Dermot Ahern's comments on an all Ireland side [Archive] - Page 4

EalingGreen

03/02/2007, 3:18 PM

Buala bas there for Livehead, well said. Ooops . . . I used some Irish there. Apologies to anyone that might have offended. This is an Irish site and we are proud of what we are. If you have a problem with Ireland, Irishness and proud Irish people go somewhere else.
I'll probably get banned for even posting this, but some of us aren't afraid to speak the truth.

I have no problem whatever with Ireland or Irishness. Why should I? I am an Irishman myself, born and brought up in Ireland, to Irish parents who were themselves born to Irish parents - half of them from Southern Ireland, as it happens!

My "problem" is that the likes of Livehead and Tuff Paddy either can't or won't recognise that. I presume this is because I am from the Northern end of the island and my politics are different from the majority of posters on this Board.

As for my "right" to post on this thread, I am genuinely astounded that any reasonable person could object to this! Fair enough if I abused people personally, or used outrageous or obscene terminology, but I am confident that this is not the case - even if some may be incapable of distinguishing that from the normal banter that goes on between fans.

Of course, I am not a fan of the ROI team, but I am unaware of any Rule prohibiting non-ROI fans from joining or contributing. Besides, this thread is specifically about the proposal by a senior Irish Government Minister that the ROI and NI teams be "merged" into one. Am I, as an NI fan not allowed an opinion on that? If not, then that merely serves to confirm my suspicion that some (many?) ROI fans are more interested in an effective takeover, than a union.

Which for me is highly ironic*. In football, as in life, if there is ever going to be a truly "united Ireland", then all of us on this island are going to have to get used to each other and find a way of understanding each other.

As I see it, with their mean-spirited and small-minded sniping, it is the likes of Livehead and Tuff Paddy who do most to confound the possibility of such an eventuality ever occurring. Do they want a United Ireland or not? If they do, they've got a funny way of showing it, but if they don't, I'd like to hear them say it.

* - In less politically-correct times, I might have said "Irish"!;)

livehead1

03/02/2007, 5:33 PM

I have no problem whatever with Ireland or Irishness. Why should I? I am an Irishman myself, born and brought up in Ireland, to Irish parents who were themselves born to Irish parents - half of them from Southern Ireland, as it happens!

My "problem" is that the likes of Livehead and Tuff Paddy either can't or won't recognise that. I presume this is because I am from the Northern end of the island and my politics are different from the majority of posters on this Board."
Herein lies the problem. I and most other people on this board come on here to post about football, not politics. This thread would not have got so many replies or interest had you not simply made a very valiant attempt to attack anything that anyone has aid. Politics should stay where politics is, and football should stay where football is, however, should you wish to discuss politics then i would be more than willing to do so, but not on here.

Of course, I am not a fan of the ROI team,
Then WHY BOTHER YOUR AR*E!!!! I don't go on the French football forum and start posting messages. Its not just this topic, you seem more than willing to comment on any topic that is up for debate, and consistantly slate OUR national side.

Which for me is highly ironic*.
The 'irony' for me, and many others, is someone who doesn't support us, spending hours of their time posting on our message board! Then, when questioned about their motives for doing so, feels it necessary to revert to childish insults regarding where somebody lives!

As I see it, with their mean-spirited and small-minded sniping, it is the likes of Livehead and Tuff Paddy who do most to confound the possibility of such an eventuality ever occurring. Do they want a United Ireland or not? If they do, they've got a funny way of showing it, but if they don't, I'd like to hear them say it.
You really should not have got me started here. I previously expressed a desire to keep football away from politics, and whilst I fully intend to follow this ideal wherever possible, i feel it imperative, having been directly asked, to answer this question.

As a nationalist, my heart craves for a United Ireland. However, this is only a dream at the moment, and i'm happy for it to stay that way.

In Ireland, we have an economy that is stronger than most in Europe. If we were to take the north in our wings, our GDP would be substantially lowered. This is because unemployment is high, and industry is low in the area.

In Ireland we are the recipients of some outstanding agricultural subsidies from the European Union. Now, if we had to spread these with the North we would have less for ourselves.

The European Union, has provided, and continues to provide, great levels of funding for our road improvement schemes. I took a trip to Derry on the bus recently and I noticed a distinct lack of funding had gone into the maintanance of the roads over the border. Maybe this is an isolated area, but a point nevertheless.

EalingGreen

03/02/2007, 6:46 PM

Then WHY BOTHER YOUR AR*E!!!! [i.e posting on this Board] I don't go on the French football forum and start posting messages. Its not just this topic, you seem more than willing to comment on any topic that is up for debate, and consistantly slate OUR national side.

I'll try one more time to explain why I'm posting on this topic on this Board. I am an NI supporter. The Foreign Minister of our only land neighbour makes a proposal that would mean the end of the team I support. Naturally, I have an opinion on this. I could (indeed have) debate this solely with other NI fans, but since they are in unanimous agreement, that doesn't achieve a great deal.
Therefore, I am interested in debating this with the other party involved in this proposal. What is unreasonable about that? Objecting to my expressing an opinion on this is like telling e.g. women that they should have no opinion on marriage, and never raise the issue with men. :eek:
And in any case, the whole tenor of your posts is to "shoot the messenger, not the message". Regarding that message, if my posts are obscene or offensive etc, I'm sure the Mods will put me right on that score, but if you don't like what I think about my opinions on the ROI team, then you have every right to rebut those, point by point - bring it on!
If, on the other hand, you merely object to someone to have the temerity to engage in a bit of typical football banter, then I suggest you get out a bit more, since you're coming across as a very tender little flower. Bless. ;)

lopez

03/02/2007, 10:59 PM

...As for my "right" to post on this thread, I am genuinely astounded that any reasonable person could object to this! Fair enough if I abused people personally, or used outrageous or obscene terminology, but I am confident that this is not the case...Banned already for one week last year for doing exactly that. (Granted my punishment was a month, but well worth it).

...I suggest you get out a bit more, since you're coming across as a very tender little flower. Bless.Tender little flower? Get out a bit more? Hmmm! That was the sort of reaction I had when I read you're response to me suggesting your 'hostility towards us is a political bigotry (tinged no doubt amongst some with religious bigotry) towards all things Irish nationalist or Republican.' :rolleyes:

sylvo

03/02/2007, 11:40 PM

[QUOTE=EalingGreen;616411]I'll try one more time to explain why I'm posting on this topic on this Board. I am an NI supporter. The Foreign Minister of our only land neighbour

Like the way you think that your a country, what a joke. When i'm in Armagh or Down I always find myself thinking how much like Finchley or Eailing the place looks. I take it the way too prove that you where a country was to wage a vile campagn of discrimanation and hate against part of this so called countrys community.

And Surprise surprise some of your citizens from this so called country don't feel up for playing for your team and play for your only land neighbour, and your all shocked about it.

You may be above us in some list that some bunch of gob****es in geneva or god knows where have come up with but most of us couldn't care less about your little pub team. I never go and bother to try and find out how this great rival and so called land neighbour get on and never will.

ifk101

04/02/2007, 1:31 AM

This thread has gone way off track.

Looking at it on purely footballing grounds I don't think absorbing the North's playing resources into the Ireland team would improve the quality of our side. And isn't this where Dermot Ahern's comments come from. He's obviously a football fan that wants us to qualify for the Euros and the WC or a more regular basis. But as far as I see it bringing the North into the fold is not the solution .... as some posters here illustrate uniting will only serve to divide.

osarusan

04/02/2007, 1:53 AM

Let me come to it swiftly. Your posts are a waste of time. You are not a Republic of Ireland soccer fan, you come onto this forum, irritating people with your remarks about our national side.

Rubbish. This is a thread about two national sides being merged together, and he is a supporter of one of those sides. His opinion is every bit as valid, and a lot more eloquent, than yours.

This is an Irish site and we are proud of what we are. If you have a problem with Ireland, Irishness and proud Irish people go somewhere else.
I'll probably get banned for even posting this, but some of us aren't afraid to speak the truth.

He has already stated that he is Irish, born in Ireland, of Irish parents. He seems to be very proud of his southern and northern Irish heritage. He is proud of what he is, and doesnt want to see one element of his identity, his national football team, to disappear.

I don't go on the French football forum and start posting messages.

There has never been any discussion about merging the Irish and French national teams, so the comparison is nonsense. But if such a suggestion were to start, I am sure many posters here would be looking for those French football forums.

Dermot Ahern mentions the idea of an All-Ireland side and it seems that some people on this site envisage an All-Ireland team as simply the Republic of Ireland side, with no real recongintion of the Northern element. This is, I think, where Ealing Green has problems eith the idea. He has stated that is is not about being good as much as it is about being "yourself" - feeling secure in your own identity. I have no problems with his opinions and his contributions.

Lionel Ritchie

04/02/2007, 8:49 AM

Lionel Ritchie

04/02/2007, 9:19 AM

Ah sure you're raising the bar for us all.
Way too many Commodores in our ranks so there is.:)

livehead1

04/02/2007, 11:47 AM

Lionel and anyone else this applies to. I love hearing other peoples opinion, however i do not enjoy it being thrust down my throat at every available option. Any thread EalingGreen posts on, is disparaging about our national side and not always related to his 'national' side.

Lionel Ritchie

04/02/2007, 12:07 PM

Any thread EalingGreen posts on, is disparaging about our national side and not always related to his 'national' side.

Livehead -while I don't agree with your assertion that everything Ealing says about our team is disparaging -even if it was so what? If he was Welsh would you give a flying fcuk?

i do not enjoy it being thrust down my throat at every available option. ...we're still talking football here right?:eek: ...or is Ealing not the only one on the wrong board?:D

FarBeag

04/02/2007, 12:37 PM

...we're still talking football here right?:eek: ...or is Ealing not the only one on the wrong board?:D[/QUOTE]

Classic.:D

osarusan

04/02/2007, 1:58 PM

We're talking Ireland football in this thread. He can post about World Football in the relevant section. Sorry if being a proud Irishman offends you.

This thread is about Irish football, Republic and Northern.

Do you really feel that he has no right to comment on the issue of his national side being merged with another national site? But you do have a right to comment.

I am also a proud Irishman, so your pride doesnt bother me. Just your posts.

osarusan

04/02/2007, 4:14 PM

He doesn't class himself as Irish so he should go elsewhere.

Really? This is what he said on the previous page of this thread.

I have no problem whatever with Ireland or Irishness. Why should I? I am an Irishman myself, born and brought up in Ireland, to Irish parents who were themselves born to Irish parents - half of them from Southern Ireland, as it happens!

My "problem" is that the likes of Livehead and Tuff Paddy either can't or won't recognise that. I presume this is because I am from the Northern end of the island and my politics are different from the majority of posters on this Board.

liaml

04/02/2007, 5:05 PM

youngirish

05/02/2007, 8:59 AM

Good united Ireland rugby result at the weekend eh lads?

gustavo

05/02/2007, 9:11 AM

EalingGreen has as much right to post here as anyone, I've always found his posts to be well constructed and reasoned unlike some others of those that oppose his views .

EalingGreen

05/02/2007, 9:11 AM

I believe EalingGreen considers himself a citizen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. In other words he is a British citizen and loyal subject of Her Majesty the Queen.

What's the point of arguing? Let's ask the horses mouth - EalingGreen have you an Irish Passport or a UK (AKA British) passport?

-liam

You really don't get it, Liam, do you? This is a football message board, not the debating chamber in Stormont.

So for the purposes of this debate (which in case you've forgotten, concerns the a proposal to merge the two Irish football teams into one), my Footballing Nationality is 100% "Norn Iron", which is all you need to know.

As such, I am as entitled to debate this matter as anyone else - arguably more than some, since at least I've tried to keep to the issues with my posts, unlike those narrow-minded posters who seem obsessed with framing the debate along lines of "Who are you?", rather than "What have you got to say?".

Anyhow, re. my Passport, it's in a drawer somewhere, but I doubt I'll be required to produce it on Tuesday evening when NI are playing Wales at football, so it'll stay in the drawer. But if you really want a clue, it's the same Passport I had when I was supporting the Ireland team against Wales at rugby yesterday. In fact, it was even in the same drawer...:rolleyes:

EalingGreen

05/02/2007, 9:13 AM

Good united Ireland rugby result at the weekend eh lads?

Indeed, but wrong thread. ;)

liaml

05/02/2007, 12:08 PM

You really don't get it, Liam, do you? This is a football message board, not the debating chamber in Stormont.

An excellent analogy, since you refuse to a straight answer to a straight question. :D

So for the purposes of this debate (which in case you've forgotten, concerns the a proposal to merge the two Irish football teams into one), my Footballing Nationality is 100% "Norn Iron", which is all you need to know.

LOL 'Footballing Nationality'! Hmm - how many 'Nationalities' do you actually have? A basketball 'Nationality'? A Golf 'Nationality'? Tiddlywinks?

Getting back to the debate. I cannot see it happening until there is a nationalist majority in the North. The NI fanbase, which derives the vast majority of it's support from the Unionist community would be totally opposed to it on nationalistic or political grounds. TBH only a Southern politician with no concept of the realities of the North would even have suggested it.

However. If or when it comes I believe there should be many more concessions made to the Unionist community than is currently in place for Rugby. Some suggestions I'd like to see would be

1. The IFA to take contol of Irish football, North and South. Headquarters in Belfast.
2. Both National anthems played before every game, same with flags and emblems.
3. Matches played in the North and in Dublin. On an equal basis.

As I said earlier though. Even with these changes it's still a no-goer.

-Liam

EalingGreen

05/02/2007, 1:30 PM

An excellent analogy, since you refuse to a straight answer to a straight question. :D

I refuse to answer, only because I really don't see what relevance it has to my support for NI what Passport I have. For the record, I know of NI fans who have UK Passports, some with Irish Passports (including one or two who are Unionists!) and some with both. The same goes for the players, afaik.

LOL 'Footballing Nationality'! Hmm - how many 'Nationalities' do you actually have? A basketball 'Nationality'? A Golf 'Nationality'? Tiddlywinks?

It's quite simple, really. In football, I support the NI team. In rugby, I support the Ireland team. In Cricket, I follow England (except for 1-day inernationals involving Ireland) and at the Olympics, I follow the GB and NI team. And I guess when it comes to golf, I cheer for Europe in the Ryder Cup.
The key to these allegiances are that I do not allow my personal political feelings to determine my sporting feelings, since I feel the two should be separated wherever possible.
Consequently, I follow the international team which most closely represents my own patch i.e. with competitors who come from the same place as I do, however defined by the individual sports. (I imagine this also explains why, for example, Ed Joyce can happily play for England in the cricket, or Brian Carney could play for the GB Rugby League team - they had no professional alternative closer to home)

The NI fanbase, which derives the vast majority of it's support from the Unionist community would be totally opposed to it on nationalistic or political grounds. TBH only a Southern politician with no concept of the realities of the North would even have suggested it.

Liam, I think I am somewhat closer to the NI fanbase than you. Of course many NI fans are opposed to a single team for nationalistic/political grounds. Others, like myself, are opposed because NI is my team and I simply don't wish to lose it, regardless of wherther any new team was genuinely "all-Ireland", or more successful. And many will be opposed for both those reasons.
[Indeed, there is evidence that a small part of the NI support even now is from a Nationalist background - 7% according to a Cain Study = 980 in a 14,000 crowd at Windsor. I have actually met a few of these myself. I've never asked them if they would prefer a single team over an NI team, but even if they answered "Yes", it wouldn't change my opinion of them. In fact, quite the contrary, since I greatly admire those who can subjugate their political feelings to the sporting ones, especially if they live in a community where their support for NI makes them a "minority within a minority"]
Anyhow, do not make the mistake of believing that "all NI fans are the same"!

However. If or when it comes I believe there should be many more concessions made to the Unionist community than is currently in place for Rugby. Some suggestions I'd like to see would be

1. The IFA to take contol of Irish football, North and South. Headquarters in Belfast.
2. Both National anthems played before every game, same with flags and emblems.
3. Matches played in the North and in Dublin. On an equal basis.

As I said earlier though. Even with these changes it's still a no-goer.

-Liam

I think your suggestions (above) for how a single team would operate are entirely reasonable, and if there was no way of preserving the NI team as it stands, then I would obviously have to consider giving my support to the new team.

But you're right that it's still a no-goer, and for two reasons, neither of which actually has anything to do with the feelings of fans, administrators etc in Ireland.
First, whilst NI and the Republic are separated politically, it will not happen, since FIFA, a body with more members than the UN(!), has never had an Association which straddles two separate political entities. Whereas, there are a number of examples where a single political entity may have more than one National Association. (Obviously the UK is one, but Denmark and the Faroes is another)
Second, even if we were to see a (politically) United Ireland, there is no guarantee this would mean the end of the IFA and the NI team.
After all, though Hong Kong reverted to PR China in 1997, it continues to field its own, separate team!

Anyhow, in the spirit of Football For All, if you're in Belfast and not San Marino tomorrow, why don't you consider popping along to Windsor Park? I'm not going myself, and it's a sell-out, but I might just be able to rustle you up a ticket. The match itself may be crap, but I think you'd be surprised at just how much the atmosphere has been transformed from even a decade ago.:)

liaml

05/02/2007, 1:56 PM

I refuse to answer, only because I really don't see what relevance it has to my support for NI what Passport I have. For the record, I know of NI fans who have UK Passports, some with Irish Passports (including one or two who are Unionists!) and some with both. The same goes for the players, afaik.

I didn't raise the matter of your nationality. You did.

I have no problem whatever with Ireland or Irishness. Why should I? I am an Irishman myself

Others in this thread then started a debate regarding this. This seemed pointless to me since all they had to do was ask you directly. You obviously feel uncomfortable with the question though so have refused to answer it. Fair enough.

Anyhow, in the spirit of Football For All, if you're in Belfast and not San Marino tomorrow, why don't you consider popping along to Windsor Park? I'm not going myself, and it's a sell-out, but I might just be able to rustle you up a ticket. The match itself may be crap, but I think you'd be surprised at just how much the atmosphere has been transformed from even a decade ago.:)

I just wouldn't feel comfortable I'm afraid. I was in Lavery's last year on a match night and there was a bunch of NI supporters just back from the match. A group of these supporters started singing loyalist songs eg The Billy Boys (up to our necks in fenian blood). I left pronto. To their credit a lot of the NI fans didn't look too happy about this either, however, it left me with the impression that things hadn't changed that much.

-Liam

EalingGreen

05/02/2007, 4:00 PM

I just wouldn't feel comfortable I'm afraid. I was in Lavery's last year on a match night and there was a bunch of NI supporters just back from the match. A group of these supporters started singing loyalist songs eg The Billy Boys (up to our necks in fenian blood). I left pronto. To their credit a lot of the NI fans didn't look too happy about this either, however, it left me with the impression that things hadn't changed that much.

-Liam

I'm genuinely sorry to hear that.

It would have been nice if the rest of the fans could have stopped it - something I've seen once or twice before, almost to the point of violence - but it's not always easy. And in any case, a group of possibly less-than-sober fans behaving so deplorably is something which Lavery's should be dealing with, whether on a matchday or otherwise.

Anyhow, I can assure you, I've not heard the Billy Boys/Sash or anything like it sung at Windsor in years - it simply doesn't happen. In fact, I wouldn't have extended the invitation if I thought anything like that would occur at the game.

When I've more time, maybe I'll look out a couple of recent eye-witness
accounts of matchday experiences by some Nationalists, including one by a former INLA prisoner, who had been exceptionally hard to persuade to go, but to his credit honestly admitted that the experience was nothing like he had expected (or remembered from years before).

P.S. I've no reason to hide the fact that I travel on a UK Passport. However, I've had cause recently (nothing sinister, I might add!) to consider applying for an Irish Republic Passport as well. Should it come about, this won't cause me any pain (other than the cost), since I've never believed that the mere possession of a piece of paper necessary for the crossing of international boundaries would change my identity, my politics, or how I see myself. Though it might change how others see me!

galwayhoop

06/02/2007, 2:46 PM

1. The IFA to take contol of Irish football, North and South. Headquarters in Belfast.
2. Both National anthems played before every game, same with flags and emblems.
3. Matches played in the North and in Dublin. On an equal basis.

delete the words 'North and South' from point 1 and 'and in Dublin' from point 3 and this is the blueprint for what the IFA should be doing for the 'Norn Iron' team. the team would therefore be representitive of both communities and not just one as it is now.

as regards the above points in relation to a united irish team as i've said before and will say again - i would in no way identify with a national team that sang alligence to HMtQ as part of it's national anthem and would not identify with a team playing under the union flag.

as regards the IFA representing a potential all ireland team - no problem .... as long as we're still allowed to use the granny rule :D :D

Not Brazil

06/02/2007, 2:59 PM

i would in no way identify with a national team that sang alligence to HMtQ as part of it's national anthem and would not identify with a team playing under the union flag.

The Northern Ireland team does not play under the Union Flag.

In fact, the Union Flag which traditionally flies at Windsor Park is removed for Northern Ireland international games.

EalingGreen

06/02/2007, 3:36 PM

delete the words 'North and South' from point 1 and 'and in Dublin' from point 3 and this is the blueprint for what the IFA should be doing for the 'Norn Iron' team. the team would therefore be representitive of both communities and not just one as it is now.
as regards the above points in relation to a united irish team as i've said before and will say again - i would in no way identify with a national team that sang alligence to HMtQ as part of it's national anthem and would not identify with a team playing under the union flag.

as regards the IFA representing a potential all ireland team - no problem .... as long as we're still allowed to use the granny rule :D :D

How much football have you actually seen in NI, GalwayHoop?

The fact is, when measured in terms of participation at playing, managing, coaching, officiating and administering levels, football has been much more successful than the other major two team sports - Gaelic Football and Rugby in achieving wide cross-community participation (though rugby is making valiant and efficient efforts to broaden its appeal beyond its traditional middle-class/Grammar-school/ Unionist roots)
Every week of the season, players of all ages and at all levels from a variety of clubs, which may be predominantly one community or the other, or entirely mixed, can meet and compete in Leagues and Cups throughout just about every area of NI.
Indeed, in many instances, football matches provide the only opportunity some people get to meet and mix with people from "the other side".
Of course, that is not to say that there are not tensions associated (this is NI, after all), but even at the highest level, the fact that clubs like Donegal Celtic, Newry City and Cliftonville from predominantly Catholic areas can come up against clubs like Linfield or Glentoran, gives the lie to your ignorant (prejudiced?) statement above (emboldened).

Even as I post, the NI U-21 team is playing Wales (and getting stuffed, as it happens!), with a squad that is entirely mixed:
http://www.irishfa.com/the-ifa/news/2747/millar-announces-u21-squad/
(I hate to play the "name game", but it's safe to say that both communities are equally represented).

Similarly, the senior team is playing later tonight, with an equally mixed squad whereby, for instance, when former GAA-player Chris Baird from Rasharkin was forced to drop out, he was replaced by another former GAA stalwart, Sean Webb from Dungannon.

And, of course, the IFA has been recognised by FIFA, UEFA and other respected bodies for the quality of cross-community work it does:
http://www.irishfa.com/grassroots/football-for-all/
If football in NI was "representative of only one community", do you really think the IFA's Football For All programme would be endorsed and supported by e.g. the NI Community Relations Council, the Sports Council for NI or the EU Programme for Peace and Reconciliation?

Finally, I would not expect you to "identify with" a team which had GSTQ as its anthem - then again, you're from Galway! However, it's not too much to ask of people who don't support that anthem at NI matches, such as myself, to show a minimum of respect. After all, it's only the same respect I show at Ireland rugby matches for The Soldiers Song at Lansdowne - an anthem which is as alien to me as GSTQ is to you.

Oh and one last thing, they don't fly the Union Flag at Windsor for NI matches, so in this, as well as many other things, you're talking through your hoop!

galwayhoop

06/02/2007, 6:22 PM

more of the twenty minute of ramblings from EG where the post bears little relevance to that quoted.

answer me a question:
is GSTQ played prior to international games in WP?

if the answer is yes then answer me another:
does GSTQ represent the nationalist community?

was that my original point??

and another:
does the fact that cliftonville et al play in the IL alter the fact that a very large number (not all) of nationalists feel alienated from the Norn Iron team?

note: i was unaware that the union flag was removed from WP for internationals however my point is that i would not feel represented by it - and this is still a valid, if not a totally obvious point. and as said here before i am fully aware that you and those from your community do not feel represented by my flag. a fact and one which i do not dispute.

now can you tell me where in my post that i was prejudiced - i merely pointed out that the current situation with regard to symbolism and anthems at NI games is not representitive of both communities. if you say that it is - then it is you sir who is talking out of your hoop.

you are so hopeful of finding prejudice that you try to invent it out of thin air. if you want to find prejudice (and ignorance) it is much easier found on that other site you post on

now i am off to watch the footie on the telly

kingdom hoop

07/02/2007, 1:20 AM

Finally, I would not expect you to "identify with" a team which had GSTQ as its anthem - then again, you're from Galway! However, it's not too much to ask of people who don't support that anthem at NI matches, such as myself, to show a minimum of respect. After all, it's only the same respect I show at Ireland rugby matches for The Soldiers Song at Lansdowne - an anthem which is as alien to me as GSTQ is to you.

i think that you must be dreaming, your british colonial dreams, dreaming of ridding the world from all ghastly tongues save the queen's one. :rolleyes:

its Amhr�n na bhFiann, or, since your so keen on your politically correct acronyms, it is ANB thats bellowed(well, except for david humphreys) out at our matches. you talk about respect respect respect and more respect, and then you dont respect the anthem, man.:(
the opportunities for jibes/harsh pointed remarks here are bountiful, but i'll do a robbie on it and pass up the chance for a goal and an in your face celebration. i'll now remove myself to some politics forum where i can moan about the identity crises of NI, sl�n.:)

Lionel Ritchie

07/02/2007, 7:18 AM

i think that you must be dreaming, your british colonial dreams, dreaming of ridding the world from all ghastly tongues save the queen's one. :rolleyes:

its Amhr�n na bhFiann, or, since your so keen on your politically correct acronyms, it is ANB thats bellowed(well, except for david humphreys) out at our matches. you talk about respect respect respect and more respect, and then you dont respect the anthem, man.:(
the opportunities for jibes/harsh pointed remarks here are bountiful, but i'll do a robbie on it and pass up the chance for a goal and an in your face celebration. i'll now remove myself to some politics forum where i can moan about the identity crises of NI, sl�n.:)

Kingdom -the thing that apparently just whooshed over your head was the point EG was making I think.

The IRFU predate the foundation of this state, the writing of Soldiers Song -which I'm guessing you know well happens to be more or less the English translation of ANB - and it's adoption as our anthem.

liaml

07/02/2007, 9:14 AM

Kingdom -the thing that apparently just whooshed over your head was the point EG was making I think.

The IRFU predate the foundation of this state, the writing of Soldiers Song -which I'm guessing you know well happens to be more or less the English translation of ANB - and it's adoption as our anthem.

Lionel - I think the thing that just whooshed over your head was that Kingdom was simply pointing out that it would respectful to call the anthem by it's proper name. Personally I don't give a ****e what it's called.

-Liam

Lionel Ritchie

07/02/2007, 9:46 AM

The pedantry about names is a sideshow. I believe the crux of the matter is that Northern Rugby supporters of a particular tradition are, if not happy, resigned to coming down to Dublin to stand under the tricolour and listen to Amhr�n Na Fhian put out as "their" anthem -which it patently isn't.

Yet they stand up for it, maybe or maybe not grit their teeth and cross their fingers and when it's all over they get on with supporting the team on the field.

Many of us seem to think it's not only reasonable but downright proper that this is the case BUT then baulk at the very notion of a nationalist having to do similar at Windsor.

liaml

07/02/2007, 9:59 AM

The pedantry about names is a sideshow.

Agreed. And I believe Kingdom was pointing out that if you're going to be a pedant, it would be best to be a "fair" pedant. This obviously "whooshed" over your head.

I believe the crux of the matter is that Northern Rugby supporters of a particular tradition are, if not happy, resigned to coming down to Dublin to stand under the tricolour and listen to Amhr�n Na Fhian put out as "their" anthem -which it patently isn't.

Yet they stand up for it, maybe or maybe not grit their teeth and cross their fingers and when it's all over they get on with supporting the team on the field.

Many of us seem to think it's not only reasonable but downright proper that this is the case BUT then baulk at the very notion of a nationalist having to do similar at Windsor.

"Amhr�n Na Fhian " is in no way an inclusive anthem. Neither is GSTQ. I'm interested in the veracity of your claims though - does anybody here feel that "Amhr�n Na Fhian " or GSTQ are inclusive anthems and shouldn't be replaced?

-Liam

Lionel Ritchie

07/02/2007, 11:13 AM

Agreed. And I believe Kingdom was pointing out that if you're going to be a pedant, it would be best to be a "fair" pedant. This obviously "whooshed" over your head.
Not at all. I merely cut to the substantive issue ...like I said and we appear to agree -The names thing is a sideshow.

"Amhr�n Na Fhian " is in no way an inclusive anthem. Neither is GSTQ. I'm interested in the veracity of your claims though - does anybody here feel that "Amhr�n Na Fhian " or GSTQ are inclusive anthems and shouldn't be replaced?

-Liam ANF/SS is an inclusive anthem for football as things stand -but hardly for Rugby. What I sometimes notice with my fellow southerners is a common lack of empathy in relation to the rugby situation AND a common expectation that in an All-Ireland football scenario the same arrangements would and should prevail.

GSTQ is not an inclusive anthem -but even if NI/IFA got rid of it for matches -those willing and wishing to knock them will find something else ...Union Jacks for example (I counted 2 at last nights match + one more union jack based banner where the normally red strips were green ...and even if all 15,000 there brought one -it's their country TOO.)
Thereafter anything with a red hand would be knit picked and so on and so on...

liaml

07/02/2007, 11:49 AM

ANF/SS is an inclusive anthem for football as things stand -but hardly for Rugby.

As it stands an anthem which alienates over 1 million people on this Island and is a barrier to integration cannot be seen as inclusive.

GSTQ is not an inclusive anthem -but even if NI/IFA got rid of it for matches -those willing and wishing to knock them will find something else ...Union Jacks for example (I counted 2 at last nights match + one more union jack based banner where the normally red strips were green ...and even if all 15,000 there brought one -it's their country TOO.)
Thereafter anything with a red hand would be knit picked and so on and so on...

With all due respect you're living in the past Lionel. Maybe 10 years ago but things have changed. Many more would applaud moves to a more inclusive society than would knock it. And if you're going to dwell on the knockers you'll never get anywhere. Your assertion that "Amhr�n Na Fhian " is an inclusive anthem, together with your bizarre obsession with counting flags at matches probably says more about your own sensibilities in this regard than you'd like.

-Liam

youngirish

07/02/2007, 11:54 AM

EalingGreen

07/02/2007, 12:35 PM

Regarding the naming of the Irish National Anthem, I used the English version for one single reason: I don't speak Irish, so I have to look up how to spell it each time.
And even when I do, I get confused, since some people like Liam L and Lionel R spell it "Amhran Na Fhian" (abbreviated to ANF), whilst Kingdom Hoop spells it "Amhran na bhFiann" (ABF).
And not only that, but I don't know where the accent key is on my keyboard, so I can't add the accent (fada?) to the first bit, its absence no doubt causing another diplomatic incident!
(Plus I thought that seeing as this is an English Language site, perhaps it wasn't too much of an insult to use the English Version)
Anyhow, if you let me know which version I should use, I'll try to comply in future. :cool:

Getting back to more substantive issues, Lionel and Liam expressed my views on Anthems rather well. The Irish anthem does nothing for me in either language - indeed I slightly resent it when the IRFU plays it (twice) at Lansdowne, since it fails to acknowledge that the rugby team is made up of players from two Nationalities.
Nonetheless, I am there for the 80 minutes of rugby, not the rather tedious ceremonies which preface the proceedings, so my attitude while the music plays is "Stand Up, Shut Up, Sit Down".
I therefore think it consistent, and not unreasonable, merely to ask that football supporters at Windsor do the same, irrespective of their private, political convictions.
On which point, I would add that when it comes to GSTQ at Windsor, I am no proponent of it, either, never mind Nationalists.
As a tune, I think it an uninspiring dirge, ditto for its effect on the players. I have long wanted it replaced by a peculiarly "Norn Iron" anthem, whether Danny Boy, or something commissioned*.
But when it comes to it, I suppose I am agnostic about the whole thing, if for no other reason than that half the time, I'm still downstairs in the bogs for a last-minute draining of the bladder, so I don't even hear the bloody thing!

P.S. Why are David Humphries (and other Ulster players) sometimes the subject of comment about their not singing the Irish Anthem in Dublin?
An example was from earlier, where Kindom Hoop posted:
"...it is ANB thats bellowed (well, except for david humphreys) out at our matches"
I've never seen them to be disrespectful. Would it be better if they sang the version in their own lingua franca (English), whilst their teammates sang it in their National Language (Irish?). Or should they be forced to learn and sing the Irish version? What happens if they're tone deaf? Should they be required to mouth the words silently, for fear that President McAleese might be offended at being saluted off-key?

Curiously enough, I've never heard even the most "staunch" NI fan ever comment on the fact that half the NI football team doesn't sing GSTQ at Windsor...

* - "Ulster's Call"? Nah, maybe not! ;)

EalingGreen

07/02/2007, 1:17 PM

answer me a question:
is GSTQ played prior to international games in WP?

Yes.

if the answer is yes then answer me another:
does GSTQ represent the nationalist community?

No, it "represents" the Northern Ireland team, rather imperfectly, I would add. You see, those Unionists who are anti-Monarchist (I might have said "Republican", but that would be confusing!) do not associate with GSTQ. Nor do non-Christians like myself, since GSTQ is technically a hymn to God, asking that He protect Her Majesty.
But you know what? Despite my reservations posted elsewhere, I couldn't actually care less, since I try to put my own personal political convictions to one side, all the better to enjoy the main event.

was that my original point??

and another:
does the fact that cliftonville et al play in the IL alter the fact that a very large number (not all) of nationalists feel alienated from the Norn Iron team?

No, it doesn't alter that fact. But my point is that if people are so confined by their political feelings when it comes to sporting affairs, then I would guess that no particular arrangements for a partitionist football team would ever meet with their approval.
In the end, I hope that GSTQ is replaced at the earliest opportunity, as a consequence of pressure by the NI support. I don't think it reasonable for non-fans, who have alienated themselves for extraneous reasons (imo), to set the Agenda for the NI team.

note: i was unaware that the union flag was removed from WP for internationals however my point is that i would not feel represented by it - and this is still a valid, if not a totally obvious point. and as said here before i am fully aware that you and those from your community do not feel represented by my flag. a fact and one which i do not dispute.

I do not understand what you're getting at with your attempt to "justify" your ignorance. It might have been easier just to post that you were mistaken about the flag.

now can you tell me where in my post that i was prejudiced - i merely pointed out that the current situation with regard to symbolism and anthems at NI games is not representitive of both communities. if you say that it is - then it is you sir who is talking out of your hoop.

I will accept your point about the anthem (though for different reasons from yours). Now tell me, what "symbolism" is it that disturbs you?

you are so hopeful of finding prejudice that you try to invent it out of thin air. if you want to find prejudice (and ignorance) it is much easier found on that other site you post on

The tone of your posts is prejudiced against the NI team. I don't think I have ever posted anything which is similarly negative towards the ROI team, except when addressing issues which impact directly on my own team, such as our losing players to the FAI, or Ahern's call for an end to my own team's existence. (Btw, I don't consider e.g. my digs at Staunton, or the Cyprus result etc to be "negative", just part of the normal banter between rival teams)

Tbf, Hoop, you have set me thinking further on this topic. I'm now going to send of a letter of complaint to the IFA about their sinister use of symbolism and imagery which does not "represent" me as a Unionist.
First off, I dislike the fact that the team plays in green, a colour long associated with Irish Republicanism. I demand that they revert to the original "St.Patricks Blue".
Second, I don't like the IFA's Crest. That Celtic Cross is far too partisan for my liking - why even the very word "Celtic" alienates me. And whilst they're at it, they could remove those perfidious shamrocks from it, too.
And as for the IFA asking FIFA that NI players be allowed to use Irish Passports, when a British one is more than good enough for them...
Far too much appeasement of Nationalists, I say! :eek:

EalingGreen

07/02/2007, 1:22 PM

My take on this is very simple. No united Ireland football team until we have a united Ireland and that (if ever) is a long way off. Why try to join two separate countries together into one? FIFA wouldn't allow it and nor should they.

If Ireland was one nation governed by one body then all the sh*te about national anthems, flags etc would sort itself out. Until that happens I'd rather just stick to supporting the republic and not the republic with a bit of the UK attached to it thanks very much.

Indeed. And how ironic that the cause of Irish "Unity" is actually much better served by such a tolerant attitude, than by the rantings of those extreme Republicans who demand a United Ireland/Brits Out etc at the earliest opportunity.

I hope you enjoy the game against San Marino this evening, YI.

liaml

07/02/2007, 2:00 PM

Indeed. And how ironic that the cause of Irish "Unity" is actually much better served by such a tolerant attitude, than by the rantings of those extreme Republicans who demand a United Ireland/Brits Out etc at the earliest opportunity.

I hope you enjoy the game against San Marino this evening, YI.

I take it YoungIrish won't be out supporting Ireland against England at Croker in the six nations in two weeks time. That's a pity.

-liam

Lionel Ritchie

07/02/2007, 2:10 PM

Originally Posted by Lionel Ritchie
ANF/SS is an inclusive anthem for football as things stand -but hardly for Rugby.
As it stands an anthem which alienates over 1 million people on this Island and is a barrier to integration cannot be seen as inclusive.
-Liam
Liam -you're either not reading my posts or you're misinterpreting them.
ANF/SS is an inclusive anthem for football as things stand ...means that Football on this island is organised along the same lines as the political jurisdictions. There would be few if indeed any attending an Irish soccer match in Dublin as home supporters who would claim the flag or anthem isn't theirs.

Rugby on the other hand is organised on an all-Ireland/All-Island basis internationally and domestically yet the ceremonial trappings are entirely those of the larger southern state.

IF football were to be organised on a similar basis I believe I'm right in saying most people down here would expect similar arrangments to pervade. That's not to say most people wouldn't be in for a hard landing ...just that's what they'd expect.

With all due respect you're living in the past Lionel. Maybe 10 years ago but things have changed. Many more would applaud moves to a more inclusive society than would knock it. And if you're going to dwell on the knockers you'll never get anywhere. Your assertion that "Amhr�n Na Fhian " is an inclusive anthem, together with your bizarre obsession with counting flags at matches probably says more about your own sensibilities in this regard than you'd like.
-Liam ...okay ...not only are you not reading my posts -you're apparently not reading anyone elses either. Never mind ten years ago -there's 9 or 10 pages to this two week old thread -pick one page, any of them, at random -and you'll find someone bitching about Union Jacks at Windsor park. ...and yeah I DID count the Union Jacks at WP last night because they were notable only for their rarety so it was pretty easy 1 flag, 2 flags -done.

youngirish

07/02/2007, 2:14 PM

I take it YoungIrish won't be out supporting Ireland against England at Croker in the six nations in two weeks time. That's a pity.

-liam

I'd rather be supporting the Republic of Ireland against them but I'll make do with what we have. Rugby is balls anyway. Only toffs play it where I'm from. I'm far more interested in football.

liaml

07/02/2007, 2:50 PM

Liam -you're either not reading my posts or you're misinterpreting them.
ANF/SS is an inclusive anthem for football as things stand ...means that Football on this island is organised along the same lines as the political jurisdictions. There would be few if indeed any attending an Irish soccer match in Dublin as home supporters who would claim the flag or anthem isn't theirs.

No. It is you who is not reading other peoples posts. Once again my statement was.

As it stands an anthem which alienates over 1 million people on this Island and is a barrier to integration and cannot be seen as inclusive.

This _entire_ thread is in relation to an all Ireland soccer team and in that respect the national anthem is simply not inclusive. You may feel the anthem is inclusive (sometimes, in relation to soccer). I do not.

...okay ...not only are you not reading my posts -you're apparently not reading anyone elses either. Never mind ten years ago -there's 9 or 10 pages to this two week old thread -pick one page, any of them, at random -and you'll find someone bitching about Union Jacks at Windsor park. ...and yeah I DID count the Union Jacks at WP last night because they were notable only for their rarety so it was pretty easy 1 flag, 2 flags -done.

Sorry I do not understand the point you are trying to make here. Are you saying the country (North and South) has not progressed because of a few people "Bitching" on this message board? I would beg to differ - political events over the last 10 years would appear to refute your thesis.

Lionel Ritchie

07/02/2007, 3:54 PM

This _entire_ thread is in relation to an all Ireland soccer team and in that respect the national anthem is simply not inclusive. You may feel the anthem is inclusive (sometimes, in relation to soccer).

If we're talking about a hypothetical All-Ireland team I agree with you -the Irish anthem isn't particularly inclusive.
If there ever is an All-Ireland team I reckon it'll just be dispensed with -though sadly it'll probably be replaced by some dirge written by Phil Coulter and performed by w@nklife.

I think the anthem is fine so long as the team is fielded by the Dublin based FAI and on paper only represents the 26 county state.

liaml

07/02/2007, 4:12 PM

I reckon it'll just be dispensed with -though sadly it'll probably be replaced by some dirge written by Phil Coulter and performed by w@nklife

Not sure about that, with Coulter coming from Derry the IFA'd probably launch an appeal :p

galwayhoop

07/02/2007, 5:32 PM

Originally Posted by liaml
1. The IFA to take contol of Irish football, North and South. Headquarters in Belfast.
2. Both National anthems played before every game, same with flags and emblems.
3. Matches played in the North and in Dublin. On an equal basis.

delete the words 'North and South' from point 1 and 'and in Dublin' from point 3 and this is the blueprint for what the IFA should be doing for the 'Norn Iron' team. the team would therefore be representitive of both communities and not just one as it is now.

as regards the above points in relation to a united irish team as i've said before and will say again - i would in no way identify with a national team that sang alligence to HMtQ as part of it's national anthem and would not identify with a team playing under the union flag.

as regards the IFA representing a potential all ireland team - no problem .... as long as we're still allowed to use the granny rule :D

Originally Posted by liaml with my alterations as listed above:

1. The IFA to take contol of Irish football, Headquarters in Belfast.
2. Both National anthems played before every game, same with flags and emblems.
3. Matches played in the North

ok so as not to re hash and disect your last post the above is what you based your assertation that i was probably being prejudiced on.

is it prejudiced - i think not.

there are people in the north who are just as irish as me - and do not feel british one dot*. do most, if any, of these people feel represented by a team who sing GStQ as their anthem and play under the Ulster (6 counties) flag. No.

if NI was to 'appeal' (for want of a better word) to both sides of the NI community then, IMO, it would need cross-community symbolism (incl. flags) and anthems - although it could alternatively play neither anthem and go with 'Danny Boy' or some other song which would unite the people as opposed to divide them.

in fairness the nationalist community takes up a large portion of the inhabitants of NI and again, imo, should be able to identify with the football team which represents the provence. with both communities having parity of esteem and recognised equally in law should the symbols of the state and anthem not represent both sections of the community - as happened in south africa following the abolition of apartheid (sp?).

am i prejudiced against the NI team or the IFA - don't think so but the bit where i said that i would have no problem with the IFA taking charge of an all ireland team must surely have driven you to this conclusion :rolleyes:

as regards your letter to the IFA, maybe you should think of a different name for yourself before you write it ;)

*there are also those who feel total affinity with all things british. and i respect their opinion even if it is a total polar opinion to my own.

lopez

09/02/2007, 12:12 PM

Tbf, Hoop, you have set me thinking further on this topic. I'm now going to send of a letter of complaint to the IFA about their sinister use of symbolism and imagery which does not "represent" me as a Unionist.
First off, I dislike the fact that the team plays in green, a colour long associated with Irish Republicanism. I demand that they revert to the original "St.Patricks Blue".
Second, I don't like the IFA's Crest. That Celtic Cross is far too partisan for my liking - why even the very word "Celtic" alienates me. And whilst they're at it, they could remove those perfidious shamrocks from it, too.
And as for the IFA asking FIFA that NI players be allowed to use Irish Passports, when a British one is more than good enough for them...
Far too much appeasement of Nationalists, I say!Was that was an attempt at irony? :rolleyes: I would have thought that's quite a common complaint amongst more than a few 'Unionists.' Replace 'St Patrick's Blue' with 'Royal Blue' and you've got it. You'd also have to get rid of the Red Hand as well, as it too is not very Finchley or Surrey either.

EalingGreen

09/02/2007, 6:09 PM

You'd also have to get rid of the Red Hand as well, as it too is not very Finchley or Surrey either.

Since when were Finchley or Surrey in NI?

In reponse to GH's demand to remove any symbolism attached to the NI team which he considers "Unionist", I was making the point that it would therefore be consistent also to remove all "Nationalist" symbols, as a quid pro quo.

I don't think even he was suggesting the relocation of the NI team to the South East of England. What a strange idea. :confused:

EalingGreen

09/02/2007, 6:31 PM

there are people in the north who are just as irish as me - and do not feel british one dot*. do most, if any, of these people feel represented by a team who sing GStQ as their anthem and play under the Ulster (6 counties) flag. No.

if NI was to 'appeal' (for want of a better word) to both sides of the NI community then, IMO, it would need cross-community symbolism (incl. flags) and anthems - although it could alternatively play neither anthem and go with 'Danny Boy' or some other song which would unite the people as opposed to divide them.

in fairness the nationalist community takes up a large portion of the inhabitants of NI and again, imo, should be able to identify with the football team which represents the provence. with both communities having parity of esteem and recognised equally in law should the symbols of the state and anthem not represent both sections of the community - as happened in south africa following the abolition of apartheid (sp?).

am i prejudiced against the NI team or the IFA - don't think so but the bit where i said that i would have no problem with the IFA taking charge of an all ireland team must surely have driven you to this conclusion :rolleyes:

There are people in Spain, such as the Catalans, Basques, Galicians etc, who do not, to varying degrees, identify with the Spanish state and by extension, the Spanish National football team. Indeed, the desire for autonomy or independence etc is replicated similarly in many other countries around the world.

I do not hear you, or more importantly, FIFA, demanding that the respective FA's modify their flags, anthems, symbolism etc so as to incorporate disaffected minorities, so why do you demand this for NI?

Quite simply, the principles demanded by FIFA are that no National Football Association should do anything which explicity prohibits or excludes anyone, by virtue of race, religion, colour, disability etc from choosing to support the national team. As such, people in NI may not like GSTQ or the NI flag, but no-one is being forced to like it; such matters may simply be disregarded.

In that respect, your chosen analogy of South Africa is a good one, if not for the reason you think. In South African sport, many people (indeed the great majority) were formerly excluded by law from being allowed to represent their country. Whereas, there is no such prohibition from representing NI at football, nor ever has been.

(Still, at least your choice of apartheid SA, rather than e.g. Spain for comparative purposes with NI, provides clear evidence of your prejudice in how you see all things "Norn Iron")

galwayhoop

09/02/2007, 7:44 PM

again ealing you talk a good talk but i find your comparisons very interesting (but not for the reasons you think).

now lets revert to the original point of the thread 'an All Ireland team' and
lets, like you have already done, use spain as our comparison.

spain: one large majority (those who associate with being spanish) and the minority (those who do not associate with all things spanish) the catalans, basques...etc. a 'hypotetical' united ireland team would represent the entire island where one community would vastly outnumber the other i.e. those who see themselves as irish with a massive majority over those who see themselves as british. so by your arguement there would be no need for the tricolour or anthem to be modified to represent the disenting minority!!

never would have thought of spain so thanks for that ealing!

:D

BTW i didn't 'demand' the removal of symbolism of unionism in relation to NI but merely stated that it is unfair to have one community represented and not the other. espically with one community representing c.53% and the other c.44%. hardly comparable with spain i would think :rolleyes: parity of esteem for both communities. what i suggested (pasted below for ease of reference) was that it would be a fairer situation if both had their own communities represented (symbolism and anthems) or else new symbolism which represents both equally.

as posted above:
....it would need cross-community symbolism (incl. flags) and anthems - although it could alternatively play neither anthem and go with 'Danny Boy' or some other song which would unite the people as opposed to divide them. ...

PS - your attempts at spin are becoming tedious and your arguements are getting weaker and weaker. the spanish comparison is verging on the ridiculous