American Politics

[Nesta99]

You should also note that Pearse and other Lefties of his time, had no knowledge at that time of how many People, Communists were going to kill.

Doesnt that apply to all politcal ideologies? How many people have been killed by capitalism, wars fought in the name of democracy, democratically elected leftist governments collapsed by the 'leaders of the free world', the same propping up regimes guilty of mass murder, the Pinochets of the world. The afore mentioned elected Israeli government's current conduct. If we go further back in history.....
You might call this whatboutery, Id call it perspective, balance. My uncle would say the broader the statement the narowwer the mind - seeping statements eg the left are evil (communists/ socialists), as you hear said in US politics, or all Republicans are fascist which I dont agree with either as I feel that MAGA is different from regular GOP, their issue being that they are saying too little to challange over reach by the MAGA admin. For a party that advocates small government.

Did Pearse know people would be killed by taking up arms in the centre of Dublin, of course he did, did he know how many? No, did he care, for the cause probably not. Sounds like the mindset of a communist by your reckoning. We should probably diffrenciate between communism and stalinism too.

Again to get back on thread though, do you see the left in US politics as communist?

[Razors left peg]

Is this a self confession from you ?

Anyway, I assume a moderator would have a word with this poster for the personal attacks !

Obviously, this poster resorts to personal attacks when he has lost the arguments !

Hopefully he just keeps it to personal attacks on the internet !

I was just making a general point, cant be helped if you assume I was talking about anyone specifically

[seanfhear]

I was just making a general point, cant be helped if you assume I was talking about anyone specifically

Obviously, I though you were self - confessing !

[seanfhear]

Doesnt that apply to all politcal ideologies? How many people have been killed by capitalism, wars fought in the name of democracy, democratically elected leftist governments collapsed by the 'leaders of the free world', the same propping up regimes guilty of mass murder, the Pinochets of the world. The afore mentioned elected Israeli government's current conduct. If we go further back in history.....
You might call this whatboutery, Id call it perspective, balance. My uncle would say the broader the statement the narowwer the mind - seeping statements eg the left are evil (communists/ socialists), as you hear said in US politics, or all Republicans are fascist which I dont agree with either as I feel that MAGA is different from regular GOP, their issue being that they are saying too little to challange over reach by the MAGA admin. For a party that advocates small government.

Did Pearse know people would be killed by taking up arms in the centre of Dublin, of course he did, did he know how many? No, did he care, for the cause probably not. Sounds like the mindset of a communist by your reckoning. We should probably diffrenciate between communism and stalinism too.

Again to get back on thread though, do you see the left in US politics as communist?

Some are certainly wanna-be Communists.

[Razors left peg]

The fine folks on Fox News now are advocating for just killing homeless people

https://www.threads.com/@aaron.rupar..._mVJ4uQ&slof=1

In response to him saying on TV that all homeless should just be killed, Fox news host Brian Kilmeade issued an apology

https://x.com/kilmeade/status/1967219726456959138

The fact that a guy can literally call for an extermination of hundreds of thousands of people on live tv and just get to apologize and move on is a sign of where the US is at today. This sort of rhetoric has been made ok by the Trump administration. Its very hard to see right now how things can ever be rolled back to "normal" over here. Its a scary time!

[Nesta99]

Some are certainly wanna-be Communists.

Some may well do. But i'll take it than that you accept that majority of the left of US politics are not communists or on the extremes of leftism.

[seanfhear]

Some may well do. But i'll take it than that you accept that majority of the left of US politics are not communists or on the extremes of leftism.

Probably, but it is actually hard to judge these days. There is certainly a good number around the edges of the American Democratic Party that you would never like to see have real power.

Just look at their reactions to the horrific assassination of Charlie Kirk.

[Eminence Grise]

Genuinely interested, seanfhear, how do you define communism? Or, rather, what does it mean to you? And which American politicians are communists - not by name-calling but by their actions which are congruent with Communism? I'm curuious because the Communist Party USA claims a mailing list (which I would infer is not the same as a paid-up membership) of 20,000. (The cynic in me thinks half of those are probably in the FBI!!)

By the way, this is the official CPUSA statement on the murder of Charlie Kirk:

The cycle of political violence that’s plagued the U.S. grew worse with the killing of right-wing Christian nationalist Charlie Kirk in Utah. The Communist Party USA rejects such violence.

In response, the MAGA movement, including Trump, have blamed Kirk’s murder on the “radical left,” labeling left politics a national security threat and calling for a crackdown and even war.

Yet, according to even ruling class law enforcement, the main source of political violence in our country is the radical right. This includes the thousands of insurrectionists whose attack on the U.S. Capitol the Trump White House pardoned, giving not only a nod and wink but outright approval. It also includes the assassination just weeks ago of Minnesota State Rep. Melissa Hortman and her husband. MAGA’s complete hypocrisy seems endless, and their refusal to address the use of weapons of war on our streets is a case in point.

The working-class and democratic movements know full well from our own long experience that acts of violence and terror only serve the interests of the forces of hate, racism, intolerance, and reaction.

Political violence against individuals, including mass shootings, serve no useful purpose, and we condemn them. Only systemic change will bring about the society we seek. Such change must come through non-violent peaceful mass struggle. The Communist Party USA recommits itself to this goal. We shall not be moved.

What do you take from that?

[seanfhear]

Genuinely interested, seanfhear, how do you define communism? Or, rather, what does it mean to you? And which American politicians are communists - not by name-calling but by their actions which are congruent with Communism? I'm curuious because the Communist Party USA claims a mailing list (which I would infer is not the same as a paid-up membership) of 20,000. (The cynic in me thinks half of those are probably in the FBI!!)

By the way, this is the official CPUSA statement on the murder of Charlie Kirk:



What do you take from that?

I will say that some of them are probably cos-playing as Communists, after-all so many of them are actually doing extremely well out of Capitalism.

Thing is, ya never really know the real Communists until they get the power to be real Communists.

Ya really get to know Communists when they become killing Communists i.e When they get the power to become killing Communists !

[Eminence Grise]

Seanfhear: if an undergrad gave me that answer in an essay, they'd fail the assessment for not addressing part a and for omitting part b. I'm going to pin you down here, and I'll make my questions more specific:


What are the characteristics that help you to identify communism as distinct from the moderate left?

Which of these characteristics are most unacceptable to you, and why?

Can you name three American politicians who exhibit those characteristics of communism, giving an example of each characteristic?

What is your reponse to the CPUSA statement on the murder of Charlie Kirk?

[seanfhear]

Seanfhear: if an undergrad gave me that answer in an essay, they'd fail the assessment for not addressing part a and for omitting part b. I'm going to pin you down here, and I'll make my questions more specific:


What are the characteristics that help you to identify communism as distinct from the moderate left?

Which of these characteristics are most unacceptable to you, and why?

Can you name three American politicians who exhibit those characteristics of communism, giving an example of each characteristic?

What is your response to the CPUSA statement on the murder of Charlie Kirk?

Well, the Communists will kill you as soon as it suits them, and as soon as they have the power to do so, Because killing is the only thing that Communists are really good at.

Can you name three American politicians who exhibit those characteristics of communism, giving an example of each characteristic?

AOC, Pocahontas, Jasmine Crockett, ( three off the top of my head ) ~ As I say it hard to differentiate between the Democrats cos-playing as Communists and the Democrats that would be Communists if they had the power to be Totalitarian Communists !

CPUSA statement

What Communists say and what Communists do doesn't very often tie in together.

[Eminence Grise]

Well, the Communists will kill you as soon as it suits them, and as soon as they have the power to do so, Because killing is the only thing that Communists are really good at.

But fascists kill indiscriminately, and absolute monarchs, theocrats and sundry despots of all political persuasion, left and right.

AOC, Pocahontas, Jasmine Crockett, ( three off the top of my head ) ~ As I say it hard to differentiate between the Democrats cos-playing as Communists and the Democrats that would be Communists if they had the power to be Totalitarian Communists !

I disagree: once you know the characteristics it's quite easy to distinguish committed Communists from those exploring their political position.

AOC: why is she a communist?
Jasmine Crockett: why is she a communist?
I don't want an opionion: I want a reasoned answer with an example.

Pocahontas died in 1617, about 250 years before Communism became a political ideology, and I'm unsure if there has been any exploration of her political affiliation though there has been a lot of ahistorical fetishising of her. Native Americans might have emphasied community or communalism at tribal level, but so too did Pope Pius XI in Quadragesimo anno in 1931 in opposition to communism, socialism - and capitalism.

I'm sure you didn't intend to list only three women of colour as your sample, and that it's just coincidence.

What Communists say and what Communists do doesn't very often tie in together.

It absolutely does.


So once more:

What are the characteristics that help you to identify communism as distinct from the moderate left?

Which of these characteristics are most unacceptable to you, and why?

Can you name three American politicians who exhibit those characteristics of communism, giving an example of each characteristic?

What is your reponse to the CPUSA statement on the murder of Charlie Kirk?

[SkStu]

Moderate left. Interesting turn of phrase that is worth discussion. There doesn't seem to be room for someone to be considered moderate anything anymore. As evidenced on here, if you hold liberal views on certain matters you are branded a commie killer; similarly if you hold more conservative views on these matters you are branded a fascist nazi. There is a lot of room for moderate views but nobody is interested in defining what these are. "If you're not with me, you are the evil enemy". We give way too much precious oxygen and airtime to extremes that represent probably 10% of the population (5% on each side) but those with vested interests like to paint that number at closer to 50%/50%. The topics of most dispute are so debate worthy too, like if you can really get stuck into them in a productive way, hear all sides, understand all fears, you might actually find a compromise that all sides can live with (isnt that what life is about?) - things like immigration, racial equality, womens rights (incl. transgender rights)...but sadly its become a game of "who can shout/shoot loudest".

[seanfhear]

But fascists kill indiscriminately, and absolute monarchs, theocrats and sundry despots of all political persuasion, left and right.



I disagree: once you know the characteristics it's quite easy to distinguish committed Communists from those exploring their political position.

AOC: why is she a communist?
Jasmine Crockett: why is she a communist?
I don't want an opionion: I want a reasoned answer with an example.

Pocahontas died in 1617, about 250 years before Communism became a political ideology, and I'm unsure if there has been any exploration of her political affiliation though there has been a lot of ahistorical fetishising of her. Native Americans might have emphasied community or communalism at tribal level, but so too did Pope Pius XI in Quadragesimo anno in 1931 in opposition to communism, socialism - and capitalism.

I'm sure you didn't intend to list only three women of colour as your sample, and that it's just coincidence.




It absolutely does.


So once more:

What are the characteristics that help you to identify communism as distinct from the moderate left?

Which of these characteristics are most unacceptable to you, and why?

Can you name three American politicians who exhibit those characteristics of communism, giving an example of each characteristic?

What is your reponse to the CPUSA statement on the murder of Charlie Kirk?

It's the killing Communists that I don't like, and that is all Communists when they get the power to do their Communist killing.

[passinginterest]

That's a fair point I think. Something that Irish politics/society seemed to be more resistant to than others was those extremes. In fact, overall, I think we're still a lot more moderate and tolerant of debate than elsewhere. The marriage equality and abortion referenda were examples of what would certainly be seen in the current light as liberal ideology being supported by the majority. A large part of their success seemed to come down to a willingness to debate and to be open to change. The social benefits were sold, and there was an acceptance or acknowledgement from many on the more conservative side that while gay marriage or abortion might not align with their personal views, there was potentially wider societal benefits and they wouldn't directly have to change their own views.

It feels like fear and anger have taken over from any kind of rational or moderate thought process for too many. The acceptance of world leaders brazenly lying, fake news, etc. all seems to be exacerbating the extremes. Again, social media seems to have a lot to answer for. There's now almost a fear of mainstream media and a belief that partizan, unregulated, extremist views, coming from within these social media bubbles is somehow better. Any kind of opposing view is dismissed, blocked, unfollowed, unfriended, so the bubble becomes more and more narrow and the moderate or different views start to completely disappear. Then when you come out of that bubble, there's screams that those views must be lies, because they don’t exist within their bubble, other than in being vilified.

So many views now are one liners, I think we’re seeing it in this thread. Ask for an explanation and a little bit of detail or logic and it doesn’t exist. The argument is just shout louder and it seems to be grounded in fear more than anything else. If it’s different then it must be bad, because my bubble says it’s bad. It’s going to be so hard to reverse this and it’s probably going to take a generation or more. It might well take a world war.