The "Myth" of Celticism

[DannyInvincible]

Following on from discussion in the "Barstool facepalm" thread...

[BonnieShels]

Good mawn yourself. This is how one does it.

[passinginterest]

All I can think of is Colm Meaney's character in Intermission.
"You just don't have the requisite Celtic soul, man."

[peadar1987]

All I can think of is Colm Meaney's character in Intermission.
"You just don't have the requisite Celtic soul, man."

Nobody here understands when I joke about putting brown sauce in tea. It's awful!

[BonnieShels]

Nobody here understands when I joke about putting brown sauce in tea. It's awful!

Have an indoctrination session.

Intermission, Father Ted and Apres Match should do as they say in the States.

[SkStu]

Nobody here understands when I joke about putting brown sauce in tea. It's awful!

no its not... its fckin delish, man.

[Spudulika]

This makes about as much sense as talking about the Irish as a celtic people. We're about as celtic as the British! The celtic myth was created at a time when there was a drive for national identity. Being a celt was nice, warm and fuzzy, plus it meant we were better than the big bullying powers knocking about the place.

Celticism is kind of the same as the myth that Croats are an ethnically distinct group that came from Iran, rather than a mongrel breed that were battered from pillar to post by anyone with a force of more than a few dozen. As Irish people we're a mix of all sorts. Ireland has always been open to trade and infusion, thousands of years ago we were importing (directly or more likely through many brokers) amber from the Baltic, hair gel from the Pyrenees and wine from the Med. Up at Navan fort (Armagh) the skull of a barbary ape was found - which is dated to the late Bronze/early Iron age (400BC if I remember my early morning lessons). These people were not celts, but Irish.

As I mentioned on the other thread, in the archaeological record there is no evidence of any movement of peoples into Ireland (as invaders or otherwise) or of population growth. Additionally we are not genetically linked to the actual peoples of the iron age called celts (central europe). There was, according to Gabe the Babe Cooney, an Atlantic seaboard culture that persisted for hundreds of years and linked us all the way up to Scandanavia. Archaeology confirms this in burial and burial item/gift types.

[DannyInvincible]

I understand that the vast majority of people who now inhabit the island of Ireland share a common genetic marker otherwise most frequently found in those who inhabit the Basque region. Isn't our lingual heritage undeniably Celtic though? Our native language is a Celtic language, unless I'm horribly mistaken.

[peadar1987]

This makes about as much sense as talking about the Irish as a celtic people. We're about as celtic as the British! The celtic myth was created at a time when there was a drive for national identity. Being a celt was nice, warm and fuzzy, plus it meant we were better than the big bullying powers knocking about the place.

Celticism is kind of the same as the myth that Croats are an ethnically distinct group that came from Iran, rather than a mongrel breed that were battered from pillar to post by anyone with a force of more than a few dozen. As Irish people we're a mix of all sorts. Ireland has always been open to trade and infusion, thousands of years ago we were importing (directly or more likely through many brokers) amber from the Baltic, hair gel from the Pyrenees and wine from the Med. Up at Navan fort (Armagh) the skull of a barbary ape was found - which is dated to the late Bronze/early Iron age (400BC if I remember my early morning lessons). These people were not celts, but Irish.

As I mentioned on the other thread, in the archaeological record there is no evidence of any movement of peoples into Ireland (as invaders or otherwise) or of population growth. Additionally we are not genetically linked to the actual peoples of the iron age called celts (central europe). There was, according to Gabe the Babe Cooney, an Atlantic seaboard culture that persisted for hundreds of years and linked us all the way up to Scandanavia. Archaeology confirms this in burial and burial item/gift types.

I don't dispute anything you said, but for me, language and culture are far more important than race and genetics. And Ireland shares several linguistic and cultural similarities with the other regions not occupied by any of the major central and southern European powers, like Scotland, Galicia, Bretagne, the Isle of Man, etc.

[TheBoss]

The Celts (as we know) who were from mid-europe and were forced to edges of Europe by other races/groups. They ended up in the places mentioned, North Spain, West France and Ireland, Scotland, Wales and South-West England. In Ireland, They married into the local peoples and mingled with society at the time to create an Irish/Celtic people. They were that way for some until the Normans came and took control, they also married into the peoples and mingled with society. The Normans were basically Viking/French people. So essentially, the race of people has morphed into an Irish/Celtic/French/Viking people. After that we had the plantations, and that brought with mostly English/Scottish people coming over here and some also married with the locals. English and Scottish people also have routes in the Viking race. If we go through the whole of Europe, we see that the Viking race is probably the most common ancestor for the majority of European people and we all are more closely related than people may think.

So generally Irish people today are more Viking than Celtic.

[DannyInvincible]

From Wikipedia on Irish genetics:

The frequency of Y-DNA haplogroup R1b (the most common haplogroup in Europe) is highest in the populations of Atlantic Europe and, due to European emigration, in North America, South America, and Australia. In Ireland and the Basque Country its frequency exceeds 90% and approaches 100% in Western Ireland. The incidence of R1b is 70% or more in Celtic regions - Cumbria and Cornwall in England, the Celtic Calheça region in Portugal (Dourany, Minhão (Braga and Viana do Castelo) and Trás-os-Montes), northern Spain (Celtic Galicia, Asturias, León and Cantabria and Basque Country), western France (Béarn, Gascony, Guyenne, Saintonge, Angoumois, Aunis, Poitou, Touraine, Anjou and the Celtic Brittany), and Celtic Countries - Wales and Scotland in Britain. R1b's incidence declines gradually with distance from these areas but it is still common across the central areas of Europe. R1b is the most frequent haplogroup in Germany and in the Low Countries, and is common in southern Scandinavia and in northern and central Italy. This led to writers, such as Stephen Oppenheimer and Bryan Sykes, to conclude that the majority of Irish people (and indeed all natives of the British Isles) primarily descend from an "Iberian refugium" population bottleneck dating back to the last ice age.