View Full Version : Global Warming Debate
Thought it was funny to see the Sky News CO2 emissions counter last week. Nore sure what they trying to achieve as those numbers mean nothing with no context.
I also liked Tony Blair being asked to give up his foreign holidays because of the evil planes... I admire him for actually saying he'd like to keep his foreign holidays. Maybe the media people can give up hholidays first? :rolleyes:
Lim till i die
16/01/2007, 11:00 AM
And all that airtime for that Lisa Burke woman.
Learn to speak English properly you moron :mad:
And all that airtime for that Lisa Burke woman.
She should stick to the weather. Sounds like she presenting kids tv. :eek:
Lim till i die
16/01/2007, 11:28 AM
She should stick to the weather. Sounds like she presenting kids tv.
She should stick to having babies by that poor stockbroker she snared. I remember my ma called me in when she was watching Brides of Franc or whatever it's called and Burke was complaining about the menu as she felt salmon was "too common". Remind me which rural backwater you slept your way out of again you tramp?? :mad: :mad:
Anyway Global Warming
Don't really believe in it myself but I'll admit I probably don't know nearly enough about it. It's just I've been waiting to have a go at Lisa Burke for years you see :)
BohsPartisan
16/01/2007, 11:30 AM
Don't really believe in it myself
:eek:
Are you into situational science? (http://www.doonesbury.com/strip/dailydose/index.html?uc_full_date=20070114&link_from=strip_preview) :cool:
anto1208
16/01/2007, 11:56 AM
She should stick to having babies by that poor stockbroker she snared. I remember my ma called me in when she was watching Brides of Franc or whatever it's called and Burke was complaining about the menu as she felt salmon was "too common". Remind me which rural backwater you slept your way out of again you tramp??
Anyway Global Warming
Don't really believe in it myself but I'll admit I probably don't know nearly enough about it. It's just I've been waiting to have a go at Lisa Burke for years you see :)
A woman sleeping her way to the top surely thats unheard of , have you got any Madonna CD's :D
Global warming :
Basically what happens is the Sun gives of heat radiation this hits the earth and bounces back, in the atmosphere there are little naturally occurring particles (Carbon emissions from volcano’s etc) when the radiation hits these they vibrate like crazy sending the heat radiation back towards the earth (effectively trapping it in the atmosphere) this was a good thing as it led to the earth being able to support life. but with the massive increase in the burning of fossil fuels (which releases these particles )over the last few hundred years the number of these particles has increased faster then we ever imagined and faster than the earths atmosphere can handle. With more of these particles reflecting more of the heat radiation backs towards us it is slowly raising the temp of the whole world.
in simple terms its like putting a blanket around the planet .
Lim till i die
16/01/2007, 12:07 PM
:eek:
Are you into situational science? (http://www.doonesbury.com/strip/dailydose/index.html?uc_full_date=20070114&link_from=strip_preview) :cool:
Come Now BP isn't there a theory somewhere that says we're jusy coming down off the ice age :confused:
BohsPartisan
16/01/2007, 1:24 PM
Come Now BP isn't there a theory somewhere that says we're jusy coming down off the ice age :confused:
Enlighten me.
Global warming is a proven fact. There are a few dubious studies carried out by oil companies that have the same scientific credibility as studies carried out by tobacco companies saying that smoking is not bad for you and ones carried out by Creationists to say that dinosaurs were put here to test us.
Proof global warming is caused by diminishing numbers of pirates (http://www.venganza.org/piratesarecool4.jpg)
Getting away from the he said she said discussion anyone else feed up with the latest "carbon footprint" fashion...?
If were to follow this logic we'd buy no goods from poor countries therefore they'd be screwed.
BohsPartisan
16/01/2007, 2:07 PM
Thats a very simplistic logic. You're saying we can have environmental disaster or economic disaster.
Thats a very simplistic logic. You're saying we can have environmental disaster or economic disaster.
No. I am saying needs to be some realism.
We are often told that Electricity cars are better than petrol/diesel ones yet in Ireland almost all our energy comes from fossil fuels. Do power stations have catalytic convertors? Are the fumes from petrol cars any worse than a power station?
BohsPartisan
16/01/2007, 3:51 PM
Fair point, I agree. The whole system needs to be looked at. Blaming individuals and their cars is indeed a cop-out.
anto1208
16/01/2007, 4:14 PM
No. I am saying needs to be some realism.
We are often told that Electricity cars are better than petrol/diesel ones yet in Ireland almost all our energy comes from fossil fuels. Do power stations have catalytic convertors? Are the fumes from petrol cars any worse than a power station?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ardnacrusha
what happens is when there is a massive surge on the network the older fossil fuel stations come online ( 5-7 as all the ads on radio at the moment tell us ) they are the ones that cause the pollution .
no one is saying stop flying/stop buying from countries far away , but just make a few changes , such as energy saving light bulbs , not turning on all the telly , cooker , washing machine etc etc untill 7 ) will make a difference .
I was surprised to see that you shouldnt recycle palstic bottles ( this was for the uk but i assume its the same here ) because there isnt enough recycling plants so they pack them up and send them off to china on big boats that pump out CO2 . And since plastic doesnt give off any harmfull gasses as it breaks down that land fills are the most eviromental option .
hoops1
16/01/2007, 4:18 PM
Just dump all your rubbish in a river it washes out to sea,problem solved!
BohsPartisan
16/01/2007, 4:45 PM
Just dump all your rubbish in a river it washes out to sea,problem solved!
You've given away your identity there minister! :D
no one is saying stop flying/stop buying from countries far away , but just make a few changes , such as energy saving light bulbs , not turning on all the telly , cooker , washing machine etc etc untill 7 ) will make a difference .
All those things you mention been around for a while. I was just highlighting how carbon emissions & airline pollution the latest media hype. Some UK politicians have jumped on the hype but I just thought Tony Blair was a bit more different saying he didn't agree. (maybe the fact he has no more elections affecting his answer)
I think the 5-7 campaign by the ESB has a lot more to do with lack of capacity in the network at peak time so they encouraging us to help them out...
hoops1
16/01/2007, 5:16 PM
You've given away your identity there minister! :D
Eh I mean we all have a responsibility to the environment.:)
Not going to debate whether or not global warming is happening or not (seriously lads even George W. has admitted that it is, George W!!!), but honestly I think the situation that the greens are warning will come to pass on this planet is pretty much unstoppable right now. Two of the leading professors on the environment and the hazards it faces said that to stop the world heating up unnaturally, polar ice caps melting, sea levels rising etc. we would have to cut out things like flying. When questioned on that statement and whether they think it would happen he gave responded by saying that he wasn't saying it would happen, just that it should.
Obviously given the parasite nature of human beings, and the downright selfishness of our species this isn't going to happen, add to that the fact that America, who at last count (or at least last time I checked) counted for 40% of the world's carbon emissions, are about 5-10 years too late admitting that global warming is happening than you may agree with me that the world is pretty much ****ed. Not for us, but for the next generation and beyond. Still on the grand scheme of things humans don't have it in them to do any lasting damage to the planet, so all this will achieve is to hopefully shorten the Age of Man in the Earth's history.
That's my two cents anyway :)
anto1208
16/01/2007, 10:04 PM
Not going to debate whether or not global warming is happening or not (seriously lads even George W. has admitted that it is, George W!!!), but honestly I think the situation that the greens are warning will come to pass on this planet is pretty much unstoppable right now. Two of the leading professors on the environment and the hazards it faces said that to stop the world heating up unnaturally, polar ice caps melting, sea levels rising etc. we would have to cut out things like flying. When questioned on that statement and whether they think it would happen he gave responded by saying that he wasn't saying it would happen, just that it should.
Obviously given the parasite nature of human beings, and the downright selfishness of our species this isn't going to happen, add to that the fact that America, who at last count (or at least last time I checked) counted for 40% of the world's carbon emissions, are about 5-10 years too late admitting that global warming is happening than you may agree with me that the world is pretty much ****ed. Not for us, but for the next generation and beyond. Still on the grand scheme of things humans don't have it in them to do any lasting damage to the planet, so all this will achieve is to hopefully shorten the Age of Man in the Earth's history.
That's my two cents anyway :)
ah but we can ! grow weed its the most amazing plant as the link shows it can support all our fuel needs it can be used in over 25,000 different products, doesnt require pestisides,cleans the air water and airates the land better than any other plant can be grown anywhere and has a short cycle so can be grown after crop harvest . its insane just how good it is . and no it isnt the smoking kind :D
http://www.rawganique.com/whyhemp.htm
Lim till i die
17/01/2007, 11:17 AM
the world is pretty much ****ed. Not for us, but for the next generation and beyond.
Exactly
Who Cares??
I'm off to spray two lynx cans at the sun :p :)
rebs23
17/01/2007, 11:42 AM
If we do accept that the world is heating up, are people here honestly suggesting that there are any practical measures that can be done by mankind to reverse this?
Even if everyone stopped using cars, flying etc, and we all went back to some luddite vision of a society do you honestly believe that global warning will reverse?
There is nothing that can be done about it. All the triple glazing, new technologies etc, will never reverse it. Climate change has always been with us and always will.
There is a strong scientific view that global warning will eventually cause the next ice age do to the inteference with sea currrents in the North Atlantic, etc. There are a whole range of views and scientific debate on this and to believe that a few measures such as banning fossil fuels (due to run out anyway) triple glazing, banning air travel or making it more expensive or reducing C02 emissions will have any major impact on climate change is naieve at best.
Don't know if can reverse but I suppose we can slow down the changes. However for every environmentally concerned Western Nation there will be 2 third world countries polluting twice as much. Just look at Chinese Industry. BBC News did report on most polluted city in Europe which was in Romania last night & will take decades to clean that up.
Increased price of oil is all the only thing that will make individuals & states change.
As pete said, it's not about preventing global warming, it's about stopping the acceleration caused by humans and the normal cycle being pushed out of sync. Since when in the past has there been such burning of fossil fuels?
rebs23
18/01/2007, 8:25 PM
Our choices on fuel and energy sources will in the end be dictated by economics as fossil fuels run out not by regulation. Trying to stop climate change/global warning in any shape or form is almost impossible and we are effectively asking the 2nd and 3rd worlds to stay poor and stop developing.
If we are going to spend money on environmental areas then we are better off promoting and financing the alternatives, making them cheaper and more economic and stop trying enforce ridiclous measures/regulation which are costly and have no long term benefit and do little to reduce or decelerate climate change.
Recycling and the benefits of that are questionable, banning fossil fuels is a non starter, so all other measures are only tinkering around the edges.
BohsPartisan
18/01/2007, 9:31 PM
Our choices on fuel and energy sources will in the end be dictated by economics as fossil fuels run out not by regulation. Trying to stop climate change/global warning in any shape or form is almost impossible and we are effectively asking the 2nd and 3rd worlds to stay poor and stop developing.
Since when were they developing? Nigeria, the country that is richest in fossil fuels in Africa certainly isn't. A small national elite in the pockets of Royal Dutch Shell ensure that all the wealth in that country is exported without any benefit for the general population.The majority live without electricity or even tarmaced roads. The mud roads turn into rivers of mud in the rainy season. Russia, with its immense mineral wealth is if anything regressing, Oh it might be keeping a Chelsea in superstars but the majority of the population are living in squalor. The proliferation of fossil fuels benefits only a tiny minority who control this wealth. For 2nd and 3rd world countries they have brought nothing but misery. We need to develope alternative's within the next 20 years. Thats a liberal estimate. In all probablity we have less time than that. Is that a price you are willing to pay? The anhilation of thousands of years of civilisation? The possible extinction of our species? Its that bloody serious.
Buller
18/01/2007, 9:50 PM
"Further global warming of 1 °C defines a critical threshold. Beyond that we will likely see changes that make Earth a different planet than the one we know." James Hansen
Scary... The world is definatly changing, there's no doubt about that. Its global warming, there's definatly no doubt about that either. It might be too late already, even if all CO2 emissions were drastically cut today to save the planet. We have already triggered a chain of reactions which will ultimatly lead to our demise... The melting of the polar ice caps cannot be stopped now and the effects of this on europe are scary. Most of europe's warmth comes from the north atlantic drift, or "gulf stream", a warm current of water stemming from the warm equatorial gulf. If/when this stream is interupted by the cool/freezing water being created by the melting of the arctic, europe would become as cold as russia/siberia which is of the same latitude as us... As i said, scary because its happening in front of our very eyes. :o
(in short, we're fuked, not enough is being done. drastic times call for drastic measures to be taken, which they are not...)
Recycling has the benefit of less landfills of which no one wants next door to them. I am suspicious of recycling as i suspect some of the whats collected for recycling is actually dumped in landfils. Combined with incineration we could eliminate landfills almost completely. I see advert in todays paper saying we now recycling 35% which is 8 years ahead of target. Does not say much for the target initially.
Nigeria is a tribal basketcase. Might have been optimistic to think Russia could move from communism into democracy so easily & now in sort of quasi one party state again.
I've no doubt some elite making out like bandits but the increased price of oil & gas can't help but filter some money down to the masses. Whatever situation they in they better than communism.
BohsPartisan
19/01/2007, 10:19 AM
. Whatever situation they in they better than communism.
Quite clearly not Pete if you are talking about Russia. I have produced figures over and over that shows that despite the corruption and bureaucratic mismanagement of the Soviet Union, the majority were materially better off than they are now. I won't harp on about it here because its the wrong thread but for reference:
Previously on foot.ie... (http://www.foot.ie/showpost.php?p=559889&postcount=57)
rebs23
21/01/2007, 2:34 PM
I won't harp on about it here [/URL]
That would be a first!:)
anto1208
23/01/2007, 9:56 AM
Farming 6% of the argi land in the USA could provide all the USA's needs for fuel , Reducing its dependancy on oil to 0% by switching to this Bio-fuel . Ford and the american military consider this natural oil the best for machine parts .This plant grows anywhere in the world , with out the needs of pesticides (50% of all pestisides are sprayed on cotton plants ) .
Growing of this plant because of it cleaning properties could start to reverse the greenhouse effect in as little as ten years .
i typed this as clearly with the amount of "it cant be reversed" comments no one read the link which clearly shows that it can be reversed and quite easily .
BohsPartisan
23/01/2007, 10:33 AM
There's an easy solution to this problem. Use the UN as a big generator. There's enough hot air in there to cater for the planet's power needs.
Farming 6% of the argi land in the USA could provide all the USA's needs for fuel....
I find this hard to believe. Got a link? How much energy does it take to process bio-fuel? Surely not this simple...
anto1208
23/01/2007, 10:54 AM
I find this hard to believe. Got a link? How much energy does it take to process bio-fuel? Surely not this simple...
http://www.rawganique.com/whyhemp.htm
its a little long but worth the read its quite amazing at all the plus points .
truely a gift from God :D
Also at the bottom there is a link to a second page which includes info on the essential fatty acids and oils we hear about , hemp seeds are the most healty of all plant foods .
Its a crime that humans arent using this plant to its full potential it just might save us .
Recycling has the benefit of less landfills of which no one wants next door to them.
Less landfills is an environmental benefit in itself.
I am suspicious of recycling as i suspect some of the whats collected for recycling is actually dumped in landfils.
I would naturally be a cynic (realist), but then how do you explain the recycling bags being cheaper for households than the landfill ones? Not saying you're wrong, but if you're right we're being ripped off for the general waste.
Combined with incineration we could eliminate landfills almost completely.
The modern incinerators are very clean and also have the capability to be energy producing at the same time. I'd rather live within a mile of an incinerator than a landfill - less smell, less leakage into groundwater, less gasses released straight into the environment. Each county should have it's own facility, so then you reduce the transportation costs as well.
All the triple glazing, new technologies etc, will never reverse it
They do, however, at least reduces our contribution to global warming. Even to a right wing capalist like yourself this makes sense - fossil fuels a scarce resource, going to get scarcer, which will lead to increased costs. If we become less reliant on them now, we'll benefit economically in the future, and we have the resources to do this now. For example, It's shameful that the Government delayed the increasing insulation spec's during the greatest housebuilding years this state has seen - and for once even they can't come up with a viable excuse - it would've been bad for their developer buddies.
I would naturally be a cynic (realist), but then how do you explain the recycling bags being cheaper for households than the landfill ones? Not saying you're wrong, but if you're right we're being ripped off for the general waste.
I've nothing back this up just a cynic too.
I live in apartment where the City Council will not collect refuse (we would have to move 20-25 large bins out onto the road which would block the entrance. Anyway waste bull is 45-50k a year with no recycling because private operator would charge an extra 20k a year to do this. I am suspicious whether they would recycle anyway as could just charge extra for & pay to dump in landfill with the rest of the waste...
Less landfills good. Without being an expert I am broadly in favour of incinerators as best of list of bad alternatives - i don't understand people who complain about as zero waste is impossible. Maybe 99% is possible but will never get that last 1 %.
BohsPartisan
23/01/2007, 5:28 PM
I've nothing back this up just a cynic too.
The SP actually did some snooping on this around the time of the introduction of refuse charges and as far as I remember there was some basis to this. Info could be out of date by now though.
I guess that would explain why they're not as fussy as they might be with the recycling bags judging by what I see left out.
rebs23
24/01/2007, 3:44 PM
Even to a right wing capalist ...... It's shameful that the Government delayed the increasing insulation spec's during the greatest housebuilding years this state has seen - and for once even they can't come up with a viable excuse - it would've been bad for their developer buddies.
A right wing capitalist.... depends on your definition of right wing. Consider myself more of a liberal, anarcho capitalist free thinker myself but anyway its only a label.
Couldn't agree more about the need for greater incentives for alternative fuels. As for one plant reversing the greenhouse effect first time I've ever heard that claim about hemp. Excellent product in may ways for fuel, clothing etc, etc and other things as well :) but as for insulation specs I know these specs have increased at twice in the last 5 years. Part M I think of the Building Regs.
The problem though is that no matter how many times you change the building regs one small gap in the cavity insualtion could really mess up your u values (method of measuring heat retention in buildings.) Very difficult to implement and police with brickies chucking up the blocks and insualtion as fast as they can to earn the big dosh they are used to.
Best U Values are achieved with other new construction technologies none of which have Irish Agrement Board Approval yet and are fiercely resisted by trade unions as they effectively would wipe out blocklaying in the housebuilding sector.
So in summary it is pointless increasing the Building Reg requirements until these new methods get agrement board approval and unions stop resisting their introduction.
BohsPartisan
24/01/2007, 3:52 PM
Consider myself more of a liberal, anarcho capitalist free thinker myself but anyway its only a label.
Couldn't agree more about the need for greater incentives for alternative fuels.
Isn't there a bit of a contradiction there? Surely a libertarian would be against any kind of "incentives".
rebs23
24/01/2007, 4:14 PM
Isn't there a bit of a contradiction there? Surely a libertarian would be against any kind of "incentives".
Yes but are n't there contradictions in all politics and in the end pragmatism wins out over ideology?
BohsPartisan
24/01/2007, 4:28 PM
Yes but are n't there contradictions in all politics and in the end pragmatism wins out over ideology?
If your ideology has a base in material reality though instead of having its origins in thought processes there should be no contradiction (providing your ideology is not ossified orthodoxy)
rebs23
24/01/2007, 5:35 PM
Yes but "reality" is a different beast to different people.
BohsPartisan
25/01/2007, 7:59 AM
Yes but "reality" is a different beast to different people.
Depending on their material circumstances. Or if they are junkies, in which case they are most likely not too interested in politics.
Very difficult to implement and police with brickies chucking up the blocks and insualtion as fast as they can to earn the big dosh they are used to...
I agree. Once the blocks have been set on both sides who is to know what kind of insulation has been installed. Houses would have to be inspected during construction & that would be extremely difficult to implement...
Houses would have to be inspected during construction & that would be extremely difficult to implement...
There are insulation regulations now, so it wouldn't have been that difficult and you can test houses u values.
BohsPartisan
25/01/2007, 2:32 PM
Maybe so but the regs are nowhere near what they should be and still the developers break them if they get away with it. There is an ongoing legal action (actually could be settled now, not sure) between a number of householders in the estate acccross the road from ours and the developer over this.
Maybe so but the regs are nowhere near what they should be
That was my point. The Government have delayed the introduction of higher specs for nearly 10 years, on the basis on the effect on the building industry. This is and was totally without justification, given the level of demand and the profitablity on houses in this period it would've had little effect on developers. However, I doubt many insulation manufacturers frequent the tents of Galway Races in the same way that Builders do.
It's got to the stage that some forward thinking councils are putting insulation levels in excess of the building regulations in an effort to correct the Governments negligence on this issue.
the developers break them if they get away with it. There is an ongoing legal action (actually could be settled now, not sure) between a number of householders in the estate acccross the road from ours and the developer over this.
Of course, but there are two roads that can followed up on this. As well as the developers/ builders, buildings have to be signed off by an engineer or architect with indeminity insurance who would be liable if they signed off on a house that wasn't infact compliant. You have to put in place regulations on the assumption that they'll be met, but the regulations are not in place there is zero chance of enforcement.
kingdom hoop
29/01/2007, 6:13 PM
If we do accept that the world is heating up, are people here honestly suggesting that there are any practical measures that can be done by mankind to reverse this?
are you george bush in disguise? once the economy is fine the environment will look after itself? why dont we wait until we are all dead before trying to put ourselves together again?
i must recommend everyone watches al gore's lecture 'an inconvenient truth' (available at all good video stores). a film that is easily more horrifying than films that usually come with such a warning. one point that i particularly raised my eyebrows at was that in a sample of 900 research articles by scientists over a period of 20 or so years not a single one(nil, no one, nada) of these experts doubted that global warming was a live threat, while 53% of newspaper articles questioned global warming.
to those who dont care, i hate ye all. the world is obviously not perfect but i'd prefer ireland now than a freezing hurricane swept craggy isle. the pacific islanders of tuvalu would prefer to stay at home than move to new zealand(something their gov's have provided for.) in short, the world is moving closer to dystopia than utopia, and what are we doing only doubting and wallowing.
rebs23
30/01/2007, 7:56 PM
are you george bush in disguise? once the economy is fine the environment will look after itself? why dont we wait until we are all dead before trying to put ourselves together again?
WTF. Are you honestly saying that global warming/climate change can be reserved and if so by how many degrees? What is the safe number of degrees to go back to? Do we need a sustained period of an extra cold period to reverse the melting ice melts or will we try it gladually? if this happens are we in danger of a global ice age again? What measures will ensure that this easy task of global warming is reversed?
The most I have ever heard people propose are measures to stop the cuirrent rises in global temperature. Maybe I am wrong but I have always understood the reduction in our carbon emissions as attempts to stop the accelerating rate of climate change.
kingdom hoop
30/01/2007, 9:00 PM
WTF. Are you honestly saying that global warming/climate change can be reserved and if so by how many degrees? What is the safe number of degrees to go back to? Do we need a sustained period of an extra cold period to reverse the melting ice melts or will we try it gladually? if this happens are we in danger of a global ice age again? What measures will ensure that this easy task of global warming is reversed?
i have to laugh at that.do you think if we point cold fans up to the sky global warming will go away, by the way each person needs to point two fans for five hours three days a week at a 57 degree angle for the next six months then break for a week and continue the cycle.:p (sorry for being flippant)
it is carbon emissions we have to worry about.if we continue(with china and the us getting worse) things will be further exacerbated.i'm personally delighted some companies are taking steps, some gov's are, but its very difficult for individuals to make an effort. we can try to buy irish, cycle to work etc but without guidance/snactions on a political level we're effectively fighting a losing battle.bush the imbecile thinks technology through a healthy economy will solve the problem, having denied the problem for years in order to protect manufacturing jobs, or his own, whatever way you want to look at it.
the way we live at the moment is thoroughly unsustainable. you cant take the attitude that the environment will sort itself out because the levels of co2 in the atmosphere are ridiculously unprecedented, we just dont know what could happen, and with the evidence so far things arent going well. global warming may not be fully reversible but our way of living is, which unless we change humans wont be around much longer. i'm not blaming you of course but anyone who doubts or is unconcerned about the problem annoys me to be honest.
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