The Kilcoynes - failed dreamers or villains?

[el punter]

I bravely broach the emotive issues of the Kilcoynes following RTE's bank holiday programme "20 Moments that shook Irish sport"

The issues surrounding the sale of Miltown were a little before my time. I was fortunate to attend one game at Glenmalure when I was very young though.

RTE presented Kilcoyne as some style of hard luck hero in this portrayal of events. Indeed my wife said she felt sorry for the guy. On the contrary among LOI fans he is only troubled by John Delaney on the most hated suit wearer list.

In the FAI ticketing fiasco all they were trying to do was get more Irish fans to the games - albeit in a cackhanded way.

In the Miltown saga it seemed they aimed their sights too high, and they asked the perfectly reasonable question "Where were all these dyed in the wool Rovers fans when the matches were being played? The fans could have saved Miltown by actually going to the games"

The above statements are not necessarily my own opinion, but I'd like to see them discussed by the posters here for my further enlightenment, try not to get the thread closed lads :)

[John83]

Could I ask, where did Milltown come in the list last night? I saw ~5-14th and it wasn't mentioned.

[noby]

I'd say you just missed it so - must have been around the mid teens.

[Angus]

Agree - I was surprised at how low the gates were at Milltown - BUT I do not know the full story and this should not be an endorsement of anybody.

[BrayUnknowns]

Almost sure it was 15th in the list. Some fantastic footae from the 50s and 60s, easily 25,000 plus packed in watching eL games...

I don't know the full story, but from what i got out of the few minutes they were talking about it - They invested heavily in the club and it didn't work out. They made a great point when they said that only 400 or 500 used to turn up to games yet when they announced they would be selling thousands upon thousands turned up to protest. Why ddn't they just go to the games and it would have never happened...

Sad story really

[DvB]

Almost sure it was 15th in the list. Some fantastic footae from the 50s and 60s, easily 25,000 plus packed in watching eL games...

I don't know the full story, but from what i got out of the few minutes they were talking about it - They invested heavily in the club and it didn't work out. They made a great point when they said that only 400 or 500 used to turn up to games yet when they announced they would be selling thousands upon thousands turned up to protest. Why ddn't they just go to the games and it would have never happened...

Sad story really


The attendance figures quoted were way off.
This programme & the way Lucifer Kilkoye was portrayed is actually a subject of debate on our own forum.

AFAIC I hope he & the rest of them die a slow painful death for what they did.

Koh

[mypost]

They made a great point when they said that only 400 or 500 used to turn up to games yet when they announced they would be selling thousands upon thousands turned up to protest. Why ddn't they just go to the games and it would have never happened...

Sad story really

That's because most of those that protested, were the ones who went every week - and still do.

Many others who didn't go, couldn't because they simply couldn't afford to pay the £4 demanded every fortnight. Those who were on the dole, got less than £30-40 a week. There was no Celtic Tiger in those days.

[Jerry The Saint]

The attendance figures quoted were way off.
This programme & the way Lucifer Kilkoye was portrayed is actually a subject of debate on our own forum.

AFAIC I hope he & the rest of them die a slow painful death for what they did.


How do Rovers fans feel about the four-in-a-row? I know they still sing about it. How much of the money to build that team came from the Kilcoynes?

(Not excusing the land grab and ground selling, by the way, just curious. Also think it was poor form for Cork City and the FAI to give Kilcoyne an important role afterwards).

[mypost]

How much came from the fans, and sponsors?

LK and co are only remembered for 1 thing. The fact that we ran rings round the rest of the league at the time, is pure coincidence.

[OneRedArmy]

The programme was very pro-Kilcoynes and it didn't help that Dunphy also threw his weight behind them.

There's probably a bit of truth that the crowds weren't great in the latter Milltown days, but his attempt to blame the boycott on finally selling the club (as opposed to the ground) was ridiculous.

[pete]

It was before my time & apparent from sadness the thing that struck me most was:

* Small attend at game & high attendance at protests
* Strong sense of deja vu - clubs over spending with no alternative plan when eventually go bust
* Some people will protest but never attend games - could see this in recent years when Bohs announced selling Dalymount.

If Rovers had held on for a bit longer even if they had to sell might have accrued some real money when property boom started.

How much was it sold for in the end? was it more than the debts?

[gspain]

I was at a number of games in Milltown in the late 70's and right up to 1987. I remember large crowds for quite a few of these games. I can't remmeber anything close to 400.

The programme failed to mention that the Kilcoynes bought the ground from the Jesuits for £50,000 shortly before selling it on for £1,000,000. Rovers also made substantial money from transfers at the time. O'Brien, Buckley and Campbell among others.

I found the KRAM guy a little sad really as he kept justifying that he'd done all he can. Surely nobody is blaming those guys. They did do their best but he could have put some of the case instead. Maybe he did and he was edited out.

Were the game shown from the 60's not played at Dalymount btw? It didn't look like Milltown.

As for the Merriongate fiasco. Well I played my own small part as Louis was arrested outside Brazil v Argentina while selling me 2 tickets for the game at below face value. While Joe Delaney definitely dealt with some dodgy people I think his heart was in the right place here and many people got to see games in 1990 and 1994 that otherwise wouldn't.

The mafia ran the official ticketing and the touts for the 1990 World Cup. Louis K was arrested and held for selling tickets below face value while dozens of touts operated openly under the noses of the cops.

In 1994 the tickets were mainly handed over the travel agents by FIFA who charged extortionate fees.

[OneRedArmy]

It was before my time & apparent from sadness the thing that struck me most was:

* Small attend at game & high attendance at protests
* Strong sense of deja vu - clubs over spending with no alternative plan when eventually go bust
* Some people will protest but never attend games - could see this in recent years when Bohs announced selling Dalymount.

If Rovers had held on for a bit longer even if they had to sell might have accrued some real money when property boom started.

How much was it sold for in the end? was it more than the debts?In fairness Pete your questions indicate that you have bitten the RTE version of events.

[OwlsFan]

Whitewash job on the Kilcoynes. They tried to make an all professional set up which was a huge gamble. I was one of those who attended the games then. The gates weren't great but was it right for the Kilcoynes to risk the club and its ground in the hope that they'd make money by bringing back the crowds? There was no plan B if it didn't work except to sell my beloved Milltown to property developers. But what really also gets me is that Kilcoyne became head of the FAI after that which is no surprise when you hear Bernard O'Byrne speaking in his defence.

When Rovers left Milltown I didn't go to Tolka even though I had been a regular attender for 20+ years :o Rovers and Milltown to me were synonymous.

The shots from the 1960s and 70s of the big crowds were mostly at Dalymount.

[MariborKev]

While Joe Delaney definitely dealt with some dodgy people I think his heart was in the right place here and many people got to see games in 1990 and 1994 that otherwise wouldn't.

Here here Gary, couldn't agree more.

[pete]

In fairness Pete your questions indicate that you have bitten the RTE version of events.

Like 90% of the viewers who don't know anything else...

Even if the 400 figure for attendances was a bit off I think the point about protesters is still valid. A certain Labour politician telling us Dalymount must stay when probably never been near the ground. You could see also on the Saipan thing last night where they showed a protester who looked like she never near a football ground in her life.

[khoop]

In the Miltown saga it seemed they aimed their sights too high, and they asked the perfectly reasonable question "Where were all these dyed in the wool Rovers fans when the matches were being played? The fans could have saved Miltown by actually going to the games"

The figures mentioned are a blatant LIE.

I was there a lot during the Kilcoyne era. The biggest crowd I experienced was around 9,000 (v. Sligo). Crowds of 4,000 - 5,000 weren't weekly, but they were regular enough. 7,000 was occasional.

Letting Kilcoyne spout lies actually plays right into the hands of GAA people who are constantly claiming that "Rovers only have a few hundred fans" as an excuse to move in on Tallaght Stadium.

[OwlsFan]

FUnnily enough they used never publish the attendances. Just the gate receipts and anything over £1000 was a biggie but I suspect much of the money wasn't owned up to.

I reckon there were about close enough to about a thousand people going to the games then. Certainly not 4 or 5 thousand. That would have filled Milltown. But there would have been many thousands of floating supporters and surely they were entitled to protest. The ground was an amenity. If a national park only has a few hundred visitors a week, should it be sold off for apartments? No!!

[Billy Lord]

Louis couldn't tell the time, never mind the truth. The numbers protesting were less than our average gates, and the Kilcoynes only started getting crowds of 400 after they'd abandoned Milltown and Tolka was boycotted by most regulars.

[khoop]

I reckon there were about close enough to about a thousand people going to the games then. Certainly not 4 or 5 thousand. That would have filled Milltown

The record crowd at Milltown was 28,000 in 1968 v. Waterford.

Regarding my figures in the post above - whatever about crowds towards the end, Kilcoyne has drastically revised the figures downwards FOR HIS ENTIRE TIME THERE.

He says that the crowds I experienced there in the late sevenites and early eighties didn't happen.

He's a liar - pure and simple.

[noby]

The numbers protesting were less than our average gates

I'm another who doesn't know better, but even on the footage last night that was my first thought. There was a shot of a march, where there were probably a few hundred, but any other shot was of a lot smaller crowds.

[Stuttgart88]

The programme failed to mention that the Kilcoynes bought the ground from the Jesuits for £50,000 shortly before selling it on for £1,000,000. The Jesuits themselves claimed they were fleeced as far as I can remember. They said they were tricked into handing over the title, believing the Kilcoynes wanted to develop the ground.

I attended pretty much every home game from '82 through to the start of the boycott. I can remember crowds ranging from the hundreds to the thousands. Frequently there was less a lot less than 1,000.

I started in UCD in 1985 and the only Rovers game I went to at Tolka was supporting UCD in a cup game around '88 I think.

[btid1]

I attended pretty much every home game from '82 through to the start of the boycott. I can remember crowds ranging from the hundreds to the thousands. Frequently there was less a lot less than 1,000.

I started in UCD in 1985 and the only Rovers game I went to at Tolka was supporting UCD in a cup game around '88 I think.

Dont understand this.If you were a Rovers fan surely you would support them through thick and thin and not just when they were playing in a certain location??

Some people seem to use the sale of Milltown to justify them giving up on Rovers and that baffles me.

[OwlsFan]

The record crowd at Milltown was 28,000 in 1968 v. Waterford.

I was probably at that game. Did we lose to a Johnny Mathews goal or something but I find it hard to believe that Milltown could hold that number with the small stand and terraces that weren't exactly huge. Might be though as I remember imitating a sardine on occasions. WOrst ever crush was in the Waterford Cup Final which Rovers won 3-0. As a kid I literally got lifted off my feet whenever the crowd swayed and the hundreds on the roof of the shed at the school end. I thought Dalymount was a great stadium then :D

[OwlsFan]

Some people seem to use the sale of Milltown to justify them giving up on Rovers and that baffles me.


I gave up going to Rovers after they sold Milltown. I would get the 44 bus to Milltown with my friends and home again. To me Rovers and Milltown came as a package. I didn't travel cross city to Tolka and thus lost the habit. Still supported (i.e. looked for their results etc) them but gave up going to the games.

[pete]

My comments above re: crowds v protesters wasn't a criticism of Rovers. Its an Irish thing.

The only thing i remember of Milltown is the mention by Eamonn Sweeney's eL book about being unable to score in Milltown :)

[Stuttgart88]

Dont understand this.If you were a Rovers fan surely you would support them through thick and thin and not just when they were playing in a certain location??
I went to UCD and actually played football there (not for the firsts or even close to it). Instead of going to Milltown or standing outside Tolka I went to Belfield which I did regularly enough if Rovers were playing outside of Dublin anyway. I knew half the UCD first team personally as well as the coaches, management, Dr. Tony O'Neill etc. I think it's pretty understandable, no?

[Saint MacDara]

Just a thought,does anyone think that the boycott of Tolka was just as damaging to the Rovers support base as the sale of Glenmalure?

I realize that the boycott also had the purpose of forcing out the Kilcoynes but it made SRFC suffer even more something that the club is still reeling from today.A smoother transition to Tolka might have kept attendances stable.

In hindsight do you think the boycott was a mistake?
And would the Kicoyne family eventually have sold their remaining interest in the club?
(give the fact that they would have never been forgiven for their sins)

[khoop]

In hindsight do you think the boycott was a mistake?

Yeah, right - let's move Pats to Dalymount and flog Inchicore for flats and then see how you feel.

Would you say "Hmm - better go along with it, otherwise my club might suffer"? Or would you regard your club as essentially close to dead anyway - meaning that no holds are barred?

It's easy for everyone else to philosophize - especially in hindsight.

[dcfcsteve]

RTE sold the public a proverbial pup on the Miltown saga.

The reasons behind the Kilcyne's decision to sell the club are merely secondary in the affair. The core issue is that the Kilcoyne family decided to sell the ground to property developers.

Faced with the choice of keeping the club they say they loved as a viable entity with its own ground, and making a finnacial killing by almost killing that club, the Kilcoynes chose the latter. Louis even blamed the rest ofn the family for this on the show last night - syaing th edcision had been forced on him. It is only due to Rovers fans that the club survived - most other LOI teams would have died under similar circumstances.

And then the FAI had the temerity to make Louis Kilcoyne Presidnet after he had done a hatchet job on the most famous club in the league at that time.

So the background of dwindling crowds is not the core issue - doing a property deal on the stadium is. The Kilcoynes had no interest in selling the club on to people interested in maintaining Miltown as a ground. RTE let them totally off the hook in this regard.

[CollegeTillIDie]

Stuttgart 88

Who do you support these days? Where are you when UCD could do with you these days? :D

The Kilcoynes did lie about the numbers but one fact is true. Each year that Rovers won the League during the four in a row , the crowds got slightly smaller each season. This was despite the fact that they were without a shadow of doubt, the best team in the League and they played a decent brand of football into the bargain. Attacking , passing football . They took on Arsenal and Man United in glamour friendlies during 1985 and 1986 and beat United 2-0 on one occasion. It wasn't all doom and gloom on the crowds front , in fact one thing that Louis neglected to tell all you TV viewers was the fact that against Celtic in the European Cup in the autumn of 1986 there were 18,000 in Milltown that night. I was there myself and I can vouch for the fact that it was the largest crowd I have been amongst at a competitive game involving a League team from here in their own stadium.

But aside from that big pay day and the glamour friendlies the crowds for the bread and butter fixture were not what one would have expected . Now the fact that it was 4 quid in when there was 300,000 on the dole and 40-50,000 per year emigrating during those years might have accounted for it to an extent. There was also a lot of competition from Live TV on UTV on Sunday Afternoons. They started showing one live match a week from what is now called the Premiership. I remember going to a Shamrock Rovers V UCD match which kicked off at 5:15 on a Sunday afternoon as an attempt to avoid clashing with the televised game.
The crowd wasn't that big on the night( Rovers won 1-0 thanks to an offside goal by Michael O'Connor, so offside even Rovers fans I knew told me they thought it was offside) but it might have been worse had the game clashed with the live game on TV. These games were shown on terrestrial TV so the punters watching didn't have to forkout for a Dish or a Box cause SKY didn't exist back then. In fact it was so long ago that NTL were called Cablelink.

One of the factors behind the dwindling crowds or the lack of new support might have been that the European record , while not embarassingly bad, was poor enough for a team of that quality.

I think the Kilcoynes were initially failed dreamers but ended up villains.

[TonyD]

And then the FAI had the temerity to make Louis Kilcoyne President after he had done a hatchet job on the most famous club in the league at that time.



That's the real scandal in the whole affair if you ask me. It's kind of hard to stop someone like the Kilycoynes doing whatever they like when they own a club, but for the FAI to turn around and reward him like that was beyond belief. He shouldn't have been let within a country mile of the game in this country after that. And for Dunphy to back him shows (again) how much of a hypocrite he is. He loves to slag off the FAI, and then turns around and supports people like Kilycoyne, and Joe Delaney. I only saw a tiny bit if the programme the other night, but I saw Dunphy defending Delaney and the other FAI heads (they were only "doing the Irish thing" apparently) So much for high standards Eamonn.

[CollegeTillIDie]

Yes and get this folks he now represents football at the Olympic Council of Ireland.

[khoop]

What Kilcoyne also forgot to mention was that when fans went in to Glenmalure Park for old time's sake about a year after the last game - while the planning process dragged on - they found Rovers' entire history dumped around the ground.

Match records, photographs, pennants, trophies, all manner of historically important items - just dumped, and for the most part, destroyed by the elements.

We weren't even allowed have those.

Thanks Lucifer.

[geysir]

RTE sold the public a proverbial pup on the Miltown saga.

The reasons behind the Kilcyne's decision to sell the club are merely secondary in the affair. The core issue is that the Kilcoyne family decided to sell the ground to property developers.

Faced with the choice of keeping the club they say they loved as a viable entity with its own ground, and making a finnacial killing by almost killing that club, the Kilcoynes chose the latter. Louis even blamed the rest ofn the family for this on the show last night - syaing th edcision had been forced on him. It is only due to Rovers fans that the club survived - most other LOI teams would have died under similar circumstances.

And then the FAI had the temerity to make Louis Kilcoyne Presidnet after he had done a hatchet job on the most famous club in the league at that time.

So the background of dwindling crowds is not the core issue - doing a property deal on the stadium is. The Kilcoynes had no interest in selling the club on to people interested in maintaining Miltown as a ground. RTE let them totally off the hook in this regard.

It wasn't in that programmes sphere to do a job on the Kilcoynes.
It was more a Reeling in the Years approach not a Panorama investigation.
It provided a balanced enough report between Kilcoyne and Kram.
It's just that the extra suspects, Byrne and Dunphy, didn't help to clarify.
On that core issue you mention, the KRAM guy made it clear that the Kilcoynes refused point blank to negotiate. The program did not ignore that point.

On purchase from the nuns the ground should have been placed in trust. No club should be without it's constitution to protect it's assets.

[fergalr]

Just saw a tape of the program and am shocked and disgusted with the how it was portrayed.

The core fact is irrefutable - Kilcoyne tricked the Jesuits into selling him the ground and then sold it on for personal profit.

Allowing Kilcoyne and his crony Dunphy to misrepresent without challenge smacks of journalistic ineptitude, naivety or crassness depending on how charitable one wants to be.

[Billy Lord]

I gave up going to Rovers after they sold Milltown. I would get the 44 bus to Milltown with my friends and home again. To me Rovers and Milltown came as a package. I didn't travel cross city to Tolka and thus lost the habit. Still supported (i.e. looked for their results etc) them but gave up going to the games.

I take it you didn't go to Lansdowne or Croker to support Ireland after they vacated Dalymount?

[GreenStar]

The Sale of Milltown was number 15 on the list.

The 6 and a half minute piece can be viewed here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsiZuZA-ku8

[Poor Student]

Dunphy is extremely bitter as a result of his involvement with the Giles 'revolution' part of the Kilkoyne era. He holds a huge and perpetual grudge at the eL for the fact it wasn't a resounding success. The two of them blame the rest of the league for not stepping up to the bar Shamrock Rovers had raised and that the opposition's pitches and style of play were not conducive to their plan and vision for the club.

[Stuttgart88]

Stuttgart 88

Who do you support these days? Where are you when UCD could do with you these days? :D


Still a bit torn TBH. I like both but wouldn't claim to support either, certainly not by the standards set out by the fan police here!

If I was still in Ireland I'd hope that I'd bring the kids to either when they're old enough. I listened to a lot of the Longford match on Sunday on the radio and was disappointed my local Irish pub with RTE didn't show it on any of their numerous screens (in fairness there was a private party in one of the two main rooms, it did clash with Arsenal vs Liverpool and I do live in North London).

What disappointed me was that I was at a 40th in Dublin recently with a lot of my old college mates, all UCD and some footballers, and none knew UCD was in the semi and frankly none cared.

[Billy Lord]

It wasn't in that programmes sphere to do a job on the Kilcoynes.
It was more a Reeling in the Years approach not a Panorama investigation.
It provided a balanced enough report between Kilcoyne and Kram.
It's just that the extra suspects, Byrne and Dunphy, didn't help to clarify.
On that core issue you mention, the KRAM guy made it clear that the Kilcoynes refused point blank to negotiate. The program did not ignore that point.

On purchase from the nuns the ground should have been placed in trust. No club should be without it's constitution to protect it's assets.

You haven't got a clue. It certainly wasn't in the programme's 'sphere' to tell lies. How was it 'balanced' when 90% of it was pro-Kilcoynes, they told blatant lies about attendances, their acquisition and selling of the ground wasn't explained (Dunphy - a personal friend of Louis', so hardly an 'extra suspect' - lied about it 'always being an option' to sell), the dodgy planning process that saw democracy thwarted, and the club's subsequent history was completely ignored? Dunphy's poisonous anti-Rovers' fans articles in the papers were also ignored, and of course the gob****es behind the programme swallowed every word those ******* said.
But the Kilcoynes and Dunphy know that if you say something often enough it becomes the truth. But that's only because stupid and ignorant people accept it as the truth.

[ifk101]

Still a bit torn TBH. I like both but wouldn't claim to support either, certainly not by the standards set out by the fan police here!

If I was still in Ireland I'd hope that I'd bring the kids to either when they're old enough. I listened to a lot of the Longford match on Sunday on the radio and was disappointed my local Irish pub with RTE didn't show it on any of their numerous screens (in fairness there was a private party in one of the two main rooms, it did clash with Arsenal vs Liverpool and I do live in North London).

What disappointed me was that I was at a 40th in Dublin recently with a lot of my old college mates, all UCD and some footballers, and none knew UCD was in the semi and frankly none cared.

You could have watched the match on rte.ie. I did :)

[Ash]

... and was disappointed my local Irish pub with RTE didn't show it on any of their numerous screens

Dont worry, you can catch Finn Harps v Athlone Town live on RTE on Friday :D

[btid1]

What disappointed me was that I was at a 40th in Dublin recently with a lot of my old college mates, all UCD and some footballers, and none knew UCD was in the semi and frankly none cared.

And therin lies the problem - the Irish public's apathy.

Stuggart88 - it's not a matter of being the fan police.To me supporting Bohs is a decision for life not just a thing to do while it is fashionable or convenient.I live in Kildare but support Bohs and get to as many games as possible.To me having to get a bus across the city is not a reason to give up on following a club.Your heart clearly was never in it and you simply did it either because it was fashionable or it killed a bit of time.To me thats not being a fan it is simply being an interested on looker.

[dcfcsteve]

It wasn't in that programmes sphere to do a job on the Kilcoynes.
It was more a Reeling in the Years approach not a Panorama investigation.
It provided a balanced enough report between Kilcoyne and Kram.
It's just that the extra suspects, Byrne and Dunphy, didn't help to clarify.
On that core issue you mention, the KRAM guy made it clear that the Kilcoynes refused point blank to negotiate. The program did not ignore that point.

On purchase from the nuns the ground should have been placed in trust. No club should be without it's constitution to protect it's assets.

Couldn't disagree more.

It WAS within the programme's sphere to tell the story of what happened - i.e. Rovers being made homeless by a property deal. Instead, they chose to focus on only part of the story - Rovers being made homeless due to dwindling crowds and sellers who claim they had 'no choice'.

Had they done their job properly they would've pointed out the full story - not focusing on the bit their favourite interviewees (Dunphy et al) wanted to highlight.

[The Man Himself]

i was at milltown at least a dozen times for rovers v waterford matches and there was never under 10,000 at any of them.
the 2 best supported clubs in the country at the time and by far the biggest supported clubs.

[Dodge]

i was at milltown at least a dozen times for rovers v waterford matches and there was never under 10,000 at any of them.
the 2 best supported clubs in the country at the time and by far the biggest supported clubs.
I was a Pats Cup semi in 1986 in waterford and there was about 3,000 at the game and it was split 50/50

[Calcio Jack]

A few posts have mentioned that the Kilcoynes tricked the Jesuits.... that not true. At the time the Kilcoynes had to deal with a firm of accountants who were acting on behalf of the Jesuits.All they were interested in was getting as much as they could for the lease and had no interest in insisting on inserting a clause which would of meant the land could only be used as a soocer stadium. It has always annoyed me as to how the Jesuits put themselves accross as being 'innocent' in the ways of the world... they weren't, they took the money and weren't interested in what happened to the ground... the ironic thing is that the Jesuits if they'd realy been smart could of got a lot more from the Kilcoynes.

In relation to KRAM i've always wondered how much money did they raise...and more importantly what happened to it.

[ifk101]

Just out of curiousity - would there have been a "sizeable" number of non-paying punters at the matches in Milltown?

[Sonic]

The only villians are the shower of b@stards that were out protesting against moving from Milltown and didnt bother their asses to get out to the games and support them!!