hand.
Good shout that dantheman.Quote:
Originally Posted by dantheman
We have a Northern Ireland Supporters Club in Donegal.
Is someone born in Donegal entitled to British Citizenship as an automatic right?
Are they eligible to play for Northern Ireland - as I'm sure the sons of our SC members there would aspire to?
If not, does that make him/her "different" to a guy born in Derry?
If so, what's your point?:confused:
PS: Thon Irish Citizenship Act (1956) geysir posted earlier is very sexist indeed - remarkable, given the legal brains that must have gone into it's construction. Probably an illegal document, if it existed today.;)
After you questioned the extra declaration needed for NI born needed pre GFA to obtain Irish citizenship, I took the time to provide exact relevant links and not a word of thanks was received for my efforts,Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
instead you resorted to a statement of its irrelevance anyway
So do your own research.
GFA 1998, check out what the FIFA statutes were at that time.
Under the 2004 statutes, citizenship was enough,
That citizenship eligibility issue was challenged by the IFA,
FIFA legal dept. copped onto the automatic rights to citizenship contained with the GFA, referred a number of times to automatic right to citizenship.
Conditional right to citizenship has a lesser value and could easily have fallen into the other FIFA statutes of eligibility where Association territory is referred to. Read up on it yourself
.
Yes - I'm curious to know what (declaring) "in the prescribed manner" entailed.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
I do thank you for posting the link to the Act - it was informative, to a point.
In context of current discussions, I contend that it is largely irrelevant.
Edit:
I have discovered that (declaring) "in the prescribed manner" was never defined by the Govt of the Irish Republic, pertaining to Part 7 (1) of the 1956 Act - in other words, those from Northern Ireland, post 1956 Citizenship and Nationality Act, didn't have take any "oath of allegiance" in order to be an Irish Citizen.
That's fine - you still haven't answered the question as to what in the FIFA Statutes was different, that would have precluded a player born in Northern Ireland, obtaining Citizenship of the Irish Republic, and declaring for the Republic Of Ireland International team, pre GFA.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
Nothing, as you know my good man.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
Geysir, the only thing that precluded a player born in Northern Ireland from declaring for the Republic of Ireland pre GFA, was the 'Gentleman's Agreement' that existed between the two associations.
The best post to date on the topic.Quote:
Originally Posted by dantheman
The Hypocrisy is depressing but predictable. If only if it because it makes a mockery of the IFA's laudable aims to embrace their wider populace.
Unsurprisingly I guess (& certainly not on here) the silent minority of fans of the North of which you speak and especially those involved directly in coaching, who have neither the time or resources to show such overt levels of prejudice, must feel so frustrated about such raw hatred.
The fellow who designed the 'alternative' Ulster flag on that other forum, who I know of via a mutual acquaintance, was ridiculed for advocating change, but that's what he & that minority are up against.
One small crumb of comfort though, from the marginally younger generation from someone who should support the North (he played for them in schoolboy trials), was a sincere message of consolation re. recent events....
If the same ever happened to 'his' lot, it's one person to whom it'd be reciprocated.
The real issue of hypocrisy centres on those who lauded the right of choice (with which I agree) who now seek to deny choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Yes - but you get the gist that there is a critical mass and after that is reached it doesn't make too much difference.Quote:
=Gather round;1290494
Less than 3 million, I believe. Do you mean Slovakia?
No, the IFA are between a rock and a hard place. Within FIFA/EUFA, the IFA are stuck hanging onto the coat tails of England (within the Home Nations). In the meantime every other country will be doing their best to put one over on England/Home Nations. You are probably also resented by most other nations because that effectively one country, the UK has four teams & somewhere like the Peoples' Republic of China with a population of 1.2 bn (with 48 different nationalities within its borders) with potential for real potential, has one Association, not to mention a country like Monaco cannot get FIFA/EUFA recognition.Quote:
Make your mind up. Either we're not England as well (and thus seen to be neutral, like you), or we're reliant on English support to be noticed. We can hardly be both at the same time.
Except that the likes of Michael Walker have never made any comments about choice. Purely about improving the pool of potential players and thus the strength of any notional team, as has happened in numerous other sports. Which are happy enough to call themselves :rolleyes: Ireland!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
And we know you don't want it, but we can at least query other discrepancies raised by 'dtm' amongst others, about certain other 'ethics' highlighted.
Which aren't necessarily to deny 'choice', though you wouldn't think it from the level of paranoia on here or elsewhere, everytime someone suggests a UI team.
The whole Gibson episode has been very educational really - when you actually see how the NI fans resist even minor change (ie., flags & anthem) the best solution has been reached.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
I do feel sorry though for the likes of Evans who will never get a chance to play in a major competition - how he will envy most his team mates at Man United.
No need to feel sorry for Mr Evans - he's as proud as punch to play for Northern Ireland, as will his kid brother be in the near future.Quote:
Originally Posted by janeymac
This "improvement" (currently that would be Evans and who else?) in the pool of players would ultimately result in many, many, players from Northern Ireland denied the opportunity to play International football.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
As Northern Ireland fans, we accept we are underdogs - with a bite.
Players who wouldn't get near a, singular, Irish team, playing International football, and boxing above their weight. That's a joy.
Being patriotic is not "paranoia".
I have no real affinity with players from the Republic Of Ireland - they don't stir my International football passions.
Discussions like these are intersting on many levels - on a personal level, they serve to confirm why I could only ever support one team in International football - Northern Ireland.
Aye, I think anyone trying to persuade NI fans that the NI team should be abolished is wasting their time. I doubt the second group you mention is much larger (ie much more than 50% of the football-supporting population in NI), but if you've got some actual evidence to back your claim, let's see it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan the man
Some will, some won't. I'm reasonably content with the existing flag, although I'd prefer no crown on it as I'm not a royalist. I'd prefer a distinct anthem not shared with England, Britain as a whole or Liechtenstein.Quote:
Most of the current "NI fans" by nature will see little wrong with the current anthems issue (the flag issue is probably not entirely the IFA's fault)
Again some think that, many don't. There are plenty of alternatives- nonn-partisan folk instrumental, pop tune, new composition by Coulter or whoever. It may change in future.Quote:
I sometimes here nice words like "I would like a neutral anthem but hate Danny Boy/Ireland's Call so what can you do?"
Of course there is some hatred towards the Republic and local nationalists in NI. Sometimes inevitably this will be demonstrated at football matches or on the web. But a ****-take version of the Hokey cokey's hardly blatant hatred, any more than other fans enjoying others' defeats. Bit exaggerated, don't ye think?Quote:
There is also a thinly veiled hatred for the Republic, and by extension nationalist Ireland (which includes myself!). If you visit their website, Our Wee Country, you will see this blatantly. Indeed the poster Ealing Green on this website put this lovely ditty up there
Good man. As you've seen, the genuinely Irish NI fans ain't interested. So it won't happen.Quote:
It would not be good for the FAI or geninue Irish supporters, and that is all I care about really
Take that chip off your shoulder, Dan. Northern Ireland is an equally proper international team, regularly beats stronger countries and too occasionally challenges to qualify. But as a generally third-ranked/ mediocre achieving squad, it's actually quite similar to the South.Quote:
northern nationlists in the future have a clear path to represent a proper international team
One doesn't need to view with blinkers, or go off on a tangent about an Act of Parliament from 60 years ago. Many posters on this thread are saying the NI team should be abolished, even if they use the euphemism 'merged'. NI fans- 100% of them, self-evidently by definition- don't want this to happen. It's quite simple.Quote:
The point that some posters make about destroying 'their' team is valid to a certain extent, and I can see their point if one views the team with such blinkers
I'd welcome anyone in NI or out who wants to support the team. Similarly those who, even without supporting it and/ or preferring another, will at least tolerate it as they would any other. It's only the RoI fans who constantly have a go at NI that bother me, and who I feel the need the answer on threads like this one.Quote:
Sadly for the reasons stated above, 'their' team will never be 'my' team. And most "NI fans" do not seem to bothered about that
I'm glad the hostility is receding, this is a positive step. As a further anecdotal example, I go to NI matches regularly with two Roman Catholics. I know others. Not sure about the proportion of the support from nationalist backgrounds, but as above if they prefer to support other teams that's fine.Quote:
In this regard I know a lot of people from all over NI who live in the nationalist community, and while hostility to the team has receded somewhat, actual support is still very low. There are exceptions btw, I know 2 people who support NI (out of many!)
Come on, it doesn't demonstrate anything of the sort- everyone knows the NI side has- as well as an admittedly minority nationalist support- plenty of players, coaches etc. from nationalist backgrounds.Quote:
Darren Gibson case was quite depressing and sadly predictable. It demonstrated that the IFA wanted a Unionist-tinted team, but that nationalists had to play for it or else they had no international career
I felt we- NI, IFA, fans- handled the Gibson case badly. He wanted to play for the South's youth teams, made the choice early, has progressed and good luck to the guy. I'd be more iriated if someone like Shane Duffy, who's already played regularly for our u-19 and u-21, then went off to play for the South. To prevent that, I want the IFA to seek a deal with the FAI that any adult player- over 18- who turns out for one of those teams, qualifier or friendly, is thus thereafter.
Sorry Fly, you haven't. You've repeated how dense I am, without much reference to anything I've said here let alone any detailed explanation. You raised, for example, the d'Hondt system and Edmund Burke's theories on the slowness of political change. I don't actually disagree with much of your analysis of them; they're just irrelevant to an argument about why the NI team should be abolished. It just looks like shoehorning in a slew of random facts, just for the sake of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fly
I'm actually quite flattered at your obsessive interest in where I live and how often I post. As I'm sure most others on the thread realise, they're largely irrelevant. If you diasagree with what I say, just reply to it. To correct a few points- I've been reading and contributing to OWC since it started (as a mailing list) in 1999 I think. Similarly, on foot.ie since September 2003. I've used various names- including my real name originally- changing for various reasons including OWC regularly needing re-registration as it moved to larger servers, and a ban from foot.ie when a row about Luis Aragones and racism at Spanish international games got out of hand. OWC doesn't tend to feature threads about the NI side being abolished; they get deleted (I zapped one or two when I was a moderator myself some time back). Unfortunately, this thread on foot.ie is just the latest in a depressingly predictable series. They all say basically the same thing: 'let's take over the Nordies even though their team's rubbish and the fans a bunch of orange bigots'. I see the mods have renamed this one to reflect its predictability.
Sorry Janey, this makes no sense. Other international teams playing NI will do their best to put one over NI. Unless England are in the same group the other teams are unlikely to give them a second thought. I know of no evidence whatever that other countries are that bothered about Britain having four teams, just as there's no real fuss about Denmark having to or somwhere like Andorra (which is basically a duty-free and ski resprt jointly run by France and Spain) appearing in every FIFA/ UEFA competition. Nobody in Spain or China is particularly upset about there being a NI or Wales team- they're much more likely to use it as a justification for getting they're team (if, say, they're a Basque or Galician or one of those 48 nationalities you mentioned). Or they're insistent that autonomous regions aren't allowed to set up their own teams. Nobody- apart from a few stirrers in Ireland- gives a flying fcuk about abolishing any exisiting teams against their fans' wishes. Monaco's club side seems to do well enough in UEFA competitions. Are they really that bothered about not playing the World Cup? I think not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janey Mac
Football's a precarious career, but a player good enough to feature regularly in the Champions' League later stages at 21 has a better chance than most. Compare that with the RoI international side which has reached one finals in the last 15 years. He's no need to envy anyone, least of all you.Quote:
I do feel sorry though for the likes of Evans who will never get a chance to play in a major competition - how he will envy most his team mates at Man United
You have discovered? Well that is absolute isn't it :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
Do some proper research before coming out with your discovery statement, you just might find that part of the passport application for NI born was a declaration of citizenship.
Oh, I have done "proper research".Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
The "prescribed manner" was never defined, nor was there "an oath of allegiance", was there geysir?;)
Hardly a shock, but in direct contradiction of the IFA's 'Football For All'.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
If they must be Hypocrites, why not come out and admit it?
Huh? The South seas? Are you aware of Malin Head?Quote:
it's actually quite similar to the South.
Not only is there no grasp of geography, but the Brits.not teach education in N.E. Ulster?Quote:
Compare that with the RoI international side which has reached one finals in the last 15 years. He's no need to envy anyone, least of all you.
It's two finals in 15 years;1994 & 2002, as opposed to None in 23 years and counting.....
Johnny Evans had better win a lot of club medals!!
;)
Funny enough, I was at a "Football For All" awards Dinner a couple of weeks ago - seems they're doing all right, given the amount of "nationalists" there, who enjoyed the evening.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
It was magnificant to see such a diverse gathering of over 300 people involved in the sport in Northern Ireland - and none of the "nationalists" who received awards for their contribution refused their award.;)
GR made a point about Northern Irish society generally - equally, there are "nationalists" from Northern Ireland who hate the Northern Ireland team, and "unionists".
"Football For All" is about a heck of a lot more than attracting support from the "nationalist" community for the Northern Ireland team - but, hey, you carry on....
It has when you keep rambling on about 'denial of choice'.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
So what is it about then?Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
Bully for you also. Seems from their main 'public' interface and that quote above, you have a long way to go in re-educating some of your fellow fans.....
If you feel so inclined, good luck.
Nothing "paranoid" about telling something for what it is - in this case, denial of choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
"Football For All" is about exactly what it says on the tin - people from Northern Ireland (whether they be nationalist, unionist, neither, male, female, young, old, disabled, from whatever ethnic or religious background etc, etc, etc) enjoying the game of football.
I do, and thank you.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
But where does Walker in his article 'deny' choice?
And FFA is anti-discrimination. As in the anti-Irish & Ireland sentiments portrayed by some on that MB. Who clearly don't believe themselves to be Irish!
That is a very confused and irrational question, beyond repair.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
With some reasonable guesswork, I think you mean to ask
'what part of the FIFA statutes of ELIG 2008 would have precluded a NI born player from declaring for the FAI in the times pre GFA?
If so
Afaics nothing, I never claimed there was.
I have only claimed that the terms of automatic citizenship equally available to all people on the Island, as was in written in the GFA and accepted into law by was influential in FIFA's position right from the beginning of the time of IFA objections.
I do believe, referring to the few quotes from FIFA legal dept at the time that such was the certainity about the equality of citizenship as was impressed upon the FIFA legal dept that the main article of eligibility did not use the term "territory of the Association" but used the all important term 'permanent nationality not dependent on residence' in article 15. The other articles of eligibility drafted in, referred to "territory of the association". Now the likes of Alex Bruce would not qualify.
Who knows how the FIFA legal department would have approached the IFA objections should the conditions of citizenship for NI born not been automatic, equal and voted upon by the people of Ireland. All I claim is that it was an important factor in drafting into the statutes 'permanent nationality not dependent on residence'.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
Here you are supporting your contention that the IFA rejected the FIFA compromise to protect IFA autonomy.
I have said, if that was the reason then it was mistaken and claimed that the IFA rejected the compromise because they stubbornly believed they were 100% right.
Considering that part of the compromise over which the IFA have little or no control is already in practice, what autonomy have the IFA lost?
Considering now, the other other part of the compromise that is not in practice, namely that the IFA would be able select any Irish national, a part that the IFA would have total control of, what autonomy do you think the IFA would have lost?
It is their absolute right to define themselves as they see fit - same for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Unfortunately, they have capitulated to the myopic notion, expressed by many (including yourself) of what constitutes "Irish".
Equally, it isn't too hard to find "Anti Northern Ireland and British" sentiment on message boards.
Ironically some myopic thinkers claim to be "uniters". Bizarre.