Player eligibility row

[ArdeeBhoy]

Spot on, Danny.

The only downside will be GR's doubtless uber long-winded and pompous response....

And based on the initial 'response' below, witless besides of course, being geographically challenged!

[Gather round]

The only downside will be GR's doubtless uber long-winded and pompous response....

Up yer bum, English Bhoy.

[geysir]

Whatever you think the GFA allows for is irrelevant- I don't need it to be Irish. I was Irish for decades before the GFA was a twinkle in Mo Mowlam 's eye. How many times?
-------
Yes- I'm British and I'm Irish too. Yippee!

A constitution does not make people feel something that they are already.
The relevance of the constitution is that it recognises and legally guarantees the validity of the identities. The relevance of the GFA is that the identities are cemented with the principle of dual full citizenship from birth in the North, established as a fundamental constitutional right in the North and democratically accepted as so by the voters in the North.
Another relevance of the GFA is that the citizenship laws were changed in the South and are applied equally over the whole Island.
In other words, an established legal and social harmony with FIFA eligibility statute 15.

[Den Perry]

Fair dues to youse posters you sure like an argument (Ye could argue for Ireland)

Or argue for Britain...or both Ireland and Britain....

[Lionel Ritchie]

Any idea what time we'll have some white smoke? Incidently, might just be lazy reporting but, a few articles I've been scanning start with something along the lines of. "IFA officials travel to Lausanne today..." "Daniel Kearns travels to Lausanne today..." etc. Unless this thing is on after lunch -shoudn't they have travelled yesterday? Otherwise I do hope someone brought a flask of tea and some corn beef sandwiches ...though I doubt that many Clare folk work for the IFA.

[awec]

I've never had a problem at either ground but both are located in less affluent areas of Belfast. It wouldn't stop me going to either ground for a game I wanted to see
but I'd be less likely to go on a whim. I've parked at both without a problem. For either I'd arrive really early and park right at the gate. There are areas near quite
a few LoI grounds where I'd be reluctant to park too.

For Windsor I can turn off the Motorway, go up the Lisburn Road and park on leafy Windsor Avenue where anyone would have a better class of car than mine to steal/damage.

By sheer coincidence I was just talking to a friend tonight and a mutual friend of ours was meant to go to Cliftonville v FC United yesterday but decided not to for fear his car would
be stolen/damaged.

Cliftonville were playing at Donegal Celtics ground, which is right beside Lenadoon.

I wouldn't go into Lenadoon with a squad of Marines ffs.

I've never had a problem parking at any IL grounds, but Donegal Celtic is one I would never drive to.

[Gather round]

I have a feeling that Rowan wants to come across as 'even-handed' to both sets of supporters and his poorly researched, spurious assertions do not help his case whatsoever

What irritates me about much of the hysteria on OWC is this assumption that, should we lose a few players, the team will wither away. Rowan seems to be drawing on it. There are plenty of European countries with a smaller playing pool than even purely unionist NI. And they do OK.

Good man, delighted to have you on side

My pleasure, although of course I've always been onside. I've always been from Northern Ireland and thus Irish.

I think you're mistaken or else my understanding of the application of Irish citizenship law throughout the whole island is incorrect

We're both right, I think, if slightly at cross-purposes. I said "it looks odd that the Republic will happily offer citizenship to pretty much everyone in NI, but won't automatically do so for everyone born in the South". I was distinguishing between people like me (lifelong Irish, eligible for but uninterested in a RoI passport), and kids born in the South to parents determined to make a life there. Who won't be eligible. Of course I accept that kids born in NI to non-Irish parents may not be eligible either.

Thanks for the link to the Chen case.

In such an instance, Irish citizenship can be conferred by the Minister for Justice, or possibly it has automatic application from birth; not completely certain

If the latter, that does reassure my concern, thanks.

Pretty much every act and declaration by the British government in the recent contemporary past, bar voluntarily relinquishing the union with Northern Ireland, has more or less vindicated the notion that a united Ireland is a perfectly legitimate aspiration

Pretty much qualified there, Danny. Everything trivial contradicted by the one thing that's important, basically. Of course it's a perfectly legitimate aspiration, like Shay Given or Aaron Hughes lifting the cup at Euro 2012. But it isn't realistically going to happen.

Northern Ireland certainly is no longer considered an intrinsic constituent part of the UK like, say, England or Scotland are - if it ever was at all, always having been a bit of a constitutional anomaly within the UK - and a legal pathway is in place for its departing from the union

It had 50 years of devolution/ autononomy, then 30 of ongoing violence. The latter would probably have had a 'place apart' effect even if the former hadn't happened. Now, we've got devolution again- and the Scots and Welsh have it too. Theoretically, Scotland could vote itself out of the union in the near future. We all know this is very unlikely to happen. Voters will happily elect the SNP to Holyrood, then drop them in every Westminster election. The legal pathway you mention will only be relevant if nationalists

a) get significantly more than 50% in an election (or pass the threshold in two or three). Getting 50.1% in one poll not enough, as it might easily fall to 49.9% weeks or months later

b) persuade the South to take you on. Bit of a leap that, when they've been standing by for decades without actually doing anything about it. If they had, Derry Cityside or Newry could have been in the Republic decades ago

c) get enthusistic, unquestioning agreement from unionists. Instead of, say, a suggestion to limited re-partition.

I mean, telling an Irish national that he shouldn't be allowed to represent his country in the sporting sphere is kind of denying him his national identity

If FIFA replaced their grandparentage rule with one only referring parents, it would have a similar effect. Plenty of proud RoI and NI internationals wouldn't have been allowed to play, but who says that would have denied them any part of their proud patriotism? Similarly Pat Jennings, Martin O'Neill, Alan Kernaghan weren't any less able to enjoy their identity simply by playing for an international side that wouldn't ncessarily have been their first choice. So I think you're exaggerating a bit, although admittedly the aggressive atitude taken by the IFA and many NI fans may go some way to explain this.

If I wanted to be picky, I could point out that Irish nationality entitles those living outside the state in possession of it to an Irish passport - and those rights that come with possessing a passport - as well as diplomatic support from Irish embassies or consulates abroad. So, something of substance at least beyond symbolic recognition

No need to be picky. My point was that providing those documents, rights and support costs very little. My parents worked for the Brit Foreign Office abroad for years and providing consular support to tourists who'd lost their passports or money was a very minor sideline. Following directly from that, offering the service doesn't cost much more for six million people in Ireland than it does for four. Why doesn't the Dublin government give the passport-holders a vote too for a small fee: then we could have an interesting battle for the last seat in Diaspora North-east...

Beyond the morality of the partition of Ireland, I think it's clear that, while 'ArdeeBhoy' might be using "gerrymandering" in a technically incorrect context, he's treating it as being synonymous with the idea of manufacturing a state - like how an electoral boundary might be manipulated to favour a certain group over another - as big as it possibly could have been while at the same time ensuring a secure population bias in favour of as many Irish unionists as possible for the foreseeable future

Broadly agreed. Of course there was gerrymandering as precisely defined in NI anyway (eg in Derry). You can see how the name got applied retrospectively to partition of the island as a whole. And why many people on the more moderate branches of nationalism use it as AB does.

Any bigger and the population balance would have been tipped in favour of nationalists/Catholics; any smaller and it would have struggled to sustain itself and left a lot more disgruntled unionists

Disagree with the latter point. Although I recognise the need at the time to placate disgruntled unionists as well as nationalists, Northern Ireland could have survived perfectly well with a smaller population and geographical area. Luxembourg manages well; Cyprus managed yet another partition despite being much smaller than NI, let alone Ireland as a whole. Not least because NI retained the security of still forming part of the much bigger Britain.

[Gather round]

The relevance of the constitution is that it recognises and legally guarantees the validity of the identities. The relevance of the GFA is that the identities are cemented with the principle of dual full citizenship from birth in the North, established as a fundamental constitutional right in the North and democratically accepted as so by the voters in the North. Another relevance of the GFA is that the citizenship laws were changed in the South and are applied equally over the whole Island. In other words, an established legal and social harmony with FIFA eligibility statute 15

I recognise the importance of the GFA, it's just rather less relevant- irrelevant- to my identity than others'.

[co. down green]

Cliftonville were playing at Donegal Celtics ground, which is right beside Lenadoon.

I wouldn't go into Lenadoon with a squad of Marines ffs.

The hundreds of FC United fans over from England seemed to have a great day out at the DC's Suffolk Road ground

[Wolfie]

By referring to your team as "Ireland", you are having a dig at my team, therefore me. For whilst I normally accept the (incorrect but) casual use of "Ireland" on threads like these when referring to the FAI team generally, when it is placed directly alongside the NI team, it is quite simply wrong (and irritating).

Not my choice of title; if you want to know whose it was, perhaps you might take another look at whose website it was I quoted? After all, when it comes to the issue of nomenclature etc, I've seen ROI fans on here refusing to recognise the authority of FIFA; now it seems you are reluctant even to accept that of your own Association...

Not particularly, no. Afaiaa, it was the SFA who objected most strongly to that suggested title.

Seeing as it is actually easier, quicker and more correct to post "ROI" (and NI), it is arguably you who is being pedantic, by insisting on "Ireland". (I'll put the Celtic Cup reference down to ignorance/laziness)

A delayed response to this as I was unfortunately due back on planet earth for a while.

Firstly, I'll refer to "Ireland" as much and as often as I like, whether we are playing Northern Ireland or otherwise. No Ireland fans refer to themsleves as "ROI". We are identified by countries fans the world over as Ireland. If this irritates you - get a life. I'm not going to abandon what I call my country - just to comply with your specific world view.

I was not having a dig at you or your team in my original post - any offence taken could be put down to paranoia, ignorance/laziness on your part.

Who really gives a f*ck what the tournament is called anyway?? You obviously knew what I was referring to. Why get hung up on overly officious titles of tournaments when it was apparent what I was talking about???

[gspain]

Cliftonville were playing at Donegal Celtics ground, which is right beside Lenadoon.

I wouldn't go into Lenadoon with a squad of Marines ffs.

I've never had a problem parking at any IL grounds, but Donegal Celtic is one I would never drive to.

Didn't realise it wasn't in Solitude. Although I suspect you'd be safer going to DC without a squad of marines than with one.

I actually did drive there in 1990 when we played DC in a pre-season friendly. Left the car there overnight as well having
stayed in the Social Club until closing time (which was sometime after it got bright the following morning).

[Gather round]

Heh. As you probably know, a lot of us up here think as EG does, although we wouldn't be brave enough to make an issue of it on foot.ie. That is, we just get mildly irritated at people equating the Republic with all of Ireland. It's pretty similar to others saying 'England' when they mean 'Britain'. In most cases it's just common use and no wind-up is intended, but there you go.

Echoing Wolfie's point, in most of the rest of the World it's just Ireland. The more so since Northern Ireland isn't a Worldwide news story any more. But of course you do something because it suits you, not dependent on what foreigners think. But recently, on another board, Wolfie's point was made by a Belgian guy. He lives in Nivelles, a suburban town near Brussels. An area in which many cities and villages- and even some streets in central Brussels- have two or three names.

Without wanting to lapse too far into whataboutery, earlier in the thread I found myself typing 'Home Internationals', before correcting. Clearly that would be seen as a wind-up, ditto the 'British Lions' in rugby union. And at least one prominent poster on this thread gets annoyed at references to 'the South', even though he must realise it's widely used in Northern Ireland.

[Charlie Darwin]

I like to think of it like Virginia and West Virginia. The original state got to keep its name and the breakaway territory adopted a qualifier.

[Gather round]

I like to think of it like Virginia and West Virginia. The original state got to keep its name and the breakaway territory adopted a qualifier

Aye, like the Irish League and the LoI.

[The Fly]

Any idea what time we'll have some white smoke?

...don't use that phrase on this thread!