Bohs v Shels

[Sheridan]

Just think back a few years ago. Waterford United beat Dublin City and played an illegal player. Waterford were deducted three points but Dublin City wanted the game replayed. However, at that stage, the FAI didn't grant Dublin City their wish. Dublin City missed out in finishing in third place in the First Division to Finn Harps by two points. Because of their protest, appeals etc. the play-off between Finn Harps and Longford Town was delayed by almost three weeks. This is the exact same situation as to the one with Shels, but the FAI today made a completely different ruling - no consistency.
Didn't want to be the one to raise that, but it occurred to me immediately (furthermore, the ineligible player scored the goal which effectively deprived DC of a play-off berth. If that's not a blatant breach of natural justice I don't know what is.)

But really, I don't understand where this indignation is coming from. When the clubs ceded responsibility for such a fundamental aspect of professional football as the composition of the league itself, they effectively granted Delaney unfettered executive power. (While I agree to some extent with Dodge's earlier post on the subject, it's not true that the fans opposed this en bloc; most either shut up pretty smartly when they realised how handsomely their own clubs would benefit, or began spinning frantically in the opposite direction.)

You do all realise that "the interests of fair play" is a catchall which means whatever Delaney wants it to mean, and is now legally enshrined in precedent?

[wws]

Didn't want to be the one to raise that, but it occurred to me immediately (furthermore, the ineligible player scored the goal which effectively deprived DC of a play-off berth. If that's not a blatant breach of natural justice I don't know what is.)

But really, I don't understand where this indignation is coming from. When the clubs ceded responsibility for such a fundamental aspect of professional football as the composition of the league itself, they effectively granted Delaney unfettered executive power. (While I agree to some extent with Dodge's earlier post on the subject, it's not true that the fans opposed this en bloc; most either shut up pretty smartly when they realised how handsomely their own clubs would benefit, or began spinning frantically in the opposite direction.)

You do all realise that "the interests of fair play" is a catchall which means whatever Delaney wants it to mean, and is now legally enshrined in precedent?


im open to correction here but tisnt the dealeyoh - yeah we accept the merger - new rulebook gets drafted and kicked in for next years format?

at the moment we're in the limbo stage between formats

thats why we still have EL decisions and FAI decisions runnin concurrently
and contradicting each other


we have the current mess cos this is the last year the clubs can play one rule book off the other

with predicatble carnage resulting

[DvB]

This is the same rovers who were bankrupt a couple of years ago and dont even have a home ground?? If they GAA get their way you wont either. What ya gonna do then??

The same rovers who have since gotten their house in order & when the GAA get kicked into touch will have a similar (if not better) ground deal than Dundalk have. Dundalk FC dont own their ground & no longer own Hyney Park either, so basically you have a lease of some description or other, end of story!! After that point is addressed i'd be quite confident our club is run in a superior manner if both games at Oriel Park this season are anything to go by.

Koh

[holidaysong]

We have a deal whereby as long as we wish to use Oriel Park to play our games it is ours to use. If we decide to move in the future then Oriel Park cannot be touched until we have played our first game in the new ground. How is that similar to what Rovers currently have?

[WeAreRovers]

at the moment we're in the limbo stage between formats

thats why we still have EL decisions and FAI decisions runnin concurrently
and contradicting each other


That's the nub of the matter and also the opportunity to tell them to stick their league and association where the sun don't shine.

KOH

[NY Hoop]

Come back to us when you have some control over the people you allow into your ground.

Compare how you were treated in tolka twice to how we were treated up there.

KOH

[Paraic]

We have a deal whereby as long as we wish to use Oriel Park to play our games it is ours to use. If we decide to move in the future then Oriel Park cannot be touched until we have played our first game in the new ground. How is that similar to what Rovers currently have?

Lads don't get sucked into this kind of handbags in this thread.

I think wws is right, the merged league and rules will hopefully get rid of all the confusion.

For me, the fairest and simplest outcome is an automatic 3-0 score awarded to the opposition (assuming the actual result is no better) along with a hefty fine (on a sliding scale, depending on the actual result - ie if they lose three points, smaller fine etc ) for the team fielding the suspended player.

[Jerry The Saint]

Media Statement a h-aon

The FAI Appeal Board, having consulted all the available documentation and heard oral evidence, made the following decision:

• Deduction of three points against Bohemian F.C. to stand.

• Match between Bohemian FC and Shelbourne FC to be replayed at the original venue.

• Match between Bohemian FC and Shelbourne FC to be replayed as a matter of urgency.

The reasons for the FAI Appeal Board decision were as follows:

• The deduction of points against Bohemians FC stands due to the ineligibility of the Bohemians FC player.

• The Eircom League Premier Division match between Bohemian FC and Shelbourne FC is to be replayed in the interests of Fair Play.


Media Statement a dó

Following the decision of the FAI Appeal Board in relation to the Bohemians v Shelbourne fixture, eircom League Chairman Paddy McCaul has convened a meeting of the Board of Control for this Friday, November 3rd to consider the decision.

No further statement will be made at this time.

-o-

Below and attached is an updated Premier Division table reflecting the decision. Also attached is an updated Premier Division goalscorers list reflecting same.

-o-

Wait a sec, if the goalscorers list needs to be updated, does this mean that the original game has been expunged (Home Farm-style) from the records? So why would it need to be replayed then:confused:

If goals scored are being ignored, what about bookings incurred and suspensions? Which brings us back to the earlier point - can McGuinness play in this 'replay' and who should Bohs contact to find out who is eligible? (Ollie may have to supply them with a list of players)

[holidaysong]

What a complete mess...

Does the fact that the eL Board of Control are meeting to consider the FAI decision mean that they can choose to ignore it?

[bohs til i die]

Wait a sec, if the goalscorers list needs to be updated, does this mean that the original game has been expunged (Home Farm-style) from the records? So why would it need to be replayed then:confused:

If goals scored are being ignored, what about bookings incurred and suspensions? Which brings us back to the earlier point - can McGuinness play in this 'replay' and who should Bohs contact to find out who is eligible? (Ollie may have to supply them with a list of players)



Lurch has already served his suspension so is eligible to play.

[dcfcsteve]

Every club should do this. Deliberately played suspended players and keep getting re-plays.


Doge, just to point out, Bohs never appealed the punishment handed out 5/6 weeks ago. We are being told we have to replay the game by the FAI because Ollie appealed.

Now there's a gap in the rule book that needs fixing.

Surely no-one should be able to appeal a decision re another club ? Shels weren't a party to the decision/penalty, so should'nt be aloowed to appeal it.

Interesting to see the reason the FAI have given for their decision is "Fair Play" ! Does that mean the rules are now at the mercy of the FAI's discretion dependent upon their view of fair play ?

And if Fair Play was such an over-riding concern, then why didn't Shels play fair and tell Bohs about the suspension before the game started ? Fair play my arse....

:mad:

[Student Mullet]

Aren't Bohs entitled to 2 weeks notice of any rearranged game? Shels would have to play them the night before the final league game, messing up their preperations or after the league ends, which would certainly be subject to appeal.

[paudie]

I don't it is... whilst Rovers did appeal and took their case to arbitration... Dundalk did not make any effort at any stage to look for a replay... would be totally opportunistic of them to do so now .... !!

It would be opportunistic but i'd be surprised if they didn't at least think about it.

[bohs til i die]

Aren't Bohs entitled to 2 weeks notice of any rearranged game? Shels would have to play them the night before the final league game, messing up their preperations or after the league ends, which would certainly be subject to appeal.


and with a game on November 14th in Dalymount [Ireland v Scotland B international] and our players on holidays from November 18th/19th I cannot see when this will be played.

[dfx-]

2006 - A good year for Irish football......






:D :mad: :D

[Gareth]

Thansk to all who offered teh rule book, it was almost thrown at me at one point :) hehe

[lofty9]

Thansk to all who offered teh rule book, it was almost thrown at me at one point :) hehe

and I threw the FAI one at you.:o

It's gonna be exciting when the FAI take control of things, what a mess they are.

If this goes to arbitration, who makes the final decision in the process?

[Gareth]

Possibly the decision could come down to Paper Scissors Rock. But that system could prove too complex.

[Anto McC]

Just when you thought they couldn't get any worse,just when you thought they couldn't make another absolutely terrible decision,just when you thought they couldn't be anymore detrimental to our national league.......

Ladies and Gentlemen,i give you........the FAI

[passerrby]

never in the field of human sporting has so much damage been done to so many by so few,
I will never attempt to defend the FAI again. Bloody idiots

[passerrby]

and may i also say that when we talk about the el been a joke we have to remember that this was not just the fai who ****ed up here, clubs have made a laugh of our league by playing fast and loose with the rules so i think we should all take a bow

[OneRedArmy]

Possibly the decision could come down to Paper Scissors Rock. But that system could prove too complex.You'd certainly have to take into account that obscure European precedent where a very pointy sharp rock cut the paper, not to mention the incident with the blunt scissors and the industrial strength paper resulting in a shock victory for paper.

[monutdfc]

clubs have made a laugh of our league by playing fast and loose with the rules so i think we should all take a bow
No, just one club, and one individual associated with that club. Every time the league is dragged though the mire it seems to be Ollie Byrne driving the tractor.

There are several precedents...for example, a couple of seasons ago Jimmy Fullam played for us while suspended, we won, we were docked 3 points, Athlone Town didn't look for a replay or a 3-0 scoreline or anything.
Dundalk didn't look for a replay of the Shamrock Rovers game (in fairness, they were probably happier to keep their point than take a chance on a replay) or a 3-0 scoreline or anything.
When the Sean Hargan episode came to light, Bohs didn't go looking for a replay or a 3-0 scoreline or anything.

[Dodge]

BTW Bohs shouldn't have been edocked any points in the first ****ing place. They were told by the FAI that he was OK to play but they did the honourable thing and accepted their punishment.

Shame not everybody could be so gracious

Oh and Sheridan I should've said "some fans were against it"

[derrymac]

Paper and Scissors are being ridden Rock solid

[iceman]

So if the game is ever played is McGuinness eligible to play or not or has he served his suspension in the game that was declared void:confused:

[OneRedArmy]

Can one or more of the 4 clubs who played Derry when Hargan was "suspended" please do the decent thing and ask for a replay. In the name of fair play of course.

And lets see how Delaney burrows his way out of this.

[BohDiddley]

I hope that when this game is played every lover of the game in the country, north and south, comes to let Shelbourne, Ollie and the FAI know what they think of this charade.

[Dodge]

If I get in for free I will :D

[Jerry The Saint]

Surely no-one should be able to appeal a decision re another club ? Shels weren't a party to the decision/penalty, so should'nt be aloowed to appeal it.


Happened during the registration fiasco - in fact, I'm not even 100% sure that Shels were one of the teams Pats played while Mbabazi was ineligible. Wouldn't have stopped Ollie either way.


I hope that when this game is played every lover of the game in the country, north and south, comes to let Shelbourne, Ollie and the FAI know what they think of this charade.

Only if Ollie doesn't get a cut of the gate!:eek: :D

[dancinpants]

Happened during the registration fiasco - in fact, I'm not even 100% sure that Shels were one of the teams Pats played while Mbabazi was ineligible. Wouldn't have stopped Ollie either way.


Have I missed something? Was the registration fiasco not over Paul Marney? If its the "Marney affair" yer thinking of, Shels did play Pats in those opening games.

[Sheridan]

There were two distinct registration fiascos. The Marney one, and the Mbabazi one which Dooney attempted to cover up, from what I recall.

[chippie0001]

Just thinking about this. Why do we even have to listen to the FAI. I thought the league was run by the Eircom League until the end of the season and then the FAI take over? What have they got to do with this and why do we have to listen?

[Jaime]

when this game is played

This is one of the most worrying aspects to this mess.

[RedLegend]

Cant believe this decision....Ollie should be ashamed of himself, How can we try attract new fans to the league with clowns like Delaney running it.

I call for an absolute reform in the FAI....As if Staunton as Ireland manager wasnt enough

[OneRedArmy]

Just thinking about this. Why do we even have to listen to the FAI. I thought the league was run by the Eircom League until the end of the season and then the FAI take over? What have they got to do with this and why do we have to listen?Appeals go to the FAI currently.

Next season all decisions will be by the FAI.

So no real difference.

[bohs til i die]

Just when you thought they couldn't get any worse,just when you thought they couldn't make another absolutely terrible decision,just when you thought they couldn't be anymore detrimental to our national league.......

Ladies and Gentlemen,i give you........the FAI


If Shels fans are so against this decision why dont you all tell Ollie to reject the hearing outcome for the good of the eircom league and its integrity?

[TonyD]

There were two distinct registration fiascos. The Marney one, and the Mbabazi one which Dooney attempted to cover up, from what I recall.

There were two issues alright. Marney wasn't registered (allegedly;) )for the first 3 games of the season - one of which was v Shels at Tolka, a 1-1 draw, the Mbabazi issue covered the first 5 games. So the games concerned overlapped.

I agree with most of whats been said already. a couple of random things strike me.

1) Surely Dundalk are now entitled to a replay v Rovers. The precedent has been set.
2) The concept of "Fair Play" just seems to be FAI code for "making it up as we go" or alternativley "we're afraid of Ollie, but don't want to look as if we're bowing down to him completely, so this is the best compromise we could rustle up" Either way it seems like a very dangerous precedent.
3)I'd forgotten completely about the Dublin City/Waterford situation. How the hell can the FAI justify that ? Oh, I forgot, they don't have to. Just shows what a bit of muscle(and I thought it was all flab Ollie:p )can do.

[bohs til i die]

There were two issues alright. Marney wasn't registered (allegedly;) )for the first 3 games of the season - one of which was v Shels at Tolka, a 1-1 draw, the Mbabazi issue covered the first 5 games. So the games concerned overlapped.

I agree with most of whats been said already. a couple of random things strike me.

1) Surely Dundalk are now entitled to a replay v Rovers. The precedent has been set.
2) The concept of "Fair Play" just seems to be FAI code for "making it up as we go" or alternativley "we're afraid of Ollie, but don't want to look as if we're bowing down to him completely, so this is the best compromise we could rustle up" Either way it seems like a very dangerous precedent.
3)I'd forgotten completely about the Dublin City/Waterford situation. How the hell can the FAI justify that ? Oh, I forgot, they don't have to. Just shows what a bit of muscle(and I thought it was all flab Ollie:p )can do.



Bohs can now also demand a replay for a defeat to Derry when Hargan played and was allegedly suspended.

[Gareth]

Let me start by saying that I think its all a crock of crap whats going on.

But I would like to point out playing a SUSPENDED player, is different to playing an UNREGISTERED player. I would also like to state that every club has a right to appeal and also a right to see things get carried out the way the rules dictate, and if these things are not carried out correctly then they can raise the issues.

Numerous clubs appeal decisions, raise issues, etc. In this case Shels raised the issue. If the rulebook was correctly written, then the case would have been closed promptly rather than the crap that occured and the stuttering from teh EL/FAI.

I don't like football being brought to a court/commitee etc,but if the club in question has an issuse, then thats the porcess used. Rovers should have right to be ****ed off royally. Derry fans should question the slating of Shels appealling when they also appealled a decision via this route to get their case heard.

Basically it boils down to a **** league administration when it comes to a decent rulebook and everyone knows, if push comes to shove, Ollie will shove, and then shove a little more. However point out what he has done outside the rules of normal process in this case. I may not like it, but to say Shels are at fault here, I say nay its the league and its lack of consistancy and solid rules.

[bohs til i die]

Let me start by saying that I think its all a crock of crap whats going on.

But I would like to point out playing a SUSPENDED player, is different to playing an UNREGISTERED player. I would also like to state that every club has a right to appeal and also a right to see things get carried out the way the rules dictate, and if these things are not carried out correctly then they can raise the issues.

Numerous clubs appeal decisions, raise issues, etc. In this case Shels raised the issue. If the rulebook was correctly written, then the case would have been closed promptly rather than the crap that occured and the stuttering from teh EL/FAI.

I don't like football being brought to a court/commitee etc,but if the club in question has an issuse, then thats the porcess used. Rovers should have right to be ****ed off royally. Derry fans should question the slating of Shels appealling when they also appealled a decision via this route to get their case heard.

Basically it boils down to a **** league administration when it comes to a decent rulebook and everyone knows, if push comes to shove, Ollie will shove, and then shove a little more. However point out what he has done outside the rules of normal process in this case. I may not like it, but to say Shels are at fault here, I say nay its the league and its lack of consistancy and solid rules.

so why dont you and all the other Shels fans/minions gang up and tell ollie to refuse the offer of a replay?

[Dodge]

But I would like to point out playing a SUSPENDED player, is different to playing an UNREGISTERED player
Whats the difference gareth?

[Gareth]

I don't even know where to start in telling you how futile that would be. And its not a case that shels can refuse, it would go to a Arbitration, which can only be brought about by shels or the league and the final decision would nto be up to them. As much as the league is a joke the way it is run, Shels fans still want their club to survive and continue. A protest would go mainly on deaf ears, I am pretty sure. Some clubs are not run by fans. Nor are they a democracy. The issue though is not Shels, its the decision of the FAI. Shels mentioned a numebr of scenerios that could happen. None of which the FAI was bound by, They made their decision and as by the rules, we abide by it, or suffer the consequences.

[Gareth]

Whats the difference gareth?

One is Unregistered, as in not registered in the league to play. The other is a registered player, suspended for a game. I will consult my newly acquired rule book and see if their are separate rules for each scenerio.

[Duffman]

Its gonna be great explaining this whole scenario to the masses after "The Premiership" on Saturday night. The pub will love this :(

[Gareth]

UNREGISTERED

19.11 Any Club found to have played an un-registered player or players in any match under the jurisdiction of the League (save as otherwise provided for in the competition rules for the U21 League) shall be fined €2,500 per match and shall forfeit three points per match in which the player has played in as an unregistered player.

19.12 In circumstances where the General Manager is satisfied that the failure to register a player(s) was due to human error and there was no intent to contravene the rule on the part of either the Club or the player in question and in circumstances where the League has not notified the Club of the non-registration of the player, discretion may be exercised to reduce the penalty to a minimum of three points.

No mention in that rule of suspended.

21.4 In a match under the jurisdiction of the League any Club playing a player who is under suspension by the FAI or the F.A.I. National League will have three points deducted from its score in respect of each match the suspended player has participated in and be liable to such other penalty as the Board decides. The onus is upon the Club to satisfy itself that the player is not under suspension


Two different rules governing two different situations Dodge. I think I explained that well enough for no confusion?

[garyderry]

UNREGISTERED

19.11 Any Club found to have played an un-registered player or players in any match under the jurisdiction of the League (save as otherwise provided for in the competition rules for the U21 League) shall be fined €2,500 per match and shall forfeit three points per match in which the player has played in as an unregistered player.

19.12 In circumstances where the General Manager is satisfied that the failure to register a player(s) was due to human error and there was no intent to contravene the rule on the part of either the Club or the player in question and in circumstances where the League has not notified the Club of the non-registration of the player, discretion may be exercised to reduce the penalty to a minimum of three points.

No mention in that rule of suspended.

21.4 In a match under the jurisdiction of the League any Club playing a player who is under suspension by the FAI or the F.A.I. National League will have three points deducted from its score in respect of each match the suspended player has participated in and be liable to such other penalty as the Board decides. The onus is upon the Club to satisfy itself that the player is not under suspension


Two different rules governing two different situations Dodge. I think I explained that well enough for no confusion?


so bohs should lose 3 points and there should be NO replay, as has been applied before, and precedents set,

maybe bohs should appeal the original decision re:the suspended player, and leave them in a real mess,

[Gareth]

21.4 In a match under the jurisdiction of the League any Club playing a player who is under suspension by the FAI or the F.A.I. National League will have three points deducted from its score in respect of each match the suspended player has participated in and be liable to such other penalty as the Board decides. The onus is upon the Club to satisfy itself that the player is not under suspension


Clearly this part of the rulebook was applied for whatever reason. The league clearly acted on the extra clause in this case, whilst ignoring the entire rule in the Rovers case. I am not backing up the FAI, I am merely stating that what happened was within the rulebook, and Shels didn't make the decision (outside of the paranoia that we in fact run the league).

[garyderry]

21.4 In a match under the jurisdiction of the League any Club playing a player who is under suspension by the FAI or the F.A.I. National League will have three points deducted from its score in respect of each match the suspended player has participated in and be liable to such other penalty as the Board decides. The onus is upon the Club to satisfy itself that the player is not under suspension


Clearly this part of the rulebook was applied for whatever reason. The league clearly acted on the extra clause in this case, whilst ignoring the entire rule in the Rovers case. I am not backing up the FAI, I am merely stating that what happened was within the rulebook, and Shels didn't make the decision (outside of the paranoia that we in fact run the league).

NO, clearly NEW rules have been made up by the FAI, under the influence / pressure of $hel$ to save them from extinction

[chippie0001]

21.4 In a match under the jurisdiction of the League any Club playing a player who is under suspension by the FAI or the F.A.I. National League will have three points deducted from its score in respect of each match the suspended player has participated in and be liable to such other penalty as the Board decides. The onus is upon the Club to satisfy itself that the player is not under suspension


Clearly this part of the rulebook was applied for whatever reason. The league clearly acted on the extra clause in this case, whilst ignoring the entire rule in the Rovers case. I am not backing up the FAI, I am merely stating that what happened was within the rulebook, and Shels didn't make the decision (outside of the paranoia that we in fact run the league).


Sorry Gareth, but reading the rule, how is granting you a replay a penalty on us as per the rules. The rules can penalise us clearly more than the 3 points but this is not a penalty. Its a cop out and will not stand up in court which hopefully someone will take action on.