Unfair. He's not a troll, he's an asset and guilty of nothing other than consistent non-grey opinion from the get-go. Yes, the debate has been animated and entertaining - exactly what a forum needs to be relevant. He writes concisely, avoids profanity and will not be brow beaten. What hurts many is that performances and results are proving him right.
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Go Coillte Mach rachad / ní stopfaidh me choíche /
Go seasfaidh mé síos / i lár Chondae Mhaigh Eo. -
Eventually Sheffield United just got found out - they were Championship players playing as a unit in an innovative system that gave them a shot against players of a higher calibre - but after 40-60 games the other teams figured it out, just as probably happened with the names CTP mentioned. But 40-60 games in international football is 3-4 qualifying campaigns. Remember, Jack's direct approach served us well for 8 years before it started to really fade. Added bonus - John Egan and Enda Stevens were integral to Wilder's system. If he could throw in a few tweaks, might be worth a punt.Comment
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We're not awash with options, for sure.
The position is not that attractive tbh, in terms of the money on offer and the set of players available. Whoever replaces him won't be inspiring, no doubt. We'd either get something of a has-been with a decent CV, or take a punt on somebody quite inexperienced (who might turn out to be an inspired choice, but the more inspired they are, the quicker they leave).
In terms of has-beens with decent CVs, Hughton is probably in the mix. As well as having played for Ireland, he's probably affordable, not in huge demand, and has loads of experience at a high level.
I understand that the way he typically sets his teams up doesn't align with what Kenny has been trying to do, but if you hire him on condition that he does continue that process, I still think he could do the job better than Kenny.
I guess it all depends on how well people think Kenny is doing the job. In my case, I obviously think he's doing it quite badly, so the standard of manager that I'd still consider to be an improvement on him is lower than others.Last edited by osarusan; 29/11/2022, 3:59 PM.Comment
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Where’s the wisdom in bringing in a manager known for a conservative approach to games? Our individual strength is in defensive positions, surely a manager that can improve us where we are weakest is preferable? Hughton has already had a go - he had the ear of Kerr, lest we forget, and we have had years of overpaying for managers in retirement who simply parked the bus, and lobbed balls into the box in the hope of fluking a goal. I’d stick with Kenny and try to get Barry back in – maybe that’s an option if Belgian get knocked out early.Comment
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The Belgian management teams P45s are probably waiting for them at home already unless they can win the tournament. I wouldn't mind Barry back as a coach because he's a highly rated coach but wouldn't be surprised if he moves into management in the summer. Few clubs looked at him last summer as an option.Comment
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A poll on twitter from Rep of Ireland Player Tracker that had ~1350 votes. I cant recall prior results but this does appear to support the general trend on here that patience is beginning to wear thin but still a touch more support for him to stay. I didnt vote on it, just seen the results now. They shouldnt have had the third option, in my opinion, to get a truer sense but interesting nonetheless!
I like high energy football. A little bit rock and roll. Many finishes instead of waiting for the perfect one.Comment
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Speaking with two lads from home(west of ireland) at the weekend who were fairly irregular, well irregular for most of us, once a year attendees better than others though, who bought season tickets this year. Asked them why this year over others their reasoning was its great value for money and going together meant they could pass on the tickets or bring one or other children if they wanted, whereas buying separate games if they bought 4 they'd already be over the season ticket price. Interesting logic. They werent too bothered about playing style or results - it wasnt a deterrent or reason to purchase them.
Objection! Obfuscation by selective inclusion, there's always been a loud and destructive element in the forum well before Kenny was appointed, perhaps memory is short or its easier to only see it when the force of that is against your own opinion. I think the forum is a far better place than it was a few years ago, yes there are some more extreme viewpoints on both sides but its a lot more streamlined that it used to be. There's only one poster I know who writes essays that appears randomly through the years to massage his own paranoid views and he's back but personally I just skip his posts - they're completely non-sensical outside of that its a fairly rational debate the last few years even if opinions rarely converge amongst the two sides of the debate.
The reality is BS is going to be gone by the next appointment of Ireland manager, and weldondinho will be only back when things arent going the way he sees fit. Its been the pattern, rinse and repeat of this forum for years. Its still worth having them around all the same. I do miss YI though he was the most logical debater with a good splash of passion to grace this forum.
They've been much cuter than that, they've remained quiet or moved around the periphery talking about less relevant topics not really addressing the elephant in the room, shifting goalposts. There was a lot more grandiose prophesising going on at the start of his tenure after even 1 game and certainly for the next dozen. That could well be down to why some feel the forum is quieter as those who had gambled the house on him are a bit more weary now. Or perhaps now perhaps they think its all going to change and then come back and start interacting again.My take, for what its worth - the guts of the pro-Kenny side of things for the last couple of years has been "just give him a bit more time and see, theres a new approach and young players, give him some breathing room" - - and i think most have moved further away from that middle ground in the last 3-5 months. Others havent but they're not being loudspeaker a-holes about it either. Neither are the vast majority of the anti-Kenny side.
Breaking down you paragraphs Nigel:
1) Agree 100% though I did see glimpses of things like the Larnaca away where he really didnt seem to know what was going wrong around him that worried me slightly.
2) Things are much worse than "arent going great" they are terrible. And no there has not been a monumental shift in how we play, there has been no new world order or new wave. We keep the ball better around the back and centre circle but that is NOT a monumental shift.
3) Yes that's probably right, I get the feeling for Kenny if things start to go bad and he doesnt get control of it then it all goes out of hand and he doesnt have the temperament or knowhow to get things back on track.
4) I like him as a person, and I liked what he did with Derry, with Bohs and of course Dundalk and I really hoped he could mirror and repeat that with Ireland. But heres what I think the problem is, Kenny is like a very skilled tradesman, one you don't get often, but he has to have the exact tools and materials that work for his philosophy or the whole foundation crumbles, so forget about your nice facade and fancy stonewall, you dont even get the solid foundations to build upon.
To be fair weldoninhio Stu has come in from the fringes and he has never shirked his "owning" of his metaphorical Donkey. He has always said he backed Kenny from the start and believed in the Greenshoots he saw. Now he has pretty much admitted he is conflicted and probably got it wrong. That's "owning" it to me I think.I'm a bloke,I'm an ocker
And I really love your knockers,I'm a labourer by day,
I **** up all me pay,Watching footy on TV,
Just feed me more VB,Just pour my beer,And get my smokes, And go awayComment
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We’ve qualified for three tournaments since the 94WC, all by way of playoff. If we say we were third seed ranks throughout this time, qualifying three times during a 30-year span is a law of averages expected return. And for the most part, we have played tepid, uninspiring football. Sure, we had the odd morale victory to give the illusion of being “competitive”. But I can’t help feeling that are current inability to produce creative players is the legacy of our senior team being set up to not lose, rather than set up to win games. Maybe Kenny’s time is up, but we frankly need a Stephen Kenny to replace him. Otherwise, it another 30 odd years of hoping for a favourable qualification draw and another couple of hundred of pages on the potential eligible players thread looking to unearth a short-term fix for a long-term problem.Last edited by ifk101; 30/11/2022, 4:05 PM.Comment
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I wont quote your full post Paul but its mostly "fair enough, good post" at this point.
Not sure about this in response to that part of my post. I think a lot of people were glad to see him appointed and where the differences are is based on the degree to which people saw this as a challenge in terms of rebuilding, restyling and how long that could reasonably expect to take before we would see greenshoots or regular results and performances... that is all outside of some of the other awkward things that happened for him in a new role (a lot of new, young players with a new manager during the instability of Covid - covid alone not an excuse but the compounding effect of a new squad, style and the inability to select a consistent squad - made things tougher than for others; the Robbie Keane stuff; the knives out in the backroom). The long and short of it is the degree to which he was/is supported in the role is directly connected to the length of time people were willing to give him. For me, i was consistent since day one - I was supportive and excited for his general vision but also i had concerns with Kenny and his public speaking / media comfort; further, i wasnt sure if he was ready at the time he was appointed. I always said it was a 2 year grace period for me but that i would want to see progress. That timeline came and went and i wasnt seeing the things i would have hoped to have seen so, yep, changed tack. It doesnt make me wrong or right or vice versa. I think the same general principle was applied by quite a few on here - you too Paul, to be fair, although you lost faith super early (not day one though) i think when you realized you wouldnt be going for a jolly-up for a few years.They've been much cuter than that, they've remained quiet or moved around the periphery talking about less relevant topics not really addressing the elephant in the room, shifting goalposts. There was a lot more grandiose prophesising going on at the start of his tenure after even 1 game and certainly for the next dozen. That could well be down to why some feel the forum is quieter as those who had gambled the house on him are a bit more weary now. Or perhaps now perhaps they think its all going to change and then come back and start interacting again.
Why i get passionate about the contributions of the militant anti-Kennyites is that there is no similarly structured argument that they can provide as they have had knives out since day one (mostly because of his background in the domestic league, i am guessing). I don't think there is any reasonableness on show. Zero recognition of any mitigating factors that might have warranted a little more patience. Thats the jist of what i have been saying over the last while and none of them have presented anything to refute it. To loop it back to the bit of your post i quoted, i think this is why quite a few have stopped engaging regularly or at all. There needs to be a bit of balance, a bit of flexibility, a bit of give and take.I like high energy football. A little bit rock and roll. Many finishes instead of waiting for the perfect one.Comment
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Well said Stu.
I think people like Gary Breen's views have been telling too. Afaik, Breen started out quite negative but then agreed that positives were emerging, and then complained that we were taking big steps backwards after every few steps forwards. You're allowed to change your position as time passes.
I agree too that it's fair to say Stu did "own it". He's been very transparent throughout.Comment
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I had some cautious optimism when Kenny was appointed. The last manager that had excellent LOI credentials, success at youth level, and also replaced Mick McCarthy as manager of the senior side had underachieved massively, with a far superior squad. I did think that the U21s had improved during Kenny's time in charge - there were results, and more importantly performances, that were streets ahead of what we had seen from the U21s prior to his appointment - but there were a few points from the results that were being passed over, e.g. the loss to Iceland, or failing to score in three of the five games in Toulon.
The first few games in his charge were not a big change from the team under Mick. The stats we had complained about (passing, possession) were improving, but we were struggling to get results, and struggling to score. Then we were struggling to have a shot on target. Then we lost to Luxembourg. The biggest factor in Kenny's first win, against Andorra, was the fitness/conditioning of the Andorran players. After that game, I genuinely didn't think he'd last beyond the end of 2021, but a strong end to the year, only one more loss, three wins, and four consecutive clean sheets, gave hope to 2022.
The year opened with a credible 2-2 draw with Belgium, and a hard fought win against Lithuania. The manager was talking about winning the Nations League group, talking up the team in a way that hadn't been done in a long time, but this became a rod for his back after losing the opening two games, meaning instead of pushing for promotion to League A, we were fighting against relegation to League C.
The 3-0 win against Scotland, our first in the Nation's League, came out of nowhere, and the recovery from the loss to Ukraine to draw with them, along with the quality of Collins' goal meant that we went into the final two games of the campaign looking to finish in the top two, but the loss to Scotland (which I was on a flight for so I'm not going to comment on the performance) and needing a last minute penalty to beat Armenia at home, after leading 2-0 meant that questions were starting to be asked. For the first time in Kenny's reign, I heard boos at the end of a game after beating Armenia. Briefly, granted, but audible.
Losing to Norway, after a flat performance with little in the way of experimentation, and only beating Malta after a gift of a goal in a game where both sets of players would clearly prefer to be anywhere else, have meant that the fans are starting to ask questions about Kenny as a manager - on the improvements that he has brought as manager, and why some disimprovements that were noted at the beginning his time in charge have still not been addressed.
Next year will bring World Cup favourites France, and the Dutch (a striker short of being a great team IMO, but still capable of goals) to Ireland, as well as a strong Greece side that we've lost to in two of the three games we've played against them. It's not going to be pretty, and while I think that actual results against the top two seeds in the group will be forgiven, if performances do not improve, he might not be in charge in 12 months time.Last edited by tetsujin1979; 02/12/2022, 1:18 AM.Comment
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I think this is substantially right. I think from 1986 until recently there has been a fear of losing rather than embracing the chance of winning. I'm not sure how else you can explain the woeful underuse of players like Andy Reid and Wes down the years. I know Reid had his guitar/curfew thing but if he'd been seen as key to how we play he'd have been forgiven far earlier.
Anyway, Martinez/Barry will be available soon you'd expect. Realistic candidates? Appropriate?Comment
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The guitar/curfew thing was such a non-issue but Trap used to get rid of Reid. If it was Robbie Keane (who I believe actually was the ringleader) it wouldn’t have even made the papers.
I remember Wes scoring in a friendly V Poland and Trap looked disgusted on the sideline cos it meant there’d be more pressure on him to play WesFolding my way into the big money!!!Comment
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