Global Warming Debate

[BohsPartisan]

Its easy, all we have to do is mine comets for giant ice cubes to drop in the sea.

[kingdom hoop]

Its easy, all we have to do is mine comets for giant ice cubes to drop in the sea.

you'll play armageddon's bruce willis i hope:cool:

rebs, the problem is a lot bigger than just temperature, seasons changing(wont someone please think of the animals) more extreme weather,hurricanes in europe recently will all screw us, well, until bohs saves the day:)

[pete]

We will all talk the talk but when it comes down to it we were to lose jobs in Ireland how many would choose the environment?

[BohsPartisan]

We will all talk the talk but when it comes down to it we were to lose jobs in Ireland how many would choose the environment?

Thats exactly why I believe the problem of the environment is unsolvable on a capitalist basis. Because the profit motive rules, employers would close if environmental measures were introduced that impinged on their profit making ability. This is why the question of Socialism is now more urgent than ever. Engels wrote that the choice was between Socialism and Barbarism. Now its between Socialism and extinction.

[pete]

Thats exactly why I believe the problem of the environment is unsolvable on a capitalist basis. Because the profit motive rules, employers would close if environmental measures were introduced that impinged on their profit making ability.

More to do with competition between Nations. If everyone on the same rules we'd be ok whereas biggest polluters are Communists countries like China & former communists like Russia & the Eastern bloc.

Capitalism is the only model that motivates for innovation in alternative energy sources. I don't see North Korea, Cuba or China driving any fuel cell cars or using wind & solar power...

[BohsPartisan]

I don't see North Korea, Cuba or China driving any fuel cell cars or using wind & solar power...


Why is China communist when it suits your arguement? It was capitalist according to you in the Socialism thread when you wanted to give an example of a successful economy. And you already know my opinions on North Korea so stop using your straw man tactic. You know I don't consider those examples to be Socialism any more than you considered the German democratic republic (East Germany) to be a democracy.

Socialist Environmentalism (http://www.socialistworld.net/eng/2002/08/19environment.html)

[kingdom hoop]

I don't see North Korea, Cuba or China driving any fuel cell cars or using wind & solar power...

i know, i've been trying to get a visa to NK for years to see what they're up to, but the main man kim il sung just isnt having it:p

not really a fair point anyway, if capitalism wasnt embraced the problem wouldnt be half as bad.china is a growing problem but only because it has *******ised itself to capitalism on a broad scale, and not because its 'communist' which would appear to confuse your point. anyway, in fact the worlds largest polluter is.. de da da da the home of capitalism the mighty us of a.

all this philosophical meandering has led me to question who is our, ie capitalism, guiding philosopher and what was his thesis on the way of life..henry ford? was he concerned with the wider society? throughout history there have always been great thinkers that shaped the way we thought and lived, now we have..ah.....am i delusional, disenfranchised, too negative or what??

[kingdom hoop]

woah, just looking at my post above you'd swear i've been indoctrinated by mr.partisan..not quite the case.
although capitalism and its cosy partner political democracy are definitely to blame for the impending doom the answer lies not in an all out revolt on society, but rather a collective paradigm shift(no better waffle words!) on personal and corporate levels. governments should have(and i've no doubt would have under socialism!) acted at this stage. but failing that it is good to see that companies are taking some measure of responsibility, for eg the US Climate Action Partnership was recently established by ten large companies who are campaigning for the cap and trade program; legislation that would set a limit on emissions with any companies that undercut the level(cap) allowed to trade the remainder to companies that exceed the limit. as ever, the redoubtable president bush is a barrier to such legislation..where oh where is my gun. bush would do well to take on board the views of stephen hawking on this(although typically bland the point is important)
"The effects may be less dramatic in the short term than the destruction that could be wrought by nuclear explosions, but over the next three to four decades climate change could cause drastic harm."
we all know how worked up bush got about so called weapons of mass destruction, akin to the nuclear explosions hawkings alludes to...so, i wonder will a war on deforestation in the amazon be launched, a war on smog bound china, a war on SUVs with billions of dollars and thousands of troops? :(

[BohsPartisan]

. but failing that it is good to see that companies are taking some measure of responsibility, for eg the US Climate Action Partnership was recently established by ten large companies who are campaigning for the cap and trade program;


You see Capitalists are not all evil people, its the system thats the problem. There will always be a lot of well intentioned capitalists who are not as short sighted as others when it comes to the environment. Ditto for nations and politicians. The problem is to reverse the environmental damage, we need every country and every industry to comply. Under the profit driven market this is not possible. One of two things happen. Either the well intentioned capitalists get driven out of business by the more cost efficient but less conciensous producers or they succumb to the pressure of if you can't beat 'em join 'em. Thats why you need the commanding heights of the economy in public hands under a DEMOCRATIC plan of production.

[First]

BohsPartisan

You are obviously a very intelligent individual who uses their thought process to engage in often enlightening and somewhat egotisitical debates on what is good for the world. I enjoy and agree with a lot of your statements but there has been one thing that has been bugging me for ages .

Are you Hyde from the Thats 70 Show ;)

[BohsPartisan]

Are you Hyde from the Thats 70 Show ;)

No, he's my father in law.

[dahamsta]

Rofl :)

[osarusan]

Rofl :)


I hate to sound stupid, but what does this mean............I know LMAO, NSFW........but rofl?

[dahamsta]

http://www.google.ie/search?q=rofl

[osarusan]

cheers.

[pete]

Ireland.com: UN Climate Panel Report (http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/brhttp://foot.ie/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=615634eaking/2007/0202/breaking7.htm)


The UN climate panel issued its strongest warning yet today that human activities are heating the planet.

The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), the most authoritative group on warming, comprising 2,500 scientists from more than 130 nations, predicted more severe rains, melting glaciers, droughts, heatwaves and rising sea levels, especially if Antarctica or Greenland thaw.

The final text said it was "very likely", or a probability of more than 90 per cent, that human activities led by burning fossil fuels explained most of the warming in the past 50 years.

That is a toughening from the last report, in 2001, when the IPCC said the link was "likely", or 66 per cent probable. Signs of change range from drought in Australia to record high January temperatures in Europe.

Hardly brings anything new to the debate as just summaries other reports...

[BohsPartisan]

I know, all these "revelations" they are coming out with are things the dogs in the street knew about 15 years ago.

[kingdom hoop]

I know, all these "revelations" they are coming out with are things the dogs in the street knew about 15 years ago.


ya, we could do with some sun editor in there to sensationalise something that is actually worthy of bringing to the attention to the masses(compare to big brother,argh:eek: ) i'd like to see a survey done asking people what they knew about global warming, i bet they'd no more about jade goody's early teenage years spent on a pig farm in deepest devon

by the way i read that socialist manifesto on the environment. i'd agree with a lot of it, its pretty comprehensive and given its four years old the current situation is shown up even more. but do you realistically think a united socialist front can sweep the world soon enough to solve the problem? if mankind can live a happy life under socialism could we not also bind under capitalism and evoke our survival instincts?

[kingdom hoop]

i just stumbled across a funny(in light of the above) story from one of the contributors of earlier reports on hurricanes and their link to global warming. http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/story.html?id=ae9b984d-4a1c-45c0-af24-031a1380121a&k=0
in short the man says that there was a press release saying that there was a causal link between global warming and hurricanes before any scientists concluded or advised on the issue, so he resigned his position on the study. todays report is the first one without him. hurricanes are very odd and tend to be cyclical and influenced by a range of factors such that their study doesnt lend itself to conclusive answers. i guess the moral is that scientists hate to be misrepresented, which adds further credence to todays report, and that people in power are willing to adapt and shape the truth for their benefit

[pete]

carbon emissions per capita (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions_per_ capita)

Some very surprising figures & Ireland highest of Western Europe countries with Denmark (you would think they a Green country) just behind us. As those figures a few years out of date we will definitely be higher up the list now.

Ireland is addicated to fossil fuels so maybe time for the nuclear debate again.

[theleprechaun]

i think that all this hype should serve to make politicans take more responsibity especially america. with america not in the kyoto protcol it is really only a joke. it will not work unless we all change. and we need to change

[pete]

Surely a partial solution is to plant a lot more trees. Scandanavian countries probably have lower Net figures as their land mass covered in trees. Ireland has very few trees left.

[anto1208]

Starting to see the effects all ready i had to cut the grass today :D

[kingdom hoop]

Surely a partial solution is to plant a lot more trees. Scandanavian countries probably have lower Net figures as their land mass covered in trees. Ireland has very few trees left.


you have a point that our national level of emissions would be improved with more trees. however any gains we make will pale in light of the continuing destruction of the Amazon, a truly harrowing scenario. at current rates of deforestation it will be gone within a hundred years, and with it the wonderful flora and fauna that conjure mystical images of centuries old tribes, carnivorous fish and treetops bustling with chirping chicks inhaling their first sweet scent of forest life. a lot of global warming is a vicious cycle of ironic causes and effects. and here is no different as two thirds of brazil's co2 emissions are a result of the burning and logging of the world's lungs, our mightiest forest:eek:

wasnt it the english that burned most of our trees round plantation time, god, irony seems to be following me like a long shadow on a sunny summers day(when you look back at it you've no idea how it got there nor are you pleased to see it, you just know mistakes were made and the missus shoudnt fill you with wine at lunch):)

[BohsPartisan]

from unison.ie (indo)


German car-makers weaken new EU green law


GERMAN car manufacturers have succeeded in weakening new pan-European rules designed to reduce emissions from new vehicles.

The heads of BMW, Volkswagen and DaimlerChrysler took part in last-minute lobbying to block proposals that would have forced manufacturers to make lighter cars with smaller, more fuel-efficient engines.

They demanded that Jose Manuel Barroso, President of the European Commission, withdraw a proposed new emissions standard, claiming that the German industry, which makes most of its profits from large, fuel-hungry cars, would be penalised unfairly.




Read the rest... (http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=27&si=1770675&issue_id=15222)

[kingdom hoop]

with the support of angela merkel too, i thought women would have been more sympathetic and in touch with their environmental side, i guess german women are different.

scientists and economists offered money to dispute climate report.
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/world/2007/0202/1170363380564.html (this)
shows how bad things are. one line sums it up nicely; "They are White House surrogates in the last throes of their campaign of climate change denial. They lost on the science; they lost on the moral case for action. All they've got left is a suitcase full of cash."

[kingdom hoop]

Surely a partial solution is to plant a lot more trees. Scandanavian countries probably have lower Net figures as their land mass covered in trees. Ireland has very few trees left.


hmmm, looks like you may have hit the nail on the head, or tree with the saw. check thishttp://www.economist.com/daily/columns/greenview/displayStory.cfm?story_id=8653021&fsrc=RSS (http://www.economist.com/daily/columns/greenview/displayStory.cfm?story_id=8653021&fsrc=RSS)
it out. the piece contains one brilliant quote from a fund manager; "Even with 25 years of civil war,trees grow."

[BohsPartisan]

EPA finds surge in levels of greenhouse emissions
Liam Reid, Political Reporter

Greenhouse gas emission levels in Ireland have risen steeply for the first time in four years, a report to be published next week will show.

The records, to be released by the Environmental Protection Agency, are expected to reveal that greenhouse gas emissions have surged by more than one million tonnes, to a figure in the region of 70 million tonnes a year.

The rise, believed to be close to 2 per cent, is expected to be the largest since 2001, and will leave Ireland with one of the highest rates of emissions per head of population in the world.

It will see emissions levels at over 25 per cent above 1990 levels, 12 percentage points higher than the Kyoto target.


Read the rest (http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/frontpage/2007/0206/1170363707003.html)

[pete]

If we grew more trees in Ireland could build more timber frame hosues which are more environmentally sound as well as reducing timber imports. More supply means timber prices would drop too so cheaper houses.

[BohsPartisan]

The big problem is still Carbon emissions. That means in addition to planting trees we need to investigate alternative fuel sources and fast.

[osarusan]

If we grew more trees in Ireland could build more timber frame hosues which are more environmentally sound as well as reducing timber imports. More supply means timber prices would drop too so cheaper houses.

The problem is that it will take a few years for that investment to pay off, if it ever does. I know my parents planted about 3,000 trees on our land about 20 years ago, under some government scheme which promised healthy profits, only to be told recently that there would be no profit at all, however the govt. would be willing to "take the trees off their hands".

And I think that, sadly, but understandably, people will need financial incentives to take the necessary steps to protect the environment.

[Macy]

The problem is that it will take a few years for that investment to pay off, if it ever does.
Sure you'd have a load of people campaigning to "save the trees" when it comes down to harvest them, as witnessed on the news last night. Coiltte starting to cut down the trees in the Dublin Mountains to sell on, and people giving out about the lose of amenity and scar on the landscape. I'm not sure they grasped why they were planted in the first place :rolleyes:

[pete]

Coiltte starting to cut down the trees in the Dublin Mountains to sell on, and people giving out about the lose of amenity and scar on the landscape. I'm not sure they grasped why they were planted in the first place :rolleyes:

I presume they were of spruce variety or similar?

Reason not to listen to protestors....

[BohsPartisan]

Reason not to listen to protestors....


:rolleyes:

Jesus Pete, you find one case of unjustified protest and deduce that all protests are unjustified?
You truely are the master of straw clutching.

[NY Hoop]

http://www.irish-forestry.ie

KOH

[pete]

Jesus Pete, you find one case of unjustified protest and deduce that all protests are unjustified?
You truely are the master of straw clutching.

:D

It really is...

[dahamsta]

It is pete. Should I start ignoring your complaints about other WUMs on the site now?

Same rules apply to you as to everyone else. Knock it on the head or don't post in CA any more please.

adam

[NY Hoop]

Government departments dont exactly play their part in all this. Lights left on, heat left on, cleaners spraying that air "freshener" crap around.

How can the government expect its citizens to behave responsibly to the environment when they waste so much?

KOH

[BohsPartisan]

Government departments dont exactly play their part in all this. Lights left on, heat left on, cleaners spraying that air "freshener" crap around.

How can the government expect its citizens to behave responsibly to the environment when they waste so much?

KOH

Good point.
If I'm last out of my section I always switch the lights off but you do see loads left on.

[pete]

Its it more efficient to leave the lights on? Those bulbs have shorter shelf lift if they switched one and off...

[Schumi]

Its it more efficient to leave the lights on? Those bulbs have shorter shelf lift if they switched one and off...
Turning them off for the night, once a day, would hardly have much of an impact.

[Lim till i die]

http://environment.guardian.co.uk/energy/story/0,,2022934,00.html

Well, well, well, Al Gore and the $30,000 utilities bill

An Inconvenient Truth indeed :rolleyes:

[BohsPartisan]

Saw that yesterday. Thats what the Green movement gets for making people like that spokespersons.
Next up, how Bono flew a hat around the world.

[dahamsta]

He drives an SUV too, has to because of who he is. I drive a 525i BMW, it doesn't stop me caring about the environment; it just means I feel the need to enjoy myself in a way that's considered harmful, like smoking (I quit) or going to the pub (it feels like I've quit!). It's all about balance. I'd be willing to bet that my carbon footprint is still well below average. I'd be willing to bet that Gore's is too, for a man in his position. I wonder how much Bush consumes in his day-to-day life...

adam

[BohsPartisan]

Bet Bono's isn't though.

[dahamsta]

Yeah, but then Hewson is a muppet.

[jebus]

Now now lads, Bono has single handedly saved Africa from itself, brought the Darfur genocide leaders to justice and made George Bush a pot of tea in the last few days alone, so I think he's entitled to destroy the enviroment as much as likes

[strangeirish]

http://environment.guardian.co.uk/energy/story/0,,2022934,00.html

Well, well, well, Al Gore and the $30,000 utilities bill

An Inconvenient Truth indeed :rolleyes:


He drives an SUV too, has to because of who he is. I drive a 525i BMW, it doesn't stop me caring about the environment; it just means I feel the need to enjoy myself in a way that's considered harmful, like smoking (I quit) or going to the pub (it feels like I've quit!). It's all about balance. I'd be willing to bet that my carbon footprint is still well below average. I'd be willing to bet that Gore's is too, for a man in his position. I wonder how much Bush consumes in his day-to-day life...

adam

A little clarification on the source of this story and a few facts that were conveniently omitted. Keith Olbermann (http://youtube.com/watch?v=dk8Gt025nwI) setting the record straight.

[Lim till i die]

http://www.channel4.com/science/microsites/G/great_global_warming_swindle/index.html

Could be worth a look :confused:

[jebus]

http://www.channel4.com/science/microsites/G/great_global_warming_swindle/index.html

Could be worth a look :confused:

Don't know, I was reading the preview for this docu yesterday and basically it was,

'Don't believe everything you see in a documentary, statistics can be used to prove/disprove anything........watch our documentary and get the truth, we use statistics to prove that global warming is a natural occurance'

sounds dodgy