Stephen Kenny

[John83]

I would say the population comparison is significant. How can Croatia (and indeed Uruguay) with similar population do infinitely better than us. It's all down to coaching. And while ours may have improved a bit, we're still not remotely close to these standards

"All" is too strong. Coaching and youth structures are the biggest part, but there are others: e.g. as Ireland grew more affluent, the attraction of a risky sporting career may have diminished; rugby has become the flagship successful international team sport, siphoning off atheletic talent; the GAA also competes for talent; both GAA and rugby compete for state sports funding (as do horse and greyhound racing with a disgraceful amount of success); "home-grown" quotas in UK squads and the rise of UK football as a fashionably place for a billionaire to own a club means our players are competing with global talent far more than a generation ago.

The way you fight all of this is to improve domestic youth structures and coaching, and to invest in the domestic league as a development league for young talent. That requires competent investment, and we have the FAI: a laughing stock among sporting organisations even domestically.

[paul_oshea]

I'm not so sure. Look at Switzerland , conflict is dying out in these countries , and with that the sense of national identity is diluting. Mad to think ireland has 20% non-native population already. It's great if it wasn't so regionalised. But at the same time I don't want that sense of " irishness " lost.

Oh and the money thing in Croatia. No I'm not buying that either that's why hajduk fans were protesting in the stands at those euros way back. Dinamo are still corrupt sure the president had to go live in bih for a while due to all the swindling. That money is all soaked up in one club. It does very little for Croatian football. Have you been to hajduk stadium? Their trophy cabinet is the most impressive thing about it....

[tetsujin1979]

Just you bring it back to Croatia, teams like Zagreb have been exporting players successfully for decades, and ploughing that money back into their facilities. As well as that they've had success domestically and played regularly in European competition, all of which raised their profile and have playing for them an attractive proposition.
If you asked a Croatian football fan to name a League of Ireland team, how many do you think they'd manage?

[seanfhear]

Croatia produces fine athletic specimens as well ( that are also brilliant footballers which helps ) and when the exception turns out to be Luka Modric then you have some sort of DNA advantage.

I would say Croatians are very patriotic and probably don’t pay much attention when their club managers tell them Not to come back with injuries / hamstring strains / etc.

Football wise they are on a different planet to the Republic of Ireland.

[Stuttgart88]

read this article today and thought of my post above. While i wont say "i'm right" as it is clearly a very nuanced topic, the article does support that possession without intent is meaningless in terms of team effectiveness and that good players make a big difference. Anyway, more so thought it might be a good read for those interested...

https://theathletic.com/2352067/2021...c-in-football/

fair enough, but the observation that possession for possession’s sake is hardly revelatory.

[SkStu]

No, not at all!! But as I said, it does go a bit deeper into the whole topic of possession and other statistical indicators around effectiveness.

[tetsujin1979]

It's a bit like using BMI for health. At best, it's an indicator of how well you're doing, but you can still get a good result despite having a bad value in either.

[paul_oshea]

Ya you told youre a healthy weight only to have chronic heart disease

[Stuttgart88]

I've always been a bit sceptical of this "competing sports" argument. I've heard it said you need x hours a week of contact with a ball etc to develop to the standard required and our players aren't getting that. I've heard that early specialisation is key but equally I've heard that playing other sports is key. Which is it? My guess (and that's all it is) is that if you have the talent to be a top footballer you'll get there despite the competition from other codes - notwithstanding luck, having a pathway etc.

I've heard anecdotally that John Egan was a brilliant GAA footballer, Shane Long a great hurler, Tony Grealish a very good GAA footballer, Niall Quinn a real talent at hurling. Several rugby players like Rob Kearney had very good GAA backgrounds. But they all ended up doing what they were comparatively better at and at a very high level. I read at the time of his death that Grealish was immersed in GAA culture but what really stood out was his gift for footy. Does football really lose top class talent to GAA and rugby? Maybe we actually benefit from it?

I'd place more value on an argument that Croatia and Denmark benefit from having exposure to other sports like handball, or hockey in the Netherlands, sports that give you not just the diversified exposure you need to develop certain motor skills but also spatial awareness that is closer to the needs of football.

I'm not sure rugby draws its talent pool from potential top class footballers. I'm not making a socio economic cliche here but a disproportionate number of rugby players come from a small number of schools. And the type of athlete needed to excel at rugby isn't necessarily the same as that required by football. GAA football is probably closer but I remember hearing stories like Graham Geraty trialling at football and not being good enough.

I think the GAA's economic and political might crowds out investment in football though, and that is a big factor. I don't think the IRFU crowds out potential investment in football though.

[seanfhear]

I've always been a bit sceptical of this "competing sports" argument. I've heard it said you need x hours a week of contact with a ball etc to develop to the standard required and our players aren't getting that. I've heard that early specialisation is key but equally I've heard that playing other sports is key. Which is it? My guess (and that's all it is) is that if you have the talent to be a top footballer you'll get there despite the competition from other codes - notwithstanding luck, having a pathway etc.

I've heard anecdotally that John Egan was a brilliant GAA footballer, Shane Long a great hurler, Tony Grealish a very good GAA footballer, Niall Quinn a real talent at hurling. Several rugby players like Rob Kearney had very good GAA backgrounds. But they all ended up doing what they were comparatively better at and at a very high level. I read at the time of his death that Grealish was immersed in GAA culture but what really stood out was his gift for footy. Does football really lose top class talent to GAA and rugby? Maybe we actually benefit from it?

I'd place more value on an argument that Croatia and Denmark benefit from having exposure to other sports like handball, or hockey in the Netherlands, sports that give you not just the diversified exposure you need to develop certain motor skills but also spatial awareness that is closer to the needs of football.

I'm not sure rugby draws its talent pool from potential top class footballers. I'm not making a socio economic cliche here but a disproportionate number of rugby players come from a small number of schools. And the type of athlete needed to excel at rugby isn't necessarily the same as that required by football. GAA football is probably closer but I remember hearing stories like Graham Geraty trialling at football and not being good enough.

I think the GAA's economic and political might crowds out investment in football though, and that is a big factor. I don't think the IRFU crowds out potential investment in football though.

I was a much better soccer player than a GAA player but I could do a certain job on a GAA pitch if you needed a player to give the full-back / centre half-back a physical battle ~ I will be honest if you had a good attacking player then I would not be playing but sometime needs must, and in these positions a physical battle can have an impact on a GAA pitch.

John Egans father was a brilliant Kerry footballer who won multiple All-Ireland in one of the best GAA teams of all time ~ ~ He was a very fast forward and I mean very fast.

[Stuttgart88]

Yeah I remember John Egan Senior very well!

But what was your main point? That you were maybe a more effective GAA player despite being more talented at football? Did playing both make you better at either?

[liamoo11]

I've always been a bit sceptical of this "competing sports" argument. I've heard it said you need x hours a week of contact with a ball etc to develop to the standard required and our players aren't getting that. I've heard that early specialisation is key but equally I've heard that playing other sports is key. Which is it? My guess (and that's all it is) is that if you have the talent to be a top footballer you'll get there despite the competition from other codes - notwithstanding luck, having a pathway etc.

I've heard anecdotally that John Egan was a brilliant GAA footballer, Shane Long a great hurler, Tony Grealish a very good GAA footballer, Niall Quinn a real talent at hurling. Several rugby players like Rob Kearney had very good GAA backgrounds. But they all ended up doing what they were comparatively better at and at a very high level. I read at the time of his death that Grealish was immersed in GAA culture but what really stood out was his gift for footy. Does football really lose top class talent to GAA and rugby? Maybe we actually benefit from it?

I'd place more value on an argument that Croatia and Denmark benefit from having exposure to other sports like handball, or hockey in the Netherlands, sports that give you not just the diversified exposure you need to develop certain motor skills but also spatial awareness that is closer to the needs of football.

I'm not sure rugby draws its talent pool from potential top class footballers. I'm not making a socio economic cliche here but a disproportionate number of rugby players come from a small number of schools. And the type of athlete needed to excel at rugby isn't necessarily the same as that required by football. GAA football is probably closer but I remember hearing stories like Graham Geraty trialling at football and not being good enough.

I think the GAA's economic and political might crowds out investment in football though, and that is a big factor. I don't think the IRFU crowds out potential investment in football though.

Yeah I agree we don't lose irish internationals to gaa. Tohill and gerarthy had a go at pro football when at a high level but weren't good enough.

Dessie Hutchinson at Brighton was a very good player but a level below the likes of molumby and when it didn't work out went back very successfully to hurling.

Lads gave up gaa to play pro rugby sweetman the Cork hurler been an example of a super hurlin talent who took the pro contract with munster when it was on offer and has had a decent 10 year rugby career but hasn't reached the heights I think he would have in hurling

GAA loses players to afl rehularly simply as it offers a bit of travel and a chance to earn a bit of money and the vast majority have very limited success compared to how successful they would be at gaa

Bottom line is there are likely no kids who would have been international footballers if it wasn't for gaa

[seanfhear]

Yeah I remember John Egan Senior very well!

But what was your main point? That you were maybe a more effective GAA player despite being more talented at football? Did playing both make you better at either?

No ~ I was a more talented soccer player ~ Had a bit of skill, even if I say so myself ~ I suppose being able to look after myself on a GAA pitch also helped me be able to look after myself on a Soccer pitch ~ The skills did not really translate from Soccer to GAA.

I spent a lot of time on my own becoming skilled with a soccer ball ~ ~ Had there been a lot of other boys about playing GAA I may well have become more skilled at GAA ~ ~ I think you need to actually play GAA to become skilled at GAA ~ ~ I think you can actually become skilled with a soccer ball on your own ~ ~ I even played a lot indoors un-supervised on the stairs / in rooms in just socks ~ ~ I became skill-full at not banging my toes off stuff while still controlling the ball ~ ~ I did once break a crystal jug belonging to my mother ~ like I said I was left “ un-supervised “ a lot. Obviously you then need to play soccer to translate that skill to the soccer field. I did some of this but not enough and certainly not enough 11 a side ~ ~ lots of 5 aside though ~ I was / am around 5 foot 9 inches ( and a bit ) ~ ya might get away with that in soccer ( in some positions ) but you would have to pretty darn good or in a specialist position to do well in Rugby or GAA at that height. You might get away with being a clever fast forward / fullback in soccer or extremely good in other positions in soccer at that height.

I would say ~ again my own opinion ~ my three weakness’s as a soccer player were ~ Very right footed / could have done with a bit more speed but who couldn’t / probably could have done with being a bit bigger as well ~ ~ I was pretty good at everything else if I say so myself and was obviously a great loss to Irish soccer ( wink wink )

I also did a lot of ball work outside of course ~ just pinging passes to a seat / pillar / what ever / off a wall ~ ~ another weakness, not a great long passer.

I did play as a forward in both sports which is mildly interesting.

[seanfhear]

[QUOTE=seanfhear;2132619]

Yeah I agree we don't lose irish internationals to gaa. Tohill and gerarthy had a go at pro football when at a high level but weren't good enough.

Dessie Hutchinson at Brighton was a very good player but a level below the likes of molumby and when it didn't work out went back very successfully to hurling.

Lads gave up gaa to play pro rugby sweetman the Cork hurler been an example of a super hurlin talent who took the pro contract with munster when it was on offer and has had a decent 10 year rugby career but hasn't reached the heights I think he would have in hurling

GAA loses players to afl rehularly simply as it offers a bit of travel and a chance to earn a bit of money and the vast majority have very limited success compared to how successful they would be at gaa

Bottom line is there are likely no kids who would have been international footballers if it wasn't for gaa

I will give one example of a guy that would surely have been a good soccer player ~ ~ Mikey Sheehy of Kerry ~ ~ That man had ball skill to burn as a GAA player ~ ~ I find it impossible to believe that had he being playing soccer from a young boy that he would not have been able to transfer that ball skill to soccer ~ ~ Look the reality is to make it as a professional soccer player then you are going to have to have played an enormous amount of soccer when you are young. Isn’t there something about 10,000 hours of practice whilst also having the talent.

I reckon there is a lot of GAA players that could have made a darn good go of making it at soccer if they had played enough soccer when they were young ~ ~ And some of them actually making it as professionals. Kevin Moran as one example.

[Eirambler]

Yeah I agree we don't lose irish internationals to gaa. Tohill and gerarthy had a go at pro football when at a high level but weren't good enough.

Dessie Hutchinson at Brighton was a very good player but a level below the likes of molumby and when it didn't work out went back very successfully to hurling.

Lads gave up gaa to play pro rugby sweetman the Cork hurler been an example of a super hurlin talent who took the pro contract with munster when it was on offer and has had a decent 10 year rugby career but hasn't reached the heights I think he would have in hurling

GAA loses players to afl rehularly simply as it offers a bit of travel and a chance to earn a bit of money and the vast majority have very limited success compared to how successful they would be at gaa

Bottom line is there are likely no kids who would have been international footballers if it wasn't for gaa

I have to say I couldn't agree with this less to be honest. I'm absolutely convinced that we lose international standard players to GAA, loads of them, we just don't know who they are (and they're probably not the big name gaelic footballers).

Take, just for example, the counties of Dublin and Mayo. Dublin has about 10 times the population of Mayo, but probably 100 times the number of senior international football players, if not more. There hasn't been an Irish senior international from Mayo in decades. Statistically, if all things were spread equally, there should have been quite a few internationals from Mayo in that time, but there haven't been any. If there have been, say, 200 international players from Dublin in the last 25 years there should have been probably 15 to 20 from Mayo.

Do people really think that's because people from Dublin are somehow naturally better at football than people from Mayo? Surely it's fairly obvious that it's just the case because most kids in Mayo grow up only playing Gaelic, so therefore never have a chance to be professional football players. Whereas football is played a lot more by young people in Dublin.

The make up of our senior team is very clearly biased towards areas where football is played more. Obviously. Therefore there will be literally hundreds of people around the country today working in other areas who would have been professional footballers if they had just happened to have been born somewhere where the game is played more.

Just to put my own example on this - I grew up in a part of Ireland where hardly anyone played football. To the point where it was basically frowned upon to do so. You played GAA and that was it. As an adult I moved somewhere else (Glasgow) where football was the main sport and started playing regularly for the first time. Turns out, after playing catch up for a couple of years, I was actually a fairly handy football player despite being a very average gaelic player, I just never knew it before because I hadn't played other than a bit in the school yard.

I'm not saying I could have personally been a pro had I been born somewhere else or anything like that, but I knew loads of lads growing up who were generally better than me at sport, but only ever played GAA to a serious level. Without question potential professional footballers are lost in a situation like that. For that reason the failure of football to really break into GAA dominated parts of the country really does limit our playing pool.