Martin O'Neill and Roy Keane

[geysir]

One step at a time. It is a BIG target to qualify. We can worry about doing well against the big teams afterwards.

Once upon a time it was a big target, now it's just a target which has been made a lot easier, it would be a big failure to miss this target.
Under this criteria we would have even qualified with Stan for Euro 2008, 7 qual groups, top 3 go through. Think about that one before claiming this to be a BIG target.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Only the best 3rd place team...play-offs for us at best.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Euro_2016

[Stuttgart88]

There's that and the fact Scotland/Alba are playing like a team. Was very impressed with their approach to the game I went to. Not the greatest players, but looked very cohesive and generally acquitted themselves well within their (& WGS's) 'system'.

Regardless of what we think and our fanciful selections, do MO'N/RMK even know their strongest team? Not entirely their fault, but I doubt it. And even more so, unlikely this 'ideal' team have even ever played together...

Were you impressed by the Irish performance at the same venue a few days later? Probably the most like for like?

In hindsight though, I'd almost have preferred if Monkeano had used a smaller group of players in early summer and used the 3 weeks to get ideas across. Although the tour probably ruled several players out of serious contention, a bit of foresight and conviction might have done this anyway.

Still, Oman, Georgia (not a gimme, I accept) and Gibraltar are still to be played before the first crunch games. By then we should be much further down the road.

[geysir]

Only the best 3rd place team...play-offs for us at best.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Euro_2016

Maybe I have to spell it out more clearly
In 2008 Euro qualifiers there were 7 groups, we finished a clear 3rd. That makes 21 teams, 2 hosts, and there would have been one play off (as there was in 1996) to find the last team. In a 24 team Euros in 2008, we would have qualified with Stan at the helm.
Nowadays, what Stan dismally managed to achieve has become a difficult big target.

My point is simple, qualification is just a target, not a big target not the be all and end all, but missing the target would be a big failure. Nevertheless, we could conceivably qualify for Euro 2016 and still retain most aspects of our current dysfunctions.

[jbyrne]

Once upon a time it was a big target, now it's just a target which has been made a lot easier, it would be a big failure to miss this target.
Under this criteria we would have even qualified with Stan for Euro 2008, 7 qual groups, top 3 go through. Think about that one before claiming this to be a BIG target.

disaster as stans only campaign was we still managed 8 points at home against czech rep, germany, slovakia and wales. would very gladly take a similar return from our home matches against germany, poland, scotland and georgia this time.

[Fixer82]

WC02: two decent (although the German appraisal has become a bit revisionist - Germany wasted a hatful of chances), one good and one really ballsy performance (Spain). We actually scored a few goals for a change.

Come on now, we had a few chances ourselves. Kahn was on fire that day.
I remember Kinsella having a great game that day

[ArdeeBhoy]

Agreed jb!!

Were you impressed by the Irish performance at the same venue a few days later? Probably the most like for like?

In hindsight though, I'd almost have preferred if Monkeano had used a smaller group of players in early summer and used the 3 weeks to get ideas across. Although the tour probably ruled several players out of serious contention, a bit of foresight and conviction might have done this anyway.

Still, Oman, Georgia (not a gimme, I accept) and Gibraltar are still to be played before the first crunch games. By then we should be much further down the road.

We played quite well, but look at that Italian score in the context of the WC, ultimately they were v.underwhelming and my Italian pal will talk for hours about how much he despised Prandelli...
Scotland are no world-beaters for sure but their team has momentum and they are getting results. In general we aren't.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Maybe I have to spell it out more clearly
In 2008 Euro qualifiers there were 7 groups, we finished a clear 3rd. That makes 21 teams, 2 hosts, and there would have been one play off (as there was in 1996) to find the last team. In a 24 team Euros in 2008, we would have qualified with Stan at the helm.
Nowadays, what Stan dismally managed to achieve has become a difficult big target.

One slight problem;there weren't 24 qualifiers in Euro'08...

[Stuttgart88]

Agreed jb!!



We played quite well, but look at that Italian score in the context of the WC, ultimately they were v.underwhelming and my Italian pal will talk for hours about how much he despised Prandelli...
Scotland are no world-beaters for sure but their team has momentum and they are getting results. In general we aren't.

Scotland drew 2-2 with a Nigeria team that were being paid to lose

[back of the net]

Looks like USA are coming to Lansdowne road on November 18th

[Stuttgart88]

Come on now, we had a few chances ourselves. Kahn was on fire that day.
I remember Kinsella having a great game that day

I thought we were good in the first half especially after they scored.

When we played Germany at home under Trap I was in Slattery's early and they were showing the Ibaraki game in full. The second half was peppered with incidents of Germany ballsing up presentable chances. One in particular where a Shay and Breen hesitated between them to allow Jacker a great chance which he fluffed. Another ( or was it the same chance?) was when Jacker had a simple chance to lob Shay who was in no man's land but fluffed it. Germany could have won that game 3-0 even though we played well for long periods, especially in immediate response to Klose's goal.

It wasn't how I remembered the game but seeing it again on telly without the emotion and tension changed my view of it. Our first chance in the second half was about two minutes before we scored, Kahn making a good block from Keane, at close range.

[jbyrne]

we well well deserved that draw against germany in 02. i turned to the person beside me in the stand 2 mins before we scored and we both agreed if there was any justice we would get the equaliser.

here are the basic stats for what its worth:

Corners (1st half)
G 0
I 1
Corners (2nd half)
G 2
I 1
Fouls committed
G 18
I 21
Shots on target
G 6
I 5
Shots Off Target
G 7
I 6
Caught Offside
G 5
I 4

[Fixer82]

The second half was peppered with incidents of Germany ballsing up presentable chances. One in particular where a Shay and Breen hesitated between them to allow Jacker a great chance which he fluffed. Another ( or was it the same chance?) was when Jacker had a simple chance to lob Shay who was in no man's land but fluffed it.

I think it was the same chance. Jancker was useless in that tournament.

i remember Matt Holland almost scoring a carbon copy of his Cameroon goal in the first half

[Stuttgart88]

Jb, if there was a stat for near calamitous defensive ****-ups too, we'd have probably out scored Germany by at least one, maybe two!

I'm just saying that on at least one occasion (fixer, wasn't there one where they messed up a simple three on two?) they could have put the game to bed despite how well we responded to their goal. Goals change games as we all know. Had David Silva taken a routine chance against Holland there'd have been no 5-1 thrashing. Similarly, had England been fairly awarded a stonewall penalty when Moran fouled Waddle in Cagliari our WC90 adventure would have been over before it started.

I'm only trying to make the point that at times we have stunk the place out just as much, if not more, than we have actually done anything of note at finals, even though on balance we have done quite well at tournaments. I think across all four games our WC02 performance was the best of our three WCs, including the game in Ibaraki.

Why do I want to make that point? Because there are some here going way OTT about how bad we were in Euro 2012 - or more importantly, what it means - and how we'd do in another finals if we got there. I think it's unrealistic to expect a small country like us to ever do well unless we also get a sizeable rub of the green on top of playing well. Even without playing well, rub of the green can go a long way as it did in 1990.

None of this is to say that we should just hope for the best. Without proper structures in place in all aspects of our game we are simply preparing to fail, as others have put it. At the very least we should be aiming to be competitive. Let the luck follow.

[jbyrne]

I'm just saying that on at least one occasion (fixer, wasn't there one where they messed up a simple three on two?) they could have put the game to bed despite how well we responded to their goal. Goals change games as we all know. Had David Silva taken a routine chance against Holland there'd have been no 5-1 thrashing. Similarly, had England been fairly awarded a stonewall penalty when Moran fouled Waddle in Cagliari our WC90 adventure would have been over before it started.

of course. and if the ref had given us the stone wall aldridge (and/or galvin?) pen v USSR in euro 88 we may have gone to the semis. but i agree with your point

I'm only trying to make the point that at times we have stunk the place out just as much, if not more, than we have actually done anything of note at finals, even though on balance we have done quite well at tournaments. I think across all four games our WC02 performance was the best of our three WCs, including the game in Ibaraki.

agree 2002 was our best wc performance

Why do I want to make that point? Because there are some here going way OTT about how bad we were in Euro 2012 - or more importantly, what it means - and how we'd do in another finals if we got there. I think it's unrealistic to expect a small country like us to ever do well unless we also get a sizeable rub of the green on top of playing well. Even without playing well, rub of the green can go a long way as it did in 1990.

have always taken this line and got savage abuse for it at times!