Referendum on the 8th amendment.

[Real ale Madrid]

The trouble in the "debate" was that you tended to only here from the nutters on either side.
"every sperm is sacred" versus "Abortion up to Birth"

I still don't get this part.

And the constant - there are lunatics on both sides arguments - which is nonsense.

The No side had:

Giant NO signs adorning landmarks.
17,000 Crosses placed on the side of the road.
Lies on campaign posters.
Information booklets made to look like official Referendum commission information.
Graphic posters held up outside maternity hospitals.
Graphic imagery on posters erected outside schools.
The constant use of disabled children as a tool for voting NO when expressly asked not to do so.
The use of music ( Ed Sheeran & Snow Patrol ) without permission - Another populist stunt.
The utter belittling of people with genuine mental health problems.
Not to mind what went on during some of the TV debates.

Now we have :
the Catholic church telling us we are all going to hell in the aftermath.
Declan Ganley doesn't want to pay his taxes to fund abortion
The Iona institute thinks your Granny is next on "The Death Train"
John McGurk is calling everyone angry.
John Waters is writing : Ireland - An Obituary.

on the Yes ledger:
Well apart from a few zealots out canvassing I'm not altogether sure. No lies, no graphic imagery, no posturing - just let the facts speak for themselves.
I think on some of the TV debates - a lot of YES people held thier counsel in face of some pretty objectionable behavior - to the detriment of the YES campaign at the time I thought.
Brid Smyth maybe is a bit of a nutter and some of the celebratory tweets were in poor taste - but most of the objectionable stuff was on the NO side for me.

The result I thought was a spectacular rejection of the Ireland of Old.

[jbyrne]

All they achieve is making themselves look like hardline uncaring people

uncaring people? the No side would argue otherwise. quite the opposite actually

[dahamsta]

uncaring people? the No side would argue otherwise. quite the opposite actually

They would, absolutely oblivious to the narrowness of their "caring".

[marinobohs]

Anyhoo, the referendum is OVER the people have spoken and whether we like it or not the decision is made. I expect the Government to quickly move to formalize the 'heads of Bill' published prior to the referendum into real legislation. while I think the provision of services by 1st January 2019 is probably hopelessly optimistic, I expect the HSE to move quickly (well, quicker than they usually do) to roll out the service.


hopefully the failure of some of the scaremongering tactics deployed by the 'No' side (as they failed in the SSM referendum) will lead to more proper rational debate on these issues in the future. some of the post referendum antics of the catholic church (banning V de P etc.) simply marginalize them further from the mainstream of Irish people (thankfully)

[OwlsFan]

They would, absolutely oblivious to the narrowness of their "caring".

So why was their slogan "love both" while the yes campaign was about the one person? One looks a bit narrower to me.

[backstothewall]

with access to termination still a long way off in Northern Ireland, could we see Donegal 9the only county to vote no) become a centre for women travelling from the North ?

I'd expect the busiest clinics outside Dublin to be in Dundalk and Letterkenny. And I'd expect there to be a lot of yellow number plates in the car park.

It will be interesting to see what the legislation ends up looking like. Despite my own reservations the heads of the bill produced by Simon Harris were clearly put to the people before the referendum, and obviously received very strong backing. Anything other than very modest shifts away from those proposals will be controversial, but who knows what could happen if there is an election between then and now.

[The Fly]

I don't really understand your point - the No campaign had plenty of stories from women who thought about seeking an abortion, but after a lot of thought or soul-searching, in the end decided to have their child instead.

My point is simply that you only ever hear of people speaking in terms of the 'gut-wrenching', or the 'difficult', or the 'harrowing' decision when it comes to their eventual decision to have an abortion. Which tells me that deep down those people know that said decision carries a great deal of moral weight. Your use of the phrase 'soul-searching' just reinforces it.

[The Fly]

I wouldn't be surprised if there's actually a reduction in the number of abortions procured by Irish women when the legislation takes effect.

It's possible, but highly improbable. The liberalisation of abortion law has led to more abortion in every country (or at least every country I'm aware of) where such liberalisation has taken place. It's statistically demonstrable.

The stress of knowing the option wasn't available locally must have been a huge additional burden, and once flights were booked etc. changing of mind would have been unlikely. At least now there's going to be consultation locally, advice, support etc. and with the proposals to increase access to birth control and improve sex education in schools it should be a much healthier environment for women in general.

Contraception is widely and virtually freely available already, and if...(from Wiki) "the purpose of sexuality education curriculum in Europe is to facilitate adolescents to gain knowledge, attitudes, skills and values to make appropriate and healthy choices in their sexual behaviour, thus preventing them from sexually transmitted infections, including HIV and HPV, teenage or unwanted pregnancies, and from domestic and sexual violence, contributing to a greater society", then it has failed in its purpose.

[The Fly]

No basis for that, nothing has changed anyway.

There was abortion last year and there will be this year - all we have done is face up to it.

I always thought that was one of, if not thee strongest argument that those advocating for repeal had; namely that abortion is a reality whether it be through export to Britain or importation online. It's important to remember though that in facing up to it, we have also 'okayed' it, and that will bring consequences.

One takeaway I got from the whole debate is that there's a significant number of people who think that the referendum (heralding Ireland's belated membership of true Western 'modernity') represents some kind of "End of History" moment...a la Francis Fukuyama. They're as wrong as he was.

[mark12345]

I always thought that was one of, if not thee strongest argument that those advocating for repeal had; namely that abortion is a reality whether it be through export to Britain or importation online. It's important to remember though that in facing up to it, we have also 'okayed' it, and that will bring consequences.

One takeaway I got from the whole debate is that there's a significant number of people who think that the referendum (heralding Ireland's belated membership of true Western 'modernity') represents some kind of "End of History" moment...a la Francis Fukuyama. They're as wrong as he was.

The 8th Amendment. Remember that. If you don't, who could blame you?
It was designed for you not to be appalled by its language (just like "The Right To Choose" or "Pro Choice" in America).
Why is this relevant now?
Well in case it went unnoticed in Ireland this week, the New York State Legislature just passed a bill which allows a baby to be aborted at any time during the pregnancy and even after it has been born (killed in other words).
Some are calling it the "Fourth Trimester". Others are calling it "Infantacide"

And those who perform these abortions/killings cannot be prosecuted (and from what I understand they don't even have to be medical professionals - lay people who do it also).
And the wonderful folks in the New York State Legislature rose in unison to cheer and applaud the passing of the bill.

Meanwhile down in Virginia, a bill was introduced which the Governor of that state backed. In his description of what would happen in such situations, Governor Northam said that a baby could potentially be born and "made comfortable" while the mother and physician were allowed to have a discussion as to its (the baby's) fate. Meaning that any time after the birth of the baby, the mother could decide whether she wanted the child or not. There was no word as to how long the mother could take to decide (a half hour, an hour, a week a month?) Who knows? One wonders, what would happen if the mother decided after a few months that she really didn't want her newborn? Fortunately that bill was defeated in the Viriniga State Legislature. But it looks like we have reached new lows in our 'handling' of the unborn.

Why is this important to Ireland? Well you can be guaranteed it is coming to a hospital near you soon.

[Real ale Madrid]

The 8th Amendment. Remember that. If you don't, who could blame you?
It was designed for you not to be appalled by its language (just like "The Right To Choose" or "Pro Choice" in America).
Why is this relevant now?
Well in case it went unnoticed in Ireland this week, the New York State Legislature just passed a bill which allows a baby to be aborted at any time during the pregnancy and even after it has been born (killed in other words).
Some are calling it the "Fourth Trimester". Others are calling it "Infantacide"

And those who perform these abortions/killings cannot be prosecuted (and from what I understand they don't even have to be medical professionals - lay people who do it also).
And the wonderful folks in the New York State Legislature rose in unison to cheer and applaud the passing of the bill.

Meanwhile down in Virginia, a bill was introduced which the Governor of that state backed. In his description of what would happen in such situations, Governor Northam said that a baby could potentially be born and "made comfortable" while the mother and physician were allowed to have a discussion as to its (the baby's) fate. Meaning that any time after the birth of the baby, the mother could decide whether she wanted the child or not. There was no word as to how long the mother could take to decide (a half hour, an hour, a week a month?) Who knows? One wonders, what would happen if the mother decided after a few months that she really didn't want her newborn? Fortunately that bill was defeated in the Viriniga State Legislature. But it looks like we have reached new lows in our 'handling' of the unborn.

Why is this important to Ireland? Well you can be guaranteed it is coming to a hospital near you soon.

Nonsense - from start to finish.

[nigel-harps1954]

That's the greatest load of horsesh!t I've read in quite some time.

[mark12345]

I take it from your response that you do not believe what I've written?
I have absolutely no reason to lie - it was all over American TV during the week.
I won't benefit in way shape or form if you believe me or not.
But for your own peace of mind, do your research and find out for yourself.

[mark12345]

That's the greatest load of horsesh!t I've read in quite some time.

Don't take my word for it. Maybe you look at the following.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBoT4Xi8QVo

Nonsense - from start to finish.

Nonsense?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBoT4Xi8QVo

[NeverFeltBetter]

Only saw the above post because it was quoted (so they aren't "hidden" like user posts, I'm guessing its impossible to do so). Did a quick Google on this issue. Beyond the (numerous) Conservative media outlets screaming "Infantacide!" I found this pretty good summation from Vox, this fact check from NBC and this counter-point from a Democrat.

Long story short, the proposed laws are being deliberately misinterpreted and the governor in question has been misquoted/had quotes taken out of context. Shocker, I know. I'm sure the response is going to be something along the lines of "mainstream liberal media". I don't care.