Northern players declaring for the Republic [Archive] - Page 2

lopez

26/10/2006, 2:13 PM

I want the IFA to be more rigourous in ensuring that those who represent us an underage level are commited to persuing their future international career with Northern Ireland - no more grooming for another Association.Speak to FIFA - while you're getting them to stop any NI players opting for Ireland. It was them that changed the rules from your suggestion to whatever it is this week a few years back.

...Invariably, it is only youngsters from a Nationalist/Catholic background who are switching. As I said, if this is entirly from free will, then we should respect that. But if there should be an element of "tapping up" by the FAI, the effect down the road will be to characterise the ROI as the "Catholic/Nationalist" team in Ireland, with NI being the "Protestant/Unionist" team. This must not be allowed to happen. (It also raises the intersting point that if they are only approaching Catholic youths, then the FAI is discriminating against certain other young Irishmen, on sectarian grounds, by not offering them the opportunity to play for "Ireland")
You answered the question here yourself. On the one hand we have the accusation of the FAI 'tapping up' (or as you said on OWC 'inducements' which suggests bungs). On the other, only nationalists are playing for the Republic. Many NI fans have to take their head out of the ar*es and come to terms with the fact that just as Northern based Irish fans don't get 'inducements' (e.g. free tickets in the manner of certain Latin American clubs) to see their country play, some footballers want to play for their country not a regional XI of a country they don't consider their own.

Personally, I'd thoroughly encourage the FAI to come out and say 'anyone who can get an Irish passport - black, white, prod, papist - will be eleigible to play for us'. Knock this stupid 'sectarian' accusation on the head, even if it risks p*ssing off a lot of our Northern :rolleyes: 'friends.'

wasnt alan kernaghan born in norn iron, or am i completely wrong?He wasn't. But he was Protestant. I think the FAI at the time forgot to ask his religion.

youngirish

26/10/2006, 2:15 PM

Re your first Para, even if the IFA could distinguish political affiliations amongst young teenagerson Nationalist/Unionist lines, how could they distinguish between those young Nationalists who are presently very happy to play for the full NI team, and those who would prefer to play for the ROI?

They couldn't which is the point I made. So are you agreeing with me that its nonsense to suggest on a screening process because it would lead to abuses due to political/religious affiliations, or disagreeing?

I was never suggesting that the IFA should become a feeder organisation for the FAI and nor would it ever amount to that unless this problem starts happening on a far larger scale than currently but compensation is better than other suggestions of locking 14-15 year old kids in NI to their national team for life which FIFA definitely wouldn't agree to. It's also better than the current situation. I don't see a problem if a kid wants to switch to the ROI team from the NI setup, he should have the same options open to him as all other kids playing international football throughout the world (I think currently any player can change international teams if they haven't received a senior cap). Surely if the argument is that the IFA devoted it's resources to the development of these players then compensation can address that complaint. Forcing them to remain NI players is not an alternative option.

Jamjar

26/10/2006, 2:27 PM

So we must therefore conclude that all the change and progress to which so many are referring, inc. NL himself, are in some way unimportant, even illusionary?

;)
Why must we conclude that ? My attitude obviously has more to do with my age, I remember Billy Binghams era in charge, an era of blatant sectarianism (chants etc.), and so am sceptical of this huge shift, that is not to say it is not happening of course.
I personally don't give a flying f�ck who plays for NI.

By the way, I don't know who Sammy Clingan is, but I doubt with a name like that, that he is a catholic/nationalist, but again, maybe I'm wrong.

Not Brazil

26/10/2006, 2:34 PM

"It would definitely be the defining criteria. What other criteria would you suggest then? What screening process can you suggest to properly identify a luke warm attitude of a 14-15 year old kid?"

A chat with the kid and his parents?

"Any selection process would inevitably lead to the problems I've mentioned and is unfair on young kids who probably don't know who they'll feel they want to play for 4 or 5 years down the road."

What is unfair is that the IFA are coaching and grooming players for the FAI to utilise at a later date. That has got to stop.

"I have none but I think it's reasonable to assume a Catholic from Northern Ireland is far more likely to choose to represent the Republic than a Protestant. If this is an unfair assumption feel free to correct me but I'd imagine a lot of people assume the same"

I would have thought it was a nationalist/republican from Northern Ireland is far more likely to choose to represent the Republic than a Unionist/Loyalist.

Being someone who doesn't really understand the differences between two very similar strands of exactly the same religion, I tend to think the issue is one of national identity rather than denominational allegiance.

Not Brazil

26/10/2006, 2:35 PM

By the way, I don't know who Sammy Clingan is, but I doubt with a name like that, that he is a catholic/nationalist, but again, maybe I'm wrong.

You are wrong.

Not Brazil

26/10/2006, 2:39 PM

Speak to FIFA (e..

I'm sure both the IFA and the FAI will be doing so, prior to representatives from both Associations sitting down together and amicably agreeing a way forward to the mutual satisfaction of both.;)

Jamjar

26/10/2006, 2:42 PM

You are wrong.
Not for the first time either :D

On a lighter note:
Ian Paisley is in a coma for 10 years, he wakes up with Ian jnr. at his side.
"What's been happening for the last 10 yrs. son"

"Oh Da, it's terrible, there's a united Ireland now, we all have to speak Irish, and most of our church has converted to catholicism"

"That's unbelievable" says the big man.

"But Da, its not all bad news" says Ian jnr.
"Linfield won the cup again".

"Thats great son, what was the score ?"

"2-10 to 5 points " !!

Not Brazil

26/10/2006, 2:44 PM

Perhaps the IFA should ask itself a different question to one the some of you seem to be tackling:

Instead of "What can these players offer us, and how can we protect our investment"

to

"What can we do to provide better to support young players in our community"

The IFA asked itself the latter question some time ago, and are very pro active in supporting young players throughout Northern Ireland.

Not really the issue tho, is it?

youngirish

26/10/2006, 2:45 PM

I deleted my last message.

Jamjar

26/10/2006, 2:50 PM

If everything is as good as previous posts suggest, then this 'problem' between NI and RoI will only be temporary. RoI are slipping down the FIFA rankings while NI are going the other way. Most players would declare for the more successful team I presume, and at the moment there is very little contest.

Not Brazil

26/10/2006, 2:51 PM

Not for the first time either :D

On a lighter note:
Ian Paisley is in a coma for 10 years, he wakes up with Ian jnr. at his side.
"What's been happening for the last 10 yrs. son"

"Oh Da, it's terrible, there's a united Ireland now, we all have to speak Irish, and most of our church has converted to catholicism"

"That's unbelievable" says the big man.

"But Da, its not all bad news" says Ian jnr.
"Linfield won the cup again".

"Thats great son, what was the score ?"

"2-10 to 5 points " !!

Deary, deary me - the old ones are the best eh?

Anyway, has "The Big Man":rolleyes: not been in some sort of a coma for over 50 years, never mind 10?

Here's a true story:

In October 2004, Football Association of Ireland CEO Fran Rooney upset many in the North with a joke denigrating the North's soccer team. Prior to the Republic's recent game against the Faroe Islands he told journalists of the boy who, when asked what his father did for a living, replied that he was a stripper in a gay bar. The punch line was that the boy was too embarrassed to say that his father was a member of the Northern Ireland soccer team.

I hope the FAI are reminded of that by Messrs Wells & Boyce when the two Associations meet to iron out the eligibility issues soon.

cheifo

26/10/2006, 3:03 PM

I wouldnt worry about him too much(Rooney), he left both Baltimore and the FAI under a cloud.I can understand where people have aproblem with this issue.Andy O brien constantly gets mentioned as somebody who chose England as his first country(u21 I think).Incidentally, remember last year the managment of ROIu19 were furious last year when a NOI player commited a brutal tackle on Bohs Mark Keane, smashing his leg to pieces.That player was M O'Conner of Crewe who has since declared for the Republic.Rule should be you decide when you are eighteen and no changing after that.

EalingGreen

26/10/2006, 3:10 PM

wasnt alan kernaghan born in norn iron, or am i completely wrong?

Though brought up in NI and developed through the IFA under-age teams, Kernaghan and both his parents were born in England. The IFA did not at that time accept Grandparents (AK's were from NI) as being eligible to qualify him, so turned him down for the senior team (shortsighted clowns)
Consequently, Kernaghan turned to the FAI, who were prepared to give him his chance. Fair play to them both.

Paddy Garcia

26/10/2006, 3:20 PM

The IFA asked itself the latter question some time ago, and are very pro active in supporting young players throughout Northern Ireland.

Not really the issue tho, is it?

That is positive so.

However I'd suggest it becomes the issue if the IFA energy & time is spent trying to hand cuff young players.

EalingGreen

26/10/2006, 3:21 PM

The ROI could not give a damn about their background, only if they could kick a ball reasonably straight.

I agree entirely. My concern is not that the FAI cares about political or religious matters; rather it is that they don't give a damn about anything, in their efforts to produce the best possible team for themselves.
Which means they may be covertly "tapping up" (even inducing?) young NI-born players who otherwise are happy to play for us.
And if this is so, they will only dare approach kids from a Nationalist background, who are much less likely to "blow the whistle" (McKenna and Baird excepted).
The effect of which, intended or otherwise, is to discriminate against any young NI Prod who might fancy his chances with the ROI (unlikely, I know, but the principle remains).
More seriously, if continued, this policy could eventually lead to a "Catholic/Nationalist" team in Ireland (ROI) and a "Protestant/Unionist" team (NI).:eek:

And the IFA is the Association which continuously has to defend itself against charges of discrimination? :(

EalingGreen

26/10/2006, 3:33 PM

They couldn't which is the point I made. So are you agreeing with me that its nonsense to suggest on a screening process because it would lead to abuses due to political/religious affiliations, or disagreeing?

I was never suggesting that the IFA should become a feeder organisation for the FAI and nor would it ever amount to that unless this problem starts happening on a far larger scale than currently but compensation is better than other suggestions of locking 14-15 year old kids in NI to their national team for life which FIFA definitely wouldn't agree to. It's also better than the current situation. I don't see a problem if a kid wants to switch to the ROI team from the NI setup, he should have the same options open to him as all other kids playing international football throughout the world (I think currently any player can change international teams if they haven't received a senior cap). Surely if the argument is that the IFA devoted it's resources to the development of these players then compensation can address that complaint. Forcing them to remain NI players is not an alternative option.

Re your first para, I never suggested any sort of "screening" process. I don't see how it could work and I wouldn't agree even if it could. Clear?

Re your second Para, why would the FAI pay compensation unless they felt there was some sort of obligation? And if there were such obligation, since the players would only ever go one way and the money the other, that is in effect setting up a feeder Association.

Frankly, we do not want money, we want young players who play for us because they want to. If there are other kids who want to play for somebody else, then fair enough, let them do so.
Just don't let us waste our time and money on coaching kids who are only going to benefit someone else, at the same time as taking places that more committed, if less talented, kids would die for.

co. down green

26/10/2006, 3:35 PM

EalingGreen

26/10/2006, 3:49 PM

Why must we conclude that ? My attitude obviously has more to do with my age, I remember Billy Binghams era in charge, an era of blatant sectarianism (chants etc.), and so am sceptical of this huge shift, that is not to say it is not happening of course.
I personally don't give a flying f�ck who plays for NI.

By the way, I don't know who Sammy Clingan is, but I doubt with a name like that, that he is a catholic/nationalist, but again, maybe I'm wrong.

Have you ever been to an NI game, either in the Bingham era, or recently? I guess not. In which case, why do you remain sceptical, rather than open-minded, about all the evidence of the huge shift which so many people, neutral and authoritative, have documented? Indeed, why are you sceptical about the evidence of Neil Lennon himself? After all, as one of the victims most affected by former sectarianism etc, you might expect him to be the last person to come out and acknowledge change, as he so clearly has. Then again, he's probably not a sceptic.

As for your comment on Clingan, I'm afraid judging people by their name is "So 1980's, darling". These days, we have electronic scanners up here which automatically measure the distance between peoples eyes.

So maybe you are wrong...

EalingGreen

26/10/2006, 4:03 PM

some young players may be falling prey to the influence of people whose interests may not be entirely footballing in scope - neighbours, "community workers", Agents, and a certain political party which otherwise never shows any affection for a "garrison Game", played on a Partitionist basis. Can we really say that a 17 year-old, facing such pressures, is really acting of his own free will

What utter rubbish. This is the sort of claptrap that you would expect from a unionist/loyalist politician, rather than a football fan.

Please provide some evidence for the above statement, if you can't, stop talking b**ls.

Darron Gibson from Derry has spoken several times on the issue. He talks of growing up supporting Ireland and going to internationals at Lansdowne, his family support Ireland , his community support Ireland , his city supports Ireland. The only influence Gibson came under was the influence of wanting to be like his hero Roy keane, who he wants to emulate on the international stage.

Marc Wilson from Lurgan was interviewed last week regarding his appearance in Don Given�s u21 squad, Wilson said it was the natural decision for him as he had grown up supporting Ireland and he was very comfortable within the set up.

Both players have been in the Ireland set up for the last couple of years, so I�m not sure why their decision is becoming an issue �to some� now.

I would be astonished if youngsters in many parts of NI were not coming under these sorts of pressures - on both sides of the divide. I am not saying that all succumb to them, nor that those from a Nationalist background (such as Gibson and Wilson) are acting in any way other than of their own free will.

But when kids from Nationalist areas are buying NI tops these days, but are wary about wearing them in their own community, it is "blind" not to recognise there may be a problem. In particular, we have recently seen Sinn Fein politicians commenting in faintly threatening terms on this whole issue, when the same individuals never previously expressed a damned bit of interest in the game.

As for evidence (of pressure in one direction, or inducements from the other), by definition this is going to be hard to produce. However, statements by Baird and McKenna are evidence.

And while I accept entirely your point about Gibson and Wilson, why are other players (Kane & O'Connor, for instance), suddenly opting for the ROI, when previously they were happy to represent NI on numerous occasions?

Unless, of course, they don't feel they good enough to get a game for NI these days? ;)

Not Brazil

26/10/2006, 4:13 PM

In particular, we have recently seen Sinn Fein politicians commenting in faintly threatening terms on this whole issue, when the same individuals never previously expressed a damned bit of interest in the game.

They were "warning" the IFA about "private lobbying" of FIFA over the issue EG.

They must have been right ****ed off when their recent request to privately lobby the IFA about forming a United Ireland team were put in the dustbin at Windsor Avenue.;)

The one good thing that comes out of all of this, is that it should finally kill any more crap being talked about a "United" Ireland side.

It copperfastens the future of the two Associations for the foreseeable future.

Merc67

26/10/2006, 6:48 PM

GSTQ and the flag are still issues that need to be resolved, but if you genuinely do not realise that things have changed for the better, then I think that you have the problem.
so it's not 'as bad', so what? hardly a lot to celebrate, cos as you said the major issues still stand.

Just because Lennon is not there to embarrass the bigots does not mean things have changed greatly....

Take the fact that sectarian songs are no longer sung at WP (maybe by individual idiots, but not by the crowd).
Take the fact that the majority of the crowd go there wearing green replica NI tops (rather than Linfield, Rangers, or other 'provocative' tops).

Do you remember November '93? And have you seen any of the recent games? There's simply no comparison.

have they played us recently? would you expect, in this climate, anything like '93? i surely wouldnt....

On the issue of northern players declaring for the Republic, I don't think they should be restricted at all, but I can see the IFA's point. They are a small association (unlike the English FA, another place the Republic 'pinches'* from) and they should rightly expect to get the international players from their meagre resources.

Perhaps we should let the IFA pick players from the south. They used to do it up until the 50s, so why not? I doubt many payers would actually want to, but if we all agree that we're all Irish of one shade or another (and that is exactly what the Republic is doing when it exercises a right to pick players from the occupied six counties), then why shouldn't other Irish players be available for selction for the other Irish team?

if they want to try and recuruit - fire away, but there's no reciprocal situation, as if you didn't know. there's no dual nationality, no disputes etc... but if they wanted to pick the dregs and people here who wanted to play for them fire away, but as you and i know, there are few dublin, cork, galway players who'd like to run out and stand for GSTQ.

if they get fellas from here with belfast born parents fire away, why not?
i do, however, sympathise with their 'plight' but can only say, tough. maybe if it were a more representative ass then things might not be as they are...

Merc67

26/10/2006, 6:50 PM

They were "warning" the IFA about "private lobbying" of FIFA over the issue EG.

They must have been right ****ed off when their recent request to privately lobby the IFA about forming a United Ireland team were put in the dustbin at Windsor Avenue.;)

The one good thing that comes out of all of this, is that it should finally kill any more crap being talked about a "United" Ireland side.

It copperfastens the future of the two Associations for the foreseeable future.

they were looking after the rights of young irishmen to proclaim their national identity without pressure from an unrepresentative association.

of course the IFA were not going to be interested in the united team:rolleyes:

was the 'united' team any more alive in recent months than now?

Merc67

26/10/2006, 6:56 PM

More seriously, if continued, this policy could eventually lead to a "Catholic/Nationalist" team in Ireland (ROI) and a "Protestant/Unionist" team (NI).:eek: (

hahahahahahahahahahah **breath** ahahahhahahahahhahahahhahaha imagine a team being represented by the majority religion in either jurisdiction!?!? call in the police!

fwiw, there will never be a religious breakdown in the south, though i'd wager 90% are catholics anyhow, albeit prob about 5% bother with it.

and why, now, is ther suddenly a worry that the NI team would represent unionism!!? it always has and will for the forseeable future!

Metrostars

26/10/2006, 7:31 PM

Similar goings on between Mexico and the US - kids of Mexican descent, born in the US and gone through the US acadmies and represented the US at youth level are being scouted out and called up by Mexico:

http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=423414

Not Brazil

26/10/2006, 7:32 PM

Merc 67,

"so it's not 'as bad', so what?"

It's actually very good.

"Just because Lennon is not there to embarrass the bigots does not mean things have changed greatly...."

Yip. This has been acknowledged by Neil Lennon - perhaps the biggest victim of the bigots.

"they were looking after the rights of young irishmen to proclaim their national identity without pressure from an unrepresentative association"

Oh right - political intervention and pressure then.:rolleyes:

It may be lost on you, but I'm an Irishman too.;)

How, exactly, are the IFA "unrepresentative"?

"of course the IFA were not going to be interested in the united team"

Of course not - why then did a political party seek meetings with the IFA to discuss this non runner?:eek:

"was the 'united' team any more alive in recent months than now?"

It comes and goes, doesn't it? Hopefully when this matter is resolved, it'll fade away.

"and why, now, is ther suddenly a worry that the NI team would represent unionism!!? it always has and will for the forseeable future!"

Erm - because we're very proud that our teams at all levels, do, and always have, included players from both main traditions in Northern Ireland?

I wouldn't expect ANY true republicans to support our teams under any circumstances - no matter what the anthem, flag etc - it would be sooooo not republican. The teams represent Northern Ireland, you see.

Come to think of it, I don't understand why true republicans support the ROI team either. Still, better the partitionist team you know eh?

Not Brazil

26/10/2006, 7:35 PM

Co Down Green.

Snap.:eek:

http://www.oneteaminireland.co.uk

:D

crc

26/10/2006, 8:48 PM

http://oneteaminireland.bravehost.com/

http://www.oneteaminireland.co.uk
I wish there was only one team in Ireland, and in an ideal world I wouldn't mind if that team were the one that is currently called the Republic of Ireland (this would somehow involve the disappearance of the N.Ireland team). But it isn't an ideal world, and the NI team will not just disappear because of some uni-lateral action by the Republic, and consequently we could easily drift towards a situation with a de-facto nationalist international team, and a de-facto unionist international team. If that happenned, you would find that the prospects of an actual all-Ireland international team (one to which everyone could unambiguously give their allegiance) would be even more remote than it currently is.

Not Brazil

26/10/2006, 9:03 PM

But it isn't an ideal world, and the NI team will not just disappear because of some uni-lateral action by the Republic, and consequently we could easily drift towards a situation with a de-facto nationalist international team, and a de-facto unionist international team. If that happenned, you would find that the prospects of an actual all-Ireland international team (one to which everyone could unambiguously give their allegiance) would be even more remote than it currently is.

Absolutely spot on crc.

co. down green

26/10/2006, 9:46 PM

And while I accept entirely your point about Gibson and Wilson, why are other players (Kane & O'Connor, for instance), suddenly opting for the ROI, when previously they were happy to represent NI on numerous occasions?

With regard to Kane, he had commited himself to the Ireland set up over 2 years ago and was named in the u17 squad in 2004, he was however 'persuaded' by someone within the IFA organisation to continue playing for the North. Kane now has obviously decided that his future lies with the Ireland set up.

Gibson, Wilson & Kane have all been part of (or had links with-Kane) the Ireland underage set up for a number of years, so i still don't see why playing for their country is becoming such a big issue now.

Kevin Deery, Eugene Ferry & Mark Mukendi from Derry are currently playing for Ireland at various levels - whats the problem ??

Threads like this are always going to be highjacked by some who have more interest in pushing a political point rather than having a real interest in football, so i'll leave you to it.

To be honest i'm more interested in seeing Shane Long keep his place up front for Reading this Saturday than i am having a slagging match with people who seem more interested in politics than football.

Foot.ie is a great site and covers all aspects of Irish football, it isn't ravaged with politics and negativity like some other football sites on this island, long may it continue.

Goodnight & good luck.

cheifo

26/10/2006, 11:41 PM

This issue is relevant to footbal fans of both the North and the Republic and IMO has been discussed by everybody in a responsible and articulate manner.
Peace man:p

lopez

27/10/2006, 12:22 AM

We've had 'tapping up,' 'inducements', 'neighbours', 'community workers', 'Agents', 'a certain political party.' What else? Parents? Siblings? Social workers? That old favourite, Gloryhunting? Oh no, that can't be it as we're the cr*p ones now, so it must be not being able to get into the team. Failing that it must be because they - or the FAI - are bigots.

Ealing Green, Not Brazil and all those muppetts spitting fire on ourweeminds: I'd hate to be the bloke that had to dump you load of girls. What a bunch of bunnyboilers! One eejit from Donegal even wants to '...create hell about it. How about waiting at the airport and asking Givens, Kane and O'Connor to explain? The fans want answers!' Glenn Close has got nothing on this w*nker.

Isn't about time you all moved on. As I say to anyone that's been given the dear John, there's plenty more fish in the sea. With all the immigration going on in England, I'm sure you'll pick up a couple of Maik Taylor's that aren't good enough to play for the mother country to make up for this and future dissapointments.:(

PS: Ealing Green, do you actually have some proof of interference with these two kids from Sinn Fein? Or is this the usual horsesh*t that I've come to expect from you?

Merc67

27/10/2006, 12:31 AM

consequently we could easily drift towards a situation with a de-facto nationalist international team, and a de-facto unionist international team. If that happenned, you would find that the prospects of an actual all-Ireland international team (one to which everyone could unambiguously give their allegiance) would be even more remote than it currently is.

isnt the northern side a de-facto unionist team as things stand? forget the claims of chanting, jerseys in the crowd etc - but isnt that what they, their anthem, their flag stand for? i fail to see anything but that....

as for the 'nationalist' team, i feel that brings a certain politicisation of the 'ireland' team (which is waht it says on the shirt :) )... there isnt and never has been that politicisation of the 'nationalist' team, and just cos some citizens of the O6 want to play for their 'national' team doesnt make it so.

you cannot say it's another side of the same coin. are players from dublin, cork etc nationalists? i dont think so. so why make the label for those in the north. that, my friend is true partitionism.

i look at the team i watch in green as being representative of the whole island and this recent issue proves it can be. people who want to call themselves Irish and british (an impossibility imo) are the only ones who exclude themselves from this team.

that, is a political decision.

bennocelt

27/10/2006, 7:13 AM

Consequently, Kernaghan turned to the FAI, who were prepared to give him his chance. Fair play to them both.

thanks for that

but are you sure that was such a bad decision for the IFA, i always thought Kernaghan was a bit of a joke

Not Brazil

27/10/2006, 8:34 AM

Merc67,

"isnt the northern side a de-facto unionist team as things stand? forget the claims of chanting, jerseys in the crowd etc - but isnt that what they, their anthem, their flag stand for? i fail to see anything but that...."

Northern Ireland (the entity) is, rightly or wrongly, part of the United Kingdom.

The only way that changes is at the ballot box.

Northern Ireland (teams), at all levels, are cross community.

I have been a long time advocate of a new, sporting, Anthem for sporting events held in Northern Ireland - whether that be football, GAA, whatever.

I want to see an Anthem that is uniquely Northern Irish - as per Wales & Scotland, for our international team.

As for flags - the official flag of Northern Ireland is the Union Flag. The IFA actually remove the Union Flag from Windsor Park for international fixtures.

FIFA recognise the old Stormont flag (The Ulster Banner) as the official flag of our teams.

After much debate with fellow fans, I would be broadly in agreement to the formation of a new Northern Irish flag.

Having said all of that, none of it will change Northern Ireland's constitutional position within the Union.

"as for the 'nationalist' team, i feel that brings a certain politicisation of the 'ireland' team (which is waht it says on the shirt )... there isnt and never has been that politicisation of the 'nationalist' team, and just cos some citizens of the O6 want to play for their 'national' team doesnt make it so"

Of course, that ignores the fact that the citizens of the 06 who are declaring for the Republic are "nationalists", expressing their desire to play for their "nation". That, my friend, is political.

"you cannot say it's another side of the same coin. are players from dublin, cork etc nationalists? i dont think so. so why make the label for those in the north. that, my friend is true partitionism."

Does this "patriotism" not involve political sentiment?

"i look at the team i watch in green as being representative of the whole island and this recent issue proves it can be. people who want to call themselves Irish and british (an impossibility imo) are the only ones who exclude themselves from this team"

Firstly, I am proudly Irish and British. That's not an "impossibility", it's a stone wall fact. Dail Minister, Liz O'Donnell, was acknowledging this very real identity within the last few days. A welcome and overdue recognition.

Our very shirts confirm our Irishness. On there is a Celtic Cross, Shamrocks and the name of our Association - the IRISH Football Association.

I look at the team I watch in green as being representative of Northern Ireland. I was born in Northern Ireland, both my late parents were born in Northern Ireland, I live in Northern Ireland, I work in Northern Ireland and my two children were born in Northern Ireland. I support Northern Ireland. It's very simple.

"that, is a political decision"

It's not. It's a decision based on my place of birth. Belfast, Northern Ireland.

A "political decision" would be one whereby I turned my back on my home Association because I do not recognise/support/agree with the entity called Northern Ireland.

I fully accept that a sizeable minority in Northern Ireland do not recognise/support/agree with the entity called Northern Ireland, and seek it's demise.

On the topic of defections to the Republic, I want to see the best interests of the Irish Football Association served, but would not wish to deny the right of a young nationalist from Northern Ireland to declare for the Republic.

I would like to see that declaration made earlier in their career.

I have little doubt that the matter will be resolved satisfactorily between the IFA & the FAI, with input from FIFA.

crc

27/10/2006, 8:40 AM

isnt the northern side a de-facto unionist team as things stand?True, but I don't think the situation is black and white, and there are definate signs that the IFA and NI Fans are making a genuine effort to be more inclusive (though I agree, they could take a giant step by reforming the flag and anthem issue).

as for the 'nationalist' team, i feel that brings a certain politicisation of the 'ireland' team (which is waht it says on the shirt :) )... there isnt and never has been that politicisation of the 'nationalist' team, and just cos some citizens of the O6 want to play for their 'national' team doesnt make it so.But almost everything in Ireland is political. The mere fact that that you refer to the 'occupied six counties' is proof of this. Don't get me wrong, I continue to think that guys from Derry, Antrim, or wherever should be able to play for the Republic - the team which I support - but I don't pretend that the issue isn't political.

are players from dublin, cork etc nationalists? i dont think so. so why make the label for those in the north. that, my friend is true partitionism.I'm not making the label, just offering a reailstic analysis of the situation in the north. Rightly or wrongly, in the north the RoI team is viewed as the 'Nationalist team'.
As it happens, I am absolutley not a partitionist. In fact, there is very little els that could more closely describe my political views than anti-partitionism. Simply because I am not in favour of re-partition (i.e. shifting the border, or the imagined border, further to the north-east) does not mean I am in favour of the existing border.

...people who want to call themselves Irish and british (an impossibility imo)...

i look at the team i watch in green as being representative of the whole islandBy suggesting that being Irish and British are mutually exclusive you are ensuring that the 'Ireland' team (as you and many others call it) does not, in fact, represent everyone in Ireland.

I'm not British, and have no desire to be British, but I don't make not-being-British a defining feature of my Irishness. This is at least partly because I realise that there are a great many people in Ireland who value their British heritage without that making them any less Irish. Only when you force them into a binary conundrum, do they tend to chose the former over the latter, but it need not be so.

gspain

27/10/2006, 8:41 AM

thanks for that

but are you sure that was such a bad decision for the IFA, i always thought Kernaghan was a bit of a joke

Alan Kernghan was no joke. He had a terrible game v Spain in October 1993 when too many players and fans expected an easy ride to the world Cup. He wasn't the only one to have astinker that day.

He also had some great games for us such as Denamrk away 92 and played very well in Windsor Park in Nov 93 when we qualified for the World Cup. He lost out to a classy looking Phil Babb after that. Babb was a decent defender with loads of talent before he went off the rails.

Alan Kernaghan was a tough no nonsense defender who always gave 100% in a green shirt. We can ask no more than that.

Stuttgart88

27/10/2006, 8:47 AM

Would Kernaghan get in the current team?

Paddy Garcia

27/10/2006, 8:57 AM

Would Kernaghan get in the current team?

Yes, the equivalent would be a young captain of a premiership team, playing consistently well fotr them, and for us in play offs (with, as was mentioned, the exception of Spain). He put in some tremendous performances for Ireland and at one stage looked to be a likely permanent fixture.

Would certainly be called up before a centre back (with great potential) on the bench for a team a division down.

Lionel Ritchie

27/10/2006, 9:08 AM

i look at the team i watch in green as being representative of the whole island and this recent issue proves it can be. people who want to call themselves Irish and british (an impossibility imo) are the only ones who exclude themselves from this team.
that, is a political decision. Broadminded, magnanimous AND inclusive. Some people really are givers.

Listen I didn't hold my fire over on their board when it came to those who'd like to tell people who they can and cannot be nor what they are and are not. I'll not hold back here either. Some of the very best people to pull on our jersey consider themselves Irish and British at the same time. If you've any doubts as to that then you're being very naive and unfair with it.

Some of the very best people to pull on their jersey ditto as well as no small amount who wouldn't consider themselves British at all either.

Their teams, at all levels, have been consistently balanced and reflective of the entire community.

Their support has had some right hairy patches down the years -but right now ...they're second to none.

You see their enthusiasm matched by our away support at times - but scarcely by Lansdowne.

gspain

27/10/2006, 9:23 AM

Ealing Green posted these links to the FIFA site on the ourweecountry forum.

http://www.fifa.com/documents/static/regulations/Statutes_09_2005_EN.pdf
See Article 15 (Pg. 33/39)

http://www.fifa.com/documents/static/regulations/Status_Transfer_EN.pdf
Annex 2, Article 1 Conditions (Pg. 29/44)

These are the rules that determine whether or not O'Connor and Kane can play for us.

I'd be interested i nany interpretations of these as to how the F.A.I. deem them eligible. I have my own theory which I've posted on owc and will do here but for those who haven't seen it I'd rather you try and come up with your own.

The assumption being that in each case they were born in Northern Ireland, or NI parentage and grandparentage and never lived in the Republic.

youngirish

27/10/2006, 9:27 AM

The problem that needs to be looked into is not why are the FAI stealing our players? What should be looked into is why don't we look at our team and our national setup to try to understand why so many young Northern Irish footballers don't feel they want to be a part of it?

From reading some of the posts its obvious to me that some of the Northern Ireland supporters have a very real sense of fear and/or paranoia regarding the south trying to steal their players/disband their team etc. This is not the FAI's problem as far as I can see it. Why should we not take their players if they don't want to play for their own national team? It's the IFA that need to look at themselves.

And I love some of the ignorance that states everything is fine regarding the north and their support at the moment. If everything was fine your team would equally represent both sides of the community and your players would not be jumping ship in f**king droves from one side of that community. Look at these problems, closer to home and stop being paranoid about the South trying to sabotage your team. I personally don't care if Darron Gibson and Co plays for us or not. It won't make much difference to our team in the long run.

Merc67

27/10/2006, 9:28 AM

Broadminded, magnanimous AND inclusive. Some people really are givers.

Listen I didn't hold my fire over on their board when it came to those who'd like to tell people who they can and cannot be nor what they are and are not. I'll not hold back here either. Some of the very best people to pull on our jersey consider themselves Irish and British at the same time. If you've any doubts as to that then you're being very naive and unfair with it.

Some of the very best people to pull on their jersey ditto as well as no small amount who wouldn't consider themselves British at all either.

Their teams, at all levels, have been consistently balanced and reflective of the entire community.

Their support has had some right hairy patches down the years -but right now ...they're second to none.

You see their enthusiasm matched by our away support at times - but scarcely by Lansdowne.

im not even going to bother debating the noise levels and enthusiasm of their support - so what? ibrox can be raucous at times too:)
as for the players who have considered themselves British 'and' Irish i take it you mean folk like Cascarino, Houghton, McAteer etc? in fairness, it's a very different issue as they are not making some sort of political statement, merely stating an obvious fact that has come around thanks to a FIFA ruling that allows you to be born and bred in one country and represent another.

heck, we could have someone that is both Irish and Polish very easily... so as i said, not really the same issue.

the irish and british people i have issue with are those born on the island of ireland. i could go into it but im not really sure i want to rant and it prob doesnt belong here..

but the belief system is f**ked up and patronising generally - witness the darts commentator on Sky last night covering the Grand Prix in Dublin.

"the next (english) loser will be on the ferry back to the mainland immediately..." - this is the sort of rubbish you get when people believe its possible to be irish and british....

Merc67

27/10/2006, 9:34 AM

Ealing Green posted these links to the FIFA site on the ourweecountry forum.

http://www.fifa.com/documents/static/regulations/Statutes_09_2005_EN.pdf
See Article 15 (Pg. 33/39)

http://www.fifa.com/documents/static/regulations/Status_Transfer_EN.pdf
Annex 2, Article 1 Conditions (Pg. 29/44)
.

Article 15.1 makes them eligible.
Article 15.3(a) makes them eligible
Article 15.3(b) makes them eligible
annex 2, article 1.2 then basically goes against local legislation, which is particularly sensitive in this area. i dont think anyone can, with a straight face, argue that because FIFA say it, it should overrule the legal possession of a passport which entitles someone to play for the 'south'.

Not Brazil

27/10/2006, 10:21 AM

And I love some of the ignorance that states everything is fine regarding the north and their support at the moment. If everything was fine your team would equally represent both sides of the community and your players would not be jumping ship in f**king droves from one side of that community

Whilst I would doubt the "f**king droves" assertion, allow me to pose a question to you.

Bearing in mind that the Northern Ireland team will always represent the entity that is Northern Ireland, what changes do you suggest that would enable all young players born in Northern Ireland to represent Northern Ireland with pride?

Merc67

27/10/2006, 10:24 AM

Bearing in mind that the Northern Ireland team will always represent the entity that is Northern Ireland, what changes do you suggest that would enable all young players born in Northern Ireland to represent Northern Ireland with pride?

there wouldn't be any that would totally make this possible. nationalists, clearly, are against the very existence of the state so why would they want to represent it?

you seem to underestimate the very powerful image that is the 'statelet's flag and where it is mostly seen. why would someone who is completely against this endorse it?

if you are to take only footballers, mostly airheads who would do anything to get a game and a few quid, then i'd imagine negating the 'british' feel would go some way to making a change...

Not Brazil

27/10/2006, 10:27 AM

"the next (english) loser will be on the ferry back to the mainland immediately..." - this is the sort of rubbish you get when people believe its possible to be irish and british....

I don't get your point Merc67.

If the darts thrower is English, he's not claiming to be Irish and British.

He is English and British.

Being born and bred in Belfast, I am Irish and British.

You may have issues with that, but it's a reality that byou'll have to come to terms with.

Not Brazil

27/10/2006, 10:39 AM

there wouldn't be any that would totally make this possible. nationalists, clearly, are against the very existence of the state so why would they want to represent it?

:eek:

So why would the IFA & Northern Ireland fans want to make changes to appease those who are against "the very existance of the State"?

Our teams represent the entity that is Northern Ireland - that is non negotiable.

For so long as there is an entity called Northern Ireland, there will be teams representing Northern Ireland.

And you claimed the issue of young nationalists choosing to declare for the Republic was not political?:rolleyes:

Merc67

27/10/2006, 10:42 AM

I don't get your point Merc67.

If the darts thrower is English, he's not claiming to be Irish and British.

He is English and British.

Being born and bred in Belfast, I am Irish and British.

You may have issues with that, but it's a reality that byou'll have to come to terms with.

i won't come to terms with it. apologies;) i'll rail against it and anyone who attempts to push that ideology, it is false, it doesnt work. it's offensive and harks back to the day when irish people were lampooned on Punch magazine. your people were the ones doing the lampooning, now you want to be Irish? ****ing hell.

re: the darts commentator - this just shows how yuo cannot be Irish. he said the 'mainland' - like we're a ****ing little island off britain that belongs to them. im sorry, that just gets my goat, and you didnt even notice it. you are not irish. you're a northern 'citizen' who holds a british passport. no part of ireland is british, there are british people in ireland.