16 Team Premier Division / Winter Season from 2012/13 TODAY'S DAILY MAIL

**Lim till i die** · 04/10/2011, 2:50 PM

Originally Posted by geezer

thats sensible & fair, lets hope lims continue to go in the right direction, the league need Limerick

Very good.

For the record, the league probably needs a Galway team playing under a Galway moniker aswell.

Mervue seem to be a pretty good setup but I don't think they'll ever be bigger than a Monaghan size because it's a bit parochial.

**S.E.P.1990** · 04/10/2011, 3:16 PM

Originally Posted by Mr Maroon

Dates confirmed by the FAI this morning :

Away leg vs third placed First Division team : Tuesday 1st November

Home leg vs third placed First Division team : Friday 4th November

In the event of the third placed team qualifying for the FAI Cup Final, the second leg will be held on Wednesday 9th November.

Thanks for this. I was under the impression it was a one-off game at the home of the Premier league team. Hopefully it wont impact on Shels!

**legendz** · 04/10/2011, 3:51 PM

Originally Posted by adamd164

So that puts the 16-team league talk to bed you would assume. 3 up, 1 down.

You would assume but you'd never know. I was surprised to hear them talking about it in Waterford but maybe it's wishful thinking down there. We won't know how many of Cobh, Carlow, Tralee and Fanad are invited until December. Initially it was believed to be one but there is scope for 3 to be invited if the FAI decide to opt for a 12 team FD below the planned 12 team premier.

**Mr A** · 04/10/2011, 3:55 PM

12 and 12 first with a 16/10 split later would make sense if there are 24 teams that want to be in the league.

**geezer** · 04/10/2011, 4:24 PM

Originally Posted by Lim till i die

Very good.

For the record, the league probably needs a Galway team playing under a Galway moniker aswell.

Mervue seem to be a pretty good setup but I don't think they'll ever be bigger than a Monaghan size because it's a bit parochial.

Is a club I have massive respect for, and support because im from there. The big competition they have is not GUFC or Salthill its St James GAA , a lot of the young lads in the eastern side of the corrib are training with St James and enjoying it more,
also the GAA season gets longer and longer every year and will cut into membership numbers at clubs like Mervue and the Rugby will cut into Devons numbers. The biggest worry for me is the amount of lads playing for Mervue U19 not from that catchment area this cant be good for local support in the long term and the quality of the brought in players is not as great as people were saying at the start of the u19 season. Mervue Utd was always about spirit and a disciplined yet tough soccer culture, if that gets too diluted they will have the same probs GUFC have suffered over the years

**Spudulika** · 04/10/2011, 5:02 PM

Mr A has it right, a 12/12 pair of leagues. We'll always talk about a pyramid, it'll never come into play so long as football is so divided and an us and them attitude remains. Play offs are good for the game, for clubs and supporters. While our Premier isn't quite at teh sky league standard and it's subsidiary leagues, look at the 2nd division play off series to see how much it can mean. A play off for the title, it's different for most people, but it works in the GAA - you can win your division and still not be champion. I can just picture a Dundalk-UCD play-off final for a spot in the Champions league in 2013 :-)

**A face** · 04/10/2011, 5:35 PM

If it goes back to winter football then i think i'll throw the towel in at that stage.

**gormacha** · 04/10/2011, 5:49 PM

Originally Posted by Spudulika

but it works in the GAA

Er, no it doesn't.

It only "works" insofar as no-one takes the National Leagues seriously. Even hardcore GAA fans don't take the League seriously. In fact, the counties don't even take it seriously, using it as a glorified training session. That's why the GAA can fanny about with the format, because ultimately no-one cares.

**legendz** · 04/10/2011, 6:09 PM

Originally Posted by gormacha

Er, no it doesn't.

It only "works" insofar as no-one takes the National Leagues seriously. Even hardcore GAA fans don't take the League seriously. In fact, the counties don't even take it seriously, using it as a glorified training session. That's why the GAA can fanny about with the format, because ultimately no-one cares.

It's still important to do well in the league but yeah it is just the league. The GAA themselves don't do the league any favours with the constant restructuring of it. They could also use as seedings when it comes to championship qualifiers but that for a different section and sport!
I enjoy the league games though, it's good to see how counties are progressing. Some people dismiss it but playing in the highest division is an advantage when it comes to championship.

**legendz** · 04/10/2011, 6:30 PM

Originally Posted by Spudulika

Mr A has it right, a 12/12 pair of leagues. We'll always talk about a pyramid, it'll never come into play so long as football is so divided and an us and them attitude remains. Play offs are good for the game, for clubs and supporters. While our Premier isn't quite at teh sky league standard and it's subsidiary leagues, look at the 2nd division play off series to see how much it can mean. A play off for the title, it's different for most people, but it works in the GAA - you can win your division and still not be champion. I can just picture a Dundalk-UCD play-off final for a spot in the Champions league in 2013 :-)

If 12 & 12 was to come in, the promotion/relegation play-off should be tweaked back to a system of around '02 and '03. FD winner automatically promoted as always with 12th premier relegated. 11th premier should join 2nd, 3rd and 4th from the first division in a four way promotion/relegation play-off. I thought it was a good sytem the two seasons it was used. A reward for finishing in the top 6 of either division could be the extra home game in the following year.

**Charlie Darwin** · 05/10/2011, 3:02 AM

Playoffs could be a good idea or they could be bad. They'll always be unpopular among supporters of the team that came first in the table, but even so you can rig it in their favour with home advantage. Would anybody be that against, say, Pat's winning a play-off this season having come 4th?

Second, having 16 teams could actually be good for the league, but only if there was no relegation. I know UCD have done amazing work under Russell with the threat of relegation, but has it done anything for Galway and Drogs this season? Arguably Drogs are only able to play with a bit more freedom now because Galway have been so embarrassingly awful. My only concern with that would be that when clubs go bust we'd have nowhere to relegate them to.

**Spudulika** · 05/10/2011, 4:07 AM

Originally Posted by gormacha

Er, no it doesn't.

It only "works" insofar as no-one takes the National Leagues seriously. Even hardcore GAA fans don't take the League seriously. In fact, the counties don't even take it seriously, using it as a glorified training session. That's why the GAA can fanny about with the format, because ultimately no-one cares.

Yes it does. Any county boss worth his salt uses the Leagues as a build up for the Championship. They trial different rules in the League or pre-season Cups and keep some and drop others. Check out counties that take the league seriously and their respective Championship results and you'll see the slight fault. Just on football alone there is a guide from who played in the top division finals the last 3 years. And as for hurling, do you seriosuly think Kilkenny use the League as a glorified training session?

Play offs, if run rightly, can be very good for the LOI, it all depends on the clubs being realistic and the FAI getting good deals in place.

**osarusan** · 05/10/2011, 4:12 AM

Originally Posted by Spudulika

Osarusan, I won't try to change your mind, as we're only all discussing it. The purpose of having play-offs - in the format I mentioned, is to keep the season alive until the end. To rule out meaningless games a play-off where (in a 12 team league for example) having a playoff for the title could work to help this. Top 8 play off and the winner takes all. But probably top 8 is too much, top 4. But to rule out "unreal" football supporters is a bit of a disservice, if Limerick push on as you hope they will, there wil be plenty around Markets Field - will you turn them away and only allow those who braved the elements when the club was on its knees? We have to broaden the appeal of the LOI, though there isn't a quick fix anywhere.

When I say 'real fans', I mean people who are not attracted to a simple league format. If the only way they'll be attracted to LOI is with a title playoff, they can stay away. I don't really think the media would go crazy over it either - there would be little interest until the playoffs actually started.

No, of course I won't be turning fans away who are drawn by Limerick's (hopeful) future success. Success brings fans and they'll all be welcome. I just hope that success is in a league system.

I still think there would be plenty of meaningless games with your playoff idea. If the number of teams getting into the playoff is reduced, it means more meaningless games for the teams nowhere near the playoffs, and if the number of teams in the playoffs is increased, it means more meaningless games for the teams whose participation in the playoffs is established 4 or 6 weeks before the end of the regular season. If you look at the table as it is right now, a 4-team playoff system would mean that Bohs would have more of an interest than they probably do now, but the cracking title run-in would be done away with.

Mostly though, I'm against it because it defeats the purpose of having a league in the first place. There's no justification in terms of footballing ability for having a 30 game league to determine the best team in the country in terms of consistency, and then having them in a playoff against teams they've proven themselves better than. It turns the league into a cup, which isn't the purpose of a league.

**gormacha** · 05/10/2011, 8:36 AM

Originally Posted by Spudulika

Yes it does. Any county boss worth his salt uses the Leagues as a build up for the Championship. They trial different rules in the League or pre-season Cups and keep some and drop others. Check out counties that take the league seriously and their respective Championship results and you'll see the slight fault. Just on football alone there is a guide from who played in the top division finals the last 3 years. And as for hurling, do you seriosuly think Kilkenny use the League as a glorified training session?

Your argument simply doesn't hold water. You correctly point out that county bosses "use the League as a build up to the championship", yet deny its effectively regarded as match-hardening training? Kilkenny is a great example, but not for the reasons you point out. They take it seriously insofar as they can blood players, but do they care if they win it? Absolutely not.

As you point out, they trial all sorts of changes in the Leagues that they would never countenance doing in the Championship. All of this conclusively proves that the Leagues are not taken seriously for their own sake - they are secondary, so the use of playoffs offers more games and a bit of excitement to a competition that no-one really cares if they win or not. They might get a bit excited about it if they find themselves in the final, but they're more concerned about what it tells them about their players for the Championship.

This is not to say that there isn't a coincidence of winners of the league going on to win All-Irelands - in hurling that's happened 5 times in the last 11 years - but prior to that, not once in the previous 12 years did it happen. In fact, of the 24 finalists during that period, only one won an All-Ireland.

Anyway, enough of hurling. My point is that playoffs to win a football league are a cheap gimmick that will not draw in anybody who doesn't already watch LOI, and will annoy the majority of those that already do.

**pineapple stu** · 05/10/2011, 8:44 AM

Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

I know UCD have done amazing work under Russell with the threat of relegation

I don't know if we really had the threat of relegation over us this season. By the end of April, we had more points than Galway have now, and we could see they were muck. This season for us was always recouping our losses from last year and building towards next. I think we're a club who generally have a more long-term focus than other clubs (which is why we never win anything in the short-term...), and that's what you're seeing with our recent upturn. For us, this has been one long 2012 pre-season really.

As you say, a one-team division would kind of making licencing redundant though (not that it's mad effective now of course)

**gormacha** · 05/10/2011, 8:48 AM

Originally Posted by osarusan

Mostly though, I'm against it because it defeats the purpose of having a league in the first place. There's no justification in terms of footballing ability for having a 30 game league to determine the best team in the country in terms of consistency, and then having them in a playoff against teams they've proven themselves better than. It turns the league into a cup, which isn't the purpose of a league.

Well said. That's what I wanted to say, but didn't say it as eloquently as that.

**Macy** · 05/10/2011, 8:58 AM

Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

Second, having 16 teams could actually be good for the league, but only if there was no relegation. I know UCD have done amazing work under Russell with the threat of relegation, but has it done anything for Galway and Drogs this season? Arguably Drogs are only able to play with a bit more freedom now because Galway have been so embarrassingly awful. My only concern with that would be that when clubs go bust we'd have nowhere to relegate them to.

There has to be relegation. Galway clearly shouldn't be in the premier this season, but without a lower division and relegation, you could concievably have that farce extended by another two or three teams who give up for a year to save cash.

On the wider thread...
I don't think the comparison with the GAA stands to be honest. The league and championship are totally seperate competitions. I'm not sure I buy the theory that the current fans won't go to league games because of a play off at the end, so it'd essentially be about the extra crowds and coverage of playoffs, imo. A winning team in the league would still be a winning team, and that's still the main driver of crowds.

A face - The only recent mention of Winter football has been you!

**legendz** · 05/10/2011, 6:55 PM

Originally Posted by osarusan

Mostly though, I'm against it because it defeats the purpose of having a league in the first place. There's no justification in terms of footballing ability for having a 30 game league to determine the best team in the country in terms of consistency, and then having them in a playoff against teams they've proven themselves better than. It turns the league into a cup, which isn't the purpose of a league.

I'm all against using a play-off. The league champion is the league champion. Other sports have more to gain like the GAA leagues and other sports like the pro 12. It's traditional in European football that the top team wins the league and that is it.
I don't see the harm in play-offs for other positions though. Not in a premier of 12 but in a premier of 16 I would support a 4-way play-off for the last European spot. The prize of finishing on top will be the league title and CL as normal. Second place will be guaranteed EL. The drawback of finishing in the next 4 places will be missing out on Europe but an opportunity through play-offs. The higher up a team finishes in the league of the 4, the more favourable draw and venue, i.e. being at home, the team will have.
In the first division then, the reward for winning the title should be the only automatic promotion spot. After that either have a direct play-off between second bottom premier and second top FD or include third and fourth of the FD as well. Play-offs like that gives each position something different to play for or avoid. Last placed premier: relegation, second last premier: chance to survive but not safe, 2nd FD: home tie v 3rd place, 3rd place FD: avoid away trip to premier team and 4th place FD: will just have gotten into the play-off, having the toughest tie and path but still a possibility of promotion. In a play-off like that, slightly tweaking the '02-'03 version, the winner of 2nd v 3rd should get the advanage of home tie in the second leg or the one off game.

**bullit** · 08/10/2011, 2:26 AM

^^^^ Joke .
Spliting the leauge @ the half-way or 3/4 point would kill it.
No doubt that you have good intentions but you have no financial nouance. From a Dundalk point of view(and this is only my point of view) a split would ruin the club if we were on the wrong side of it.
Leauges are decided by a long of run matches that are played over a certain time with champions and relegation decided therein,spliting a leauge,were goal diffrence could be a deciding factor as to who stays in the top 6 or not is damn crazy.
Tralee must have money behind behind them thats all i can say !!

**born2bwild** · 08/10/2011, 7:23 AM

Originally Posted by gormacha

Anyway, enough of hurling. My point is that playoffs to win a football league are a cheap gimmick that will not draw in anybody who doesn't already watch LOI, and will annoy the majority of those that already do.

Absolutely. The idea of staging a play off to decide the league title after the league proper is over is one of the most idiotic suggestions I have ever heard. How do notions such as this ever even get out of someone's head?