Northern players declaring for the Republic [Archive] - Page 5

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lopez

27/10/2006, 8:17 PM

And the really funny thing . . . when proud Brits from NI come over here to their beloved "mainland" . . . they get called Irish!
It's hilarious, you sad deluded muppets. I pity every one of you.First ever British victory for racial discrimination was by an 'Irish' unionist who objected being called 'Paddy' and 'Mick' by workmates. Think it was around 1993 or 94.

co. down green

27/10/2006, 9:39 PM

Feech

27/10/2006, 11:16 PM

Having just read through this thread I think that Not Brazil is getting a raw deal. He/she has been very consistent in what they are saying, and pretty fair-minded too in the face of baiting. It is possible to not have the same point of view but to respect others for it.

Wait 15 years and you'll be meeting plenty of people on this island who consider themselves both Irish and Polish and will have no problem living with this dual identity.....why can't we accord those who feel themselves to be Irish and British the same respect?

as_i_say

28/10/2006, 12:25 AM

-interesting debate

lest face facts.

From a footballing point of view it is imeasurably sad that god save the queen is the anthem of the north-it gives no identity whatsoever to the north-its stupid.

the north should adapt burn baby burn by ash as their anthem. kicking tune.

Not Brazil

28/10/2006, 8:49 AM

And the really funny thing . . . when proud Brits from NI come over here to their beloved "mainland" . . . they get called Irish!
It's hilarious, you sad deluded muppets. I pity every one of you.

Here's the really funny bit.

When proud Brits from England come over here from the mainland...they get called English.:eek:

Proud to be Irish and British. Happy to be called Irish when I go to the mainland - in fact, I'd be kinda insulted if I wasn't.:cool:

Not Brazil

28/10/2006, 9:11 AM

lopez,

"Ahhh, diddums. Did I hurt your feelings there by comparing you with those naughty nazis"

You'll not hurt my feelings.:)

On the contrary, you made a fool out of yourself.

Oh how I despair of those who demonise the very people they claim they wish to be "united" with.

"The comparison is simple: You claim heritage of one country. You support the occupation of it by another. Oswald Mosely, Vidkung Quisling, Marshal Petain et al all claimed to be from one country and helped/would have helped in the occupation of their country by another. Now there's a history lesson for you."

I was born within the United Kingdom on the island of Ireland.

In my view, Northern Ireland is not "occupied". Anyway, you do understand that the constitutional position of Northern Ireland is now settled, don't you?

Or maybe you missed that recent bit of history?

"Er yes they can and will

I beg to differ.

"Someone with a just a British passport, Irish. LOL :D Not Brazil, do you think if you were born in a stable you'd be a horse? Even if 400 years of ancestors were born in stables as well."

Deary me.:rolleyes:

I can hold both, or either, passports. I have held both Irish and British passports in my time. Many "unionists" have Irish passports.

"OK: I know how sad it makes you feel that I've rejected the lottery ticket of life. Tell you what, despite never having a British passport, I'm told I can still get one. Ask one of your Donegal mates that maybe for performing a blow job on me, they can have mine. That really is as much as it's worth"

I'm not sad at all. You are what you are. Not for me to tell other people what they identify as.

Maybe a little bit of pity for you that you seem to be filled up with contempt and bitterness about other people's identity - but certainly not sad!

Back to the rugby scenario a second.

A player from Northern Ireland, holding a British Passport, of Unionist inclination - should he not be playing for Ireland on account of the fact that, in your eyes, he's not Irish?

Not Brazil

28/10/2006, 9:30 AM

The words of Liz O'Donnell - like crc, a proper United Irelander.

"Now that the vexed quarrel over Northern Ireland with our nearest neighbour is settled perhaps we can begin to celebrate aspects of our Britishness which for too long was suppressed because of nationalistic myths?

"Unionists are a majority in Northern Ireland but a minority on the island.

"The Republic, already more diverse with immigrants, should be a warm place for those with British allegiance.

"Britain and Ireland can at last normalise what was abnormal for neighbouring countries.

"We can begin to explore with excitement and without baggage the entwined lives of Britain and Ireland our common language, literature, pre-independence history, culture and war dead."

Liz knows.;)

lopez

28/10/2006, 10:40 AM

lopez,

"Ahhh, diddums. Did I hurt your feelings there by comparing you with those naughty nazis"
You'll not hurt my feelings.On the contrary, you made a fool out of yourself. Oh how I despair of those who demonise the very people they claim they wish to be "united" with.

Whatever about your feelings, I'd be making a fool of myself if I went on ourweeminds and tried stating that I'm British on the one hand (given I've no British blood) while being actively hostile to the country on the other and wishing to change its democratic wishes. Cue any of those lunatic islamisists claiming to be British while demanding Sharia Law because of some higher power and providence (Replace British Imperialism with The Will of Allah).

"The comparison is simple: You claim heritage of one country. You support the occupation of it by another. Oswald Mosely, Vidkung Quisling, Marshal Petain et al all claimed to be from one country and helped/would have helped in the occupation of their country by another. Now there's a history lesson for you."

I was born within the United Kingdom on the island of Ireland. In my view, Northern Ireland is not "occupied". Anyway, you do understand that the constitutional position of Northern Ireland is now settled, don't you? Or maybe you missed that recent bit of history?
Firstly: The vote was taken seperately, which undermines its democratic validity. When one vote is taken to include the whole of Ireland, I'll consider the matter 'settled.' Secondly, like you, providing there are no lies or libel, I'm entitled to my views and the aspiration of an all-Ireland state and that Britain should leave is not something confined to the IRA Army council.

"Er yes they can and will
I beg to differ.

The point I'm making is that Ireland do not issue British passports, therefore it's not Ireland that can decide on whether anyone in Ireland can get a British passport. The British government has already washed its hands of unionists born in the three Ulster counties within the Republic. Only those born before 1949 can claim British 'subject status', which unlike citizenship is not passed on to children.

As a result of the 1948 Act, Irish citizens ("citizens of �ire") lost British subject status automatically on 1 January 1949 if they did not acquire citizenship of the UK & Colonies or that of another Commonwealth country, notwithstanding that the Irish Free State did not cease to be one of His Majesty's dominions until 18 April 1949.

However, section 2 of the Act allowed certain Irish citizens who were British subjects before 1949 to apply at any time to the Secretary of State to remain British subjects. Applications had to be based on:

previous Crown service under the United Kingdom government;
possession of a British passport; or
associations by way of descent, residence or otherwise with the United Kingdom or any Crown colony, protectorate, UK mandated territory or UK trust territory.
No provision was made for the retention of British nationality by Irish citizens born in the Republic of Ireland after 1948. British subject status, as distinct from citizenship of the UK & Colonies, was not transmissible by descent. SOURCE: Wikipedia

Therefore, the decision to NOT grant British citizenship to the descendants of Irish unionists within the 26 counties was taken by the British government. As with ethnic Britons in all its former colonies that allowed dual nationality - the 26C, Rhodesia, South Africa, Kenya etc. - the decision to deny them British citizenship was the British government, not the hosts. E.g. Had you been born on the other side of the border but with the same British ethnicity, you could not claim British citizenship today. This may not bother you, but it does bother some people.

"Someone with a just a British passport, Irish. LOL. Not Brazil, do you think if you were born in a stable you'd be a horse? Even if 400 years of ancestors were born in stables as well."
Deary me.I can hold both, or either, passports. I have held both Irish and British passports in my time. Many "unionists" have Irish passports.
You don't say!:eek: The most famous being 'Coco' White, although there are rumours that Big Ian also has one. I used to work with a Ballymena United fan who had one. Unfortunately he got a strip search before a flight to Tenerife in the late 70s. Funny thing the flight was delayed and the police didn't find his block of black in his pocket, so he spent the delay recovering from his ordeal smoking hash.

If you have held both then as I've stated you can claim to be Irish and British. If you just hold British then I can't see how you can claim, as a nationailty, to be Irish just because you were born there. Frankly, I'm surprised given your hostile comments about the ROI etc. and the tricolour that you'd want to part with the 53 quid it takes to get one though. You don't even get the strip search anymore. :D

"OK: I know how sad it makes you feel that I've rejected the lottery ticket of life. Tell you what, despite never having a British passport, I'm told I can still get one. Ask one of your Donegal mates that maybe for performing a blow job on me, they can have mine. That really is as much as it's worth" I'm not sad at all. You are what you are. Not for me to tell other people what they identify as. Maybe a little bit of pity for you that you seem to be filled up with contempt and bitterness about other people's identity - but certainly not sad! Back to the rugby scenario a second. A player from Northern Ireland, holding a British Passport, of Unionist inclination - should he not be playing for Ireland on account of the fact that, in your eyes, he's not Irish?Thanks for the pitty, mate! :rolleyes: As for rugger, given that I have already stated that the Irish rugby team should play under two flags and two anthems, what do you think?

livehead1

28/10/2006, 10:48 AM

For your information, Neil Lennon wouldn't get into the present NI team. When Lawrie Sanchez took over, he clearly stated that he was concentrating on his younger players, at the expense of older players*. Two similarly-talented midfielders with more caps than NL, who fell foul of that policy, were Michael Hughes (b. 1973) and Steve Lomas (b.1974). Lennon was born in 1971.

Plus NL has said that his career has benefited by being able to concentrate solely on Celtic.

Plus the fact that NL's place in the team was taken by Damien Johnson (now 28), who I think may be Catholic. And when Johnson is not available, his deputy is Sammy Clingan, a 22 year old from Republican West Belfast. (Presumably neither of these is "in his right mind", by your reckoning)

You try and put spin on everything you say, are you a journalist? why don't you find a forum to discuss your views on northern irish football. Every topic you discuss invariably involves you talking about it.

Tell me if neil lennon, captain of celtic, cannot get in the side, why can keith gillespie, an aging journeyman at sheffield united?

Now lets talk about sammy clingan. He can't help where he was born "republican west belfast". Sammy Clingan is a protestant. Now this doesn't bother me, but why try and put a slant on it, making it appear he is something that he isn't? I'll provide proof if you so wish.

Andyh

28/10/2006, 10:54 AM

Not Brazil

28/10/2006, 11:01 AM

Tell me if neil lennon, captain of celtic, cannot get in the side, why can keith gillespie, an aging journeyman at sheffield united?

Now lets talk about sammy clingan. He can't help where he was born "republican west belfast". Sammy Clingan is a protestant. Now this doesn't bother me, but why try and put a slant on it, making it appear he is something that he isn't? I'll provide proof if you so wish.

Gillespie is a winger, Lennon a midfielder. Our midfield is just grand right now.

What exactly has Sammy Clinghan's religious beliefs (if he has any?) got to do with anything?

Is the thread about religion, or people's identity - particularly players expressing their identity by virtue of representing the FAI or IFA?

Would you have any proof of what Sammy identifies as, as opposed to what Church/Chapel he may or may not attend?

Andyh

28/10/2006, 11:03 AM

You try and put spin on everything you say, are you a journalist? why don't you find a forum to discuss your views on northern irish football. Every topic you discuss invariably involves you talking about it.

Tell me if neil lennon, captain of celtic, cannot get in the side, why can keith gillespie, an aging journeyman at sheffield united?

Now lets talk about sammy clingan. He can't help where he was born "republican west belfast". Sammy Clingan is a protestant. Now this doesn't bother me, but why try and put a slant on it, making it appear he is something that he isn't? I'll provide proof if you so wish.

I think you might be a little embarrassed on this one. I witnessed Sammy crossing himself when coming on for the second half against Iceland (surely not!!, was he not physically removed from the pitch by all those bigots at Windsor?) But maybe Protestants do that now, I haven't been to church in a number of years, bloody Church of Ireland, they're Catholics in all but name:rolleyes:

As for Lennon, he's at least 4 years older than Gillespie, and probably wouldn't be playing international football now no matter what country he came from. Also I would agree that Lennon made better use of his (limited) footballing talents, but Gillespie is a much more naturally gifted player.

Not Brazil

28/10/2006, 11:29 AM

lopez,

"Firstly: The vote was taken seperately, which undermines its democratic validity. When one vote is taken to include the whole of Ireland, I'll consider the matter 'settled."

The GFA was endorsed by the overwhelming majority of those who voted on it on the island of Ireland. The GFA settled the constitutional question of Northern Ireland. One of the primary reasons why I voted for it.

"Secondly, like you, providing there are no lies or libel, I'm entitled to my views and the aspiration of an all-Ireland state and that Britain should leave is not something confined to the IRA Army council."

Of course you are - I have not once stated that you are not entitled to your views. Likewise, I am entitled to my views.

"The point I'm making is that Ireland do not issue British passports, therefore it's not Ireland that can decide on whether anyone in Ireland can get a British passport."

I do not believe that in the event of a "New Ireland" being created, that those in that "New Ireland" would be denied British citizenship/passport by the British Government.

In fact, i believe that would be a fundamental facet under an agreed, "New Ireland".

"The British government has already washed its hands of unionists born in the three Ulster counties within the Republic"

Shame on them. Don't be surprised to see that position changed.;)

"I used to work with a Ballymena United fan who had one."

And how did he/she identify?

"If you have held both then as I've stated you can claim to be Irish and British. If you just hold British then I can't see how you can claim, as a nationailty, to be Irish just because you were born there."

I have held both. My Irishness is my birthright. Unlike you, I was born in Ireland, of Irish parents. I am also British. How many times do you need me to repeat what I am?:rolleyes:

"Frankly, I'm surprised given your hostile comments about the ROI etc. and the tricolour"

I don't think I was particularly "hostile" about the Tricolor - I stated that it is a flag that does not represent me in any shape or form, and never will.

Your hostility towards Irishmen (born and bred) like myself, The Union Flag, Britain, The United Kingdom etc is clearly on a different level.

"As for rugger, given that I have already stated that the Irish rugby team should play under two flags and two anthems, what do you think?"

Two seperate teams maybe?

Straight question.

Were Trevor Ringland and Tyrone Howe not fit to wear an Ireland shirt, because, in your myopic opinion, they are not Irish?

Merc67

28/10/2006, 11:31 AM

As for Lennon, he's at least 4 years older than Gillespie, and probably wouldn't be playing international football now no matter what country he came from. .

and here's me thinking i'd stayed out of this for good:)

Neil Lennon is playing well in the Champions League mate, but he wouldnt get in the 'wee' team? wise up, as they say in your neck of the woods:D

as for Liz O'Donnell, she's incredibly false isnt she. what a load of codswallop. seems 'modern' ireland forbids any memories to exist. she truly is a c*nt.

Not Brazil

28/10/2006, 11:31 AM

Just because we don't subscribe to the 1916 blood sacrifice type of Irishness, or the Catholic Irish, lets toil in the fields all day "dream" espoused by De Valera etc - Doesn't make us any less Irish.

;) :cool:

Not Brazil

28/10/2006, 11:34 AM

I think you might be a little embarrassed on this one.

I think livewire might be a little red faced too - but let him/her produce the "proof":rolleyes:

Merc67

28/10/2006, 11:38 AM

I have held both. My Irishness is my birthright. Unlike you, I was born in Ireland, of Irish parents. I am also British. How many times do you need me to repeat what I am?:rolleyes:

you're a brit IN Ireland. simple as. you're wrong, but of course you're entitled to be wrong:)
when the brits came here they came to destroy all vestige of culture,language and dignity. how can you be the poacher and gamekeeper. its a ****ing joke - just cos you claim you are in your own head doesn't prove anything.

Here:

I don't think I was particularly "hostile" about the Tricolor - I stated that it is a flag that does not represent me in any shape or form, and never will.

you say that the flag doesnt represent you in any way, when clearly the orange bit does! so once again, you've got an opinion out of touch with the facts, because you want to.

you just WANT to claim an Irish/British identity to maintain the british superiority over us.

as for the Polish/Irish debate, i dont think there has been a Polish invasion...:)

Not Brazil

28/10/2006, 11:39 AM

as for Liz O'Donnell, she's incredibly false isnt she. what a load of codswallop. seems 'modern' ireland forbids any memories to exist. she truly is a c*nt.

Was she not espousing the view that more "memories" should be allowed to infiltrate the myopic worldview of some, somewhat extreme, "nationalists".;)

How exactly is she "truly a c*nt"? Is that your considered response to anyone who offers a different viewpoint to mono cultural nationalist/republican thinking in Ireland?:eek:

Andyh

28/10/2006, 11:39 AM

Merc67

28/10/2006, 11:44 AM

I really don't understand why so many people on this board believe you can't be British/ a UK citizen and Irish as well. Do you believe therefore that no-one was truly Irish until post 1921? And are the the people in Scotland not truly Scottish? and the same for the Welsh.

Just because we don't subscribe to the 1916 blood sacrifice type of Irishness, or the Catholic Irish, lets toil in the fields all day "dream" espoused by De Valera etc - Doesn't make us any less Irish.

because you can't. it's only something Brits would claim! it's patronising and insulting to Irish people. it's more than just 'citizenship' we're talking about too, and almost exclusively a debate about northern individuals.

they spend all their ****ing time not wanting to be irish and then claim they are to illustrate how we're part of a ****ing union. 'irish' people are not - the northern state (gerrymandered) is and the brits within it are. NOT Irish people.
scotland and wales are not divided lands with the history of ireland and the WHOLE of both lands are within britain. Ireland is not.
you can be 'northern irish and British' if you want. But not IRISH and British.

and f**k off with you're typical anti-1916 claptrap about the 'blood sacrifice' quote. funny how the west brits always come out with the same one line from 1916:rolleyes: is that to ingratiate yourself with the new me fein Irish who may harbour romantic ideals of the period but balk at any self harm?

and I have yet to meet anybody who is a fan of De Valera's 'Ireland' - have you? or is it just another part of your attempt to paint 'irish' in a negative way?

Merc67

28/10/2006, 11:49 AM

Was she not espousing the view that more "memories" should be allowed to infiltrate the myopic worldview of some, somewhat extreme, "nationalists".;)

How exactly is she "truly a c*nt"? Is that your considered response to anyone who offers a different viewpoint to mono cultural nationalist/republican thinking in Ireland?::

not a considered response - her comments dont deserve one:)

memories? like the ruination of a culture? the murder of a language? the bigotry? the dividing of the land? the racism? the wonderful elitism? i'm sure she enjoys all of the above...

it's poxy 'im modern, clear minded, un shackled irish individual, proud to deal with the horror of the past with a smile on my face' bull****. of course, she's in an ivory tower as she dictates her speech:rolleyes:

im not mono cultural, nowhere near it, im not even ireland for the irish, but im not in favour of 'celebrating' the british influence in this divided land. perhaps in a couple of generations when they've finally gone and the scars are not so vivid.

Andyh

28/10/2006, 11:50 AM

you're a brit IN Ireland. simple as. you're wrong, but of course you're entitled to be wrong:)
when the brits came here they came to destroy all vestige of culture,language and dignity. how can you be the poacher and gamekeeper. its a ****ing joke - just cos you claim you are in your own head doesn't prove anything.

Here:

you say that the flag doesnt represent you in any way, when clearly the orange bit does! so once again, you've got an opinion out of touch with the facts, because you want to.

you just WANT to claim an Irish/British identity to maintain the british superiority over us.

as for the Polish/Irish debate, i dont think there has been a Polish invasion...:)

Its funny how we get accused of being fascist, but yet you are TELLING us what does and doesn't represent us. As for the brit in Ireland comment, how is this true?? I have a surname shared by many other people in Ireland, and was born and raised in a part of Ireland to Irish parents. Mr Hume and Mr Adams clearly have an English background somewhere along the line, are they also Brits in Ireland. What about Mr McGuinness? he has the English version unlike Mr Maginnis, who has the Gaelic spelling - surely not another Brit in Ireland?

Also if the orange in the tricolour represents us, then surely the "Butcher's Apron" represents all of you, as it contains the red saltire cross of St Patrick's Flag. :rolleyes:

Merc67

28/10/2006, 11:54 AM

Its funny how we get accused of being fascist, but yet you are TELLING us what does and doesn't represent us. As for the brit in Ireland comment, how is this true?? I have a surname shared by many other people in Ireland, and was born and raised in a part of Ireland to Irish parents. Mr Hume and Mr Adams clearly have an English background somewhere along the line, are they also Brits in Ireland. What about Mr McGuinness? he has the English version unlike Mr Maginnis, who has the Gaelic spelling - surely not another Brit in Ireland?

Also if the orange in the tricolour represents us, then surely the "Butcher's Apron" represents all of you, as it contains the red saltire cross of St Patrick's Flag. :rolleyes:

as the folk born in england with Irish passports will tell you, 'Irishness' is more than where you were born.

the union flag evolves, as i have said on this thread before. the st patrick's cross should be removed by now. it wasnt always there, and should not still be.

Merc67

28/10/2006, 11:55 AM

then surely the "Butcher's Apron" represents all of you, as it contains the red saltire cross of St Patrick's Flag. :rolleyes:

by the by, doesnt the continuing existence of the St Patrick's cross show just how the brits dont get us at all, that and their use of the ****ing 'mainland' when theyre in dublin. it's patronising **** like this that you'd probably love....

Not Brazil

28/10/2006, 11:57 AM

Merc,

"you're a brit IN Ireland. simple as"

I'm British, of Ireland. Born and bred.

"when the brits came here"

I didn't "come" here. I have always been here, and always will be here. I was born here, as were my Irish parents, Irish grandparents, Irish great grandparents, Irish great great grandparents and Irish great great great grandparents before me.

This is 2006.

"you say that the flag doesnt represent you in any way, when clearly the orange bit does! so once again, you've got an opinion out of touch with the facts, because you want to."

I have lived through 30 odd years of sustained violence, perpetrated by those who claim to uphold the noble aspiration of the Tricolor, against the culture, tradition and heritage supposedly represented by the "orange bit".

The flag will never have my allegiance. Of course, when I be in Dublin for sporting events, I respect it - but it ain't my flag.

"you just WANT to claim an Irish/British identity to maintain the british superiority over us."

Not true - just a poor attempt to run away from a fact that you find hard to deal with.

Is it not the British/Irish you wish to be united with?:eek:

I'm all for an "Island Of Equals".

I feel in no way superior, or inferior, to you.

Speak soon - Off to watch my favourites. Badly need the three points today.

Maybe Donegal Celtic will do us a big favour and hump the Glens. It's a funny old game.

Andyh

28/10/2006, 12:02 PM

because you can't. it's only something Brits would claim! it's patronising and insulting to Irish people. it's more than just 'citizenship' we're talking about too, and almost exclusively a debate about northern individuals.

they spend all their ****ing time not wanting to be irish and then claim they are to illustrate how we're part of a ****ing union. 'irish' people are not - the northern state (gerrymandered) is and the brits within it are. NOT Irish people.
scotland and wales are not divided lands with the history of ireland and the WHOLE of both lands are within britain. Ireland is not.
you can be 'northern irish and British' if you want. But not IRISH and British.

and f**k off with you're typical anti-1916 claptrap about the 'blood sacrifice' quote. funny how the west brits always come out with the same one line from 1916:rolleyes: is that to ingratiate yourself with the new me fein Irish who may harbour romantic ideals of the period but balk at any self harm?

and I have yet to meet anybody who is a fan of De Valera's 'Ireland' - have you? or is it just another part of your attempt to paint 'irish' in a negative way?

Who exactly are the 'Brits' to which you continually refer? Just the English? or people from all four nations? just curious....

Also IF Ireland was ever to be united peacefully, people like you would have to face much upheavel also. You would have to realise that not all Irish men and women recognise the 1916 rising as such a grand and noble event. There were Irish men laying down their lives literally by the thousand in the battlefields of Europe - but sure they were obviously brits so that didn't matter.

No, I'm sure not everyone was not a fan of De Valera's Ireland. But neither was everyone here a fan of Craig's Northern Ireland. Yet you seem to be happy to continually cast Northern Ireland in a negative way because of him and others.

Merc67

28/10/2006, 12:04 PM

Merc,

I'm British, of Ireland. Born and bred.

this is the basic issue, nobody in the world would agree you can be irish and british. it's like claiming to be proud of the 'father' who raped your mother and conceived you.

"when the brits came here"

I didn't "come" here. I have always been here, and always will be here. I was born here, as were my Irish parents, Irish grandparents, Irish great grandparents, Irish great great grandparents and Irish great great great grandparents before me.

they 'came' here and did nothing to contribute to 'Irish'ness at any stage. it was, and will forever be, an unwelcome and illegal contibution.

"you say that the flag doesnt represent you in any way, when clearly the orange bit does! so once again, you've got an opinion out of touch with the facts, because you want to."

I have lived through 30 odd years of sustained violence, perpetrated by those who claim to uphold the noble aspiration of the Tricolor, against the culture, tradition and heritage supposedly represented by the "orange bit".

yes, violence against fellow 'Irish' for no reason, eh:) as explained above, the British influence was the cause for this. btw - whats your 'culture?' alster skawts and scone? :D

"you just WANT to claim an Irish/British identity to maintain the british superiority over us."

Not true - just a poor attempt to run away from a fact that you find hard to deal with.
Is it not the British/Irish you wish to be united with?:eek:
I'm all for an "Island Of Equals".

it's not a 'fact'. its a bizarre opinion that not many would agree with. the 'british' in ireland are, and will, always be outsiders. especially if you claim to be irish too. because it is an isult to any irishman tobe called british, as you would probably know if you ever went on holiday with someone from Dublin!

Merc67

28/10/2006, 12:07 PM

You would have to realise that not all Irish men and women recognise the 1916 rising as such a grand and noble event. There were Irish men laying down their lives literally by the thousand in the battlefields of Europe - but sure they were obviously brits so that didn't matter.

oh right. 'defending' small nations! :eek: :D as their own were murdered at home. how noble....:rolleyes:

Andyh

28/10/2006, 12:07 PM

as the folk born in england with Irish passports will tell you, 'Irishness' is more than where you were born.

the union flag evolves, as i have said on this thread before. the st patrick's cross should be removed by now. it wasnt always there, and should not still be.

Well if the folk born in England told me that, I would reply: "you're English of Irish ancestry - not like me who is 100% Irish, born and bred in county Antrim for generations, and before that in counties Monaghan and Leitrim."

I think someone needs to help you brush that chip off your shoulder, oh the terrible brits, they eat children you know. Just out of interest, were you born in England?

Merc67

28/10/2006, 12:11 PM

Well if the folk born in England told me that, I would reply: "you're English of Irish ancestry - not like me who is 100% Irish, born and bred in county Antrim for generations, and before that in counties Monaghan and Leitrim."

I think someone needs to help you brush that chip off your shoulder, oh the terrible brits, they eat children you know. Just out of interest, were you born in England?

but you see, they have parents or grandparents. from Ireland. you have those from the north, which in your 'culture' and tradition' was never really 'Ireland' as we know it. it's an outpost of britishness that could be on any land.

i dont hold any issues with modern, living, brits really, lots of friends there, visit often, went to uni in Leeds. enjoy a lot of their culture, but i have major issues with the past and their present opinion of us, their racism.
and reconciling that with someone wanting to be irish and british dont wash.

i'm from Dublin.

Andyh

28/10/2006, 12:11 PM

oh right. 'defending' small nations! :eek: :D as their own were murdered at home. how noble....:rolleyes:

'Shall not their blood seal a new bond of brotherhood among Irishmen, and cry out in judgement against those who should in future seek to stir up fresh the old hatreds an old divisions that have been the curse of Ireland for centuries?'.

Andyh

28/10/2006, 12:16 PM

but you see, they have parents or grandparents. from Ireland. you have those from the north, which in your 'culture' and tradition' was never really 'Ireland' as we know it. it's an outpost of britishness that could be on any land.

i dont hold any issues with modern, living, brits really, lots of friends there, visit often, went to uni in Leeds. enjoy a lot of their culture, but i have major issues with the past and their present opinion of us, their racism.
and reconciling that with someone wanting to be irish and british dont wash.

i'm from Dublin.

Its Ireland Jim, but not as we know it.:rolleyes:

Dear oh dear, my paternal grandfather was from Clones, County Monaghan, in your brit free magical kingdom of Ireland, last time i checked. His father was from Mohill, County Leitrim - not even an ulsterman, shock horror. But sure for the pure fact he was a protestant, he must be a Brit, so i guess i don't realy belong here. I'll just go and pack my bags now.....

EalingGreen

28/10/2006, 1:06 PM

and here's me thinking i'd stayed out of this for good:)

Neil Lennon is playing well in the Champions League mate, but he wouldnt get in the 'wee' team? wise up, as they say in your neck of the woods:D

as for Liz O'Donnell, she's incredibly false isnt she. what a load of codswallop. seems 'modern' ireland forbids any memories to exist. she truly is a c*nt.

Perhaps you should stay out of this - at least until you're a wee bit better informed.

For the record, Sanchez made it crystal clear when he took over, that he was going to give youth its chance. This meant that two of his most talented and experienced central midfielders, Lomas & Hughes, were excluded. It would also most likely have meant the exclusion of Lennon (had he been available), since
he is older than the pair of them.
Their places in midfield have been taken by the excellent Steve Davis (21 y.o.) and Damien Johnson (27 y.o.), with Sammy Clingan (22 y.o.) as cover.
Keith Gillespie is an entirely different case. First, he is a right winger (who can occasionally cover at right back). Second, Sanchez didn't actually pick Keef for his first few games, but Gillespie turned him round by applying himself diligently. Third, he has showed in recent NI games some of the talent that made him part of the Golden Generation at MUFC, or a star of Newcastle United's Champions League exploits. Fourth, he has been playing regularly recently for an English Premiership side.
Finally, he is 31, whereas Lennon is 35.

That is why Lennon would not get selected by Sanchez, whereas Keith Gillespie does.

P.S. I don't know anything about Liz O'Donnell, so I won't comment on her, other than to say that following your charming comment on her (above), my guess is that she can't be all bad...;)

EalingGreen

28/10/2006, 1:15 PM

looks like a seemingly plausible thread has once again been dragged down by the OWC boys who want to lecture us uninformed.

Pardon me, as an NI-born fan of the NI football team, for daring to have an opinion on the topic of Ni-born footballers playing for the NI football team or the ROI football team: how very presumptious of me!:confused:

wake up. cop on. you cannot be british and irish - end of discussion.

Sorry, what was that bit about "lecturing"? :eek:

EDIT: if you meet the criteria of both 1 and 2 then you may call yourself both irish and british

Ah, I get it now. If I am to determine what I am to think and feel, I must first pass a test devised by you. Thanks for that - I'll start studying straight away, if you'll just send me the reading list and syllabus.

I've just realised you're from Galway; I don't suppose I'll ever pass the test - wrong tribe! ;)

EalingGreen

28/10/2006, 1:29 PM

I knew this thread was going to end up like this.

Its a pity that Irish fans are taking the bait from our 'no surrender' comrades.

These guys spend their lives talking about politics and the other usual sh*t over on their own site, leave them to it.

Frankly, it is impossible to address a topic like this without considering the political, constitutional and nationality aspects of it.

It seems to me that your problem is that you disagree with my point of view, therefore you don't feel I have the right to express it.

It would be a pretty poor website if only one "party line" were allowed; one of the attractions of this site for me is that I have learned a great deal about what others think. Some of this I have disagreed with, but other posts have caused me to revise my views.

On which point, you might desist from associating Not Brazil and myself etc with the "no surrender" crowd. There is a thread on this very topic on OWC, where I have made my contempt for the NS ****s abundantly clear - as have the 90% + of respondants who have voted in the associated Poll.

Merc67

28/10/2006, 1:33 PM

'Shall not their blood seal a new bond of brotherhood among Irishmen, and cry out in judgement against those who should in future seek to stir up fresh the old hatreds an old divisions that have been the curse of Ireland for centuries?'.

no.
they should have fought for ireland. shame on them.
who said this? a brit.

crc

28/10/2006, 1:35 PM

Merc67,

earlier in the thread you told me that you weren't a ranting poster, but I think that your display subsequently disproves that.

How dare you tell anyone else who they are? If I told you that you were actually Croatian, you would probably say that you weren't. I could reiterate that you were a Croatian several hundred times, but it would not change the fact that you consider yourself to be Irish and not Croatian. Similarly, if Not Brazil, or Ealing Green or Andyh tell you that they are Irish AND British then neither you, nor I, nor anyone else can tell them that they aren't.

I am also troubled that your definition of Irishness has to include so many refernces to occupation and 'British' malevolance. I don't deny that these things happened, nor do I think they were good things, but they happenned. There's not a lot we can do about the past, so get over it and think about what you can do in the future.

If I can't appeal to your reasonable side (and on the evidence, I'm not entirely sure you have one), then let me appeal to your purely selfish side:

DO YOU WANT A UNITED-IRELAND?

IF NO - well that's fine. I would accept (though not agree) with this position. If this is the case you should advocate that the Dublin government remove all references to aspiring for a united Ireland. In particular, they should change the name of the State to demonstrate that the United-Ireland goal is dead. The Republic of Ireland international football team should unambiguously be called the Republic of Ireland and perhaps the FAI should become the FARoI. We would all recognise partition, and stop appropriating the geographic terms belonging to 'Ireland' for one side or the other.

IF YES - honestly, what is the best way to achieve it. Let's be frank and realistic. We've tried hoping that the statelet would simply fail because it was too small. That didn't work. I doubt this strategy would work even if you re-partitioned NI so that, for example, Derry, Tyrone and Fermanagh became part of the Republic; we've seen the 'Brits' aptitude for holding on the micro-states in the past (Gibraltar, Malvinas, Channel Island).
We've tried unilaterally declaring that the territory of NI actually belonged to the Republic - that strategy failed miserably aswell. Most abhorently, some Irishmen even tried to bomb and shoot the people of the north-east into submission. This was a catastrophic failure. That 'campaign' may have been based on a mistaken belief that the English ( + the Scots and Welsh)* were the only ones holding up a united Ireland, but its end result was to further alienate about one million people, and eroded almost to the point of no return any feeling of common cause amongst people on this island. And the 'campaign' served as further proof, if any were needed, that a united-Ireland achieved by force would probably not be a united-Ireland worth living in. This isn't your fault or my fault, or even Not Brazil's fault, its just the reality.
Mutual trust has been badly damaged over the last half-century, it will take a lot longer to rebuilt this trust than it took to destroy, and arguably will not start in earnest until people like you realise that it needs to start (on both / all sides)

In the 19th and early 20th Century, nation-building began by first establishing the state. This is no longer the case. Cavour said: "Now that Italy is made, we must make the Italians", well I think that in order for a United-Ireland to happen, we must first make Irishmen, and then we will be able to make Ireland.

Maybe we will never achieve a United-Ireland. That would be unfortunate in my opinion, but any strategy that does not include mutual trust is doomed to failure. I don't know how we will achieve a united-Ireland, but I sure as hell know how we will not achieve it!

And if you answered NO, well its still not a good idea to antagonise your neighbours. They will always be there for as long as you live (and longer)

I appeal to you to consider what I have just written in a calm and thoughtful manner. At the very least consider what it would be like if you were in the other position.

* E,S & W - for clarity.
EDIT: Spelling

Merc67

28/10/2006, 1:36 PM

For the record, Sanchez made it crystal clear when he took over, that he was going to give youth its chance. This meant that two of his most talented and experienced central midfielders, Lomas & Hughes, were excluded. It would also most likely have meant the exclusion of Lennon (had he been available), since he is older than the pair of them. (and better

as i said, if he wanted to be there he'd be there, the reason he easily dropped lomas and hughes is they're average and over it, lenny is not.
the only reason the mexican is getting away with leaving people out is cos theyre doing ok. if they werent he'd call ppl back.

Merc67

28/10/2006, 1:45 PM

Merc67,

earlier in the thread you told me that you weren't a ranting poster, but I think that your display subsequently disproves that.

some bull cant be left unmentioned. ill try to refrain in future:)

How dare you tell anyone else who they are?

i can tell you as an Irishman that no Irishman can also be British. that, my friend is a fact. they can try, claim and spout all they want, but it is a misguided claim and a false identity. they can be britons living in ireland. northern irish and british. but not irish and british. it doesnt work.

its all well and good being open minded, fair, yadda yadda, which i mostly am, but this is ********.
i am insulted that someone who is british can also claim to be the smae as i am. THEY are telling me what i am! im telling them what they are not.

DO YOU WANT A UNITED-IRELAND?
whether i do or not, having this 'identity exist is bull. im sorry you typed the rest. i have no will to cave into ******** like this.
the statelet has clearly failed.
irishmen did not try to bomb and shoot the people into submission (your bias)

That 'campaign' may have been based on a mistaken belief that the English ( + the Scots and Welsh)* were the only ones holding up a united Ireland, but its end result was to further alienate about one million people. - no it was 'Brits who thought they owned a part of ireland.
[/QUOTE]

EalingGreen

28/10/2006, 1:47 PM

You try and put spin on everything you say, are you a journalist? why don't you find a forum to discuss your views on northern irish football. Every topic you discuss invariably involves you talking about it.

This topic is about Northern Irish footballers and whether they should be allowed to play for the ROI or not. How on earth can anyone debate the topic without including "northern irish football"? Bizarre.

Tell me if neil lennon, captain of celtic, cannot get in the side, why can keith gillespie, an aging journeyman at sheffield united?

I've already addressed this in two other posts. If you consider these don't stand up, please tell me how.

Now lets talk about sammy clingan. He can't help where he was born "republican west belfast". Sammy Clingan is a protestant. Now this doesn't bother me, but why try and put a slant on it, making it appear he is something that he isn't? I'll provide proof if you so wish.

Some other posters seemed to think that the NL case showed how it was impossible for people from a Nationalist/Catholic background to represent NI. I and others pointed out that his place is being taken by Damien Johnson (RC) and Sammy Clingan, from Republican West Belfast. I did not say that Sammy was RC, since I don't know. I would be interested in your proof that he is not. AndyH would be interested as well, I would guess! (And btw, Chris Baird, a former GAA player from Rasharkin, has also filled in in midfield recently)

One more thought occurs, Livehead. If I post on topics about which I have no knowledge, I'm open to get slated for that. Here, I get slated for posting on a topic about which I can claim to know something. :eek:

Is there some qualification I should hold before I am allowed even to join this Board. A "Nationality Test", perhaps? ;)

Dodge

28/10/2006, 2:03 PM

So are any of these players any use?

Merc67

28/10/2006, 2:05 PM

So are any of these players any use?

i'm sorry, is this a thread about football now!!:eek:

:D

gibbo and kane are ok, won't really know for a few years tho...

EalingGreen

28/10/2006, 2:07 PM

the 'british' in ireland are, and will, always be outsiders.

"The Muslims in England are, and will, always be outsiders"

"The Jews in Germany are, and will, always be outsiders"

"The Culchies in Dublin are, and will, always be outsiders"

"The Poles in Cork are, and will, always be outsiders"

"And the Catholics in Northern Ireland are, and will, always be outsiders, which is why they will never play football for Northern Ireland"

Discuss.

[Next Week, a debate on Ethnic Cleansing]

Merc67

28/10/2006, 2:13 PM

"The Muslims in England are, and will, always be outsiders"

"The Jews in Germany are, and will, always be outsiders"

"The Culchies in Dublin are, and will, always be outsiders"

"The Poles in Cork are, and will, always be outsiders"

"And the Catholics in Northern Ireland are, and will, always be outsiders, which is why they will never play football for Northern Ireland"

Discuss.

[Next Week, a debate on Ethnic Cleansing]

please don't extrapolate concepts by such facetious methods. until the territorial claim britain holds here is gone, it will remain thus.
i dont think brits in dublin have anything to worry about, i mean people who think they are brits AND Irish...
but then you knew that and just wanted to pull out the one line you thought gave you cause to have a go:rolleyes:
and if you want to have a debate on ethnic cleansing, its funny cos those people who want to be irish now were the ones originially attempting to cleanse this land of them... but sure, let's not mention that eh. eyes forward!
your point about the catholics tho is fairly spot on even though you didnt intend it so. if they have to stand for another country's n.anthem and flag then its clear to see...

EalingGreen

28/10/2006, 2:32 PM

as i said, if he wanted to be there he'd be there, the reason he easily dropped lomas and hughes is they're average and over it, lenny is not.
the only reason the mexican is getting away with leaving people out is cos theyre doing ok. if they werent he'd call ppl back.

Now you really are looking silly. I'm no huge fan of Lomas either way, but Michael Hughes was a magificent player for NI, winning 73 caps down the years, and unquestionably was our best outfield player during the dreadful times.
During the years when NL and MH were together in the team, every observer would tell you that Michael invariably played above himself, whereas Neil often played below his club form. This was not anything to do with their respective effort, just one of those things that happens with international teams.
When Lawrie took over, MH was playing in the English Premiership, whereas NL was in the Scottish Premiership. He is also two years younger than NL.

And who is this "mexican", btw? Or do you mean Lawrie Sanchez - born in England, of an Ecuadorean father and Belfast mother?

And what Nationality does that make him? ;)

EalingGreen

28/10/2006, 2:38 PM

i can tell you as an Irishman that no Irishman can also be British. that, my friend is a fact.

No, Merc67, that is an opinion. And this Irishman holds a different opinion.

However, my Passport states that I am a citizen* of the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". That, my friend, is a fact. :D

(* - They no longer say "subject", you'll be surprised to know! ;) )

Merc67

28/10/2006, 2:45 PM

When Lawrie took over, MH was playing in the English Premiership, whereas NL was in the Scottish Premiership. He is also two years younger than NL.

And who is this "mexican", btw? Or do you mean Lawrie Sanchez - born in England, of an Ecuadorean father and Belfast mother?

And what Nationality does that make him? ;)now your looking stupid. are we talking about now - or when michael hughes was decent?
i thank you.

as for the mexican, its a nickname a fried of mine from up north has for Lawrie:)

EalingGreen

28/10/2006, 2:47 PM

your point about the catholics tho is fairly spot on even though you didnt intend it so. if they have to stand for another country's n.anthem and flag then its clear to see...

So not only am I not Irish, but those players such as Chris Baird, Damien Johnson, Sammy Clingan etc who stand for "another country's n.anthem and flag" presumably aren't Catholic/Nationalist/Irish*?

Fair enough, you've put me in my place; why don't you put them straight, as well? That's when you've finished telling Willie John McBride who and what he is...:eek:

(* - Delete as applicable)

Merc67

28/10/2006, 2:48 PM

No, Merc67, that is an opinion. And this Irishman holds a different opinion.

However, my Passport states that I am a citizen* of the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". That, my friend, is a fact. :D

(* - They no longer say "subject", you'll be surprised to know! ;) )

exactly - it doesnt say youre 'Irish'! jaysus, when will ye get it.
your a 'citizen' of the northen state, that never has or never will claim to be irish. what youre doing is trying to paint Irish people as british citizens, something which perpetuates the racism and superiority of cocky englsih ****ers, who are essentially the true brits. cmon now, we all know london rules the 'union'.
people like you and the stupid belief of the brits that irish people want to be part of their little clique (those who say 'mainland' when theyr in dublin) really do my tits in

Merc67

28/10/2006, 2:51 PM

So not only am I not Irish, but those players such as Chris Baird, Damien Johnson, Sammy Clingan etc who stand for "another country's n.anthem and flag" presumably aren't Catholic/Nationalist/Irish*?

Fair enough, you've put me in my place; why don't you put them straight, as well? That's when you've finished telling Willie John McBride who and what he is...:eek:

(* - Delete as applicable)

note, i never mentioned religion once.

they are obviously happy to be 'northern irish' and tagged as such. as was Lenny at one stage, clearly half hearted because he couldnt play for his true national team and as a career move. im sure their real national identity will be arrived at not by looking at the colour of their shirt...