16 Team Premier Division / Winter Season from 2012/13 TODAY'S DAILY MAIL

**Jicked** · 08/10/2011, 7:28 AM

Originally Posted by born2bwild

Absolutely. The idea of staging a play off to decide the league title after the league proper is over is one of the most idiotic suggestions I have ever heard. How do notions such as this ever even get out of someone's head?

Its mad that people do it in any football. Just a bad rip-off of American sports, where it works as instead of one league, there's three or four mini-leagues that the winners of each progresses to the play-off. It makes absolutely no sense having a play-off for to decide one league

**born2bwild** · 08/10/2011, 7:41 AM

I think the play-offs idea for EL places is a decent one.

**Acornvilla** · 08/10/2011, 10:31 AM

Don't they do playoffs in the netherlands?

**legendz** · 09/10/2011, 8:46 AM

Play-offs seem to suit rugby. Taking the Pro 12 for example, clubs will have to play a good number of games without their internationals. There isn't a cup competition either so the Pro 12 grand final provides a cup final. It doesn't suit the GAA at all. They already have the championships. Many supporters want it to return being league only.
We have the FAI Cup final already. There's no need for play-offs for the league title. There's tradition as well. Traditionally the league winner is the team finishing on top. A few countries have gone for the play-offs but that's their decision, it's not really the European way.

**sadloserkid** · 11/10/2011, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by John83

Hurray! With this rumoured structural change (the second in less than a season), the league will be saved. Next year will see average attendances of 6000 in the top flight, with year on year gains of 12% thereafter. TV money, European success and global admiration will follow. All of our problems are solved.

6000? Maybe in UCD, the rest of the league will EASILY hit five figure attendances. I look forward to the day in the near future when the best players in England come here instead. Perhaps by 2015?

Originally Posted by Mr A

12 and 12 first with a 16/10 split later would make sense if there are 24 teams that want to be in the league.

Except for the fact that 16 and 10 is 26 obviously.

Originally Posted by legendz

I don't see the harm in play-offs for other positions though. Not in a premier of 12 but in a premier of 16 I would support a 4-way play-off for the last European spot.

Won't help the UEFA coefficient much I'd say.

**Mr A** · 11/10/2011, 10:56 AM

My point was that we wouldn't have 26 teams next year- 24 is more likely. So 12/12 next year and then 16/10 down the line.

**joeSoap** · 11/10/2011, 10:58 AM

Personally I would love to see a return to winter football. I know theres so many negatives for it as there are positives but my best memories of Limerick and the LOI were back in the late 70's and early 80's where we had 2pm kick offs on Sundays at home. It was also great listening to Philip Green comentating on whatever gane he was at back then too. Anyway, they're just my nostalgic memories...

**Dodge** · 11/10/2011, 11:07 AM

Originally Posted by A face

If it goes back to winter football then i think i'll throw the towel in at that stage.

After all your club has gone through in its 2/3 year history, the weather is the thing that'll make you pack it in? Interesting...

**Macy** · 11/10/2011, 1:41 PM

Originally Posted by Dodge

After all your club has gone through in its 2/3 year history, the weather is the thing that'll make you pack it in? Interesting...

He's just that SAD...

**John83** · 11/10/2011, 1:59 PM

Originally Posted by sadloserkid

6000? Maybe in UCD, the rest of the league will EASILY hit five figure attendances.

No doubt they will. I was factoring UCD's negative attendances into the league average.

**A face** · 11/10/2011, 2:26 PM

Originally Posted by joeSoap

Personally I would love to see a return to winter football. I know theres so many negatives for it as there are positives but my best memories of Limerick and the LOI were back in the late 70's and early 80's where we had 2pm kick offs on Sundays at home. It was also great listening to Philip Green comentating on whatever gane he was at back then too. Anyway, they're just my nostalgic memories...

No offence Joe (because its nothing personal) but they are just memories, and they are not worth a toss to any Club CEO trying to drag a club up off its knees. Nostalgia is priceless, and worthless all at the same time. Philip Green wont be commentating on games. Thats all yester-year and to be short, its not relevant in todays game.

Originally Posted by Dodge

After all your club has gone through in its 2/3 year history, the weather is the thing that'll make you pack it in? Interesting...

There is no issue with the club (truth be told, its really being run very well). The thing that would make me pack it in is the crisis after crisis, year after year, same old problems cropping up and i can contend with that if its moving in a positive direction, barely, even stood still, just as long as it not regression.

And even though i hate the idea of winter football, if it was a solution to all our problems then i'd suck it up and go with the flow but its not the solution and all the while we are being told "it definitely is", or "sure what harm can it do", and being reminded of the the "bumper crowds" at the Xmas season games (another 1000 at best in 2-3 games, not worth it) it is just more effort, resources, time and patience being poured into something that wont make a blind bit of difference and its less time, effort, resources not being used to improve the league ...... at best its just a waste and nothing should be done until they are sure of what they are doing.

The people who are suggesting it and vote it in should be made culpable, and made answer to the clubs who can quantify any losses being made as a result of the change. Obviously if it all goes swimmingly then they get the bragging rights etc. but the main thing is they are made culpable and possible be excluded from managing anything to do with the league ever again when it goes belly up. Let them take the gamble and see how they get on ...... cos we all know the twits coming up with this crock are the same twits who have the league where it is now ....... getting shot of them could be a blessing in disguise. Let them pick another sport like badminton or something and leave them clutch at straws and move deck chairs about and fanny about with team numbers and summer / winter football and fook that up year after year ad nauseum

**Dodge** · 11/10/2011, 2:43 PM

Originally Posted by A face

The people who are suggesting it and vote it in should be made culpable, and made answer to the clubs who can quantify any losses being made as a result of the change.

Just like those who suggested summer soccer are bing held accountable for the losses being suffered now?

**Macy** · 12/10/2011, 8:09 AM

Originally Posted by A face

The people who are suggesting it and vote it in should be made culpable, and made answer to the clubs who can quantify any losses being made as a result of the change. Obviously if it all goes swimmingly then they get the bragging rights etc. but the main thing is they are made culpable and possible be excluded from managing anything to do with the league ever again when it goes belly up. Let them take the gamble and see how they get on ...... cos we all know the twits coming up with this crock are the same twits who have the league where it is now ....... getting shot of them could be a blessing in disguise. Let them pick another sport like badminton or something and leave them clutch at straws and move deck chairs about and fanny about with team numbers and summer / winter football and fook that up year after year ad nauseum

It should be done on the basis of research, and there should be tangible benefits across the league given that can be measured a season or two down the line. I 100% agree - it should be done the complete opposite way to the way summer football was introduced. If summer football had been introduced properly, we wouldn't even be having the debate now, as we'd be simply be comparing actual results against the targets it was set to achieve...

imo the default should still be winter season, given that's the traditional season, and it should be up to the FAI/ clubs in favour of retaining it to prove it's been a success. However, if I was to pick one out of the two proposals on this thread, extending the top division to 16 is far more crucial for a sustainable league.

**frenchman** · 26/10/2011, 3:20 PM

I think we need to sort out a few problems first............form what I gather the amateur clubs would never enter the pyramid system because of politics/bitching etc...finance could also be a problem travelling expenses (which are pretty bad i hear!) but the financial aspect is just a simple decision for the FAI (why pay one person 350 000 a year and 22 international millionaires performance fees for 7 or 8 games per year).............. so
1 what do we want (if we are realistic) top tier all-professional division. (by professional I mean the person does this for a living ...no need to pay them loads of money..if you are able to train every day twice a day and earn 500 E a week you will be as good as a gelled-hair-open-shirt-ponce-charater-who-is-on-sky-with-fake-tan footballer!) for me this is more than possible
2 what teams could make up the numbers (21 plus ?????) presmueing we want two divisions of the same size 16 x2 would be tough (as we would need to find 9 new league clubs) or 14x2 (more realistic as we would need ''just'' 7 more)
answer to question two - based on recent 1st division teams and A championships - cobh, kilkenny, tralee, carlow, tullamore, castlebar, fanad, fingal

my personal favourite would be 2x14 divisions (which would be a bit short but would be long enough to be ''acceptable'' as a league and would make for very interesting games....very difficult to have dead-rubber games in a 26 game season)

top 3 qualify for Europe with 4th playing off against league cup winner

bottom two go down and 3rd from bottom face 3rd from top (1st division)
in the fist division , two up with one play off place......but at the bottom it gets complicated. to have relegation to the A championship( WHICH MUST BE KEP FOR CLUB AND PLAYER DEVELOPMENT) I think you need to make it very difficult to go up and down...you must have a sort of barrier to mark the line between ''professional and amateur ' i.e. not just simple 2 up 2 down all the way down the pyramid. if you just have one place at the bottom then the season would get quite boring near the end of the bottom half of the season. so i suggest a relegation play-off involving the bottom four (14th away to 11th and 13 away to 12) with the two losers playing to stay up. then the winner of the A championship (or the highest placed non reserve team would replace them.
the A championship would be divided into 3 groups on geographical basis (south/south west, dublin/east, north) Each premier team MUST provide an A team whcih will give a bassis of 14 teams to which you add a couple of teams who wish to entre the circle (IGNORE THE POLITICS AND EXPENSES FOR THE MOMENT) the three groups can be of differetn sizes and will play each other 2, 3 or 4 times (depending on the size of the group) to play about 15 gmaes a season, of that you take a top eight for quarter, semi and final , winner being promoted to the 1st........ or the highest non-reserve.
the bottom of each group goes into provinal leagues (to be revamped) and the bottom three play-of to avoid going down.Each division under that will have 10 (ish) teams on home and away as is the case already all then each regional committe will decide on small veriations depedning on travel/geographic problems etc
so........ premier 14 teams(home and away/ top 3 europe plus 4th playoff with league cup winner/ bottom 2down with one playoff spot for 12th)
first 14 teams (two up and third in playoff/ bottom four in relegation playoff with the final loser of both games going down)
A championship about 20 teams (in three groups with prem teams forced to have an A team/top eight from the 3 groups go into playoff with the eventual winner going up/bottom team of each group goes down with a relegation playoff between the 3 second last placed to decide who goes into ''senior provincial divisions.....
each provincial division of 10 teams has one winner who goes up into the A championship
the small amount of games is crucial to the irish game (max 30 per league season) because we have seen tiem and tiem again that the irish public don't ''follow'' a team , just go to the big games so this would help to avoid this problem.

**legendz** · 26/10/2011, 4:04 PM

The A Championship is finished. Not many clubs want to field a reserve side. If the league gets some stability, it's something that might be looked at again in a few years i.e. a number of reserve sides and a number of aspiring clubs competing in a league aka the A Championship.
Regards Premier and First Division numbers, 26 games in my view is too few. Can 16 clubs secure a Premier licence? Can enough new clubs secure a first division licence? The likeliest most realistic expansion you could get is a Premier of 12 and a First Division of 12.

There are many other issues that need to be looked at. Those lucky enough to be from regions within the League of Ireland are probably best placed to speak on it. All I'll say is with Shamrock Rovers having raised the bar in terms of Europe ambitions, the FAI might want to look at adopting UEFA stadia grades 1-4. It's clearly not something that can come in over night but at least in principle, it should be a goal/aspiration. Premier clubs should meet UEFA grade 2 at least with the goal being having the majority at grade 3 and hopefully a few at grade 4. The standard of football on the park as well as the standard of stadia go along way in being a reflection of any league.

**Dodge** · 26/10/2011, 4:27 PM

There is already substantial stadia criteria in licensing

**Mr Maroon** · 27/10/2011, 8:07 AM

Originally Posted by Dodge

There is already substantial stadia criteria in licensing

It isn't enforced though.

**legendz** · 27/10/2011, 8:46 AM

Originally Posted by Dodge

There is already substantial stadia criteria in licensing

There is but as mentioned, it is not enforced enough. Personally I think grade 4 should be the aim for most Premier clubs. For a club like Sligo, if they plot a route to the Europa League group stages in the next few years, the goal off the park should be to have a stadium to match the level. These stadia aren't going to happen over night I know but it should be a target of the level to reach.

**pineapple stu** · 27/10/2011, 8:48 AM

Originally Posted by legendz

There is but as mentioned, it is not enforced enough.

Originally Posted by Mr Maroon

It isn't enforced though.

Well then surely the issue is to enforce what we have rather than bring in more criteria?

**legendz** · 27/10/2011, 9:10 AM

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Well then surely the issue is to enforce what we have rather than bring in more criteria?

In some regards yes but is the current criteria enough? Clubs getting into Europe need to match UEFA requirements on stadia, which when you look through them are fair enough standards and nothing unattainable. Pat's had to play the round 3 qualifier at a different venue, Sligo had to push through a lot to stage their round 3 clash. If a lot of clubs can't meet category 3, it doesn't say much about the criteria there already or how it's been enforced. I haven't asked for new criteria anyways. All I've said is that in principle, the goal/aspiration should be for more clubs to meet the category 3 and 4 standards.