Dermot Ahern's comments on an all Ireland side [Archive] - Page 2

EalingGreen

26/01/2007, 12:08 PM

EalingGreen I have no aspirations whatsoever to have a United Ireland team, probably even less so than yourself, so on this we agree. To me Northern Ireland is a completely separate country. We might aswell merge with Brazil as far as I'm concerned and get some decent players and fit chicks with it.

What is funny though is the paranoia and suspicion that the ROI and it's team are regarded with on that NI site. The derogatory comments passed about us are amusing but deluded.

As for Dermot Ahern the man is an idiot as I've said earlier and should know better than to be stirring up sh*t on this matter.

Appreciate your first and third points, YI.

Re. the second, I agree with you that there is "paranoia and suspicion" to varying degrees amongst the NI support. However, you might not appreciate why this should be so (whether justified or not).

For one thing, the majority of ROI fans that we tend to meet on a day-to-day basis are inevitably from "the North". Now, at the risk of repeating a huge generalisation, or stereotype, Northern ROI fans are often different from Southern ones. In my experience, many (most?) Southern ROI fans are OK in their attitude to the NI team (like yourself), usually wishing it well, even to the extent of it being their "second team". Which is all fair enough.
However, certain Northern ROI fans are sometimes very different i.e. their allegiance is more than just a preference or affinity for a team, it is also a very definite statement against our team. (I'll not even go into the political shi t that often goes with it, since life's too short)

Second, in more settled times, at least, the more reasonable NI fans might not be totally averse to a new, united team so long as it was just that: "new" and "united". But I have to say, whether out of malice, ignorance or simply not having thought about it, the unspoken implication of ROI-supporting proponents of a single team is that it would be the existing ROI team (or "Ireland" as it is invariably, but erroneously referred to), with a few NI players added to the squad.
But for anyone who knows his/her sporting history, Belfast has traditionally been the "Soccer Capital of Ireland" over the 125 years of organised football on the island, as evidenced by the IFA's recent centenary. As such, matches ought to be played equally in Belfast as Dublin and there is no good reason why the Association HQ should not be up North, either. But would that happen? Would it fcuk!
Besides, we have a record of qualifying for World Cups etc when Jack O'Charlton was just a long-necked knacker in a Leeds United shirt. We're immensely proud of that and will not discard that history lightly.

Third, whenever there is a call for a single team, it is almost always from someone in the FAI/ROI camp, usually most vocally at a time when the ROI team is not doing so well and/or the NI team is doing OK. Examples of the call were often to be heard in e.g. the mid 1980's, but they weren't so loud three or four years back* when we were awful and couldn't buy a goal, never mind a victory. This severely ****es me off (for one) and hardly reassures me of the bona fides of those demanding to merge.

Finally, the issue is especially sensitive at the moment, due to the thorny issue of player eligibility. Now I think most reasonable NI fans would accept that if an NI-born player prefers to opt for the ROI, then that should be his prerogative. However, it is something else indeed if that player were to switch from representing NI as a result of being "tapped up", even induced, especially where that player had previously come up through the NI youth system and had been settled as an NI player.
Worst of all, imo, is the fact that it is only players from one community to which this applies, the effect of which would be to end up as the NI team being solely the preserve of the other community, which no-one amongst the support wants.
Of course, this is never something which is easy to prove, but there is clear evidence of it having gone on e.g from Chris Baird and Kieran McKenna and when you consider just how thin our resources are at the best of times, this is something which poses an enormous threat to our well-being as an international team.

Anyhow, there are other issues and complications, but these seem to me to be the most pertinent.

* - It was only October 2004 when Fran Rooney told the following "joke" at a function the night before the ROI v Faroes game.

Fran�s Faux Pas.

TEACHER: Johnny, what does your Dad do after work?

LITTLE JOHNNY: He�s a carpenter and when he comes home from work, he goes out to fix up things for the old people.

TEACHER: Well, he�s a fine example to the community. And Tommy, what does your Dad do?

LITTLE TOMMY: He�s an electrician and when he comes home from work, he also goes out to help the old people.

TEACHER: Another fine example to the community. So Billy, what does your daddy do?

LITTLE BILLY: My Dad�s a stripper in a gay bar and when he comes home at night, he usually brings a few other men home with him and they disappear into the back room.

TEACHER: Stop it. Stop it. Come up here, Billy. Is your Dad really a stripper in a gay bar?

LITTLE BILLY: No teacher. But I wasn�t going to tell that lot that he plays for Northern Ireland.

I don't know where Rooney is these days, but I wonder has he heard some of our comments after Nicosia? ("Imagine losing 5-2 to Cyprus. What would the score have been had it been the whole of Cyprus?" ;) )

On which note, I shall wish you all well against (the undivided) Republic of San Marino...:D

EalingGreen

26/01/2007, 12:17 PM

Well tbh it's pretty impossible to keep politics out of a subject like this. If there was no politics involved I don't see why anyone would want to merge in the first place. The only reason I'd want us to merge is because it's a huge step closer to a United Ireland. That's my personal view.

I agree that politics and international football are to a certain extent inseparable.

But why are your reasons for wanting a merger political, rather than footballing? Surely football should be organised so as best to serve football, rather than politics (though Dermot Aherne obviously thinks otherwise, at least when facing an election).

And shouldn't a united Ireland be the precourser to a united team, not the other way round?

I appreciate your frankness on the topic, but can't you see that football fans whose personal political convictions might be different, are going to be hacked off by this? And if football specifically and sport generally should be about anything, it should be about bringing together people who have differences, not emphasising or widening the divide.

lopez

26/01/2007, 1:35 PM

LOL: I just loooove this matey 'your our nearest rivals' claptrap. Where does it stem from? The IFA split? The fact we call ourselves 'Ireland'? The 1993 international when the FAI sought a change of venue? 'Poaching' players?

The thing is the IFA have been turned over far more by their fellow 'British' associations and yet there isn't anywhere near the animosity to them that there is to the FAI. Change of venues? The Scottish FA - for some reason or other - requested a change of venue to Hampden Park every two years for most of the seventies? England and Wales did likewise between 72 and 75 and again in 1981 (I think they just refused to turn up, and the IFA to their credit declined 'a neutral venue in, erm, England or Wales') :rolleyes: . And then who was it that cut off the IFA's cash cow? The FAI? Who are the ones that talk about a UK team when they fail to qualify for a World Cup? The FAI No! When England visit, it's all lets have a meeting between the two most maligned group of supporters in the world. Rivalry? Nurse my sides!

The desire for an all-Ireland team is down to politics. I personally would like to see an all-Ireland team because I'd like to see an all-Ireland state. Simple as that. I guess Mr Aherne is the same. Don't like it? Tough!

As for '20% free'? We're getting that 20% free already and the contributors of the 56 pages on OWC can write another 56 pages but that's not going to change. Anyway, I think it's laughable hypocrisy to bleat on about 'poaching' by a 'foreign association' - more accusations of 'tapping up' and 'inducements', but yet no evidence- and using 'Ireland', when the IFA have picked players who have never lived in the 6C nor have any family connection with it, and also continued to use the name 'Ireland' itself long after players from the 26C stopped playing for them in 1950. As for the laughable suggestion that the FAI only picks Taigs, FFS, is that a serious statement? :D That if George Best came along and said he was available, the FAI would turn round and tell him we only pick Catholics? What happened with Alan Kernaghan? The nun with the gift for sniffing out prods was on leave that day? I tell you what EG, it's nice to see you haven't lost your fine skill in 'hablando cojones.'

galwayhoop

26/01/2007, 1:57 PM

And if football specifically and sport generally should be about anything, it should be about bringing together people who have differences, not emphasising or widening the divide.

sounds good in theory. but a utopian viewpoint that has little relevance in the reality of international football

SaucyJack

26/01/2007, 1:59 PM

"The thing is the IFA have been turned over far more by their fellow 'British' associations and yet there isn't anywhere near the animosity to them that there is to the FAI."

good point Lopez, the enmity from their fans seems to be about more than football, hence the terms for the Republic, "Evil Empire", the "Dark Side", "Enemy territory"...and they wonder why kids from Nationalist backgrounds opt for the Republic.....

Paddy Garcia

26/01/2007, 1:59 PM

Paddy Garcia

26/01/2007, 2:11 PM

And if football specifically and sport generally should be about anything, it should be about bringing together people who have differences, not emphasising or widening the divide.

:eek:

Not Brazil

26/01/2007, 2:37 PM

The only reason I'd want us to merge is because it's a huge step closer to a United Ireland. That's my personal view.

:eek:

eirebhoy

26/01/2007, 2:52 PM

:eek:
eh? Do you think Ahern wants this so we have a better chance of making a World cup? There's a reason the views on this forum are in complete contrast to those on the Northern Ireland forum.

EalingGreen

26/01/2007, 3:02 PM

As for my "less than positive comments about the ROI* football team", actually, I'm positive they're my comments. Care to discuss any of them specifically?

I neither welcome or don't welcome your views. I am just surprised that someone has time in their life to contribute to the forum of a team they don't like. In fact you seem to really despise the Irish team judging be your comments below. So my view is that it's a little depressing, that's all.

I think your poem on your merger thread is in poor taste (I've not copied it here). I suggest that it would guide any youngsters to hate rather than build bridges. Anyway you are entitled to your views on this team, and you are clearly an articulate guy. It's a shame you take such pleasure when Ireland lose. I'm not sure where the term "Beggar" comes from, & frankly I'm glad I don't. The irony is you also reproach some ROI fans on your thread for supporting NI opponents.

For what its worth I've always wanted NI to do well - if we are not involved. I shall therefore end exposure to the NI forum less it negatively influences me.

"God this is funny: the ROI's only hope is that everything we've seen so far is just a "blip", so that Stan really is the Man! "

"Maybe the GAWA should have a whip-round for him; after all, he's given us so much joy already in his short career, we should let him know how much we appreciate him. Perhaps Maiden City could devise an appropriate Christmas Card and we could all send Stan one, along with every other Beggar we know!

"Have Yourself a Very Merry Cyprus"
"All I want for Christmas is my old job back"
"Oh Little Town of Nicosia"
"Oh I wish you could meet Cyprus every day"

Like most people who post on Message Boards, sometimes I'm serious, sometimes I'm just out for a laugh.

Regarding the latter, I freely accept that my sense of humour might not appeal to everyone (anyone?), but I had hoped people could at least see what I was attempting. Do you need me to spell it out for you?

Or is it that you don't think rival football fans should engage in a bit of banter? If so, then perhaps you're a bit of a wallflower...

For the record, the song I posted was as follows:
"Only One Team in Ireland,
There's only One Team in Ireland
The Other Lot's Shi te,
But We're Doin' Allright
Winnin' in a Windsor Wonderland"

OK, it will never win any prizes for Literature. Or Music. Or even Comedy. But as fans who in very recent times have had to live through following a team which was "Unutterably Shi te", with all the accompanying jibes that went with it, I'd have thought it was only human nature to have a giggle. (Besides, Schadenfreude might not be the most attractive of human sentiments, but neither is it the most harmful. And it was the Germans invented it, in any case)

Oh, and I don't despise the ROI team, whatever my views on certain aspects of the team and their supporters. Over the years, I've been to a few ROI matches (not vs NI, that is), including in Italia 90, and enjoyed the occasion. And were it not for v.short notice and prior commitments, I'd have been happy to accept a kind invitation to meet the London ROI Supporters' Club this very evening, especially seeing as I enjoyed myself at their last "do".

P.S. Neither do I know where the term "Beggar" comes from, but I have to say, if that's the worst thing I'm ever called in life, I'll be happy enough.

P.P.S. Anyone who doesn't think Stan's Press Conferences are the funniest thing since "Father Ted" is severely lacking in the humour department. (Or is my fondness for that sitcom further evidence of how much I "despise" all things "Oirish" as well?)

Not Brazil

26/01/2007, 3:13 PM

eh? Do you think Ahern wants this so we have a better chance of making a World cup? There's a reason the views on this forum are in complete contrast to those on the Northern Ireland forum.

No.

I find it mildly amusing that Ahern goes about "uniting" Ireland, by annoying many of the people he seeks to be "united" with.

There'll be a so called "united" Ireland when the people of Northern Ireland register that desire at the ballot box, and it is endorsed by the people of the Republic of Ireland.

Then there might be an All Ireland team.

The supporters of the Northern Ireland football team are not interested in merging with the ROI team - or any other team(s).

If Ahern thinks that disenfranchising people he wishes to be "united" with is the best way to go about "uniting" Ireland, good luck to him. Maybe the penny will drop for him some day.

What's the reason for the contrasting views between here and the Northern Ireland forum ?

galwayhoop

26/01/2007, 3:24 PM

What's the reason for the contrasting views between here and the Northern Ireland forum ?

higher percentage of people on this forum would support the notion of a united ireland than on the NI forum - obviously...

or was that an attempt at trolling???

EalingGreen

26/01/2007, 3:58 PM

LOL: I just loooove this matey 'your our nearest rivals' claptrap. Where does it stem from?

If you want to know where I got the phrase "nearest rivals" from, I suggest you consult a map.

The thing is the IFA have been turned over far more by their fellow 'British' associations and yet there isn't anywhere near the animosity to them that there is to the FAI.

If you really want to know my attitude to the other 3 Associations, I can give them to you since you clearly have no idea what I think on that subject. But seeing as this is an ROI site, I hardly think it's relevant.

The desire for an all-Ireland team is down to politics. I personally would like to see an all-Ireland team because I'd like to see an all-Ireland state. Simple as that. I guess Mr Aherne is the same. Don't like it? Tough!

My support for the NI football team has little or nothing to do with my politics. Neither has my support e.g. for the Ireland rugby team. Whilst sport and politics inevitably overlap from time to time, I try to keep the two separate wherever possible. Consequently, your views on politics are of no interest to me. As for your views on the desirability of a single Irish team, you are entitled to them, from whatever motivation they derive. Personally, I really don't see there being a single team in my lifetime. Don't like it? Tough!

As for '20% free'? We're getting that 20% free already and the contributors of the 56 pages on OWC can write another 56 pages but that's not going to change.

The matter to which you refer (player eligibility) has yet to be determined by FIFA. I wouldn't be so sure that it will go your way if I were you.

Anyway, I think it's laughable hypocrisy to bleat on about 'poaching' by a 'foreign association' - more accusations of 'tapping up' and 'inducements', but yet no evidence- and using 'Ireland', when the IFA have picked players who have never lived in the 6C nor have any family connection with it, and also continued to use the name 'Ireland' itself long after players from the 26C stopped playing for them in 1950.

Despite "tapping up" being an offence that is self-evidently always going to be difficult to prove, I have seen persuasive evidence in at least two cases (statements by Chris Baird and Kieran McKenna)
As for using the name "Ireland", the IFA had that name since 1880, so that when FIFA adjudicated on such matters in the 50's, they determined that the IFA team be called "Northern Ireland" and the FAI team "Republic of Ireland", to avoid confusion at World Cups etc. However, it was accepted that the IFA could continue to use the name "Ireland" for British Championship matches, which they did only for another 20-odd years.
As for our picking players who have never lived in "the 6C" [sic], this is done within FIFA Rules the same as every other country and has nothing whatever to do with the issue of "tapping up" players from the jurisdiction of another National Association.
As for players with no "family connection" with NI, I know only of two examples Trevor Woods (from Jersey) and Maik Taylor (South African background, I think). Both were eligible for a UK Passport, but had no international team to represent (TW) or former connection with any other Association (MT). Presented therefore with a choice of which four countries they might further their career, both opted for NI, with the open agreement of the other three Associations. As such, this was entirely in keeping with the relevant FIFA regulations governing the matter. Neither example has anything to do with the case you are trying to make

As for the laughable suggestion that the FAI only picks Taigs, FFS, is that a serious statement? :D

That is not what I posted, nor implied. What I believe is that if the FAI are "tapping up" youngsters who have already represented NI at junior level, it would be a greater risk to approach those with a Protestant/Unionist background, since they might be more likely to decline and disclose what was happening.

That if George Best came along and said he was available, the FAI would turn round and tell him we only pick Catholics?

See answer above.

What happened with Alan Kernaghan?

I don't know whether this indicates you are stupid or ignorant (or both). AK was born in England, but brought up in NI by English born parents. As such, he represented NI schoolboys, since international rules require schoolboys to represent the country of their education, not birth. Later on he wanted to represent NI at senior level. However, in those days the IFA (stupidly imo) only recognised parents born in NI as granting eligibility for those players not themselves born there. The fact that AK's grandparent were NI-born and bred was not sufficient.
However, the ROI did allow Grandparents to qualify him (regardless of which part of Ireland from which they came), so he applied successfully to the FAI, with no objection from the IFA.
My attitude to this was that the IFA was being stupidly rigid; I do not hold it against either AK or the FAI for helping each other out, on the contrary, I was actually pleased for the big fella, who maintained a dignified stance throughout the whole episode.

The nun with the gift for sniffing out prods was on leave that day? I tell you what EG, it's nice to see you haven't lost your fine skill in 'hablando cojones.'

I'll leave it to other posters to determine who's "talking balls" here.

Not Brazil

26/01/2007, 4:04 PM

higher percentage of people on this forum would support the notion of a united ireland than on the NI forum - obviously...

or was that an attempt at trolling???

Not trolling at all.

The observation you make is pretty obvious, but I thought eirebhoy was maybe going to offer a reason as to why the people on respective boards have contrasting opinions.

He said there was a reason, but didn't state it.

Wolfie

26/01/2007, 4:09 PM

However, certain Northern ROI fans are sometimes very different i.e. their allegiance is more than just a preference or affinity for a team, it is also a very definite statement against our team. (I'll not even go into the political shi t that often goes with it, since life's too short)

Second, in more settled times, at least, the more reasonable NI fans might not be totally averse to a new, united team so long as it was just that: "new" and "united". But I have to say, whether out of malice, ignorance or simply not having thought about it, the unspoken implication of ROI-supporting proponents of a single team is that it would be the existing ROI team (or "Ireland" as it is invariably, but erroneously referred to), with a few NI players added to the squad.

Third, whenever there is a call for a single team, it is almost always from someone in the FAI/ROI camp, usually most vocally at a time when the ROI team is not doing so well and/or the NI team is doing OK. Examples of the call were often to be heard in e.g. the mid 1980's, but they weren't so loud three or four years back* when we were awful and couldn't buy a goal, never mind a victory. This severely ****es me off (for one) and hardly reassures me of the bona fides of those demanding to merge.

Finally, the issue is especially sensitive at the moment, due to the thorny issue of player eligibility. Now I think most reasonable NI fans would accept that if an NI-born player prefers to opt for the ROI, then that should be his prerogative. However, it is something else indeed if that player were to switch from representing NI as a result of being "tapped up", even induced, especially where that player had previously come up through the NI youth system and had been settled as an NI player. D

First off, Ealing Green has shown a bit of bottle to offer a different side to the debate - so hats off there - however.........

Regarding certain Northern ROI fans who are sometimes very different i.e. their allegiance is more than just a preference or affinity for a team, it is also a very definite statement against our team.

This situation works both ways - cast your selective memory back to Belfast in 1993 when NI played ROI. One of the most poisonous atmospheres vented towards a visiting team. Much of the provocative and hate filled behaviour was to spite the ROI team.

How can the Northern ROI fans identify with a Northern Irish team that persecutes / discriminates against its Nationalist players - Rogan, Lennon...etc.

You mention that certain NI fans might not be totally averse to a team that was "New" and "United". Your suggestion is that all pre-conditions should come from the NI end.

Personally, I'd have a few reservations and pre-conditions of my own should a united team ever be anywhere near a reality (which it isn't).

This "poaching" issue is farcical. These players have all weighed up the options and made their choice with their eyes open.

EalingGreen

26/01/2007, 6:04 PM

First off, Ealing Green has shown a bit of bottle to offer a different side to the debate - so hats off there - however.........

Regarding certain Northern ROI fans who are sometimes very different i.e. their allegiance is more than just a preference or affinity for a team, it is also a very definite statement against our team.

This situation works both ways - cast your selective memory back to Belfast in 1993 when NI played ROI. One of the most poisonous atmospheres vented towards a visiting team. Much of the provocative and hate filled behaviour was to spite the ROI team.

How can the Northern ROI fans identify with a Northern Irish team that persecutes / discriminates against its Nationalist players - Rogan, Lennon...etc.

You mention that certain NI fans might not be totally averse to a team that was "New" and "United". Your suggestion is that all pre-conditions should come from the NI end.

Personally, I'd have a few reservations and pre-conditions of my own should a united team ever be anywhere near a reality (which it isn't).

This "poaching" issue is farcical. These players have all weighed up the options and made their choice with their eyes open.

Thank you for the compliment (though I don't think being a "keyboard warrior" takes that much bottle! :cool: )

Re. affinity to/hostility against supporting teams, I would indeed agree that the situation works both ways. I would not deny that for some (many?) fans, their support for NI is at least partly a means of "proving their loyalty". However, that attitude is unquestionably being refined to one of merely supporting guys from your "own wee patch" for its own sake and the (imo extraneous) trappings of Loyalism etc are largely eliminated from Windsor
these days.
As for 1993, I agree it was deplorable, but I would make three points.
1. As someone who was there, I really don't feel it was quite so "apocalyptic" as the account, perpetrated mostly by people who weren't there, would now have it (GSpain was there with the ROI support and he actually thought it hugely exagerrated, as he has posted here before);
2. I was at the Spurs v Arsenal match on Wednesday - "Now That's What I Call 'Poison' Vol. 84";
3. A huge amount has changed in the 14 years since, as acknowledged by neutral and qualified observers on frequent occasions. Of course, it is by no means perfect and may never be, but do not be deceived into thinking nothing's changed, since it undoubtedly has. Let's face it, Paisley and Adams preparing to get "into bed with each other" even 4 years ago, never mind 14, is proof if needed of how things can change. (Horrible metaphor, I know!)

How does the "NI team persecute/discriminate against its own Nationalist players? By picking them?
It is true that Rogan did get abused on occasion by a section of the NI support which plagued us in those days. However, it is also overlooked that he was also actually given a standing ovation for his best NI display when substituted in the 84th minute of a friendly v Uruguay in 1990, when only the "true" NI fans were in attendance. Further, by the time he gained his 17th and final cap nearly 15 years ago, he had by then moved to Sunderland, a club team of no great significance for NI fans. (Besides, I have heard non-footballing reasons which contributed to his not continuing to play for NI, from a source which I trust, but whose confidence I do not wish to betray)

As for Lennon, there has grown an entire mythology around his predicament, frequently perpetuated by NI's detractors, working from a clear Agenda.
The facts are these: after he signed for Celtic, Lennon was indeed booed in his next NI international (a 0-4 gubbing at home to Norway). However, this was a small minority, made up mostly of Rangers/Linfield fans, some of which at least will only have been there to make their presence felt.
Typically, either these knuckle-draggers didn't bother to turn up, or possibly were deterred from repeating their "display" at the next match (home v Czechs), since I can honestly state that NL was cheered every time he got the ball, by fans determined to try and demonstrate that we weren't all as portrayed in the media.
Indeed, over the next few months, NL went on to play in a further three matches (2 at home), which clearly shows he had got over the initial furore (to his great credit).
Then, when he was honoured with the captaincy for the next match (some "persecution" there, eh?), away to Czech Republic, some unknown cretin phoned a death threat to a Belfast Newspaper, which NL sadly had to take seriously, so that he retired. There is absolutely no evidence that the perpetrator had any connection whatever with the team or its support; sadly, it is enough for a Catholic to achieve some prominence or distinction to make someone or other in NI want to hate him, the football being an irrelevance. Anyhow, his treatment cannot always have been so bad as commonly made out, for NL to perservere with 39 appearances over several years, for a generally pretty crap team. (Not that that in any way excuses any abuse he received).
And in any case, it is widely held amongst the NI support that NL was the final straw which forced everybody to stop brushing things under the carpet and start cleaning up properly. Now I accept that this was far too late, but we can't change history (only the propagandists think they can), but we can change the present and the future, which is what increasingly has been happening in the now nearly 7 years since NL's retirement. [Of course, this account is just how I've seen things, coloured as it inevitably will be by my own preferences and prejudices. However, I would urge anyone who doubts my account simply to read NL's autobiography. From his unique perspective, NL doubtless sees things differently again, but I am confident I'm not that far from the truth]

As for a "new", "united" team, I most definitely would not propose that NI should arbitrarily or unilaterally impose preconditions - quite the contrary. Instead, I would require that we start with a clean slate, which means that if anyone thinks the existing NI team can be somehow absorbed into the ROI team (as is the impression some ROI fans give), then that simply will not work.
For example, those proponents of a single team would need to accept that e.g. half of any games be played in Belfast, that the Tricolour and Soldiers Song as well as the NI flag and GSTQ would need to be dropped etc etc. before any proposal would even be considered by the NI support.

As for the poaching issue, I fear you are being naive if you think "tapping up", which is absolutely rife in club football, is not capable also of going on in international football, or that faced with inducements of one sort or another, all 16 or 18 year olds are capable of making cool choices, with "their eyes wide open". In my experience, that's not how life, or football, works.

dr_peepee

26/01/2007, 6:46 PM

Can't you see this barnyard guessing game is tearing us appart:( :p :p

EalingGreen

26/01/2007, 7:44 PM

Can't you see this barnyard guessing game is tearing us appart:( :p

Next you'll be telling us it's a duck...;)

theleprechaun

26/01/2007, 8:22 PM

is there any chance we can get a poll going on this?

dr_peepee

26/01/2007, 8:25 PM

That's what she said!!

Paddy Garcia

26/01/2007, 9:27 PM

[QUOTE=EalingGreen;611713]Like most people who post on Message Boards, sometimes I'm serious, sometimes I'm just out for a laugh.
[QUOTE]

The "I'm just out for a laugh" attitude I am unfortunately all too familiar with, notably ubiquitous in the 1970's in England. Sorry but frankly I prefer the honesty of the billy boys than an erudite apologist.

Lionel Ritchie

27/01/2007, 8:28 AM

Lopez
Originally Posted by Lionel Ritchie
...there is in fact a better chance that any of us would play under a duvet with Felicity Shagwell and sing "Take it all bitch, the whole fcukin' thing"...

What mushrooms you chomping there mate?

...sideways nod to the classics is all.

EG, we're just going to have to disagree on so called "tapping up/poaching" as used in this context. I don't believe it exists -and even if it did it's doubtful there's anything indictable involved. I've said before on this board and OWC that I believe the modalitys involved in playing international football for anyone are far less formal than many imagine.

Finally, I have to pull you up on your assertion that this AI team ( I've already stated I'm not in favour of it) call only comes when ye're doing well and or we are not.
Previous to Dermot Aherns trolling, the most column inches awarded to this topic happened roundabout a time when NI had just crossed 1000 minutes without a goal. I believe it was Derek Dougan who raised the issue at the time -and I'm hardly exaggerating in pointing out he was roundly savaged for such "treachery."

geysir

27/01/2007, 12:31 PM

No.

I find it mildly amusing that Ahern goes about "uniting" Ireland, by annoying many of the people he seeks to be "united" with.

There'll be a so called "united" Ireland when the people of Northern Ireland register that desire at the ballot box, and it is endorsed by the people of the Republic of Ireland.

Then there might be an All Ireland team.

The supporters of the Northern Ireland football team are not interested in merging with the ROI team - or any other team(s).

If Ahern thinks that disenfranchising people he wishes to be "united" with is the best way to go about "uniting" Ireland, good luck to him. Maybe the penny will drop for him some day.
What's the reason for the contrasting views between here and the Northern Ireland forum ?
Aherne is not concerned with the perceived hurts of football fans in the North.
Aherne's political constituency is in the South, his remarks IMO should be understood with that in mind. No more or less than some Unionist politician feeding their contituencies fears about the slippery slope theory. Aherne is concerned with re-election and FF back in power. No longer is it a feature that Haughey and his like go on stage once a year and weep tears about a United Ireland, so Aherne IHO picks on something benign, something that works in related areas. That's the FF baggage, shedding croc tears for an aspiration of a united Ireland that somehow satisfies their political base.
Sincerity of opinion is not an issue.

co. down green

27/01/2007, 5:04 PM

Ealing

Thanks for your in-depth analysis into what makes us ‘northern’?? based Ireland fans tick.

To be honest with you, your generalisations have a whiff of prejudice about them.

Personally, I don’t differentiate between Ireland fans from different parts of the country, it’s the camaraderie, passion and togetherness that has always impressed me when travelling home and away.

I’ve been following Ireland for 23 years and do you honestly believe that I have invested all that time and money to make a political statement or to annoy n.i’s small fan base – grow up, man.

I doubt if many hate your team, most Nationalists in the North just don't have any connection with the team and their symbols. The English Flag and Anthem, the Sash and the Dambusters have little meaning to your average sports fan. The team is pretty much irrelevant to kids from nationalist areas who are more interested in Robbie Keane and Shay Given.

Regarding eligibility, its clear that ‘tapping up’ up is a figment of your supporters ‘paranoid & suspicious’ (your words) imagination.

There is nothing more natural than a young Irish pro wanting to represent Ireland at the international stage in Lansdowne Road or Croke Park, and growing numbers of young players from the North of the Island are choosing this route, especially since the FAI were forced to drop the ‘unwritten’ 1950’s understanding about eligibility.

As I have mentioned on a previous thread, it is unfair for the IFA to use its resources on players who clearly don’t have any affinity to the team, so the solution would be for the FAI’s National Development Plan to be extended to the main catchments in the North, to cater for the growing number of players choosing the international path via Dublin. If the FAI has structures in place from schoolboy level the burden will be reduced on the IFA.

Perhaps Mr. Ahern could channel some of the 1.2 Billion promised to the North, into implementing the extension of the FAI’s youth development schemes in Belfast & Derry.

As regards the atmosphere at Windsor Park November 93, from were I was sitting in the Railway Stand that night, the atmosphere was vicious, Racist & sectarian. I have never encountered anything like it before, or since.

Almost worse than the sectarian singing was the constant racist chants directed at Paul McGrath & Terry Phelan, and i'm not sure what Alan McLaughlin thought about being called ' a Fenian lover'.

A number of Irish players have highlighted the game as the most poisonous atmosphere of their careers.

But I suppose every event has its lighter moments and to quote from the Paul McGrath’s ‘The Black Pearl Of Inchicore’

“The funniest thing on the way out (of Windsor Park) was the bloke giving Niall Quinn stick on the steps of the coach as we got ready to go away. He was telling Niall to “F**k off back to Dublin, you Fenian basta*d”. Niall, cool as a cucumber, just turned to him and said, “I’ll send you a postcard from America pal.” I nearly wet myself with laughter”.

lopez

27/01/2007, 6:05 PM

I'll leave it to other posters to determine who's "talking balls" here.Talking b*llocks as in making up fibs about players being 'tapped' up.

Trouble is with bigots like you is that a NI fan/player who follows/plays for Ireland is gloryhunting or making a political statement/tapped up or a raving chucky. As for the sh*te about eligibility, well I'm not a betting man, but I'd put money on us continuing to pick players from the 32 counties and their offspring who want to play for us. ;) In fact, FIFA have if anything made things easier. Before, players could only choose one association if they had played more than 45 minutes. Now its age, dual nationality, youth teams, friendlies. Changing the rules here means changing them everywhere, or are you too stoooopid to figure that one out.

Oh and by the way, if its good enough for you to pick up any naturalised so - and - so living in Battersea for the past 5 years, then I think its good enough for us to facilitate any Irishman who wants to play for us, whatever his motives.

Neither do I know where the term "Beggar" comes from, but I have to say, if that's the worst thing I'm ever called in life, I'll be happy enough.
LOL. It's something Bernard Manning would come out with. Bet you use the T word in closed circles too. Actually the first time I saw 'beggar' was in that well respected fanzine 'The Blues Brothers' (Linfield, Rangers, Chelsea: Issue 13 page 13 has it being used by a German no less), of whom the editor is known amongst some of the lesser inteligentsia on ourweeminds. It was used in reference to Celtic (beggars, charity club, gedditt!!!). Of course how it came to refer to us is really puzzling. :rolleyes:

good point Lopez, the enmity from their fans seems to be about more than football, hence the terms for the Republic, "Evil Empire", the "Dark Side", "Enemy territory"...and they wonder why kids from Nationalist backgrounds opt for the Republic.....For some of the people on ourweeminds, of which thanks to PG finding his attempt at emulating Yeats, we can include EG in that category, the hostility towards us is a political bigotry (tinged no doubt amongst some with religious bigotry) towards all things Irish nationalist or Republican. I used to like ourweeminds. It was a good laugh. But too much of it depresses me now, more because of the paranoia than what is actually written of us (EG provides plenty above), and the fact that I still can't reciprocate the feeling of euphoria when NI lose. It's like another former good entertainment website of mine, **********.org. Basically if you replace the Zionist Occupational Government with the FAI and replace Jews with everyone from the Irish News to Uncle Gerry, you get the drift of what it can be summed up as.

gspain

28/01/2007, 9:51 PM

The FAI have a duty to ensure the best available players are available to our national team manager. They are still well within FIFA rules and guidelines. We have aiden McGeady and Jamie McCarthy declaring for us now too so it is hardly a nationalist thing. Anyway the last time somebody from a nationalist background born in Northenr Ireland playe dfor the Republic was in 1946 so maybe it is a bit overblown here.

I was at the 93 game and the 88 and 94 games at Windsor too. It was blown totally out of proportion here. There were certainly racist and sectarian comments and chants from a minority of neanderthals in the home support but I certainly never felt in any danger. I think the thing that shocked many down here was the intensity of the desire of the NI players/fans to stop us from qualifying eventhough it meant nothing to them. The rivalry was very much one way prior to that as just about everybody down here supported NI in the 82 & 86 world cups.

I hadn't been to a NI home game at Windsor since Nov 94 until I went back to Azerbaijan in 2005 and Spain in 2006. The support is now totally non sectarian and just very noisy and very passionate. The neanderthals from 93 and probably supporting England now which would have been unheard of in 93.

Those in favour of an all Irekand team might want to consider how they'd feel if a single team for these islands was proposed by an English minister. I think better players and qualifying for world cups would be the last thing on your mind.

Personally I'd only be in favour of an All Ireland football team if it had the consent of the NI football fraternity (and ours of course). I don't see it happening. The only possibility otherwise would be if FIFA tried to force a single UK team (can't see this happening either as the separate teams are written into the rules since the home nations bailed FIFA out in the 40's).

tetsujin1979

28/01/2007, 10:40 PM

We have aiden McGeady and Jamie McCarthy declaring for us now too so it is hardly a nationalist thing.
Slightly off topic, why isn't Jim O'Brien being mentioned in the same breath as McCarthy and McGeady? Similar player (promising young Scottish midfielder) and declared for us, but doesn't seem to get the same press time.

lopez

29/01/2007, 11:35 AM

I was at the 93 game and the 88 and 94 games at Windsor too. It was blown totally out of proportion here...

..There were certainly racist and sectarian comments and chants from a minority of neanderthals in the home support but I certainly never felt in any danger...On the one hand you say it was 'blown totally out of proportion' and on the other you confirm what everybody else has said. You didn't feel in danger perhaps because you were in the official allocation and didn't display any colours. Did you wear overtly an Ireland shirt or wave a tricolour, something that you might consider doing at most other venues you've seen Ireland play?

I wasn't at that game because I was let down by someone re a ticket. I was at the more 'peacefull' games of 1988 and 1994 and the sectarianism didn't come from a handful of neanderthals, but was everywhere. No I didn't feel in danger because I wasn't stupid enough to give a reason to suggest I was an Ireland fan, which included keeping my mouth shut for the four goals scored. At the first game the police (if you could describe them as such) refused to take away some sectarian care in the comunity case that in any other part of what this statelet likes to describe itself as part of, would have been knicked on the spot (at Wembley in 1985 one fan was arrested by the Met for waving a rangers scarve). At the second, the marked decrease in sectarianism as the match passed coincided with the 'hangers-on' f*cking off to support England in the pub, as the goals against rose.

I've been back since and yes the atmosphere is different. But Azerbaijan and Spain are not us. The real test will be the next match with us. I fear that things, especially if it's a friendly, will be worse than before, simply because Nationalists/Republicans will not be put off from attending the game, as they were in the 80s and 90s. I predict a riot!:(

gspain

29/01/2007, 12:59 PM

On the one hand you say it was 'blown totally out of proportion' and on the other you confirm what everybody else has said. You didn't feel in danger perhaps because you were in the official allocation and didn't display any colours. Did you wear overtly an Ireland shirt or wave a tricolour, something that you might consider doing at most other venues you've seen Ireland play?

I wasn't at that game because I was let down by someone re a ticket. I was at the more 'peacefull' games of 1988 and 1994 and the sectarianism didn't come from a handful of neanderthals, but was everywhere. No I didn't feel in danger because I wasn't stupid enough to give a reason to suggest I was an Ireland fan, which included keeping my mouth shut for the four goals scored. At the first game the police (if you could describe them as such) refused to take away some sectarian care in the comunity case that in any other part of what this statelet likes to describe itself as part of, would have been knicked on the spot (at Wembley in 1985 one fan was arrested by the Met for waving a rangers scarve). At the second, the marked decrease in sectarianism as the match passed coincided with the 'hangers-on' f*cking off to support England in the pub, as the goals against rose.

I've been back since and yes the atmosphere is different. But Azerbaijan and Spain are not us. The real test will be the next match with us. I fear that things, especially if it's a friendly, will be worse than before, simply because Nationalists/Republicans will not be put off from attending the game, as they were in the 80s and 90s. I predict a riot!:(

I wasn't in the official allocation at any of the games. I still have 2 unused complimentaries from the 1988 official allocation but had home tickets in the North Stand for all 3 games. I literally couldn't give them away the day before the game in Limerick or Galway.

I didn't wave a tricolour or visibly wear colours but I did celebrate our goals and Tony Cascarino's "goal" (it was further over the line than Hurst's) in 88.
I was told "sit down you Fenian barsteward" in 88 but the guy was in his 60's and his mate was totally horrified. That was in the first 5 minutes and nothing after that.

It was definitely a minority in each case. In 93 I was in my seat well over an hour before kickoff and had the San Marino v England game on the radio. I was giving updates to all around me up until half time. A group of neanderthals did come in 5 minutes before kickoff in front of us and the atmosphere changed completely. Sure I had an "Oh S&*t" moment after THAT goal when I realised I was the only person on the lower deck of the North Stand jumping around like a demented lemming. However the cheerleader of the racist and sectarian chanting turned to me and asked "what's the score in Seville".

Frankly I've heard a lot worse at football - I was a neutral at Millwall v Liverpool in 1989 at the Old Den on the old open terrace and that was really scary. The referee rode Millwall and eventhoguh I was cheering madly for them at the end I was really intimidated and frightened for a while as i fel;t I stood out not having 3 scars on my face and 5 visible tattoos. The racism that night was unreal despite quite a few blacks on the home team.

I brought a friend (a casual Leeds fan) to Chelsea v Leeds in 1991 in the old West Stand. Probably my worse experience at football was at Southend v Readign to decide 12th place in the old 3rd division. Reading scored a late and undeserved equaliser 4 minutes from time in a dreadful game and I rose from my sleep in the main stand to kind of pretend top celebrate in deference to my female companion who actually cared. She got hit. We suffered 2 minutes of abuse that was really scarcy until Southend got the winner.

In summary yes there was definitely racist and sectarian abuse. Yes the atmosphere was intimidating. It was still a minority. It was blown totally out of proportion. It did not merit a Dail debate. Frankly I felt cheated as I came back to work on Thursday afternoon elated we'd qualified for the world cup and all everybody wanted to talk about was the atmosphere and how I got out alive.

I also attended othe rInternationals at windsor around the time. There was some sectarian chanting then too but again it was a minority. It wasn't pleasant. It wasn't right but it certainly was a minority.

Would it be different now? That's the real test. Sadly that goes both ways though. I was really really proud that NI fans could sit in the home support at Lansdowne and there wasn't a comment out of place. I'm not sure they could now.

Wolfie

29/01/2007, 1:17 PM

In summary yes there was definitely racist and sectarian abuse. Yes the atmosphere was intimidating. It was still a minority. It was blown totally out of proportion. It did not merit a Dail debate. Frankly I felt cheated as I came back to work on Thursday afternoon elated we'd qualified for the world cup and all everybody wanted to talk about was the atmosphere and how I got out alive.

I also attended othe rInternationals at windsor around the time. There was some sectarian chanting then too but again it was a minority. It wasn't pleasant. It wasn't right but it certainly was a minority.

Would it be different now? That's the real test. Sadly that goes both ways though. I was really really proud that NI fans could sit in the home support at Lansdowne and there wasn't a comment out of place. I'm not sure they could now.

The saliant point is that, a dissenting minority or not, can anyone see both sets of supporters amicably supporting the one team?

lopez

29/01/2007, 1:28 PM

...I didn't wave a tricolour or visibly wear colours but I did celebrate our goals and Tony Cascarino's "goal" (it was further over the line than Hurst's) in 88...Well I think that the game deserved a debate in parliament as much as the rantings of a fat cow on Big brother. On a slightly lighter note, I turned up at WP in 88 and was hanging around some old bill near the start of the M1. All of a sudden this big copper - looked like some sort of seargent - goes 'Oh f*cking hell.' He spots this old bloke dressed like he's just got back from Gelsenkirchen - green white and orange everywhere. The Policeman runs over and gives him a bit of an 'escort'. I'm not sure whether he got into the match, but I'd imagine his trappings of support were retained for safe keeping.

There are some right animals over here in football, but I was at Arsenal v Spurs a couple of years ago and the level of hatred that night was nowhere near Belfast on those two occasions. Arsenal v Spurs games have had its moments including a petrol bomb in the late seventies on the clock end. I told my boy that some song about Spurs last title win being the most 'offensive' on offer from Arsenal contrasts with the days when songs of an anti-semitic nature were more the norm.

gspain

29/01/2007, 2:19 PM

Well I think that the game deserved a debate in parliament as much as the rantings of a fat cow on Big brother. On a slightly lighter note, I turned up at WP in 88 and was hanging around some old bill near the start of the M1. All of a sudden this big copper - looked like some sort of seargent - goes 'Oh f*cking hell.' He spots this old bloke dressed like he's just got back from Gelsenkirchen - green white and orange everywhere. The Policeman runs over and gives him a bit of an 'escort'. I'm not sure whether he got into the match, but I'd imagine his trappings of support were retained for safe keeping.

There are some right animals over here in football, but I was at Arsenal v Spurs a couple of years ago and the level of hatred that night was nowhere near Belfast on those two occasions. Arsenal v Spurs games have had its moments including a petrol bomb in the late seventies on the clock end. I told my boy that some song about Spurs last title win being the most 'offensive' on offer from Arsenal contrasts with the days when songs of an anti-semitic nature were more the norm.

Football in England now is totally different from the late 80's/early 90's. The racist chanting etc is very much a thing of the past. You would get thrown out now for being in the wrong end but wouldn't get the beating/abuse that you'd have got in the past.

I should also point out that I was at the B game in Portadown in 1990, the UEFA youths qualifier at the Oval in 1999 and the U21 game in Lurgan in 2005 and could openly cheer for the RoI without any problems.

galwayhoop

29/01/2007, 2:55 PM

Those in favour of an all Irekand team might want to consider how they'd feel if a single team for these islands was proposed by an English minister.

why ever so???? what on earth does an english minister have to do with this??

from all the reading above david, not brazil et al claim to be British (and Irish) but nowhere English. perhaps you meant to say an MP from NI - and one with a british identity. and for the sake of argument lets say the likes of ian paisley. but an english minister well now your just being silly.

gspain

29/01/2007, 3:10 PM

why ever so???? what on earth does an english minister have to do with this??

from all the reading above david, not brazil et al claim to be British (and Irish) but nowhere English. perhaps you meant to say an MP from NI - and one with a british identity. and for the sake of argument lets say the likes of ian paisley. but an english minister well now your just being silly.

The point is that NI fans want their own team, have their own identity.

Given that there hasn't been an independent United Ireland for over 800 years a single national; team for this island would make as much sense to them as a single national team for these islands would make to us.

The typical argument is that we play as one team in rugby and the orange bit in the tricolour is there to cover the unionists.

Well these islands play as one team in rugby - British (and Irish mentioned sometimes) Lions and we have the cross of St. Patrick in the Union Jack already.

Now just imagine how you'd feel if some idiot in Downing Street had a few G&Ts too many and proposed the above. I'd guess you'd be a teeny weeny bit ****ed off. ;) Now you can imagine how the Northern Ireland fans feel

galwayhoop

29/01/2007, 3:17 PM

The point is that NI fans want their own team, have their own identity.

Given that there hasn't been an independent United Ireland for over 800 years a single national; team for this island would make as much sense to them as a single national team for these islands would make to us.

The typical argument is that we play as one team in rugby and the orange bit in the tricolour is there to cover the unionists.

Well these islands play as one team in rugby - British (and Irish mentioned sometimes) Lions and we have the cross of St. Patrick in the Union Jack already.

Now just imagine how you'd feel if some idiot in Downing Street had a few G&Ts too many and proposed the above. I'd guess you'd be a teeny weeny bit ****ed off. ;) Now you can imagine how the Northern Ireland fans feel

yeah but NI fans identify to being British citizens, Irish people and their country is NI. nowhere is england mentioned here at all. if you are going for comparison then it would be a DUP party member in Stormont calling for a unitied team under the stewardship of the IFA. should an English MP be calling for a unified team then the comparison should be for a UK team including NI and would have nothing to do with ROI. ;)

Jamjar

29/01/2007, 3:18 PM

T and we have the cross of St. Patrick in the Union Jack already.

Jays�s, you make it sound like something we should be proud of !!

EalingGreen

29/01/2007, 4:36 PM

EalingGreen

29/01/2007, 4:49 PM

EG, we're just going to have to disagree on so called "tapping up/poaching" as used in this context. I don't believe it exists -and even if it did it's doubtful there's anything indictable involved. I've said before on this board and OWC that I believe the modalitys involved in playing international football for anyone are far less formal than many imagine.

Finally, I have to pull you up on your assertion that this AI team ( I've already stated I'm not in favour of it) call only comes when ye're doing well and or we are not.
Previous to Dermot Aherns trolling, the most column inches awarded to this topic happened roundabout a time when NI had just crossed 1000 minutes without a goal. I believe it was Derek Dougan who raised the issue at the time -and I'm hardly exaggerating in pointing out he was roundly savaged for such "treachery."

Re. the tapping up - fair enough, agree to disagree.

Re. the raising of a single Irish team, my point was that the call is most frequent/vocal from the Southern side of the Border, when you wee mexicans are going through a bad patch.
Dougan is one of ours (just about!). However, one of the reasons he was excoriated was because he made utterly false allegations about "party songs" etc at NI internationals, yet when pressed, he was forced to admit he hadn't actually attended Windsor in years!
In fact, as far as I can remember, he was preparing to stand in an Election for some fringe, basket-case party (UKIP or somesuch?), so was garnering as much media attention as he could. He was even on Question Time, where he said nothing of note.
So whatever his views on a "United Ireland Dream Team", he's only keeping company with fellow Troll, Aherne!

EalingGreen

29/01/2007, 5:41 PM

Ealing

Thanks for your in-depth analysis into what makes us �northern�?? based Ireland fans tick.

To be honest with you, your generalisations have a whiff of prejudice about them.

Personally, I don�t differentiate between Ireland fans from different parts of the country, it�s the camaraderie, passion and togetherness that has always impressed me when travelling home and away.

I�ve been following Ireland for 23 years and do you honestly believe that I have invested all that time and money to make a political statement or to annoy n.i�s small fan base � grow up, man.

CDG,
I was particularly careful in my use of language when making my original point, namely:
"For one thing, the majority of ROI fans that we tend to meet on a day-to-day basis are inevitably from "the North". Now, at the risk of repeating a huge generalisation, or stereotype, Northern ROI fans are often different from Southern ones"
and
"However, certain Northern ROI fans are sometimes very different"
In fact, one doesn't have to look too far on this Board, to find posters making just such the same sort of distinction between Northern and Southern fans.
However, I do not consider that every Northern ROI fan is the same, hence my use of qualification to exclude people such as yourself.

I doubt if many hate your team, most Nationalists in the North just don't have any connection with the team and their symbols. The English Flag and Anthem, the Sash and the Dambusters have little meaning to your average sports fan. The team is pretty much irrelevant to kids from nationalist areas who are more interested in Robbie Keane and Shay Given.

You first sentence is fair enough. However, I cannot ever recall an "English Flag" at WP (except, obviously when England play); nor do I recall any (English) Anthem. If it's GSTQ you mean, then that is the NA of the UK of GB & NI. Personally, I'd rather we used a more distinctive NI song, as do many fellow fans, but I fail to see how a 90 second song played even before the kick-off should be any more of a real deterrent than e.g. the Soldiers' Song (played twice!) is at Lansdowne, for those thousands of NI football fans who also follow rugby. In my experience, such things are only important to those determined to make them so.
As for the "Sash", that hasn't been heard at an NI international in years, so frankly, that point is ******. And the Dambusters? Jeez, get a life.
Regarding your last sentence, I've no doubt there are kids in Nationalist areas in NI who are more interested in (Dubliner) RK or (Donegal's) SG.
However, there are also kids in other Nationalist, or mixed, areas such as my own County, Fermanagh, who may differ. They will have witnessed the likes of Roy Carroll, Kyle Lafferty, Kieran McKenna (Spurs & NI U-19 Captain) and Michael McGovern (Celtic & NI U-21 captain) and noted that they came up through the Fermanagh & Western and inter-county Milk Cup systems etc, as well as attending local schools etc. And if the players themselves can associate with NI, why not their teammates, friends, families and neighbours?

Regarding eligibility, its clear that �tapping up� up is a figment of your supporters �paranoid & suspicious� (your words) imagination.

Both Chris Baird and Kieran McKenna have mentioned in interviews that they were approached by the FAI whilst part of the NI set-up, without their ever having expressed any dissatisfaction or discontent with the IFA etc. These are only two examples of approaches which I know about. Neither is a figment of my imagination.

There is nothing more natural than a young Irish pro wanting to represent Ireland at the international stage in Lansdowne Road or Croke Park, and growing numbers of young players from the North of the Island are choosing this route, especially since the FAI were forced to drop the �unwritten� 1950�s understanding about eligibility.

Who "forced" the FAI to drop which 'unwritten' understanding?

As I have mentioned on a previous thread, it is unfair for the IFA to use its resources on players who clearly don�t have any affinity to the team, so the solution would be for the FAI�s National Development Plan to be extended to the main catchments in the North, to cater for the growing number of players choosing the international path via Dublin. If the FAI has structures in place from schoolboy level the burden will be reduced on the IFA.
Perhaps Mr. Ahern could channel some of the 1.2 Billion promised to the North, into implementing the extension of the FAI�s youth development schemes in Belfast & Derry.

Whilst I have nowhere expressed opposition to any NI-born youngster who was not already happily in the IFA set-up opting for the ROI, what you are suggesting goes much further. As such, I have ABSOLUTELY NO DOUBT that UEFA/FIFA would prohibit the FAI making an unwelcome intrusion directly into the jurisdiction of another National Association. The whole international set-up is based on respecting the integrity of each Association equally.
As for Mr. Ahern channelling money into football in the North (again unwelcome), FIFA would clamp down on this like a ton of bricks. Even as we debate this, they are presently telling the Polish Government to stay out of the running of football in Poland. This follows on from recent disputes with the Governments of Greece and Kenya (and many more) - just Google "FIFA, Governments, political interference" and I daresay you'll find plenty of proof.
(And in any case, Ahern is only electioneering. As soon as the votes are counted, he will forget his new-found interest in football)

As regards the atmosphere at Windsor Park November 93, from were I was sitting in the Railway Stand that night, the atmosphere was vicious, Racist & sectarian. I have never encountered anything like it before, or since.

I, too, was at that game. I have always accepted that there was a sizeable element in the NI support that behaved deplorably. However, my quibble is with the extent of it. Now I don't expect you to accept my account, but I am quite happy to point to Gary Spain's account elsewhere on this thread, for a fair and balanced perspective. Or is he biased?

But I suppose every event has its lighter moments and to quote from the Paul McGrath�s �The Black Pearl Of Inchicore�
�The funniest thing on the way out (of Windsor Park) was the bloke giving Niall Quinn stick on the steps of the coach as we got ready to go away. He was telling Niall to �F**k off back to Dublin, you Fenian basta*d�. Niall, cool as a cucumber, just turned to him and said, �I�ll send you a postcard from America pal.� I nearly wet myself with laughter�.

Indeed. It is to Big Quinn and McGrath's credit (and typical of them), that they, at least, managed to retain a sense of perspective amidst the "sectarian hate-fest", at which no ROI supporter was actually assaulted or injured, never mind murdered...

(P.S. I make that last point not in order to claim any sort of "credit" for what should be universal at every football match; rather, to distinguish it from the many football matches around the world where actual violence has occurred, unlike this one being discussed)

gspain

29/01/2007, 5:43 PM

yeah but NI fans identify to being British citizens, Irish people and their country is NI. nowhere is england mentioned here at all. if you are going for comparison then it would be a DUP party member in Stormont calling for a unitied team under the stewardship of the IFA. should an English MP be calling for a unified team then the comparison should be for a UK team including NI and would have nothing to do with ROI. ;)

Dermot Aherne called for an All Ireland team which would be the only national football team I'm aware of that would span an International border.

There is actually an argument (I don't agree with it) for a single national team for the UK. I don't see it happening. The daft idea of a single national team for these islands is probably a parallel with Dermot Aherne's suggestion. It won't happen.

gspain

29/01/2007, 5:44 PM

Jays�s, you make it sound like something we should be proud of !!

No I don't. It is a good analagy though as the Union Jack no more represents me than the orange bit in the tricolour represents a unionist in NI.

gspain

29/01/2007, 5:52 PM

BTW the history is that we broke away from the IFA in the 1920's because of a supposed Belfast bias. They persisted in picking an All Ireland team until 1950 when we put pressure on FIFA and on the players to stop representing them. Clubs such as Aston Villa told their RoI players they would no longer be released. This is all documented by Peter Byrne in is excellent history of the FAI in 1996 which will hopefully be updated and re-released soon.

EalingGreen

29/01/2007, 6:18 PM

Talking b*llocks as in making up fibs about players being 'tapped' up.

Trouble is with bigots like you is that a NI fan/player who follows/plays for Ireland is gloryhunting or making a political statement/tapped up or a raving chucky. As for the sh*te about eligibility, well I'm not a betting man, but I'd put money on us continuing to pick players from the 32 counties and their offspring who want to play for us. ;) In fact, FIFA have if anything made things easier. Before, players could only choose one association if they had played more than 45 minutes. Now its age, dual nationality, youth teams, friendlies. Changing the rules here means changing them everywhere, or are you too stoooopid to figure that one out.

Oh and by the way, if its good enough for you to pick up any naturalised so - and - so living in Battersea for the past 5 years, then I think its good enough for us to facilitate any Irishman who wants to play for us, whatever his motives.

LOL. It's something Bernard Manning would come out with. Bet you use the T word in closed circles too. Actually the first time I saw 'beggar' was in that well respected fanzine 'The Blues Brothers' (Linfield, Rangers, Chelsea: Issue 13 page 13 has it being used by a German no less), of whom the editor is known amongst some of the lesser inteligentsia on ourweeminds. It was used in reference to Celtic (beggars, charity club, gedditt!!!). Of course how it came to refer to us is really puzzling. :rolleyes:
For some of the people on ourweeminds, of which thanks to PG finding his attempt at emulating Yeats, we can include EG in that category, the hostility towards us is a political bigotry (tinged no doubt amongst some with religious bigotry) towards all things Irish nationalist or Republican. I used to like ourweeminds. It was a good laugh. But too much of it depresses me now, more because of the paranoia than what is actually written of us (EG provides plenty above), and the fact that I still can't reciprocate the feeling of euphoria when NI lose. It's like another former good entertainment website of mine, **********.org. Basically if you replace the Zionist Occupational Government with the FAI and replace Jews with everyone from the Irish News to Uncle Gerry, you get the drift of what it can be summed up as.

Another typically meritricious, irrelevant and at times offensive contribution from this poster.

I have already posted elsewhere the references which lead me to believe that "tapping-up" may be occurring.

Nowhere have I ever characterised everyone from NI who follows the ROI football team (I assume you don't mean "Ireland", as in the rugby team?) as "gloryhunting or making a political statement/tapped up or a raving chucky".
That is your (wilful?) misinterpretation of my posts.

As for FIFA's Rules on the eligibility of NI-born players representing the ROI, that has yet to be finally resolved.

What on earth has Bernard Manning got to do with anything I've posted? (And when I ask that question, I'd like some direct quotations from me in any reply you make)

As for "the T word" and my alleged use of it (I assume you mean "Taig"?), how dare you make such an accusation against someone you've never met? Indeed, all you know about me is what I've posted here and I defy you to find anything which has in any way condoned, never mind advocated, vile sectarianism of the kind with which you appear fixated.

As for the term "Beggar", I said I had no idea where it came from - that is a simple statement of fact. If, as you claim, it came from "The Blues Brothers", then I am in no position to know, since I've never supported Chelsea, Linfield or Rangers and so have never read their magazine. (But I repeat my opinion that as football insults go, that's by no means the worst thing one fan has called another)

I have no idea what point your trying to make about PG (who?) and Yeats, not least because your syntax is so fcuked up. Anyhow, it would appear you're accusing me of "political bigotry" (even "religious bigotry"?) amidst all that drivel. Once again, I would like some examples of this, quoted from my posts, that is.

As for your final "point", where you compare OWC to **********, I can only suggest you report OWC to Gerry Gable at Searchlight on www.searchlightmagazine.com.
I should be most intrigued (and no doubt highly amused) if you could post for us any reply which you might receive.
In the meantime, however, you might like to consider that as well as being offensive in your gratuitous use of personal insults ("bigot" etc), you are also making yourself look very stupid indeed when you make posts like the above.

P.S. If you are still having difficulyy understanding why I termed the ROI as "NI's nearest rivals" in an earlier post, here's a wee clue:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/63/Ireland-Capitals.PNG/200px-Ireland-Capitals.PNG

Paddy Garcia

29/01/2007, 7:39 PM

What the hell has "1970's England" got to do with anything I've posted? And just what is it I'm apologising for (eruditely or otherwise?).

Well Lopez pointed it out for you with his Bernard Manning reference. It was a period where individuals would defend using offensive terminology (often of a racist nature) by a) I was just out for a laugh and b) well I could have called you something worse - so don't complain, I'll be happy if it's the worst I'm called. It's poor really.

Just to be clear - I said you were an apologist not apologising. There is a significant difference.

Apologist: "A person who supports a particular belief or political system, especially an unpopular one, and speaks or writes in defence of it".

In this context this would include:

* Offensive terminology "beggars" (not the worst possible I totally agree);
* Rejoycing when Ireland lose yet reproaching Irish fans for supporting NI opponents. Surprised you can't see the irony here.
* "some unknown cretin phoned a death threat to a Belfast Newspaper, which NL sadly had to take seriously" acknowledgement of some wrong doing but then placing the blame firmly with Lennon for taking it seriously. I must say this is typical of some of your posts.
* "surely the whole point about a Message Board is that posters are contributing their "baggage" i.e. opinions?" Yiou defend the OWC board - well on your "darkside" thread alone there is a suggestion to go to Crewe to do God knows what to O'Connor and another to blow up the FAI (granted might get more support than you would think).
* Your poem is not the worst either, but I think you will find that little good will come from the cumulative effect of this type of hostility to your neighbour. You more than most seem to understand the context and sensitivities, especially the impact on the young in both NI communities.
* "But as fans who in very recent times have had to live through following a team which was "Unutterably Shi te", with all the accompanying jibes that went with it, I'd have thought it was only human nature to have a giggle". Do you, don't then be suprised if you alienate young players with any connections to that country?

You may well be full of good intentions (& funnily enough I kind of believe you are), but I don't think you should wonder too hard at why some young players don't want to play for you.

Paddy Garcia

29/01/2007, 7:56 PM

O yeah, I think you will find the term beggars relates to the time of the famine.

lopez

29/01/2007, 10:29 PM

Another typically meritricious, irrelevant and at times offensive contribution from this poster...LOL. :D

Thanks to PG (Paddy Garcia, stoooopid! :rolleyes: ) for explaining the comparison to Bernard Manning, although knowing you, it's wasted, but here we go. Basically, your reply is the usual 'they shouldn't be so offended' line which is Manning's stock answer to charges of being a racist. As for being called 'beggar', meaning someone that goes around poncing, or an Irish christian name, I'd take the latter anyday, although among the two brain cells that occupy the space between your ears, they mean the same thing.

And finally, with regards to **********.org, you must either be one thick, wee cookie or you were so incensed at being called the B word (political or religious) - your use of the word 'beggar' qualifies you in my eyes - that you failed to see that the comparison is not of doctrine, but of the laughable acceptance of 'boogeymen' and conspiracy theories, of which you too are culpable (eg: references which lead me to believe that "tapping-up" may be occurring). The clue Einstein was in the line '...if you replace the Zionist Occupational Government with the FAI and replace Jews with everyone from the Irish News to Uncle Gerry, you get the drift of what [ourweeminds] can be summed up as.'

EalingGreen

29/01/2007, 11:16 PM

Well Lopez pointed it out for you with his Bernard Manning reference. It was a period where individuals would defend using offensive terminology (often of a racist nature) by a) I was just out for a laugh and b) well I could have called you something worse - so don't complain, I'll be happy if it's the worst I'm called. It's poor really.

Just to be clear - I said you were an apologist not apologising. There is a significant difference.

Apologist: "A person who supports a particular belief or political system, especially an unpopular one, and speaks or writes in defence of it".

In this context this would include:

* Offensive terminology "beggars" (not the worst possible I totally agree);
* Rejoycing when Ireland lose yet reproaching Irish fans for supporting NI opponents. Surprised you can't see the irony here.
* "some unknown cretin phoned a death threat to a Belfast Newspaper, which NL sadly had to take seriously" acknowledgement of some wrong doing but then placing the blame firmly with Lennon for taking it seriously. I must say this is typical of some of your posts.
* "surely the whole point about a Message Board is that posters are contributing their "baggage" i.e. opinions?" Yiou defend the OWC board - well on your "darkside" thread alone there is a suggestion to go to Crewe to do God knows what to O'Connor and another to blow up the FAI (granted might get more support than you would think).
* Your poem is not the worst either, but I think you will find that little good will come from the cumulative effect of this type of hostility to your neighbour. You more than most seem to understand the context and sensitivities, especially the impact on the young in both NI communities.
* "But as fans who in very recent times have had to live through following a team which was "Unutterably Shi te", with all the accompanying jibes that went with it, I'd have thought it was only human nature to have a giggle". Do you, don't then be suprised if you alienate young players with any connections to that country?

You may well be full of good intentions (& funnily enough I kind of believe you are), but I don't think you should wonder too hard at why some young players don't want to play for you.

Re. your Bernard Manning line, quote me one example where I posted something racist or offensive, then tried to pretend I was joking, or that it wasn't serious, or that the butt of the joke should just put up with it, for the sake of pleasing me, rather than himself. Just one.

And I know what an apologist is.
* To take your examples, I have no intention, or even need, to defend people who use the term "beggar" in the context which it's been used here i.e. banter between football fans. But I think, deep down, you know that, by your admission that it's not the "worst possible". It seems to me that in your attempt to discredit me, you're having to scrape the barrel, since it's the "worst" I've ever posted.
* As for "rejoicing when ROI loses", I don't actually get my enjoyment from football by reference to a rival team losing. Naturally, I get my fun from seeing my own team win.
However, having taken so much crap during all the games where NI were losing, to the great enjoyment of rival fans (e.g. the Fran Rooney joke), it just makes victory all the sweeter. (Why am I having to explain this? Did you only take up following football last week, or something?)
* As for Lennon, perhaps I phrased it badly (though I don't think I did). Anyhow, what I was trying to say was that having been threatened, NL had no choice but to take it seriously. In that respect, it was a sad, as well as deplorable, state of affairs. I have been consistently sympathetic to NL, which you would know had you looked at some of the rest of my posts on OWC, rather than selectively quoting a fragment as you did earlier. For the record, the opportunity to show my support for NL was the deciding factor in my flying back from London for the next game after he had been booed vs Norway. But if I had put the blame on the victim (NL), quote me one example of how this is "typical of some of my posts".
* As for the OWC Board, whilst I defend the Board as a whole, and the spirit it reflects, how on earth could anyone defend every single post or poster on so widespread a forum? That's about as ludicrous as you defending every post on this Board, including mine. For the record, there is no way I would ever condone someone e.g. threatening O'Connor or threatening to "blow up the FAI" - quite the opposite. Unless, of course, you can find me one example where I have ever advocated, defended or been an apoligist for such disgraceful suggestions.
* - As for my little ditty (I think "poem" somewhat pretentious), how does that qualify as being "hostile"? It's just the sort of "dig" that rival football fans engage in the world over. Good grief. You know, if that's the best evidence you can find to hang me, then you're looking pretty desperate...
* As for your last "point", this is the most bizarre of the lot. When NI fans sing in support of our own team at the expense of a rival team (in this case, ROI), we include all of our fans in the singing i.e including those from a Catholic/Nationalist background (however few/many there may be). We're all NI fans, supporting our team. As long as we're not being obscene or offensive, why on earth should we feel some sort of extra sensitivity for the fans of our rivals? After all, we know that if and when the tide turns, which it always does in football, it will be our turn to grin and bear it. Again.

As for young players wanting to play for NI, I want all kids from NI to play for us, regardless of background, just so long as they also want to play for us. Any who might get upset at our having a dig at the Begga... oops, ROI, are already sympathetic to them anyhow, so aren't likely to want to give 100% to us anyway. Which is entirely fair enough: each to his own.