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With all respect, he's given what he approximates as the percentages of people who would be opposed to or in favour of a merger. You've not given any figures at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
And I'd say the onus is on you to try and show that there are a significant number of fans who are in favour of the merger, rather than on him showing the number in favour of the status quo.
I certainly don't speak for the whole population of Northern Ireland.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
I do speak, with confidence, on the feelings of the vast majority of Northern Ireland fans on the matter.
You are right - we are very proud of our team (as I'm sure you are of yours).
That's as maybe. But when the end comes, it'll be down to the machinations of their newly 'beloved' FIFA, not any polls done by me or him. Personally I'd love to see a poll in the Six counties or across the whole island, but doubtless the content would be seen as too frivolous by many. Perhaps rightly so.
Anyway, none of the other advocates of a UI team have proposed a poll. They've relied on the logic of the many other examples, a commodity not very prevalent in certain quarters. As opposed to paranoia.
You can have all the Polls you like - you don't seem to be able to grasp that any amount of Polls wont put a Company (the IFA) out of business.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
To wish to hold onto something one cherishes, and see it progress, is not paranoia.
Come on, you- and those who agree with you on this theme/ thread- aren't really putting anything new into the discussion. You're just repeating the same thing over and over again, which is why NB and I alone have replied to it by reflex 150 times on the thread. As Gerry Adams might say, there's an impasse in dialog ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Predator
Anyway, off the top of my head here's a ridiculous suggestion prompted by Ardee Bhoy and others on another thread. Your fans are obviously still sore about losing an unlucky goal to France, to the extent that some are even wondering aloud about boycotting future FIFA/ UEFA competitions. As an alternative- and bearing in mind you couldn't score a single goal in 180 minutes against the Black Mountain- why not set up a alternative competition where you can rack up wins against Cave Hill, Slieve Donard and the Glenshane Pass? Trebles all round!
You've got what you want in practice; you don't need to argue for some extra principle which just winds up your neighbors. Stop stirring.Quote:
As I've said, I acknowledge that there is an effective united Ireland team, but it's not the same as having one international football entity, as you obviously know
I was being semi-serious. We already know what Northern Ireland fans think of the Northern Ireland football team think; 100% support it, self-evidently by definition. If you want to test what all others (RoI fans, people not bothered by football, that sort of thing) think, you need to stand for election, or get an existing party to do it for you. You can't just hide behind 'ah, but if we just assume what the silent majority thinks'.Quote:
Seriously though, I still think it's an issue which should see the consultation of the population of Northern Ireland (as well as the Republic) as they are all prospective fans
There are no positives for any NI fan in there not being a NI fan after you've abolished it. I mean, d'uh.Quote:
but for those NI fans (including prospective NI fans) who are in favour, there are positives
I support the Ireland cricket team because there isn't and hasn't been a NI side. Although I've lived in the Republic of Ireland (as well as Germany and England by choice as an adult), I've no affinity to any of their international football teams. Can't think where you got that idea from.Quote:
Not Brazil says he would find it difficult to cheer on a united Ireland team as passionately, since he feels little to no affinity to the Republic of Ireland. You don't have that problem though
It has about as much credence as the original Creedence (Clearwater Revival, I'm a long-time fan) getting together again. Alas they haven't spoken civilly since about 1983 ;)Quote:
it could be avoided altogether if it wasn't given any credence whatsoever, which is what you and NB have been doing
I suppose if you can blithely ignore 150 posts on this thread alone telling you we're not interested, your perceived "lack of input" is hardly a surprise.Quote:
Then again, maybe it will happen eventually and the lack of input from NI fans would encourage the 'takeover' attitude
Let me put it slightly differently. Any possible availability of players from outside the Republic of Ireland doesn't necessarily have a bearing on a takeover of the IFA. Because, obviously, you already have plenty of such players, like.Quote:
Originally Posted by boovidge
I was being sarcastic. In the good/bad years, given the fickleness of modern football fans (Of all shades!) there must be more fans of Ireland in the North's population than of the North, given there's a 3-way or more split....Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
Though I'd accept the North's support would have grown given their improvement in recent years but any relative success, like with Ireland, is generally cyclical.
It'll be FIFA who'll vote you out of existence. And it certainly sounds like paranoia, if not ostrich-like! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
People who don't support Northern Ireland are not really my concern - yes, there are a sizeable number of people from Northern Ireland who support the Republic Of Ireland...that's entirely up to them. I doubt they are any more or less passionate about suppporting their team than Northern Ireland fans are ours.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
All teams have fluctuations in support - at least in terms of those wanting to go to matches. That's the same the world over.
Of course I realise many football fans in NI support the Republic, and a smaller number England. I'd be very surprised if yours was the largest group. Put simply, there are more unionists than nationalists; you can't assume that none of the nationalists will support NI, England, or a combination of two or more; you aren't (as Osarusan says above) actually offering any evidence at all, are you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ardee Bhoy
In the unlikely event of FIFA voting out any Irish team, I'd be more worried if I supported the one which has recently been so aggressively critical of FIFA (not to mention exposing itself to Worldwide ridicule in the process).Quote:
It'll be FIFA who'll vote you out of existence. And it certainly sounds like paranoia, if not ostrich-like
I don't see how they will.:confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Perhaps just wishful (and hostile) thinking on your part?
There is nothing either paranoid or "ostrich-like" about not wanting to see our team disappear.
You do understand the concept of being a "supporter", do you?:confused:
To NB;Of course I understand the concept of support, but that's not what the likes of Michael Walker is suggesting. Maybe you need to re-read....Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
As for FIFA, for all their faults, corruption and crookedness(And that's an understatement!);they're more likely to vote out of existence teams not representing legitimate sovereign states, instead of representing archaic colonial entities.
I've read Walker's piece - same old...Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
I do not believe for one minute that FIFA will vote the four "home" Associations out of existance - if it were to come to pass, I would not be a passionate supporter of an All UK team - I doubt many (outside of possibly England fans) would.
Don't raise your hopes on that one!
And the evidence that they're planning this, or that they've done it- even once- in the past?Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
It's part of Jack Warner's, er, agenda. And has some sympathy in other of the more obscure parts of FIFA's constituency.
Good luck to Jack with that.:DQuote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Fine, upstanding, FIFA representative that he is.:D
AB pinning his hopes on the disappearance of the Northern Ireland team, to be gobbled up in an All UK team, on the evidence of a discredited Jack Warner's wishes....absolutely brilliant.:D
It isn't. If Jack Warner wants anything from the Irish FA at all, it's our vote if he runs for FIFA el Presidente. All he has to do is offer Kennedy and his family (or John Delaney and his) a nice free holiday in some Caribbean resort or other. There are no plans and no constituency for forcing any UEFA member countries out of the organisation, only some pressure to stop others getting in. For example, big centralised countries like Spain or Russia aren't too keen on Euskal or Chechnya, say, breaking away to organise their own teams.
Where are these obscure parts of FIFA's constituency, other than in your imagination?
PS to NB- I wasn't joking about Jack being a posible future presidente. He may have been discredited by the English media (until he changed his mind and said he'd vote for England 2018 after all), and more importantly the courts in his own country, but that's no bar to senior office in FIFA.
It is. As the 4 home 'nations' are seen as holding too much proportionate power.
But you people love to deny the facts as part of the paranoid agenda.
Though I would agree Warner/FIFA are discredited, though 'law of averages' I suppose that they'll eventually do something 'right'.
Should Jack succeed in reaching the top, he'll find he's not in charge of a Dictatorship.;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
There is a certain validity in the arguement that the four Home Associations carry to much power - that is a whole different arguement as to whether they should be denied the right to exist autonomously.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Would an All UK team compete more effectively on the world stage? Using your logic, probably.
Why do you think the overwhelming majority of supporters of the four Home Association's International representative teams are steadfastly oppossed to such a move?
What is this "paranoid agenda" of which you speak?:confused:
As I mentioned above, NI like the other three has a seat on the International Board. It's just a committee. If anyone is that bothered- you need to show some independent evidence- all they need do is argue for the committee to be entirely elected without ex-officio members. It's just not an issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
What kind of power are you referring to?Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
They occupy 1/2 the seats on the committee to rule on the laws of the game as it is played on the pitch. Is that a bone of contention for other members of FIFA?
I think some posters on this forum need to respect the right of Northern Ireland fans to retain and support their own team. If the majority of Northern Ireland fans (note that there is a distinction between Northern Ireland fans and Northern Ireland citizens) would prefer to retain their own team rather than opt for an All-Ireland team, that is their right to do so.
Personally, I look forward to the day when we do have an All-Ireland team. Looking at the recent and current demographic divide in the North, that day is perhaps 20 - 25 years away. It is inevitable that we will have a united Ireland within that timeframe. When that day arrives, I certainly won't feel guilty that the All-Ireland team plays its games in Dublin with Amhran na bhFiann played and tricolours hanging within the stadium, as that will be the preference of the majority of the population within the 32 counties. Afterall, Northern Ireland fans have hardly felt guilty about the playing of God Save the Queen and the hanging of Union Jacks at their games, despite being opposed by a proportion of their population.
Spot on with the first bit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronan85
You have an All Ireland team currently - you do play your games in Dublin, with Amhran na bhFiann. There are no objections whatsoever to that.
When the "inevitable" happens in 20-25 years (as you forecast), will you be upholding the right of any player born in Northern Ireland to elect to play for any one of the the other "British" Associations, on account of them having British Citizenship?
GR (Sorry to confuse you with your comrade in arms EG) what I find difficult to understand about your analysis is your complete indifference to the fact that the NI football team occupies an entirely unique position in international football. I cannot think of any other international team where a very sizeable proportion of the population of the state that it purports to represent (unless you follow the novel position of Not Brazil that the team merely represents the IFA) dont actually support it. You seem to regard this as a perfectly reasonable and acceptable state of affairs, and all that really matters is that true NI supporters should have the right to continue supporting their preferred team. Well I might possibly be persuaded to accept this uniquely Irish accomodation, but things of course are not quite so hunky dory. The two Irish teams are not divided along lines of national jurisdiction, but along predominantly religious lines.(Please dont split hairs about indivual players etc. I am referring to the overwhelming split in the support base for both teams inside NI) The NI team is something that divides rather than unites communities in the North and the shirts of both teams have become emblems of tribal / political affinity and identity. Your inability / unwillingness to recognise this dimension of the issue rather undermines the reasonableness of your arguments and actually suggests that you are happy for international football in Ireland to be disfigured by sectarian intolerance.
I completely understand why Unionist NI supporters feel threatened and discomforted by the idea of an FAI / IFA merger and would even see this "takeover" as a worrying harbinger of things to come. Maybe the political implications of the proposition are just too sensitive and complicated to resolve, But at least be honest and stop pretending that you are only arguing for the right to support "your" team. This is a facile and disingenuous argument that fails to convince anyone.
Jeees... dont know about that one. Very optimistic time scale I feel.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronan85
I dont think it will simply be a question of straight forward religious/ethnic demographics...
Probably a debate for a different forum
That's exactly who it represents.Quote:
Originally Posted by third policeman
Thanks. Not much to ask.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronan85
Just like those in every other country- not everyone supports the country they live in, not everyone is interested in football.Quote:
note that there is a distinction between Northern Ireland fans and Northern Ireland citizens
You've got it already, read the thread.Quote:
Personally, I look forward to the day when we do have an All-Ireland team
You're either looking at the wrong statistics, or misinterpreting them. In the last NI Assembly election in 2007 (past electoral behavior being the best, if hardly a 100% reliable indicator of future voting intention), nationalist parties got 42% of the vote. That's a long way behind the 58% who vote non-nationalist. You'd have to rely on some combination ofQuote:
Looking at the recent and current demographic divide in the North, that day is perhaps 20 - 25 years away
a) up to 8% of the voters changing to become nationalists later in life
b) lots of potential nationalist voters suddenly deciding to vote after previously staying at home (such people do exist, but on the unionist side as well, which would counter the effect)
c) nationalist voters having more children (by and large they haven't for some time now), and then those children becoming nationalist voters in 25 years time. Being registered as Catholics at birth/ communion (the oft-quoted I think you're referring) isn't the same thing.
It isn't. Commentators in the RoI and more so among nationalists in NI have been claiming this inevitability for decades- but you're no closer to it now than in 1925, 1939 or 1972, just to pick three examples. There's no guarantee that the man on Bray Esplanade will vote for it (as opposed to daydreaming when there's no real chance of it happening).Quote:
It is inevitable that we will have a united Ireland within that timeframe
You already do that for your team, even though many of your team come from outside the 32 counties. You don't need to feel guilty either now or notionally in the future.Quote:
When that day arrives, I certainly won't feel guilty that the All-Ireland team plays its games in Dublin with Amhran na bhFiann played and tricolours hanging within the stadium, as that will be the preference of the majority of the population within the 32 counties
True, you can overdo the guilt trip. Incidentally there are far fewer UJs at NI games nowadays, and many like me would prefer a distinct anthem that we don't share with England, Britain as a whole and Liechtenstein. And which would, I hope, be suffiiciently stirring (or even bland) to appeal to all existing and potential fans.Quote:
Afterall, Northern Ireland fans have hardly felt guilty about the playing of God Save the Queen and the hanging of Union Jacks at their games, despite being opposed by a proportion of their population
Not sure about the Republic's fanbase, but the vast majority of Northern Ireland fans I know aren't regular worshipers - in fact, a lot of them are atheists.Quote:
Originally Posted by third policeman
If I want to worship my maker, I go to Church - not a football match.
It is fair to say that the majority of Northern Ireland fans are "Unionist" in outlook - no surprise there really, given that Nationalists would prefer there to be no such thing as Northern Ireland.
I would guess the whole of the Republic Of Ireland fanbase is nationalistic in outlook - again, no big surprise.
What players are catholic at the moment in the Northern team ? Mc Ginn, Mc Court, Baird , Clingan ...any others guys?? Just outa interest
I must admit I love seeing them do well and i even have a 1982 jersey i bought in Lisburn
Seems thje FAI are pretty happy with it too - compounding it by targeting and selecting players from one side of the community in Northern Ireland to bolster their squads.Quote:
Originally Posted by third policeman
However the right of choice was established in the eligibility debate - do the same rules apply for us, or is the hypocricy just hanging out of you?
Why is it unreasonable, or unnatural, for someone proudly born in Northern Ireland to want to play for Northern Ireland or support Northern Ireland?:confused:
For those who oppose the place called Northern Ireland, they can elect to play for the FAI team, and support it's representative sides.
Beyond that, what we are witnessing in this discussion is outright hostility to the right of the IFA to remain autonomous, in line with the wishes of the vast majority of it's International representative teams' supporters.
That is wholly unacceptable, and unreasonable.
Who cares where they say their prayers, or if they even bother?:confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by bwagner
By merging the FAI and IFA and having one team, you'd be creating another international team where a sizeable proportion of the population purportedly represented by the team don't actually support it.Quote:
Originally Posted by third policeman
Just a question Not Brazil
It interests me how catholic irish paople couls play under those banners and songs
Because they are professional footballers who aren't hung up on theological interpretations perhaps?Quote:
Originally Posted by bwagner
No problem. Hopefully the big man from Fermanagh will revisit the thread soon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Third Policeman
Come again? I don't think, and have never suggested nor implied here or anywhere else, indifference to demographics and their relation to football support in Northern Ireland. But as Raymond Kennedy would say, we are where we are.Quote:
what I find difficult to understand about your analysis is your complete indifference to the fact that the NI football team occupies an entirely unique position in international football
I can. Was talking to an English friend of mine the other day, who lives in Transylvania with his Romanian wife and their kids. 90% of people in their town speak Hungarian at home, school and work, and many support Hungarian sports teams. This example is hardly unique in Europe, let alone anywhere else. There are many more Hungarian speakers in Romania than nationalist voters in Northern Ireland, btw.Quote:
I cannot think of any other international team where a very sizeable proportion of the population of the state that it purports to represent...dont actually support it
I wouldn't- haven't- put it in exactly the same terms, and I'm not really interested in the corporate status of the IFA. Did NB mean the team "merely" represented the IFA, ie just a few people in Windsor rAvenue ather than thousands of fans?Quote:
unless you follow the novel position of Not Brazil that the team merely represents the IFA
Aye, pretty much. And why not? Doesn't harm the horses, similar precedents in other countries. Although even if there weren't such precedents, I'd still support NI, like.Quote:
You seem to regard this as a perfectly reasonable and acceptable state of affairs
Got it in one, good man.Quote:
and all that really matters is that true NI supporters should have the right to continue supporting their preferred team
I won't- I don't. I don't care how the players and fans vote, or worship, or antything else off-field, as long as they play for and support the shirt.Quote:
Please dont split hairs about indivual players etc.
Don't be so melodramatic. There's a political divide in NI mainly because of the way the border was drawn in the 1920s, wider political issues, population drift since and so on. That divide would exist if international football and both the Irish teams disappeared up Blatter's hole next Tuesday.Quote:
The NI team is something that divides rather than unites communities in the North and the shirts of both teams have become emblems of tribal / political affinity and identity
I have recognised it, merely disagreeing with the conclusions you've drawn from it.Quote:
Your inability / unwillingness to recognise this dimension of the issue
Thanks (for the reasonableness bit), but I haven't undermined anything by not doing what you're accusing me of. Sectarian intolerance (which I abhor) isn't umbilically linked to football, as I say above.Quote:
rather undermines the reasonableness of your arguments and actually suggests that you are happy for international football in Ireland to be disfigured by sectarian intolerance
Good man, we're agreed after all.Quote:
I completely understand why Unionist NI supporters feel threatened and discomforted by the idea of an FAI / IFA merger and would even see this "takeover" as a worrying harbinger of things to come
I've said nothing dishonest on this thread or the issue generally- can you back that up, if not withdraw it please?Quote:
But at least be honest and stop pretending that you are only arguing for the right to support "your" team
It's a simple argument (which doesn't mean quite the same as facile, you know) and not at all disingenuous.Quote:
This is a facile and disingenuous argument that fails to convince anyone
Unlike :rolleyes: the current situation....Quote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
And who do they represent?Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
Yes, unlike the current situation where everybody has a national team which they can feel is representative of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
The merger would undoubtedly leave a sizeable number of NI citizens without any team which they feel represents them. You, apparently, have no problem with that.
It's members.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
It's not as if those in Northern Ireland who don't support Northern Ireland (largely on account of their political opinions) don't have a team they identify with - it's called the Republic Of Ireland, and it is a ,de facto, All Ireland team.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy