Very good.Quote:
Originally Posted by geezer
For the record, the league probably needs a Galway team playing under a Galway moniker aswell.
Mervue seem to be a pretty good setup but I don't think they'll ever be bigger than a Monaghan size because it's a bit parochial.
Thanks for this. I was under the impression it was a one-off game at the home of the Premier league team. Hopefully it wont impact on Shels!Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Maroon
You would assume but you'd never know. I was surprised to hear them talking about it in Waterford but maybe it's wishful thinking down there. We won't know how many of Cobh, Carlow, Tralee and Fanad are invited until December. Initially it was believed to be one but there is scope for 3 to be invited if the FAI decide to opt for a 12 team FD below the planned 12 team premier.Quote:
Originally Posted by adamd164
12 and 12 first with a 16/10 split later would make sense if there are 24 teams that want to be in the league.
Is a club I have massive respect for, and support because im from there. The big competition they have is not GUFC or Salthill its St James GAA , a lot of the young lads in the eastern side of the corrib are training with St James and enjoying it more,Quote:
Originally Posted by Lim till i die
also the GAA season gets longer and longer every year and will cut into membership numbers at clubs like Mervue and the Rugby will cut into Devons numbers. The biggest worry for me is the amount of lads playing for Mervue U19 not from that catchment area this cant be good for local support in the long term and the quality of the brought in players is not as great as people were saying at the start of the u19 season. Mervue Utd was always about spirit and a disciplined yet tough soccer culture, if that gets too diluted they will have the same probs GUFC have suffered over the years
Mr A has it right, a 12/12 pair of leagues. We'll always talk about a pyramid, it'll never come into play so long as football is so divided and an us and them attitude remains. Play offs are good for the game, for clubs and supporters. While our Premier isn't quite at teh sky league standard and it's subsidiary leagues, look at the 2nd division play off series to see how much it can mean. A play off for the title, it's different for most people, but it works in the GAA - you can win your division and still not be champion. I can just picture a Dundalk-UCD play-off final for a spot in the Champions league in 2013 :-)
If it goes back to winter football then i think i'll throw the towel in at that stage.
Er, no it doesn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spudulika
It only "works" insofar as no-one takes the National Leagues seriously. Even hardcore GAA fans don't take the League seriously. In fact, the counties don't even take it seriously, using it as a glorified training session. That's why the GAA can fanny about with the format, because ultimately no-one cares.
It's still important to do well in the league but yeah it is just the league. The GAA themselves don't do the league any favours with the constant restructuring of it. They could also use as seedings when it comes to championship qualifiers but that for a different section and sport!Quote:
Originally Posted by gormacha
I enjoy the league games though, it's good to see how counties are progressing. Some people dismiss it but playing in the highest division is an advantage when it comes to championship.
If 12 & 12 was to come in, the promotion/relegation play-off should be tweaked back to a system of around '02 and '03. FD winner automatically promoted as always with 12th premier relegated. 11th premier should join 2nd, 3rd and 4th from the first division in a four way promotion/relegation play-off. I thought it was a good sytem the two seasons it was used. A reward for finishing in the top 6 of either division could be the extra home game in the following year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spudulika
Playoffs could be a good idea or they could be bad. They'll always be unpopular among supporters of the team that came first in the table, but even so you can rig it in their favour with home advantage. Would anybody be that against, say, Pat's winning a play-off this season having come 4th?
Second, having 16 teams could actually be good for the league, but only if there was no relegation. I know UCD have done amazing work under Russell with the threat of relegation, but has it done anything for Galway and Drogs this season? Arguably Drogs are only able to play with a bit more freedom now because Galway have been so embarrassingly awful. My only concern with that would be that when clubs go bust we'd have nowhere to relegate them to.
Yes it does. Any county boss worth his salt uses the Leagues as a build up for the Championship. They trial different rules in the League or pre-season Cups and keep some and drop others. Check out counties that take the league seriously and their respective Championship results and you'll see the slight fault. Just on football alone there is a guide from who played in the top division finals the last 3 years. And as for hurling, do you seriosuly think Kilkenny use the League as a glorified training session?Quote:
Originally Posted by gormacha
Play offs, if run rightly, can be very good for the LOI, it all depends on the clubs being realistic and the FAI getting good deals in place.
When I say 'real fans', I mean people who are not attracted to a simple league format. If the only way they'll be attracted to LOI is with a title playoff, they can stay away. I don't really think the media would go crazy over it either - there would be little interest until the playoffs actually started.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spudulika
No, of course I won't be turning fans away who are drawn by Limerick's (hopeful) future success. Success brings fans and they'll all be welcome. I just hope that success is in a league system.
I still think there would be plenty of meaningless games with your playoff idea. If the number of teams getting into the playoff is reduced, it means more meaningless games for the teams nowhere near the playoffs, and if the number of teams in the playoffs is increased, it means more meaningless games for the teams whose participation in the playoffs is established 4 or 6 weeks before the end of the regular season. If you look at the table as it is right now, a 4-team playoff system would mean that Bohs would have more of an interest than they probably do now, but the cracking title run-in would be done away with.
Mostly though, I'm against it because it defeats the purpose of having a league in the first place. There's no justification in terms of footballing ability for having a 30 game league to determine the best team in the country in terms of consistency, and then having them in a playoff against teams they've proven themselves better than. It turns the league into a cup, which isn't the purpose of a league.
Your argument simply doesn't hold water. You correctly point out that county bosses "use the League as a build up to the championship", yet deny its effectively regarded as match-hardening training? Kilkenny is a great example, but not for the reasons you point out. They take it seriously insofar as they can blood players, but do they care if they win it? Absolutely not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spudulika
As you point out, they trial all sorts of changes in the Leagues that they would never countenance doing in the Championship. All of this conclusively proves that the Leagues are not taken seriously for their own sake - they are secondary, so the use of playoffs offers more games and a bit of excitement to a competition that no-one really cares if they win or not. They might get a bit excited about it if they find themselves in the final, but they're more concerned about what it tells them about their players for the Championship.
This is not to say that there isn't a coincidence of winners of the league going on to win All-Irelands - in hurling that's happened 5 times in the last 11 years - but prior to that, not once in the previous 12 years did it happen. In fact, of the 24 finalists during that period, only one won an All-Ireland.
Anyway, enough of hurling. My point is that playoffs to win a football league are a cheap gimmick that will not draw in anybody who doesn't already watch LOI, and will annoy the majority of those that already do.
I don't know if we really had the threat of relegation over us this season. By the end of April, we had more points than Galway have now, and we could see they were muck. This season for us was always recouping our losses from last year and building towards next. I think we're a club who generally have a more long-term focus than other clubs (which is why we never win anything in the short-term...), and that's what you're seeing with our recent upturn. For us, this has been one long 2012 pre-season really.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
As you say, a one-team division would kind of making licencing redundant though (not that it's mad effective now of course)
Well said. That's what I wanted to say, but didn't say it as eloquently as that.Quote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
There has to be relegation. Galway clearly shouldn't be in the premier this season, but without a lower division and relegation, you could concievably have that farce extended by another two or three teams who give up for a year to save cash.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
On the wider thread...
I don't think the comparison with the GAA stands to be honest. The league and championship are totally seperate competitions. I'm not sure I buy the theory that the current fans won't go to league games because of a play off at the end, so it'd essentially be about the extra crowds and coverage of playoffs, imo. A winning team in the league would still be a winning team, and that's still the main driver of crowds.
A face - The only recent mention of Winter football has been you!
I'm all against using a play-off. The league champion is the league champion. Other sports have more to gain like the GAA leagues and other sports like the pro 12. It's traditional in European football that the top team wins the league and that is it.Quote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
I don't see the harm in play-offs for other positions though. Not in a premier of 12 but in a premier of 16 I would support a 4-way play-off for the last European spot. The prize of finishing on top will be the league title and CL as normal. Second place will be guaranteed EL. The drawback of finishing in the next 4 places will be missing out on Europe but an opportunity through play-offs. The higher up a team finishes in the league of the 4, the more favourable draw and venue, i.e. being at home, the team will have.
In the first division then, the reward for winning the title should be the only automatic promotion spot. After that either have a direct play-off between second bottom premier and second top FD or include third and fourth of the FD as well. Play-offs like that gives each position something different to play for or avoid. Last placed premier: relegation, second last premier: chance to survive but not safe, 2nd FD: home tie v 3rd place, 3rd place FD: avoid away trip to premier team and 4th place FD: will just have gotten into the play-off, having the toughest tie and path but still a possibility of promotion. In a play-off like that, slightly tweaking the '02-'03 version, the winner of 2nd v 3rd should get the advanage of home tie in the second leg or the one off game.
^^^^ Joke .
Spliting the leauge @ the half-way or 3/4 point would kill it.
No doubt that you have good intentions but you have no financial nouance. From a Dundalk point of view(and this is only my point of view) a split would ruin the club if we were on the wrong side of it.
Leauges are decided by a long of run matches that are played over a certain time with champions and relegation decided therein,spliting a leauge,were goal diffrence could be a deciding factor as to who stays in the top 6 or not is damn crazy.
Tralee must have money behind behind them thats all i can say !!
Absolutely. The idea of staging a play off to decide the league title after the league proper is over is one of the most idiotic suggestions I have ever heard. How do notions such as this ever even get out of someone's head?Quote:
Originally Posted by gormacha
Its mad that people do it in any football. Just a bad rip-off of American sports, where it works as instead of one league, there's three or four mini-leagues that the winners of each progresses to the play-off. It makes absolutely no sense having a play-off for to decide one leagueQuote:
Originally Posted by born2bwild
I think the play-offs idea for EL places is a decent one.
Don't they do playoffs in the netherlands?
Play-offs seem to suit rugby. Taking the Pro 12 for example, clubs will have to play a good number of games without their internationals. There isn't a cup competition either so the Pro 12 grand final provides a cup final. It doesn't suit the GAA at all. They already have the championships. Many supporters want it to return being league only.
We have the FAI Cup final already. There's no need for play-offs for the league title. There's tradition as well. Traditionally the league winner is the team finishing on top. A few countries have gone for the play-offs but that's their decision, it's not really the European way.
6000? Maybe in UCD, the rest of the league will EASILY hit five figure attendances. I look forward to the day in the near future when the best players in England come here instead. Perhaps by 2015?Quote:
Originally Posted by John83
Except for the fact that 16 and 10 is 26 obviously. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr A
Won't help the UEFA coefficient much I'd say.Quote:
Originally Posted by legendz
My point was that we wouldn't have 26 teams next year- 24 is more likely. So 12/12 next year and then 16/10 down the line.
Personally I would love to see a return to winter football. I know theres so many negatives for it as there are positives but my best memories of Limerick and the LOI were back in the late 70's and early 80's where we had 2pm kick offs on Sundays at home. It was also great listening to Philip Green comentating on whatever gane he was at back then too. Anyway, they're just my nostalgic memories...
After all your club has gone through in its 2/3 year history, the weather is the thing that'll make you pack it in? Interesting...Quote:
Originally Posted by A face
He's just that SAD...Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
No doubt they will. I was factoring UCD's negative attendances into the league average.Quote:
Originally Posted by sadloserkid
No offence Joe (because its nothing personal) but they are just memories, and they are not worth a toss to any Club CEO trying to drag a club up off its knees. Nostalgia is priceless, and worthless all at the same time. Philip Green wont be commentating on games. Thats all yester-year and to be short, its not relevant in todays game.Quote:
Originally Posted by joeSoap
There is no issue with the club (truth be told, its really being run very well). The thing that would make me pack it in is the crisis after crisis, year after year, same old problems cropping up and i can contend with that if its moving in a positive direction, barely, even stood still, just as long as it not regression.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
And even though i hate the idea of winter football, if it was a solution to all our problems then i'd suck it up and go with the flow but its not the solution and all the while we are being told "it definitely is", or "sure what harm can it do", and being reminded of the the "bumper crowds" at the Xmas season games (another 1000 at best in 2-3 games, not worth it) it is just more effort, resources, time and patience being poured into something that wont make a blind bit of difference and its less time, effort, resources not being used to improve the league ...... at best its just a waste and nothing should be done until they are sure of what they are doing.
The people who are suggesting it and vote it in should be made culpable, and made answer to the clubs who can quantify any losses being made as a result of the change. Obviously if it all goes swimmingly then they get the bragging rights etc. but the main thing is they are made culpable and possible be excluded from managing anything to do with the league ever again when it goes belly up. Let them take the gamble and see how they get on ...... cos we all know the twits coming up with this crock are the same twits who have the league where it is now ....... getting shot of them could be a blessing in disguise. Let them pick another sport like badminton or something and leave them clutch at straws and move deck chairs about and fanny about with team numbers and summer / winter football and fook that up year after year ad nauseum
Just like those who suggested summer soccer are bing held accountable for the losses being suffered now?Quote:
Originally Posted by A face
It should be done on the basis of research, and there should be tangible benefits across the league given that can be measured a season or two down the line. I 100% agree - it should be done the complete opposite way to the way summer football was introduced. If summer football had been introduced properly, we wouldn't even be having the debate now, as we'd be simply be comparing actual results against the targets it was set to achieve...Quote:
Originally Posted by A face
imo the default should still be winter season, given that's the traditional season, and it should be up to the FAI/ clubs in favour of retaining it to prove it's been a success. However, if I was to pick one out of the two proposals on this thread, extending the top division to 16 is far more crucial for a sustainable league.
I think we need to sort out a few problems first............form what I gather the amateur clubs would never enter the pyramid system because of politics/bitching etc...finance could also be a problem travelling expenses (which are pretty bad i hear!) but the financial aspect is just a simple decision for the FAI (why pay one person 350 000 a year and 22 international millionaires performance fees for 7 or 8 games per year).............. so
1 what do we want (if we are realistic) top tier all-professional division. (by professional I mean the person does this for a living ...no need to pay them loads of money..if you are able to train every day twice a day and earn 500 E a week you will be as good as a gelled-hair-open-shirt-ponce-charater-who-is-on-sky-with-fake-tan footballer!) for me this is more than possible
2 what teams could make up the numbers (21 plus ?????) presmueing we want two divisions of the same size 16 x2 would be tough (as we would need to find 9 new league clubs) or 14x2 (more realistic as we would need ''just'' 7 more)
answer to question two - based on recent 1st division teams and A championships - cobh, kilkenny, tralee, carlow, tullamore, castlebar, fanad, fingal
my personal favourite would be 2x14 divisions (which would be a bit short but would be long enough to be ''acceptable'' as a league and would make for very interesting games....very difficult to have dead-rubber games in a 26 game season)
top 3 qualify for Europe with 4th playing off against league cup winner
bottom two go down and 3rd from bottom face 3rd from top (1st division)
in the fist division , two up with one play off place......but at the bottom it gets complicated. to have relegation to the A championship( WHICH MUST BE KEP FOR CLUB AND PLAYER DEVELOPMENT) I think you need to make it very difficult to go up and down...you must have a sort of barrier to mark the line between ''professional and amateur ' i.e. not just simple 2 up 2 down all the way down the pyramid. if you just have one place at the bottom then the season would get quite boring near the end of the bottom half of the season. so i suggest a relegation play-off involving the bottom four (14th away to 11th and 13 away to 12) with the two losers playing to stay up. then the winner of the A championship (or the highest placed non reserve team would replace them.
the A championship would be divided into 3 groups on geographical basis (south/south west, dublin/east, north) Each premier team MUST provide an A team whcih will give a bassis of 14 teams to which you add a couple of teams who wish to entre the circle (IGNORE THE POLITICS AND EXPENSES FOR THE MOMENT) the three groups can be of differetn sizes and will play each other 2, 3 or 4 times (depending on the size of the group) to play about 15 gmaes a season, of that you take a top eight for quarter, semi and final , winner being promoted to the 1st........ or the highest non-reserve.
the bottom of each group goes into provinal leagues (to be revamped) and the bottom three play-of to avoid going down.Each division under that will have 10 (ish) teams on home and away as is the case already all then each regional committe will decide on small veriations depedning on travel/geographic problems etc
so........ premier 14 teams(home and away/ top 3 europe plus 4th playoff with league cup winner/ bottom 2down with one playoff spot for 12th)
first 14 teams (two up and third in playoff/ bottom four in relegation playoff with the final loser of both games going down)
A championship about 20 teams (in three groups with prem teams forced to have an A team/top eight from the 3 groups go into playoff with the eventual winner going up/bottom team of each group goes down with a relegation playoff between the 3 second last placed to decide who goes into ''senior provincial divisions.....
each provincial division of 10 teams has one winner who goes up into the A championship
the small amount of games is crucial to the irish game (max 30 per league season) because we have seen tiem and tiem again that the irish public don't ''follow'' a team , just go to the big games so this would help to avoid this problem.
The A Championship is finished. Not many clubs want to field a reserve side. If the league gets some stability, it's something that might be looked at again in a few years i.e. a number of reserve sides and a number of aspiring clubs competing in a league aka the A Championship.
Regards Premier and First Division numbers, 26 games in my view is too few. Can 16 clubs secure a Premier licence? Can enough new clubs secure a first division licence? The likeliest most realistic expansion you could get is a Premier of 12 and a First Division of 12.
There are many other issues that need to be looked at. Those lucky enough to be from regions within the League of Ireland are probably best placed to speak on it. All I'll say is with Shamrock Rovers having raised the bar in terms of Europe ambitions, the FAI might want to look at adopting UEFA stadia grades 1-4. It's clearly not something that can come in over night but at least in principle, it should be a goal/aspiration. Premier clubs should meet UEFA grade 2 at least with the goal being having the majority at grade 3 and hopefully a few at grade 4. The standard of football on the park as well as the standard of stadia go along way in being a reflection of any league.
There is already substantial stadia criteria in licensing
It isn't enforced though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
There is but as mentioned, it is not enforced enough. Personally I think grade 4 should be the aim for most Premier clubs. For a club like Sligo, if they plot a route to the Europa League group stages in the next few years, the goal off the park should be to have a stadium to match the level. These stadia aren't going to happen over night I know but it should be a target of the level to reach.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
Quote:
Originally Posted by legendz
Well then surely the issue is to enforce what we have rather than bring in more criteria?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Maroon
In some regards yes but is the current criteria enough? Clubs getting into Europe need to match UEFA requirements on stadia, which when you look through them are fair enough standards and nothing unattainable. Pat's had to play the round 3 qualifier at a different venue, Sligo had to push through a lot to stage their round 3 clash. If a lot of clubs can't meet category 3, it doesn't say much about the criteria there already or how it's been enforced. I haven't asked for new criteria anyways. All I've said is that in principle, the goal/aspiration should be for more clubs to meet the category 3 and 4 standards.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu