Andy Reid's exclusion

[Stuttgart88]

Both The Indo and the Times pick this as the main talking point this morning.

From the Indo:

The boss confirmed the suspicions that if Duff and McGeady are to be accommodated on the wings, then the two men in the centre of the park needed to conform to the type of style he looks for in that formation.

Essentially, Whelan and Steven Reid are the men he trusts in a battle, with Andy Reid the man for a more refined encounter.

You can't imagine filing the games with fired up Georgia and Montenegro under that heading.

"We have enough offensive players," he said when initially responding to a query about the strengths of Whelan.

"There, we have Duff, McGeady, Keane and Doyle. In midfield, we have Whelan, Reid [Steven], Miller and Potter.

"We need them because we have enough offensive players. I have already answered the question about what Andy can do for me.

"It's about balance. I saw many, many times before here that Andy is a good player.

"But if I decide to play Andy in a game, maybe it would be with one striker. That's my opinion.

"At the moment, I look forward to building a big strong team with spirit but every game is different.

"The Nordic game is about strength but against one of the Latin sides it's possible to play a Latin game, like against the Portuguese. That is my experience."

The inference from that, which will trouble Reid, is that he still isn't viewed as man to take with you into the trenches.

It's 12 months since he suffered the ignominy of sitting on the bench for the Euro 2008 qualifier with Slovakia, while debutant Darron Gibson and the distinctly average Jonathan Douglas were summoned first.

Steve Staunton qualified that by saying he felt the pitch was too heavy for the Dubliner. Worryingly for the 26-year-old, Trapattoni's comments hint at a similar conclusion, a stereotype that will grate with him as his workrate at Sunderland has markedly improved since his move there in January.

Such tenacity has endeared him to the fans and, obviously Roy Keane, who handed him the armband last Saturday.

One marked difference under Trap is that at least he goes into detail describing his thinking.

Under Stan you'd have got "you tell me". A major complaint about the last few years was that we were in the dark about managers' opinions on certain players. Inclusions and omissions were never explained (one wondered if the hacks even saw fit to ask). I've certainly no complaints in this regard now.

I can agree with Trap's logic, except I can't for the life of me see Miller as a guy who can play a defensive midfield role.

[Stuttgart88]

Here's how the Times described the same, adding that Duff & McGeady can't be counted upon for goals. I also liked the comment about the players needing to be smarter.

The coach suggested once again that the side that started on Wednesday night had contained "90 per cent" of the players likely to start next time out, on September 6th.

But if Andy Reid left for England yesterday morning believing he might be the man most likely to benefit from a change to the XI, Trapattoni had bad news for the Sunderland midfielder.

"I've said already that we have enough offensive players," he said when asked about the 26-year-old's failure even to get on during the second half at the Ullevaal Stadium.

"The team also needs a midfield with players like (Glenn) Whelan, like Steven Reid. We also have Liam Miller and Darren Potter."

Whelan, he said, had been, "very strong" against the Norwegians and it appears that the Stoke City player may have done enough this week to cement his place alongside Steven Reid in the starting line-up for next month's qualifiers.

Starting with the more creative Andy Reid, concluded Trapattoni, would require a broader tactical reorganisation.

"He is a very skilful player," said the coach, "with very specific characteristics, but with him in the side we could play with only one striker.

"Depending on the game, sure, you can play with just one striker. There are teams like that in Italy but they score goals from the left side and the right. But at the moment we don't have so many players who can score goals - (apart from) Doyle and Keane.

"These days," he continued, "there isn't a team that plays with players like (Aiden) McGeady, (Kevin) Doyle, (Robbie) Keane, (Damien) Duff and Andy Reid. It needs balance.

"Andy can still be an important player for us, though. It is a long campaign and we will play a lot of games over more than one year."

The coach's assessment will come as a major blow to a player who looked to have come of age on the international front last October with his display in central midfield against Germany.

And having captained Sunderland against Liverpool last Saturday, Reid seemed confident about his international future prior to departing with the squad for Oslo. At that stage he restated his preference for playing in central midfield but said he would want to "talk my way out of getting a game on the wing".

Trapattoni, though, more or less discounted that possibility yesterday, observing that he had seen the Dubliner play out wide but "his position is not on the line".

Overall, Trapattoni concluded that the team continues to make progress, though the players must, among other things, exert more control over the tempo of games.

"We have to improve again," he said. "With more experience we can learn to slow the pace of the game. At 1-0 ahead (in Oslo) the players were immediately trying to take quick throw-ins and free kicks like a typical English team. But strong teams choose the right moments (to play quickly). We have to become smarter."

[Wolfie]

Starting with the more creative Andy Reid, concluded Trapattoni, would require a broader tactical reorganisation.

"He is a very skilful player," said the coach, "with very specific characteristics, but with him in the side we could play with only one striker.

"Depending on the game, sure, you can play with just one striker. There are teams like that in Italy but they score goals from the left side and the right. But at the moment we don't have so many players who can score goals - (apart from) Doyle and Keane.[/I]


Andy Reid is no Stephen Ireland.

It did occur to me that Trapp's quote above possibly explained his reluctance to rule outs Stephen Irelands return completely........................

[tetsujin1979]

But failing that, 5-man midfield with Doyle sacrificed anyone? Though probably too late to be trying something like that.If we did play a 5-man midfield, it would mean Robbie Keane acting like a target man, which he clearly isn't. The 5-man midfield only really works when you have someone like Drogba to aim at, someone who can win the ball in the air, hold up play, as well as score

[NeilMcD]

Its funny the only time I remember Reid playing that role for us was away to France when Morrisson was injured and he came on and played well. Brian Kerr did not play Reid too much in the middle either and seemed to play him on the wing a lot. I agree with Stutts thought that it is refreshing to at least have a manager who explains his decisions and you can see the logic and the footballing brain thinking.

[irishfan86]

I understand what Trap is saying, but I disagree. I honestly think the Reid/Reid partnership could be potent. Imagine those two against Georgia- we'd literally play them off the park.

I haven't seen a tonne of Whelan, but he basically seems to be a younger version of Carsley. That isn't a bad thing, he has a role to play for us, but I'd rather Andy in there with Reid as the holding player.

I'm sure Andy will have a role to play for us in this campaign eventually- I just hope Trap has the capability to adapt his views on a player. For me Andy's best position isn't behind the striker, but rather as a deep lying playmaker. Maybe if Trap catches a few Sunderland matches he'll change his mind.

[Wheels]

Another aspect in Andy's favour is his dead-ball potency... A free-kick around the box and he's deadly; nobody knew what to do with the chance on Wednesday.

And if Trap says we don't have too many players who can score goals... well, Andy ticks that box too.

Maybe we can get Roy to have a word with him?

[geysir]

The biggest winner out of all this is Glenn Whelan, I wonder how much all this will add to his game. His head, as in self confidence, must have grown a good bit.

[Reality Bites]

Unless Injuries to Duff and McGeady, you can forget about seeing much of Andy Reid in this campaign, Its the first time we have seen controversy like this since Jack Charlton opted to exclude Brady and play to our strengths, and the rest they say is History.
I always get a great kick out reading the threads on this forum from various posters who think they know more about tactics than the manager - I'd love to see Irishfan86 coaching CV it must be good if he understands what Trap is saying but has the audacity to disagree - you just can't buy confidence like that:D

[bawn79]

If we look at the last campaign and the number of times both Duff and McGeady were fit, i would think that Andy Reid will probably play quiet a bit.

So I presume at the moment it is two of three from those for the two wing places. At least I hope it is anyway.

Personally Id go will A. Reid and Duff.

[Wheels]

Another worrying aspect of this is what it means for James McCarthy... will he be thought 'too creative' as well??

[Stuttgart88]

I think Doyle's place may be at risk in the near term. I also think we may have to ditch our traditional 2 wide men system and play a bit narrower (4-2-3-1) with the full backs adding width where necessary. I don't think Trappatoni has ruled out Reid at all, nor Carsley. The onus is certainly on them to play their way in but no harm in having competition.

The only inconsistency I've seen in Trap's approach has been not picking Delaney at LB in Norway. He seems to have favoured those who impressed in May. If the conditions had stayed firm on wednesday I'd have expected Keogh or even Andy Reid to have come on instead of Murphy in second half.

[Stuttgart88]

Another worrying aspect of this is what it means for James McCarthy... will he be thought 'too creative' as well??Is he a creative player? i've yet to see him but I get the impression that he's more of a Keane type midfilder. I wouldn't be worried at all, especially as he's so young anyway.

There is room for creativity in the team, just not too much of it! The first half on Wednesday was the most balanced, orthodox and cohesive I've seen us play since the first 30 mins in Paris on 2004 so I think it's a bit "Irish" to only focus on the debatable negatives.

[shakermaker1982]

Andy Reid very rarely has a bad game for us. When he's brought into the team he enhances our play and was brilliant against the Germans. If anything when fit he's our most consistent player. It must really irk him that Miller and Whelan are ahead of him in the pecking order. McGeady? Another average game for us and his place looks safe if I'm interpretating the Trap's comments correctly. Stephen Reid could easily play the holding midfielder role but with the added potency of being able to zip the ball around. This policy of '6 defensive minded players' and '4 attacking players' puts a lot of pressure on Keane, Duff, McGeady and Doyle. I thought we lacked Reid's vision Wednesday night - I really hope he can force his way back into the mix.

[Wheels]

Is he a creative player? i've yet to see him but I get the impression that he's more of a Keane type midfilder.

He seems to be more akin to Gerrard... but early days as you say.



I think it's a bit "Irish" to only focus on the debatable negatives.

It's hard to discuss the 'undebatable' ones :)

[zenokelly]

The peculiar thing about this is that the player that you can count on making the decisive final tackles and tracking back, and who is in no sense attacking was left out of the squad, Lee Carsley. I'd have him in there ahead of Whelan if Reid is not going to be picked and possesses more physicality. Bemusing in every sense of the word, but Trap knows a lot more than me.

[Stuttgart88]

I have to say I was astonished how poor Carsley's distribution was against Brazil. Whelan is more composed on the ball, Carsley more aggressive in the tackle.

Our ball retention for most of the first half was the best it's been for a long time and I felt our CM had a presence about it that it's been lacking for ages.

Whelan was given a chance and he took it in fairness. Put it this way, I think I'd prefer S. Reid & Whelan than Carsley and Andy Reid, despite a good showing by the latter two against Germany. Steven Reid is the key for me. Great to have him back, though for me he and Andy Reid is the dream team.

[bobloblaw]

Has to be in the team. Our most creative talent, by a long way. So drop Doyle and play Andy in a three man midfield. Easy.

Even playing him on the wing would be a poor decision, get him in the middle pulling the strings.

[lionelhutz]

Has to be in the team. Our most creative talent, by a long way. So drop Doyle and play Andy in a three man midfield. Easy.

Even playing him on the wing would be a poor decision, get him in the middle pulling the strings.

I think the problem with this is that Keane isn't really suited to the lone front man role - he's much better working off another striker. So if we're to get the best from Keane, I think we do need a physically strong partner for him.

My thinking is that Murphy is more suited as a partner for Keane than Doyle - Doyle has been off form for a while now and he doesn't link up well with Keane. Murphy is more physical than Doyle and seems to get involved more.

I definitely believe A. Reid has to be in the team. If Trap wants four "attack" minded players, I'd drop McGeady, start Hunt on the left and drop Whelan and start Reid in the middle. So the following would be your startin 11 which I think would suit Trap's style;

Given

Finnan Dunne McShane Kilbane

Duff S. Reid A. Reid Hunt

Murphy Keane

[bobloblaw]

I think the problem with this is that Keane isn't really suited to the lone front man role - he's much better working off another striker. So if we're to get the best from Keane, I think we do need a physically strong partner for him.

If you've got lemons, make lemonade. :)

Seriously though, personally I'd go with the two Reids in the middle, but if Trap doesn't think that midfield is combative enough then you have to look for alternatives and I'd do all i could to get Andy in the team. Plus its not as if Keane and Doyle have ever really hit it off. And when you look at how we were knocking it about at times in the first half against Norway then i don't see the little n' large combination up front being a necessity. If we could get A. Reid, Keane, and the two wingers mixing it up in the final third we'll have more joy imo.

[eirebhoy]

I think the problem with this is that Keane isn't really suited to the lone front man role - he's much better working off another striker. So if we're to get the best from Keane, I think we do need a physically strong partner for him.

My thinking is that Murphy is more suited as a partner for Keane than Doyle - Doyle has been off form for a while now and he doesn't link up well with Keane. Murphy is more physical than Doyle and seems to get involved more.

Slovakia at home showed that Doyle is more than capable of filling that role. He played the lone striker role and was superb. And that was being man marked by Skrtel who most of us would know a lot more about now. A few comments from that post match thread:

"Doyle showed how to play the lone striker role, fantastic game."

"Doyle showed how a cental striker should perform..."

"Doyle playing the lone striker role perfectly"

"luckily in Doyle we've a striker thats good in the air and has a great ability to hold play up"

"Brilliant, a real centre forward. Scored, created chances, held the ball up well to allow Duff and McGeady to get up and won plenty of ball of their defenders."

"Thought Doyle led the line brilliantly - took the clatters the opposition dished out and laid the ball off intelligently. Took his goal very well."


He's a much better player than Murphy. He's even better in the air imo. We're not going to be playing a long ball game so the most important thing is that the striker is good at holding up the ball and latching onto through balls. I think Doyle's a really underrated player tbh.

[irishultra]

Just watching Doyle now, his all round game is very good but you can see he's not confident in front of goal. He needs to get more hungary and try to get into posions more.

Just missed a peno.:(

[NeilMcD]

Kevin Doyle has improved every time he has stepped up a level and I think he now needs to step up another level so I think a move for him would be great. I think he would do really well at Villa too with good fast wingers beside him like Young and Abon...... I think Eirebhoy is dead right too that he can play the lone striker role and I do think if Robbie Keane was ever injured that Andy Reid would be perfect for the role behind Doyle.

[Noelys Guitar]

Reid has been excellent first half against spurs. Brady and Tardelli are at the match.

[NeilMcD]

Where you watching that Noely

[Noelys Guitar]

Where you watching that Noely

Foxsoccer. You can get it online Neil (dodgy channel land).Reid tired a bit after spurs scored and then got a second wind. Made a great defensive tackle on Modric late on . Miller came on for Reid last 4 mins. Very impressed with Reid today. I was watching the game in Trap mode ie trying to see how Reid would fit into Trap's plans. The late saving tackle on Modric and his overall defensive play suggest to me Reid should be in ahead of Whelan on this display. 8/10 performance.

[irishultra]

Great news on Reid. Hopefully they give a good report on him and Trap trusts Andy in midfield although his hand might be dealt with an injury to Duffer.

[shakermaker1982]

good to hear Reidy having a blinder today. Looking forward to watching the game on MOTD + Given's penalty save.

[Noelys Guitar]

good to hear Reidy having a blinder today. Looking forward to watching the game on MOTD + Given's penalty save.

Look out for Murphy's cross to Cisse for Sunderland's second goal. Pure class. Murphy is a bit of an enigma. Can't get off the ground to head the ball. Is no target man. But put him out on the left wing and he will supply 3 or 4 world class crosses a game (without getting to the end line).

[lionelhutz]

Slovakia at home showed that Doyle is more than capable of filling that role. He played the lone striker role and was superb. And that was being man marked by Skrtel who most of us would know a lot more about now. A few comments from that post match thread:

"Doyle showed how to play the lone striker role, fantastic game."

"Doyle showed how a cental striker should perform..."

"Doyle playing the lone striker role perfectly"

"luckily in Doyle we've a striker thats good in the air and has a great ability to hold play up"

"Brilliant, a real centre forward. Scored, created chances, held the ball up well to allow Duff and McGeady to get up and won plenty of ball of their defenders."

"Thought Doyle led the line brilliantly - took the clatters the opposition dished out and laid the ball off intelligently. Took his goal very well."


He's a much better player than Murphy. He's even better in the air imo. We're not going to be playing a long ball game so the most important thing is that the striker is good at holding up the ball and latching onto through balls. I think Doyle's a really underrated player tbh.

I agree but I still believe Keane has to play. I think Doyle is excellent working as a lone striker but what about his partnership with Keane. I don't think it's ever sparked into life in a meaningful game. Plus Doyle seems a little short of confidence at the moment and I'd like to see how Murphy would do alongside Keane.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see Doyle go to Villa and start playing like he was the season before last. Then there's no question he would be a better option than Murphy and the Keane/Doyle partnership should be worked on extensively on the training ground. But the reality is he's been off form for over a year now and Murphy should be given his chance.

[DmanDmythDledge]

If we did play a 5-man midfield, it would mean Robbie Keane acting like a target man, which he clearly isn't. The 5-man midfield only really works when you have someone like Drogba to aim at, someone who can win the ball in the air, hold up play, as well as score
I think it could work.

With A. Reid and Whelan you have two players who are capable of playing in front of the back four. S. Reid would be box-to-box. With more protection in midfield the wingers would not have to track back as much and would be able to offer support to Keane. It would work very well on the counter- don't think it could be used against the top sides though...

[eirebhoy]

Reid was definitely my motm for Sunderland tonight. Was still working hard in extra time.

[musicinmouth]

yeah, he was brilliant tonight. he ran more than anyone on the pitch, played some great passes, slowed the game down when he needed to and he did a lot of great defensive work, breaking up play, being strong and making good tackles.

[tetsujin1979]

were any of the management team at it?

[Scram]

were any of the management team at it?

If they were, they weren't picked up on by the cameras, but then, the cameras generally only pick up on English management i.e Capello etc. (who does seem to go to a lot of games as should be expected)

Agree with Eirebhoy that Reid was excellent v Notts Forest...he was all ove the pitch in the first 10 minutes.

Compare to Liam Miller who was rubbish and gave the ball away like it was carrying a disease (Brady rates Miller highly as far as a I know which astounds me)

Andy Reid is the future and needs to be in the side. I thought Staunton was back when I saw the starting 11 v Norway :(

[eirebhoy]

Brady rates Miller highly as far as a I know which astounds me
If Brady had his way he'd build the team around Reid imo so I don't really think it makes too much difference who Brady rates. :)

[dr_peepee]

I like Andy Reid and think he should start for us... But if you have seen yesterdays performance against city you'll see why I don't want him playing deep alongside Steven Reid... His tackling made Paul Scholes look like Paul McGrath...

[Stuttgart88]

I like Andy Reid and think he should start for us... But if you have seen yesterdays performance against city you'll see why I don't want him playing deep alongside Steven Reid... His tackling made Paul Scholes look like Paul McGrath...
hear hear.

[tetsujin1979]

If we started with Reid & Reid, it would reverse the roles from Norway, i.e. Andy Reid in the Steven Reid creative role and Steven Reid in the Glen Whelan enforcer and ball winner role
Given that Trap is going to have two forced changes from that game (Kilbane and Duff), how willing would he be to make an unforced change? I keep thinking back to the Israel 2-2 game when Kerr made effectively 2 changes to the side by moving Duff up front, and bringing on Kavanagh, instead of just bringing on Elliott or Doherty for Robbie Keane. The unforced change there (moving Duff) completely unbalanced the side, and the rest is history.

[geysir]

If Trap follows on from what we have seen so far then he should be playing Hunt in place of Duff.
With Trap ready to play Miller instead of Stephen Reid in the Norway game there would appear to be no place atm for Andy Reid starting a game.

[shakermaker1982]

Hunt has to start and I'd keep him on the left. No point changing everything around for the sake of things. I cannot even see Reidy getting a run out unless we're 3 nil up.

[geysir]

Soon we will reach the nirvana of having a team that picks itself. :)

[Wheels]

Eleven-a-side are reporting that Trap is suggesting Keogh to fill in for Duff... But he then says THIS :eek::

“I started in this job with a particular system and I want to continue. We have good wide players - [Aiden] McGeady, Hunt, Keogh and Duff - they are a very important part of the team.”

So he doesn't see Andy Reid as a wide player... but we know from the last game that he doesn't see him as a possibility in the centre either... why is he bringing him along with the squad at all then??? :confused:

Maybe Andy is only seen as a possible for the just behind the lone striker position... ?? Where he's behind Keane... and Ireland if he comes back...

[smasher]

Hunt has to start and I'd keep him on the left. No point changing everything around for the sake of things. I cannot even see Reidy getting a run out unless we're 3 nil up. Totally agree. Well said!!

[Noelys Guitar]

If Trap's selections work ie we win both upcoming games then there is a possibility A.Reid will be a peripheral figure in this squad. According to Trap's comments yesteday Hunt, McGeady, Keogh and (Miller(previous Trap comments) are ahead of Reid if we play 2 upfront. I hope Trap knows what he's doing.

[eirebhoy]

The only thing that McGeady, Duff, Hunt and Keogh all have that Reid doesn't is a bit pace. I'm guessing Trap is thinking a lot about the counter attack and Reid just wouldn't be quick enough to get himself up the other end of the pitch after a period of defending.

[irishfan86]

The only thing that McGeady, Duff, Hunt and Keogh all have that Reid doesn't is a bit pace. I'm guessing Trap is thinking a lot about the counter attack and Reid just wouldn't be quick enough to get himself up the other end of the pitch after a period of defending.

If we're planning on counter-attacking against Georgia on neutral ground, this is going to be one long campaign.

This kind of fixture requires an attacking lineup- I'd go with a 4-4-2 with the two Reids in the middle.

Leaving Andy out against these weaker sides could be the difference between getting 1 point or all 3, as we really do lack creativity down the middle.

[FarBeag]

There should be a place found in the team for Andy Reid at any cost.He is one of the best players Ireland have.I think it will show how good Trap really is if he plays imo a weaker team against Georgia and wins the game.I really think he is leaving himself open for a lot of Criticism if he doesn’t. Lets hope he uses the best options.

[paul_oshea]

ya ye have to feel for andy reid.

[ruben_sosa]

The only thing that McGeady, Duff, Hunt and Keogh all have that Reid doesn't is a bit pace. I'm guessing Trap is thinking a lot about the counter attack and Reid just wouldn't be quick enough to get himself up the other end of the pitch after a period of defending.

morelikely it's about getting back down the pitch quickly, closing down players and chasing loose balls when we don't have posession, not getting up the pitch on the counter attack. Reid is a better play on the ball, but Hunt will work harder when we don't have it.