2day FM + Bertie

[sligoman]

I support the way it is now and probably won't always. Compare it to music, Timbaland is big at the moment. If I'm a big Timbaland fan and suddenly he goes down in a couple of years and I replace him with Kanye West, does that make me a glory hunter for not sticking with the same guy through thick and thin?Are you serious? You claim you support Bayern but yet say you probably won't always support them. This is hilarious, what sort of fan are you? Support them for now and then feck off in a few years:D.

btw, how exactly do you support them? Jersies? Season ticket? Have you ever been over to a game even? How many times? or do you support them by watching them on telly or just looking up the result online like most football "supporters" in this country?

[Mad Moose]

You're obliged to support your country as it represents the land you live in.

I hope not. I live in England. :D

[OneRedArmy]

No offence, but what age are most people around here?

I'm a soccer fan first, patriot second. I don't know what you're problem is, I support the team that I believe play the most attractive game and why shouldn't I?
And yes it is "glory hunting", now pray do tell what's wrong with that? I'm not from Munich, I don't have any loyalties to the club or their players, I support the way it is now and probably won't always. Compare it to music, Timbaland is big at the moment. If I'm a big Timbaland fan and suddenly he goes down in a couple of years and I replace him with Kanye West, does that make me a glory hunter for not sticking with the same guy through thick and thin? -_-
The whole one club support is such an old fashioned notion.You're not a fan, regardless of whether you describe yourself as one.

You're a consumer.

As long as you accept that then there's no problem with your views. Just don't expect to get any respect or validation in places like this for them.

You're posting in a forum where most members would view "dropping their team" in a similar way to dropping their family, eg unthinkable.

Unfortunately you just don't get what supporting a football team is all about and I pity you for that. You're missing out bigtime.

[DaveyCakes]

You're not a fan, regardless of whether you describe yourself as one.

You're a consumer.

As long as you accept that then there's no problem with your views. Just don't expect to get any respect or validation in places like this for them.

You're posting in a forum where most members would view "dropping their team" in a similar way to dropping their family, eg unthinkable.

Unfortunately you just don't get what supporting a football team is all about and I pity you for that. You're missing out bigtime.


Supporting a football team can mean many things to many people. Who put you in charge of telling everyone how to live their lives?

[OneRedArmy]

Well like I said that view of supporting a team is old fashioned. A team to me is a collection of players. In 10 years time the team you support will have a whole new set of players. So what exactly are you supporting? It isn't the players, it's just some romantic image of the club's flag and what they stand for. :rolleyes:

It's silly and dated.

And I've been to the Allianz Arena 3 times, the San Siro twice. Ironically I've never been to an Eircom League game. >_>

Sorry if that sucks to you but thats what young people are doing, on an average day I'll see people wearing Barca, Ac Milan, Brazil, Argentina and whatnot shirts. I don't think I've ever seen anyone wearing a Cork City shirt, heck you don't even see people wearing EPL shirts anymore.
We're Irish, we're the best so why shouldn't we support the best sports teams even if they're not our own. ^_^Ok Bertie.....

[Rocky77]

So what exactly are you supporting? It isn't the players, it's just some romantic image of the club's flag and what they stand for

If you'd seen the Longford Town players graft towards the end of the season you'd revise that opinion. But go on, dismiss me cos it's 'only' Longford Town. You wouldn't be the first.

If I was supporting players, I'd have spent a lot of time last season watching our alumni at Shamrock Rovers or Drogheda — both contenders. But I didn't, cos I support Longford Town.

[OneRedArmy]

Supporting a football team can mean many things to many people. Who put you in charge of telling everyone how to live their lives?I just gave my view on what I understand the term supporter to mean, which last time I checked was my prerogative.

[DaveyCakes]

I just gave my view on what I understand the term supporter to mean, which last time I checked was my prerogative.

You weren't giving your opinion, you were lecturing....

..and "Unfortunately you just don't get what supporting a football team is all about and I pity you for that"

...you condescending %^$£!

[osarusan]

Well like I said that view of supporting a team is old fashioned. A team to me is a collection of players. In 10 years time the team you support will have a whole new set of players. So what exactly are you supporting? It isn't the players, it's just some romantic image of the club's flag and what they stand for. :rolleyes:

It's silly and dated.

You could say the same thing for the national team, why do you support them? The players change, the managers change, and the team goes uphill and downhill once in a while. Are you supporting a romantic image of the flag and what it stands for?

Given your desire to support the best, why don't you support Brazil/Argentina/Italy? In fact Italy is best, you'll be able to see them live in Ireland in the near future.




I'm a soccer fan first, patriot second. I don't know what you're problem is, I support the team that I believe play the most attractive game and why shouldn't I?

Because it doesn't make any sense.

You support the Irish team because you are Irish right? You feel an allegiance to the team that represents the same country you do, right?

I feel the same about the national team. But I also feel the same about Limerick. The national allegiance I feel to the Irish team is reflected in the regional allegiance I feel with the Limerick team.

Why is it that you have allegiance on one level, but so no reason for allegiance on another level? Allegiances exist on every level, from club allegiance in the county league, club allegiance in the national league, to national allegiance on the international level. Why do you only adhere to one kind?

If you are satisfied with just choosing the very best club to support, regardless of the fact that you have no allegiance to them, even though these allegiances exist, why not do it at a national level?

[OneRedArmy]

You weren't giving your opinion, you were lecturing....

..and "Unfortunately you just don't get what supporting a football team is all about and I pity you for that"

...you condescending %^$£!ooooh.......touch a raw nerve there did I?:eek::rolleyes:

Come out with posts like he has on a football SUPPORTERS forum and you're going to get ridiculed.

[CollegeTillIDie]

Bertie Ahern can support who ever he wants to. Fair play to him for voicing his opinion. I support FC Barcelona I travel over at least 6-7 times a year with the possy I live in clare I cant stand the Eircom League and the fans. If your looking for a reason why people won't follow the LOI then you have it. ITS YOUR KIND! Get over yourself.


Shaman

You're missing the entire point.
If I can give a GAA analogy, you don't see fans here worshipping the Australian Rules Football League cause it's professional and because they always beat us at the Compromise Rules do you?
You don't see Clare people supporting Kilkenny cause they win the Liam Mc Carthy Cup more often do you? Or supporting Kerry instead of Clare because they win more Munster titles and All -Ireland? No you don't and that is the way things should be. A lot of foreign soccer supporters here are bandwaggoners and Gloryhunters. The fact that you support Barcelona rather than the English Premier League is the lesser of two evils. So some credit to you for taste !

People who feel as you do, about the League, are now in the media controlling the level of coverage. The Irish Times is full of stuff sent in by wire from The Guardian. If I want to read the Guardian I'll buy the bloody thing. For one thing it's cheaper than the friggin' Irish Times.

The domestic League gets pi** poor coverage in it's own printed press. Incidentally we are the only League in Europe where this is the case. You don't see the English media full of Spanish football where English football is squeezed into a few column inches whenever the paper concerned can be arsed to cover it. We are under siege in this League from the cross channel product and as I said earlier the printed media has done the League no favours.

I have been to countries in Central and Eastern Europe where the domestic League games are poorly attended and in terms of population size the attendances are around 50% of the level here in some cases. I have attended League games in Romania
Their papers are full of the local league games , which is how it should be. I feel like asking the sports editors of the newspaper of this country which country they think they are living in.

Ex British PM Tony Blair supported Newcastle United .... Not AC Milan !
Our Prime Minister ( An Taoiseach) follows Manchester United ! Forgive me if I consider that pathetic but I do.

[bennocelt]

I must admit I used to support Man Utd when I was younger. At some stage I realised I was'nt from Manchester so I stopped supporting them. Im from Kerry where there is no team in the LOI so I just follow the league. This thing about supporting the nearest team does'nt wash. A kerryman is hardly going to support a cork team (although i did last suday in the RDS).



yeah similar for me too. I used to support celtic, but then realised that supporting a scottish team (albeit with an irish heritage) wasnt really the thing to do. And i also live in a town with no EL teams or even Leinster senior league teams.............but i have made the effort to see EL games...........and do actively coach in my locality................i hate barstoolers........and people who jump on the bandwagon..........but then again thats the irish for you
Unless you have a strong connection I find it really stupid to shell out money to watch a foreign club week in, week out

and as for Bertie....he doesnt strike me as a man who knows a lot about sport...........sure he goes to the games......but then he is a politican

[pixiehead]

I must admit I used to support Man Utd when I was younger. At some stage I realised I was'nt from Manchester so I stopped supporting them. Im from Kerry where there is no team in the LOI so I just follow the league. This thing about supporting the nearest team does'nt wash. A kerryman is hardly going to support a cork team (although i did last suday in the RDS).

I recently moved to south dublin so I was thinking of following Shamrock Rovers next season and going to a few of their games. Not so sure now as they are'nt playing their home games on this side of the city.

Anyway as regards Bertie ahern he is entitled to do what he wants in his spare time and support who he wants but as leader of the country he should be a role model and supporting foreign teams is not the model i want to see!

Same Situation. Im Born and bread in Mayo . However i had a choice to follow Sligo or Galway and i picked wisely ;) 12 years later i travel an hour down the road to every home game and wonder why i spent my child years following a foreign league. Well the answer is I was brain washed!!! My advise to any one who dosent have a Local Eircom side is to give the nearest club your support. Just because their not in the same county is a poor excuse!! Its not GAA .Its 100 times worse to follow a Brit team in my eyes

[pixiehead]

Well like I said that view of supporting a team is old fashioned. A team to me is a collection of players. In 10 years time the team you support will have a whole new set of players. So what exactly are you supporting? It isn't the players, it's just some romantic image of the club's flag and what they stand for. :rolleyes:

It's silly and dated.

And I've been to the Allianz Arena 3 times, the San Siro twice. Ironically I've never been to an Eircom League game. >_>

Sorry if that sucks to you but thats what young people are doing, on an average day I'll see people wearing Barca, Ac Milan, Brazil, Argentina and whatnot shirts. I don't think I've ever seen anyone wearing a Cork City shirt, heck you don't even see people wearing EPL shirts anymore.
We're Irish, we're the best so why shouldn't we support the best sports teams even if they're not our own. ^_^

Lads I really think this Guy is about 14 or else he is seriously deluded. I would suggest we ignore him from now on as i think he is looking for attention (ADD)
Ive never read such excreament

[Scram]

This country makes me sick. Where else would you get the leader of a country spouting on national radio about a foreign league. Disgusting.

Absolutely, that is the state of the nation. The lowest common denominator are pandered to by Leinster House, it's all about celebrity.

[harry crumb]

Bertie Ahern can support who ever he wants to. Fair play to him for voicing his opinion. I support FC Barcelona I travel over at least 6-7 times a year with the possy I live in clare I cant stand the Eircom League and the fans. If your looking for a reason why people won't follow the LOI then you have it. ITS YOUR KIND! Get over yourself.

Cant stand the fans of the Eircom league!!!

I feel like a leper. Im just a normal feen that goes to a game every other week. I hate Dublin teams and sneer at Waterford.

Your living in a dream world.

BTW it must be tough to go all the way to the west coast of Spain to watch the best team on the planet a few weekend every year.:D

[soccerc]

BTW it must be tough to go all the way to the west coast of Spain to watch the best team on the planet a few weekend every year.:D

Just hope you aren't a travel or estate agent! :D

[Comic Book Guy]

Sorry if that sucks to you but thats what young people are doing, on an average day I'll see people wearing Barca, Ac Milan, Brazil, Argentina and whatnot shirts. I don't think I've ever seen anyone wearing a Cork City shirt, heck you don't even see people wearing EPL shirts anymore.
We're Irish, we're the best so why shouldn't we support the best sports teams even if they're not our own. ^_^[/QUOTE]

Well it depends on where you are because anytime I am in Cork I see lots of different people wearing Cork City shirts, jackets etc, indeed I would say that they are probably the most worn club merchandise in the City and that takes Man u, Liverpool etc in to account as well.
You sir are a consumer and not a fan you will probably change allegiance in another year or so to some other club (and you are entitled to do so).
However the last sentence is just so pathetic. so leave us to have a go at Bertie, God knows he deserves it.

[BohDiddley]

The band-wagonning debate isn't only about Irish football. The English game also is dying on its feet because of the consumerism that sees fans choosing to follow ManU, Celtic, Chelsea and Barcelona in preference to their own.
The G14, with global brands, huge investment and obscene player wages, are practising a form of sporting cannabilism. It's not about 'consumer choice', the creed of the airhead. It's about sustainability, heritage, and real supporters enjoying real football.

Millwall fan Rod Liddle puts it in stark terms in his Sunday Times column (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/columnists/rod_liddle/article3022205.ece) today:

Mind you, we in the media should share a little of the blame with our unrelenting obsession with the Premier League at the expense of everything else. Page after page of speculative preview of big club fixtures in the morning national dailies and scarcely a mention of what’s taking place in that vast black hole below Derby County. In my club’s local paper, The Evening Standard, you will trawl through five pages of guff about Cesc Fabregas’s groin strain or Jermain Defoe’s existential anguish, before finding five lines, next to the stuff about horses, telling you Millwall, Orient, Barnet, Palace et al are also playing this weekend and hope to win. Oh, and that Luton Town have gone out of business.

[kingdomkerry]

Rod Little is that the guy.............

http:www.youtube.com/watch?v=Prep4trYNj4

Tune in to about 8 minutes

[NeilMcD]

I think there are two separate issues here.

First, Bertie, as a citizen, is entitled to support whoever he wants. And he's just as open to criticism for that choice as anybody else is. As a citizen, I'd much rather he supported his local side or closest eL side rather than a foreign team, just like I'd rather everybody did.

Secondly, a Taoiseach is aware that basically everything he says and does will be scrutinised. That comes with the territory of being Taoiseach. The eL, like it or not (and some posting here clearly don't), is the national league, and has been for many, many years. It is a part of our history, our culture, our tradition, and our identity. And these are things that a Taoiseach should be trying to promote, not ignore.


Fair play great post.

[BohDiddley]

Rod Little is that the guy.............

http:www.youtube.com/watch?v=Prep4trYNj4

Tune in to about 8 minutes


That's the guy! :D
Liddle does tend to get up the noses of those who can only see as far as ManU and the rest of them. Which is a very good thing.
What his leaving his wife has to do with, only Dunphy, it seems, can tell.

[TonyD]

Well like I said that view of supporting a team is old fashioned. A team to me is a collection of players. In 10 years time the team you support will have a whole new set of players. So what exactly are you supporting? It isn't the players, it's just some romantic image of the club's flag and what they stand for. :rolleyes:

It's silly and dated.

And I've been to the Allianz Arena 3 times, the San Siro twice. Ironically I've never been to an Eircom League game. >_>

Sorry if that sucks to you but thats what young people are doing, on an average day I'll see people wearing Barca, Ac Milan, Brazil, Argentina and whatnot shirts. I don't think I've ever seen anyone wearing a Cork City shirt, heck you don't even see people wearing EPL shirts anymore.
We're Irish, we're the best so why shouldn't we support the best sports teams even if they're not our own. ^_^

In a post just dripping with hilarity, that sentence just takes the Kimberly, Mikado, and Coconut Cream. Poor Ciaran, can we have a volunteer to break the news to him ? :D:D

[woodie]

the biggest turn off in relation to the Eircom League is the self absorb and obnoxious fans. "Our League is great and anyone that watches English soccer is evil"

[sligoman]

the biggest turn off in relation to the Eircom League is the self absorb and obnoxious fans. "Our League is great and anyone that watches English soccer is evil"You've no problem listening to the ****e Sky constantly spout about how 'our league is the best in the world' though?

[gustavo]

the biggest turn off in relation to the Eircom League is the self absorb and obnoxious fans. "Our League is great and anyone that watches English soccer is evil"
Who said that?

[OneRedArmy]

the biggest turn off in relation to the Eircom League is the self absorb and obnoxious fans. "Our League is great and anyone that watches English soccer is evil"Convenient.

[Erstwhile Bóz]

Same Situation. Im Born and bread in Mayo . However i had a choice to follow Sligo or Galway and i picked wisely ;) 12 years later i travel an hour down the road to every home game and wonder why i spent my child years following a foreign league. Well the answer is I was brain washed!!! My advise to any one who dosent have a Local Eircom side is to give the nearest club your support. Just because their not in the same county is a poor excuse!! Its not GAA .Its 100 times worse to follow a Brit team in my eyes
What would you do — honest question — if a Mayo team entered the league?

I've always wondered that about people down the country. Not trying to be smart at all.

Sort of like when Donegal Celtic got back up and running in Belfast. Did that split the Cliftonville support to any extent, does anybody know? As far as I can gather Cliftonville became the 'pan-Belfast-nationalist' team by default. (Like Bohs becoming the Northside kingpins after Drumcondra's demise, I suppose.)

[pixiehead]

What would you do — honest question — if a Mayo team entered the league?

I've always wondered that about people down the country. Not trying to be smart at all.

Sort of like when Donegal Celtic got back up and running in Belfast. Did that split the Cliftonville support to any extent, does anybody know? As far as I can gather Cliftonville became the 'pan-Belfast-nationalist' team by default. (Like Bohs becoming the Northside kingpins after Drumcondra's demise, I suppose.)

Honest Answer. Id stay following United!! Ive followed them through thick and thin and there simply wouldnt be any reason for me to Follow a Mayo side with the Passion i have for the tribesmen. Also Mayo is ravaged by GAA, Premiership, One minded muck savages so an EL team wouldnt have a hope of getting a fan base :o

[kingdomkerry]

That's the guy! :D
Liddle does tend to get up the noses of those who can only see as far as ManU and the rest of them. Which is a very good thing.
What his leaving his wife has to do with, only Dunphy, it seems, can tell.

Yeah that was the one where dunphy told the whole world about his "young one". He also called niall quinn a "creep". You would'nt get that entertainment on Sky!!

[dcfcsteve]

What would you do — honest question — if a Mayo team entered the league?

I've always wondered that about people down the country. Not trying to be smart at all.

Sort of like when Donegal Celtic got back up and running in Belfast. Did that split the Cliftonville support to any extent, does anybody know? As far as I can gather Cliftonville became the 'pan-Belfast-nationalist' team by default. (Like Bohs becoming the Northside kingpins after Drumcondra's demise, I suppose.)

Donegal Celtic are a west Belfast team. And a poor one with limited history, no fans and a rubbish ground at that.

Cliftonville are a North Belfast team, and the oldest in Irish football. Therefore, why would they shed fans to the above ? Did Pats shed fans to Dublin City when they relaunched themselves in Tolka ? :confused:

As for the 'pan-Belfast-nationalist team' bit. Those who are into football primarily through reasons of politics tend not to give a fcuk about the Irish League. They have Glasgow Celtic to help them live-out their sectarian fantasies....

I'm not sure where you're getting this idea of a body of Nationalist football supporters in belfast anyway, eager to switch allegiance at the appearance of a team with a shilelaigh on its badge or something else more uber-Gaelic than they've had to settle with before. I can only imagine its from naive conjecture.

[Clifford]

Did anyone listen to Bertie? What did he come up with?

[Réiteoir]

Ciaran and a few others in here remind me of that character played by John Thompson in the Fast Show a few years back - Roger, the Nouveau Football Fan

He was a middle-class football fan, whose every utterance betrayed the faddish nature of his devotion.

“I used to support Manchester United,” he tells those in the vicinity of his recently acquired seat at Highbury, “but then you had to support them where I came from in, er, Hampstead.”

When United failed to win the league, he switched to Blackburn Rovers and he is “thinking of giving Newcastle Athletic a go”. But for now, he tells his appalled audience, “I’m a true blue Gunner Gooner - bang!”

Then, as soon as the first opposition goal goes in, he leaves. “Soccer!” he shouts, packing his picnic hamper away.

That sums up the barstooler and the foreign club dick-riders perfectly.

[ramsfan]

I think there are two separate issues here.

First, Bertie, as a citizen, is entitled to support whoever he wants. And he's just as open to criticism for that choice as anybody else is. As a citizen, I'd much rather he supported his local side or closest eL side rather than a foreign team, just like I'd rather everybody did.

Secondly, a Taoiseach is aware that basically everything he says and does will be scrutinised. That comes with the territory of being Taoiseach. The eL, like it or not (and some posting here clearly don't), is the national league, and has been for many, many years. It is a part of our history, our culture, our tradition, and our identity. And these are things that a Taoiseach should be trying to promote, not ignore.

excellent post hit the nail on the head:D

[dcfcsteve]

the biggest turn off in relation to the Eircom League is the self absorb and obnoxious fans. "Our League is great and anyone that watches English soccer is evil"

So THAT'S what's keeping the otherwise keen hordes of band-wagion jumping big-game hunting Premiersh!t worshipping goons away from Irish football...!

Thanks Wookie. If only we'd known before that it's us who're in the wrong, and not them.....

:o

[John83]

...Like many others on here I intensely dislike the garden variety Irish football consumer who has the footballing alligience of an Italian tank commander...
I suspect the footballing alligence of the average Italian tank commander tends rather more towards Milan, Juve, Roma and their ilk than clubs located in London and north-east England.

[John83]

I agree, in theory, with the idea that we as Irish men/women should be supporting a local team. However, the way you would usually begin to support a local team ie by going along with your pals, father, grandfather etc., has not been the case for a large majority of people in this country. I began supporting Spurs in 1986 when my da brought me along to my first game whilst over visiting my gran for Christmas in London. I have supported them ever since though for me the love of the national team supercedes this.

When Rovers played for a while in the RDS, on my bus route, I went along for a bit with the brother, but I never developed an affinity with the club nor the LOI. I do respect fans of the LOI and I have been glad of late to see the progress being made both in the calibre of player on show and the end 'product'. I don't subscribe to the notion that you have to attend LOI football regularly to fully understand the game and feel that the attitude towards 'barstoolers' is counter-productive.

Live and let live I say, and I hope the domestic game continues to thrive. Those pointing to the youth support are correct as they are fans of the future. As any football fan knows, you can't change your club once your hooked.

Well, most people anyway.
Nice post.

Your point about the lack of a tradition here hurting the league is interesting, but it seems to me that as crowds were much higher in the past (pre-TV), so there are many older people out there who were taken by their dads, and didn't carry it on.

[osarusan]

it seems to me that as crowds were much higher in the past (pre-TV), so there are many older people out there who were taken by their dads, and didn't carry it on.

Agreed.

And, Docboy (good, honest post, btw), while it was true in your case, I'm guessing that only a very small percentage of people who now support foreign clubs were first introduced to those clubs by way of a live game.

The arguement that "there was nobody to take me" didn't stop many from finding a foreign club to support.

[Redie]

For what it's worth below is a copy of an email I sent to Today FM Sports department this afternoon............

The attitude of people towards Irish Soccer has always confounded me and it continues to do so even after all these years. I have always felt that Today FM in general and your Premier League Live programme in particular epitomises the pathetic obsession with a second rate foreign league that prevails in this country. It is a shallow fixation that dominates the sporting media in Ireland and it is probably not matched in any other country in the world. What makes it more upsetting is that it is totally at the expense of Irish football which is to all intents and purposes ignored. This mania reached new depths last Saturday when you interviewed Bertie Ahern on your programme and to hear the leader of our nation waffling on about his life long love for three British clubs – Man Utd, Celtic and wait for it, Hull City – sent me running for the sick bucket. I repeat what other country would have it’s Prime Minister actively promoting the exodus of millions of euro every year from his country’s economy to fund a league that is already vulgarly awash with money. I do enjoy your programme and listen to it whenever is convenient and it is undoubtedly a very professional production but as an Irish football supporter it continually hurts me that the only time Irish soccer gets a mention is when there is an opportunity to slag it off. Your programme lasts for four hours and it is unbelievable that you cannot dedicate a five or ten minute slot to Irish soccer, if you at least read out the weekend fixtures during the programme it would be something but I suppose it would be asking too much for Today FM and Bertie Ahern to give Irish football a DIG OUT.

[jbyrne]

Your programme lasts for four hours and it is unbelievable that you cannot dedicate a five or ten minute slot to Irish soccer, if you at least read out the weekend fixtures during the programme it would be something but I suppose it would be asking too much for Today FM and Bertie Ahern to give Irish football a DIG OUT.[/I]

surely rather than berating today fm it would be far better to lobby them about a ten min slot during the programme dedicated to eircom lge football? they are a commercial concern at the end of the day and would possibly welcome constructive feedback that may ultimately improve their listenership.
i have long thought that part of the problem of promoting the eircom lge is the standard (usually low i'm afraid) of the pundits put in front of the microphone / tv. compare the ranting of the likes of pat dolan and roddy collins with the mature analysis of the likes of giles / hunter on newstalk

[pixiehead]

surely rather than berating today fm it would be far better to lobby them about a ten min slot during the programme dedicated to eircom lge football? they are a commercial concern at the end of the day and would possibly welcome constructive feedback that may ultimately improve their listenership.
i have long thought that part of the problem of promoting the eircom lge is the standard (usually low i'm afraid) of the pundits put in front of the microphone / tv. compare the ranting of the likes of pat dolan and roddy collins with the mature analysis of the likes of giles / hunter on newstalk

Well can we sort somthing out so ??

[Erstwhile Bóz]

Donegal Celtic are a west Belfast team. And a poor one with limited history, no fans and a rubbish ground at that.

Cliftonville are a North Belfast team, and the oldest in Irish football. Therefore, why would they shed fans to the above ? Did Pats shed fans to Dublin City when they relaunched themselves in Tolka ? :confused:

As for the 'pan-Belfast-nationalist team' bit. Those who are into football primarily through reasons of politics tend not to give a fcuk about the Irish League. They have Glasgow Celtic to help them live-out their sectarian fantasies....

I'm not sure where you're getting this idea of a body of Nationalist football supporters in belfast anyway, eager to switch allegiance at the appearance of a team with a shilelaigh on its badge or something else more uber-Gaelic than they've had to settle with before. I can only imagine its from naive conjecture.
Woah, there.

I got this understanding from a lad from Newry who used to work in the same place as me, with whom I had a casual discussion on the subject years ago. 'Pan-Belfast-nationalist team' was obviously hyperbole, but as he explained it, the closest team for Belfast Celtic families to 'choose from' after they went for a Burton (and were left in a situation similar to that of pixiefan) was Linfield. He didn't really stress the apoliticism of West Belfast football fans in the course of the conversation. I am delighted to learn about same; I knew Glentoran were meant to have great cross-community support until the seventies but I didn't know the goodwill was general.

There's a huge section of Bohs fans whose families in prior generations were solidly Drums, including my own. And when Shels came into Drumcondra there was a little flurry of Northside schoolkids who got the jerseys and started going to the matches. Things change very quickly in Irish football.

If you're saying that the football people from the West Belfast families that historically constituted the Belfast Celtic demographic just gave up football or all support Celtic (Glasgow) now, and Cliftonville fans are all from North Belfast, then that's grand — lots of former Drums families have purely Premiership descendants as part of a wider phenomenon — and I have more information on the subject.

But I was under the impression that Cliftonville had fans in West Belfast (sort of like Galway have fans in Mayo) and that furthermore these fans did not drift from Linfield's fan base.

[dcfcsteve]

Woah, there.

I got this understanding from a lad from Newry who used to work in the same place as me, with whom I had a casual discussion on the subject years ago. 'Pan-Belfast-nationalist team' was obviously hyperbole, but as he explained it, the closest team for Belfast Celtic families to 'choose from' after they went for a Burton (and were left in a situation similar to that of pixiefan) was Linfield. He didn't really stress the apoliticism of West Belfast football fans in the course of the conversation. I am delighted to learn about same; I knew Glentoran were meant to have great cross-community support until the seventies but I didn't know the goodwill was general.

Like most things, it isn't as simple as the 'Catholics support Catholic teams' theory your mucker form Newry has suggested. I suspect that his knowledge of Irish football and Belfast was rather ropey - as the below will suggest.

First of all, Cliftonville spent a large part of their history as a team associated primarily with the protestant community, rather than the Catholic one. I'm not sure exactly when the change to being a perceptively Nationalist team happened, but I suspect it was greatly accelerated by the onset of the Troubles, from which point onwards the slowly changing 'ethnic' lines within North Belfast began to alter much more dramatically. Cliftonville FC began life in a protestant area of Belfast, but over time found itself in a staunchly Catholic/nationalist area instead. Its support changed to reflect this. As I said, I'm not sure when this metamorphosis/change in catchment area and support occured, but I would be surprised if it was at an advanced stage as early as 1948, when Belfast Celtic left senior football.

Secondly - as you've mentioned re the Glens, most of Northern Irish football managed to avoid serious sectarian divisions prior to the Troubles. Linfield and Belfast Celtic were the obvious exceptions to this - largely mirroring the situation in Scotland. The rest of the teams in the league by and large just got on with their football (isolated incidents aside) in the late 1940's and early 1950's (i.e. the post eltic period). Therefore - there was no special attraction for the Catholics who found themselves without a club in 1948 to be drawn towards Cliftonville (particularly as the Reds were an unsuccessful amateur side at the time). Religion was not a draw to Cliftonville in the 1940's/1950's.

Thirdly - your friend's knowledge of Irish League football and Belfast geography is rather suspect. Linfield have always been baased in South Belfast - Belfast Celtic in the West of the city. Linfied were far form the closest option for Celtic fans to switch allegiance to - e.g. Distillery were West Belfast based until the 70'S. Crusaders, who replaced Celtic, may have been closer in their North Belfast base than The Blues (hough someone with a better knowledge of Belfast woudl need to confirm or deny this). Regardless - geography did not provide a reason for Celtic fans to switch.


But I was under the impression that Cliftonville had fans in West Belfast (sort of like Galway have fans in Mayo) and that furthermore these fans did not drift from Linfield's fan base.

I have no doubt that, over the years, Cliftonville developed support in West Belfast. Particularly as the club became more narrowly defined in religious-support terms, and particularly as Cliftonville-supporting Catholic families moved from the interface areas of North Belfast to the relative safety of the West of the city. But that doesn't suggest that Celtic fans switched to the Reds. All Belfast clubs would've developed support bases throughout the City anyway, as the population became more mobile and with the displacement caused by the Troubles. But I suspect strongly that your friend from Newry added a Catholic one and one together and ended-up with a Vatican-charged 257 that didn't reflect reality ;) . You also appear to be under the impression that Windsor Park is in, or near, West Belfast...? :confused:


There's a huge section of Bohs fans whose families in prior generations were solidly Drums, including my own.

That makes sense geographically, given how close Tolka and Dalymount are. Solitude and Celtic Park were much further apart however. And by the theory of geographical proximity, Celtic fans should've largely switched allegiance to Distillery anyway.


If you're saying that the football people from the West Belfast families that historically constituted the Belfast Celtic demographic just gave up football or all support Celtic (Glasgow) now, and Cliftonville fans are all from North Belfast, then that's grand — lots of former Drums families have purely Premiership descendants as part of a wider phenomenon — and I have more information on the subject.

I have no idea what Belfast Celtic fans did when their club died. However - given Celtic were a very successful, glamorous, professional club, I suspect their fans had no interest in supporting any other team instead, particularly an unsuccessful amateur one in a different part of the city. If Man United disappeared tomorrow, would their support suddenly shift to Bury ? That's not really how football works (particularly not for the generation that supported Celtic).

[OneRedArmy]

Secondly - as you've mentioned re the Glens, most of Northern Irish football managed to avoid serious sectarian divisions prior to the Troubles. Steve whilst you are correct in disabusing the link between Belfast Celtic and Cliftonville the above statement is not entirely correct. Can't be arsed arguing the toss on this, but broadly Catholics in Belfast either kept their heads down and their mouths shut, or supported Distillery.

Put bluntly there absolutely were divisions and plenty of incidents at and around football games much nastier than anything that we've seen in the last 20 years, but things were very different back then in every facet of life and for many reasons they didn't demand or receive media coverage.

[sonofstan]

You also appear to be under the impression that Windsor Park is in, or near, West Belfast...?

Nearer than solitude, surely? I'd guess Windsor is no further from the Falls than Tolka is from Dalyer

[Erstwhile Bóz]

Like most things, it isn't as simple as the 'Catholics support Catholic teams' theory your mucker form Newry has suggested. I suspect that his knowledge of Irish football and Belfast was rather ropey - as the below will suggest...

Very interesting and much appreciated.




First of all, Cliftonville spent a large part of their history as a team associated primarily with the protestant community, rather than the Catholic one. ...
That's what sparked off the conversation, if memory serves. Distillery might well have been mentioned as well, but if they were I obviously forgot about them.

[Erstwhile Bóz]

Nearer than solitude, surely? I'd guess Windsor is no further from the Falls than Tolka is from Dalyer
Google Maps says 1.7 miles for Windsor Park - (top of the) Falls Rd. and 2.3 km for Dalymount to Tolka. That makes Windsor a little further away from the Falls than Tolka from Dalyer, I think. It's still next-door in real terms, anyway.

(Not that this is any longer a material bit of information in the light of dcfcsteve's more detailed explanation above, I hasten to add.)

[barney]

Ciaran and a few others in here remind me of that character played by John Thompson in the Fast Show a few years back - Roger, the Nouveau Football Fan

He was a middle-class football fan, whose every utterance betrayed the faddish nature of his devotion.

“I used to support Manchester United,” he tells those in the vicinity of his recently acquired seat at Highbury, “but then you had to support them where I came from in, er, Hampstead.”

When United failed to win the league, he switched to Blackburn Rovers and he is “thinking of giving Newcastle Athletic a go”. But for now, he tells his appalled audience, “I’m a true blue Gunner Gooner - bang!”

Then, as soon as the first opposition goal goes in, he leaves. “Soccer!” he shouts, packing his picnic hamper away.

That sums up the barstooler and the foreign club dick-riders perfectly.

No it doesn't.

Some people, if they are going to watch football, want to watch quality football. We have a strong link with the English game (media coverage, Irish players playing in the league, relatives in England) which, like it or not, is infinitely superior to the eircom League in terms of quality. The Premiership may be overhyped but it is a very good standard of football and one of the best, if not the best, leagues in the world.

Very few, if any, of my mates have ever switched (English) teams that they support/follow and good percentage of them have a much better understanding of the game than a lot of the people I see (and hear) at eircom League grounds.

I support my local side and get to as many games as possible. I also watch and follow The Premiership. I have the time and inclination to do both. Some people don't and plump for the English game. That's a reasonable choice in my book (even if I don't agree). Football is not 100% tribal for a lot of people. They enjoy the game and enjoy watching it being played well.

People aren't going to change. It's therefore up to the eircom League to improve the standard of the league and its facilities until such time that more people decide that the drop in the quality of what they are watching is amply compensated by the fact that they are supporting their local club.

Less of the 'chip on the shoulder' attitude wouldn't go amiss either. If the eircom League/FAI adopt an attitude of "I can't understand how anyone can support an English club" then the situation will not get any better. There is a reason it happens with most football supporters in this country. It's up to the league to do something to reverse the trend.

[Erstwhile Bóz]

Less of the 'chip on the shoulder' attitude wouldn't go amiss either.
In some cases it is 'zeal of the convert' stuff, though, and that's not to denigrate it or anything. The league needs all the zealots it gets.

There's people who have always only followed English soccer and (a tiny amount of) people who have always exclusively followed their local Irish team. Many of the latter are understandably cheesed off about the former.

Then you have football-mental people who have always supported League of Ireland and gone to the matches, but have also always followed the fortunes of an English team and are mad about them as well and probably go over once or twice a season, and probably have a favourite in about three other leagues too.

Then you have people who started off following English teams like their mates but who in later life discovered League of Ireland. It depends how they handle that discovery. Some people still keep an eye out for their English team and follow them as closely as they used to, but are probably much more into the live game, going to as many Irish matches as possible.

Some of this last group, however, do a complete 180, recant their former lifestyle, disavow any Irishman following any English team in any circumstances, and claim not to fathom how anybody could ever do such a thing in the first place.

[OneRedArmy]

In reference to the elitist and zealots points raised in respect of EL supporters, bear in mind that hardcore fans of any club in any league dislike the sunshiner/bandwagon variety of their own support.

Those who "follow" English sides and make it over to a game once in a while might like to think the die hards love the effort you make to attend the odd game, but really, as far as they're concerned, there's no difference between you and the Japanese or Norwegian guy who makes it to a match every once in a while.

They look down their nose at sunshiners of any variety. Fact.