Northern players declaring for the Republic

[Not Brazil]

you seem to underestimate the very powerful image that is the 'statelet's flag and where it is mostly seen. why would someone who is completely against this endorse it?



Lots of people in Northern Ireland view the Tricolor in the same way.

Interesting that Northern Irish rugby players are tolerant enough to stand under a Tricolor at Landsdowne Road, ever though it does not represent them one iota.

[Merc67]

:eek:

So why would the IFA & Northern Ireland fans want to make changes to appease those who are against "the very existance of the State"?

For so long as there is an entity called Northern Ireland, there will be teams representing Northern Ireland.

And you claimed the issue of young nationalists choosing to declare for the Republic was not political?:rolleyes:

im not saying they should! - as my post showed, that was the last point i made, as a footnote. i think no nationalist/irish passport holder should play for the windsor team.

i dont think it has to be labelled political (although in essence most choices made are), because its an easy decision based on what you feel. they dont have to sit down and think too much about it i'd imagine, it's what they are. so its not necessarily a political statement, per se. get me?

[antrimgreen]

Irish when it suits you to be, and british when it suits you. No doubt if you were visting foreign countries you would be saying you are Irish. You have one nationality what is it Not Brazil Irish or British??

[Merc67]

Lots of people in Northern Ireland view the Tricolor in the same way.

Interesting that Northern Irish rugby players are tolerant enough to stand under a Tricolor at Landsdowne Road, ever though it does not represent them one iota.

What's your point? they dont fly it at NI games, do they!??!?! anyhow, the meaning of the tricolour is all but lost on unionists too, i suppose. theyre too busy burning them to find out the true meaning.

as for the rugby players, as my point above, it does represent them, no? the colour on the right hand side of the flag? :)

also, we have to endure that godawful Ireland's call thanks to them:D

[Merc67]

oh and isn't it the UK of GB and NI... so how is NI 'british'....

is it not simply part of the UK?

[Dodge]

Irish when it suits you to be, and british when it suits you. No doubt if you were visting foreign countries you would be saying you are Irish. You have one nationality what is it Not Brazil Irish or British??

He might be both. Don't let this thread decend into name calling. Its been OK so far.

Just on one point, the NI lads here seem to indicate that tapping up occurs and that the FAI only taps up catholic/nationalist lads. The FAI say no tapping up occurs.

So if it is happening, how do you know they're not tapping up Prod/Unionist lads? Maybe they're approached and say nothing (unless you think that only Baird/McKenna were approached on turned it down) Oh and as we're on this not labelling people with religions based on names, how do you know the leanings of those two?

Unless of course the FAI aren't tapping up players and the lads do just want to play for 'their country'

[Not Brazil]

if you are to take only footballers, mostly airheads who would do anything to get a game and a few quid, then i'd imagine negating the 'british' feel would go some way to making a change...

Those footballers need to decide whether football or politics is their driving force.

Northern Ireland has a "british feel" to it, because it constitutes part of the United Kingdom.

That said, I would be happy to see a new sporting anthem adopted, and a new flag.

If that means that nationalist footballers feel more comfortable playing for Northern Ireland, great.

It would not be my primary motivating factor tho, in seeking such changes.

[crc]

Lots of people in Northern Ireland view the Tricolor in the same way.

What's your point?
...anyhow, the meaning of the tricolour is all but lost on unionists too, i suppose.
His point wasn't to debate the original (noble) meaning of the tricolour, but to point out that because of over a century of history it is seen as offensive by many up north. Think about how you think of the Union flag, that's how they feel about the tricolour (unfortunately).

...as for the rugby players, as my point above, it does represent them, no? the colour on the right hand side of the flag? :)
The red saltire in the Union flag represents Ireland, does that make you any more likely to accept it as a flag that belongs to you? Thought not.

[Not Brazil]

Irish when it suits you to be, and british when it suits you. No doubt if you were visting foreign countries you would be saying you are Irish. You have one nationality what is it Not Brazil Irish or British??

I am Irish and British.

The GFA upholds my right to be, and identify as, Irish and/or British.

I am proudly and unapologetically both. Proud of both my Irish and British heritage.

I support representative sides fielded by The IRISH football Association.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

English and British
Welsh and British
Scottish and British
Irish and British.

Do you get it yet?

[EalingGreen]

[B]
Threads like this are always going to be highjacked by some who have more interest in pushing a political point rather than having a real interest in football, so i'll leave you to it.

To be honest i'm more interested in seeing Shane Long keep his place up front for Reading this Saturday than i am having a slagging match with people who seem more interested in politics than football.

Foot.ie is a great site and covers all aspects of Irish football, it isn't ravaged with politics and negativity like some other football sites on this island, long may it continue.

Goodnight & good luck.

Wow! I fail to see how this thread could ever be completely apolitical, considering the subject matter!
And just because you may disagree with my political point of view doesn't mean that I am a "political" animal, but you are not.
For the record, I've been following the NI football team home and abroad for over 35 years now i.e. since before I could even spell "politics", never mind claim to understand them. In fact, other than to cast my vote at the ballot box every few years, I have never been in any way politically active, either at an official or unofficial level.
I did, however, play football (mostly at a laughably bad standard) for over 20 years for a number of clubs, I am currently a member of three football supporters clubs (NI, THFC and Brentford) and whilst I've no idea of the exact figure, the number of football matches I've paid to attend over the years must be approaching four figures.

[gspain]

Article 15.1 makes them eligible.
Article 15.3(a) makes them eligible
Article 15.3(b) makes them eligible
annex 2, article 1.2 then basically goes against local legislation, which is particularly sensitive in this area. i dont think anyone can, with a straight face, argue that because FIFA say it, it should overrule the legal possession of a passport which entitles someone to play for the 'south'.

FIFA have done this when Qatar handed out passports to talented young Brazilians. This started the whole controversy as before all you needed was a passport and you could play for a country.

The terroritory of the association in the case of the IFA is Northern Ireland.
The terroritory of the association in the case of the FAI is the Republic of Ireland. Whatever about nationalist and/or Republican aspirations these are not in dispute between the respective governments, FIFA or the asscoiations.

[Not Brazil]

anyhow, the meaning of the tricolour is all but lost on unionists too, i suppose. theyre too busy burning them to find out the true meaning.
as for the rugby players, as my point above, it does represent them, no? the colour on the right hand side of the flag? :)


I am well aware of the representation on the Tricolor.

I have never burnt a Tricolor in my life.

I does not represent me in any shape or form. It may be so intentioned, but it is not, and never will be, a flag I identify with.

Many who claim to be the upholders of the representation on the flag have seen to that. Unable to accept that some of their fellow Irishmen and women are proudly British.

[Not Brazil]

oh and isn't it the UK of GB and NI... so how is NI 'british'....

is it not simply part of the UK?

Whatever.:rolleyes:

I am a British citizen, born and bred on the island of Ireland.

Go figure.

[EalingGreen]

We've had...[Bla, bla bla]...the usual horsesh*t that I've come to expect from you?


Lopez,
Following another thread, I've come to realise that it's futile for me to debate any such topic with you, not just because I risk allowing myself to get drawn into endless controversy, to the nth degree of pettiness, but also because it seems to me that the style and content of your posts inevitably say more about you and your opinions than I ever could.
So by all means, keep posting, indeed keep posting in response to my posts if you like; just don't expect me to reciprocate.

[Not Brazil]

im not saying they should! - as my post showed, that was the last point i made, as a footnote. i think no nationalist/irish passport holder should play for the windsor team.

i dont think it has to be labelled political (although in essence most choices made are), because its an easy decision based on what you feel. they dont have to sit down and think too much about it i'd imagine, it's what they are. so its not necessarily a political statement, per se. get me?

Somewhat different for a player that represents Northern Ireland and then changes they "way they feel" tho, isn't it?

Plenty of nationalists/Irish Passport holders play for Northern Ireland representative teams.

Are you suggesting they should exclude themselves?:eek:

[Not Brazil]

His point wasn't to debate the original (noble) meaning of the tricolour, but to point out that because of over a century of history it is seen as offensive by many up north. Think about how you think of the Union flag, that's how they feel about the tricolour (unfortunately).

The red saltire in the Union flag represents Ireland, does that make you any more likely to accept it as a flag that belongs to you? Thought not.

Nail on the head again crc.

The, entirely noble, representation of the flag, was left in tatters when a vicious campaign was waged against those fellow Irishmen and women represented by one third of the flag.

"Brits Out" was the cry.

It will never represent my community in any shape or form.

[Merc67]

His point wasn't to debate the original (noble) meaning of the tricolour, but to point out that because of over a century of history it is seen as offensive by many up north. Think about how you think of the Union flag, that's how they feel about the tricolour (unfortunately).

The red saltire in the Union flag represents Ireland, does that make you any more likely to accept it as a flag that belongs to you? Thought not.

my other point abuot the tricolour is that northern teams are not asked to play beneath it...why didnt you take issue with that?

as for the St Patrick's cross - that's an outdated representation is it not? is the union flag not a flag that evolved. thought so.

[Merc67]

I am Irish and British.

The GFA upholds my right to be, and identify as, Irish and/or British.

I am proudly and unapologetically both. Proud of both my Irish and British heritage.

I support representative sides fielded by The IRISH football Association.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

English and British
Welsh and British
Scottish and British
Irish and British.

Do you get it yet?
it is mutually exclusive. where would someone irish stand on the occupation of ireland by britain? i think we know what side. now, where would you stand - oh wait you were the occupier., you are not irish, you are a 'brit' in ireland...

as for welsh, english and scottish - theyre all part of great britain, NI is not.

[Merc67]

FIFA have done this when Qatar handed out passports to talented young Brazilians. This started the whole controversy as before all you needed was a passport and you could play for a country.

The terroritory of the association in the case of the IFA is Northern Ireland.
The terroritory of the association in the case of the FAI is the Republic of Ireland. Whatever about nationalist and/or Republican aspirations these are not in dispute between the respective governments, FIFA or the asscoiations.


in the first link you sent there is also mention of somene havign a 'nationality' forced upon them by the governing association. i think that would be the case here.

there is a debate over nationality here, it cannot be judged outside that light...

[Not Brazil]

it is mutually exclusive. where would someone irish stand on the occupation of ireland by britain? i think we know what side. now, where would you stand - oh wait you were the occupier., you are not irish, you are a 'brit' in ireland...

as for welsh, english and scottish - theyre all part of great britain, NI is not.

I am not an "occupier".

I was born and bred on the island of Ireland - as were generations of my family before me.

You seem unable to deal with that reality.

Your problem, not mine.

I am a "Brit" born of Ireland.

And here to stay.

[Merc67]

Nail on the head again crc.

The, entirely noble, representation of the flag, was left in tatters when a vicious campaign was waged against those fellow Irishmen and women represented by one third of the flag.

"Brits Out" was the cry.

It will never represent my community in any shape or form.

'brits out' - but sure you;re Irish arent you? :rolleyes: now do YOU get it?

let me hit the nail on the head again, the tricolour is not the flag the players are asked to play under... the unionist st george's cross with crown etc is... its bull****.

[crc]

it is mutually exclusive. where would someone irish stand on the occupation of ireland by britain? i think we know what side. now, where would you stand - oh wait you were the occupier., you are not irish, you are a 'brit' in ireland...
Merciful Jesus! :eek:


This thread was moving along in a thoughtful manner, but has now taken the almost inevitable turn 'south' (so to speak). It can only get worse, I'm outa here.

Slán fellas!

[Not Brazil]

'brits out' - but sure you;re Irish arent you? :rolleyes: now do YOU get it?

let me hit the nail on the head again, the tricolour is not the flag the players are asked to play under... the unionist st george's cross with crown etc is... its bull****.

Yes, I am, proudly, Irish - and, proudly, British.;)

I sure get it.

I have offered my opinion on flags - I can do no more.

[Merc67]

[QUOTE=Not Brazil;563673]
I am a "Brit" born of Ireland.
[QUOTE]
how is that?
you just woke up and decided to be British or are you of occupier blood?

[Merc67]

Merciful Jesus! :eek:


This thread was moving along in a thoughtful manner, but has now taken the almost inevitable turn 'south' (so to speak). It can only get worse, I'm outa here.

Slán fellas!listen, im not a raving ranter... its a point im making.

can one also be palestinian and israeli? is there anything more patronsingly insulting to the irish people than to say you're british and irish ffs.

well we wrecked your country and your culture and your language, but now that ive been here for a while im going to say that my 'irish' is as valid as yours, but oh, yeah, you're still beneath britain so you're british as well.

see this whole British and irish thing, i wonder which is the more dominant...:rolleyes:

[geysir]

Lots of people in Northern Ireland view the Tricolor in the same way.

Interesting that Northern Irish rugby players are tolerant enough to stand under a Tricolor at Landsdowne Road, ever though it does not represent them one iota.
There's an enduring image of Willie John McBride's last game for Ireland. Some guy ran on to the field and wrapped a tricolour around his shoulders. Willie left it on, took the gesture for what it was worth and strolled off the pitch to a loud ovation.

[lopez]

Northern Ireland (the entity) is, rightly or wrongly, part of the United Kingdom. The only way that changes is at the ballot box...As for flags - the official flag of Northern Ireland is the Union Flag. The IFA actually remove the Union Flag from Windsor Park for international fixtures...Having said all of that, none of it will change Northern Ireland's constitutional position within the Union.
So how does this change anything? Scotland is in the UK and their team's followers are mostly anti-unionist. Many Rangers supporters refuse to have anything to do with them. There's been a thread about Catalan and Basque XIs. Both are in Spain. Both are centres of anti-unionism. The excuse that NI is in the UK and must wrap itself in the paraphanalia of unionism is rubbish.

Firstly, I am proudly Irish and British. That's not an "impossibility", it's a stone wall fact. Dail Minister, Liz O'Donnell, was acknowledging this very real identity within the last few days. A welcome and overdue recognition...Our very shirts confirm our Irishness. On there is a Celtic Cross, Shamrocks and the name of our Association - the IRISH Football Association.
Unionism is a combination of being Irish and British, but it relegates one national identity to that of a regional, birthplace form of patriotism and the other to their true nationalism. It is the true nationalism to which they wish their country to physically belong (BTW: This isn't a religion thing, although in NI it lends itself mostly to one religion or the other)

Therefore NI is a region of a greater nation. That's why all the Unionist hissy fits on OWC. People who are born in NI have no right to play for this foreign country called the ROI, because they were born in NI, and there is no negotiating that unless any of their parents and grandparents were born in this foreign country. Hence your response below.

I look at the team I watch in green as being representative of Northern Ireland. I was born in Northern Ireland, both my late parents were born in Northern Ireland, I live in Northern Ireland, I work in Northern Ireland and my two children were born in Northern Ireland. I support Northern Ireland. It's very simple... It's a decision based on my place of birth. Belfast, Northern Ireland. A "political decision" would be one whereby I turned my back on my home Association because I do not recognise/support/agree with the entity called Northern Ireland.


I fully accept that a sizeable minority in Northern Ireland do not recognise/support/agree with the entity called Northern Ireland, and seek it's demise.
What nationalists/republicans seek is unification with the south, not necessarily the demise of NI.

Northern Ireland as an entity remaining as it is, is not a prerequiste to unification. I'd fully support NI retaining huge autonomy in return for Irish unification.

Sinn Fein's 'Eire Nua' policy of the sixties and seventies called for a federal Ireland based on the four provinces. Ulster had nine counties, but I'm sure through negotiating it could be knocked down to six, four or two if politicians wanted. DeValera also spoke of NI remaining intact as a part of a federal Ireland. Neither of the above are normally referred to as West Brits. Both options would also leave the NI team alone (although an island as small as Ireland having two teams is IMO ridiculous).

As you accept, playing for the ROI is a political choice to play for one's nation. As far as I know, Kerry don't have a big following in the 6C so we can discard that 'glory-hunting' sh*te of some people.

Alan Kernghan was no joke.I thought he was a good player before the Spain game. He then seemed to put on a bit too much weight. Also our best looking player, erm, according to my, erm, sister. :o

By suggesting that being Irish and British are mutually exclusive you are ensuring that the 'Ireland' team (as you and many others call it) does not, in fact, represent everyone in Ireland.What's wrong with that? The England team doesn't represent everyone in England, let alone the UK. It doesn't represent me. Do you think that the 'Ireland' team represents Johnny Adair (actually remembering his brief release from prison in 1998, NI doesn't represent him either judging by the England shirts him and his mates were wearing).

Bearing in mind that the Northern Ireland team will always represent the entity that is Northern Ireland, what changes do you suggest that would enable all young players born in Northern Ireland to represent Northern Ireland with pride?Full recognition of both communities at matches. Flying both the UJ or 6C flag and the Tricolour or at the very least the flag of Ulster. Seeing you insist on GSTQ, then have the SS there aswell. In other words include the nationalistic trappings of both communites. Having a some Brian Kennedy love song as an anthem is poitnless. There's nothing offensive about what the Tricolour stands for, but even someone as moderate as you sees it as second only to the swastika in offensiveness, so why should any nationalist accept anything that enforces the British occupation NI.

Now I know you, and Ealing Green, are p*ssing yourself now, but you can p*ss away the next time another of 'your' players opts for 'us'. (sic.)


Lots of people in Northern Ireland view the Tricolor in the same way.

Interesting that Northern Irish rugby players are tolerant enough to stand under a Tricolor at Landsdowne Road, ever though it does not represent them one iota.I'd say the same should be done for the rugby team. Both flags. Both anthems (The Sash instead of GSTQ). No more whinging and no more Ireland's Call.


Those footballers need to decide whether football or politics is their driving force.
Why? Isn't this more 'telling people what to do'? I like my footballers to have some brains and principles, not just an overdose of testosterone.


Northern Ireland has a "british feel" to it, because it constitutes part of the United Kingdom.
True, hence the defections. But it doesn't have to have. See post above on Scotland, Wales, Euskadi, Cataluna, etc.

Whatever.:rolleyes: I am a British citizen, born and bred on the island of Ireland. Go figure.I'm an Irish citizen born and bred in England. I feel no loyalty to this country. I do not support any of its sporting teams or wars that it likes to campaign in the name of 'freedom.' The Union Jack is more offensive to me than the swatika because it is an irredentist rag which displays its occupation of my country. I would never, ever call myself English or British, not even to point score on an English football forum.

[Not Brazil]

[QUOTE=Not Brazil;563673]
I am a "Brit" born of Ireland.
[QUOTE]
how is that?
you just woke up and decided to be British or are you of occupier blood?

I am British, born on the island of Ireland.

I will always be British, and always Irish - proud of my identity.

My late parents, of whoms blood I am, were similarly both born on the island of Ireland. They too were British and Irish.

You really don't get it, do you?:confused:

[lopez]

Lopez,
Following another thread, I've come to realise that it's futile for me to debate any such topic with you, not just because I risk allowing myself to get drawn into endless controversy, to the nth degree of pettiness, but also because it seems to me that the style and content of your posts inevitably say more about you and your opinions than I ever could.
So by all means, keep posting, indeed keep posting in response to my posts if you like; just don't expect me to reciprocate.So you were just making it up about Sinn Fein persuading these two lads into playing for their country? :rolleyes: Now that says 'more about you and your opinions than I ever could.' However I will keep responding to, question, and expose any fairy tales, libel and lies that you post.

BTW, there's an ignore button you can use. Feel free!

[youngirish]

Why has this trend descended into a Northern Ireland British or Irish argument? I personally don't care if EalingGreen and Not Brazil consider themselves British - that is their right if they choose. Equally I don't understand the gripe they have against some players born in Northern ireland representing the Republic if they consequently don't see themselves as British.

I don't believe the other argument that the FAI are operating clandestine operations in the North and brainwashing loyal young players to abandon their country of birth in an X-Files like conspiracy plot is the reason their players are 'defecting' so to speak. The whole Britishness of the NI team is undoubtedly the reason that the majority of these young players don't feel it represents their interests.

[Merc67]

[QUOTE=Merc67;563684][QUOTE=Not Brazil;563673]
I am a "Brit" born of Ireland.


I am British, born on the island of Ireland.

I will always be British, and always Irish - proud of my identity.

My late parents, of whoms blood I am, were similarly both born on the island of Ireland. They too were British and Irish.

You really don't get it, do you?:confused:

would you be both palestinian and israeli too? this is a joke. if you are basing it simply on geography then your entitled to make such a weak argument, but the ignorance with which you are throwing the argument around makes me think of those yanks who claim ulster scots heritage:)
how can you be both an occupier and the occupied? oh no, youre not the occupied are you? ffs.
your claim is based on the patronising, superiority complex of the english (the ones who really started up this british ****, and to whom all others in the UK are inferior, really) that ireland is part of their land.
it is not, it may have been for a time, but it is not now. you are one or the other fella, though you want to be both for whatever reason...

[Merc67]

This British attitude doesn't exist to any large degree in any other part of the UK (I've lived in South East England for the last 8 years and young people here consider themselves to be English far more so than British). Why it persists in Northern Ireland to such a strong extent I don't fully understand.

because they want to show they are NOT Irish.

yet, here, on this site we have a right pair demanding they are Irish too. it;'s a strange one:)

[youngirish]

your claim is based on the patronising, superiority complex of the english (the ones who really started up this british ****, and to whom all others in the UK are inferior, really) that ireland is part of their land.
A bit unfair man. I've lived in the South East of England for the past 8 years and the English don't have this hang up about being British to anywhere near the same degree as NI unionists. They are English first and foremost, British is a term the younger people in particular identify themselves with in a far decreasing capacity.

[Merc67]

A bit unfair man. I've lived in the South East of England for the past 8 years and the English don't have this hang up about being British to anywhere near the same degree as NI unionists. They are English first and foremost, British is a term the younger people in particular identify themselves with in a far decreasing capacity.


yes, you are correct. my point was the idea of 'britain' was based on english expansion in the middle of the last millenium. its no coinceidence that the hq's of anything 'British' are in london or england.... scots and welsh that i know hate the term and being called british, but english folk dont hate it one bit and happily use the union flag. my point was not a slight at the english.

[EalingGreen]

Irish when it suits you to be, and british when it suits you. No doubt if you were visting foreign countries you would be saying you are Irish. You have one nationality what is it Not Brazil Irish or British??

(Can't speak for 'Not Brazil', but my opinions are closer to his than yours, so here goes)
I'm Irish. I was born in Ireland and spent the first 23 years of my life there. With my accent, I couldn't deny being Irish even if I wanted (which I don't). If you want to know more about what kind of an Irishman I am, I am a Northern Irishman. I am no more or less proud of this latter designation than of the former.
As an Northern Irishman, I was born into a part of the United Kingdom. Personally, that suits my political inclination, though I accept that many of my fellow Northern Irishmen and women differ: so be it - it's not worth fighting over (imo).
When it comes to sport, my chief passion is football and my favourite team is my national team, NI.
Of course, not every aspect of supporting the team is exactly how I would have it if it were down to me (I would change our anthem to something peculiarly Northern Irish, for example); however, with a moderate degree of tolerance, I am overall immensely proud of the team and its support and I would hope that with an equal degree of tolerance, all people from NI, of whatever background, could feel the same pride, should they wish to.
For those who cannot, whether they be Republicans who cannot countenance any "NI" team, or "Loyalists", for whom the team is not "British" enough, then they may support the ROI or Ingurland respectively; that must be their choice (and their loss, imo).
I am also interested in other sports. When it comes to rugby union, I am proud to follow Ireland. When I attend Lansdowne, there are certain aspects which do not meet with my entire approval. These include the flying of the Tricolour (both Officially by the IRFU and unofficially by some of the fans) and the playing of The Soldiers Song. This is because they only represent one of the two territories which go to make up the team (and it isn't mine!).
However, when the music starts, I don't see it as any great hardship just to stand up, shut up, then sit down - I'm there for the rugby, after all. (In fact, I am much more aerated by O'Sullivan's continued selection of that prat O'Gara over David Humphries, but that's by-the-by!)
When it comes to Athletics, I happily follow the GB & NI team in the Olympics (or just NI at the Commonwealth Games), though I keep an interested eye on other Irish athletes like Sonia O'Sullivan (or is she Australian these days?)
As a fan of Test Cricket, I follow the England team and will be especially interested if Ed Joyce should force his way into the team.
And during the Ryder Cup, I was rooting for Europe all the way (Big Darren in particular)

So there you have it. You may consider all this to be inconsistent, or even hypocritical - I'm not greatly bothered. But consider this: whenever anyone says to me: "You aren't Northern Irish, you're 'Irish'", my response is: "You're not 'Irish', you're European".
Which, at its logical conclusion, takes us back to when we used to write our address on our Primary School Exercise Books, starting with our townland and finishing with "The Earth", "The Solar System", "The Universe".

Oh, and to answer your question, when I'm abroad and am asked where I come from, I answer that I'm from Northern Ireland. And although it doesn't often happen, if they don't know where that is, I simply show them my Passport...
(In England, when I'm asked what part of Ireland I'm from, I usually answer: "The West". That always stumps them!;) )



"Ireland is an island 300 miles long
And 100 miles thick.
It is divided into four Provinces:
Ulster, Munster, Linfield and Celtic...":D

[EalingGreen]

my other point abuot the tricolour is that northern teams are not asked to play beneath it...why didnt you take issue with that?

as for the St Patrick's cross - that's an outdated representation is it not? is the union flag not a flag that evolved. thought so.

In football (which is what we're talking about, after all), players from the ROI are asked to play under the flag of the ROI (Tricolour) and players from NI are asked to play under the flag of NI (Stormont Banner, to give it its correct designation, i think).

I've never found this a particularly difficult concept to understand. More importantly, neither have the players, including my own favourite, Gerry Armstrong, who played football for NI under the NI flag at Windsor for many years. Previously he had played Gaelic football under the Tricolour at Croke Park in his youth. (Indeed, he will almost certainly have played GAA under the Tricolour in Belfast, as well. It didn't do him, or me, any harm, come to think of it!)

[Lionel Ritchie]

the irish and british people i have issue with are those born on the island of ireland. i could go into it but im not really sure i want to rant and it prob doesnt belong here....

This man does not speak for me -nor, I suspect, many others here.

Now can we swing back on topic and away from those determined to tell us who we are, who we're not, what constitutes Irish and what it can't include....

Thanks.

[EalingGreen]

where would someone irish stand on the occupation of ireland by britain? i think we know what side. now, where would you stand - oh wait you were the occupier., you are not irish, you are a 'brit' in ireland...


As an Irishman, I consider that Ireland would have have been a very different place had Dermot McMorrough not invited Strongbow over to Ireland to invade and occupy in the late 12th Century.
Whether it would have been a better or worse place is open to debate, but I try not to get too bothered about that, since I wasn't around then, so I don't consider I have any particular responsibility.;)

http://marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1870/history-ireland/chronology.htm

Anyhow, I do tend to take exception to the call "Brits Out", since love them dearly as I do, I don't especially wish to have to put my entire family up over here in London for more than a few days around Christmas! :D

[Billsthoughts]

I cant say I care much. Ireland is the Irish team. Northern Ireland is the Northern Irish team. would wish them both to do well to be honest. The actual politics of the situation I couldnt care less about. and I think that is the opinion of most people I know. And I would say like most people I know as well I have been looking at some of the northern Ireland results with a bit of envy lately. please god we can get our act together and both grace a tournament at some stage. now that would be progress....:)

[Paulie]

I don't know if this was posted before but it seems Northern Ireland was not Neil Lennon's first choice......

'I would love to have had the chance to play for the Republic at Lansdowne Road, it would have been great, but it never became an issue I had to think about,' he confirms in a statement that is bound to capture many a headline.

'I was playing for Crewe when the chance to play for the Northern Ireland under-21s came along and it was a great opportunity for me. It raised my profile big-time and it was a very proud moment for me every time I played for my country. I would never knock it, even though there were obviously some problems along the way.

'Jack Charlton was the Ireland manager at the time, but he never made any approaches to me, so I was honoured to represent Northern Ireland and by the time people were asking me whether I wished I was playing for the Republic it was too late. Big Jack was very good at finding players who qualified to play for Ireland back then, but he must have been off fishing the day someone called him and said Neil Lennon might be worth having a look at.

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/columns/story?id=383180&root=europe25&cc=5739

[EalingGreen]

Just on one point, the NI lads here seem to indicate that tapping up occurs and that the FAI only taps up catholic/nationalist lads. The FAI say no tapping up occurs.

So if it is happening, how do you know they're not tapping up Prod/Unionist lads? Maybe they're approached and say nothing (unless you think that only Baird/McKenna were approached on turned it down) Oh and as we're on this not labelling people with religions based on names, how do you know the leanings of those two?

Unless of course the FAI aren't tapping up players and the lads do just want to play for 'their country'

I can't say for certain that "tapping up" occurs, but it seems pretty obvious to me why neither party would wish to disclose its existence if it did occur, so proof is inevitably difficult to provide. However, the circumstantial "evidence" which I've outlined elsewhere leads me to believe this may have started in the last few years.
If I'm correct, I can see why the FAI would be reticent about approaching Prod/Unionists since not only are they less likely to be receptive, but they are more likely to blow the whistle.
However, for more substantial evidence, I've seen comments made by Chris Baird and Kieran McKenna in interviews a while back, which clearly indicated approaches (I don't have details immediately to hand), even whilst they were committed to NI.
As for "labelling" these two, Baird (who has a "Planter" surname, I think) is a former GAA player from Rasharkin, so it's safe to assume that he is from a Catholic/Nationalist background and McKenna's family lives in my part of the world, so I can confidently state this his background is also Catholic/Nationalist.
Not that I give a stuff about the background or religious or political persuasions of any NI player, just that they give 100% in the Green shirt.

Btw, in a recent interview, Chris Baird made the following comment which, as one of the Copenhagen 3000, brought a lump to my throat:

Chris also heaped praise on the ever growing GAWA, 3,000 of whom travelled to Denmark recently.

“The support over the past few years has been unbelievable,” stated Chris.

“A full house at Windsor makes as much noise as 30,000 fans and that type of support makes you want to work even harder on the pitch.

“Sometimes in a break in play at home games we (the players) just look around at the whole ground doing the ‘bouncy’ and it’s an absolutely amazing sight.

“Support like that really does make a difference and if we could make in to Euro 2008, imagine what the fans would be like then!”

Euro 2008 - I know we shouldn't dream, but what about it, eh? It would be sooooo good to see an Irish team in Austria and Switzerland, don't you think? ;)

[Merc67]

Euro 2008 - I know we shouldn't dream, but what about it, eh? It would be sooooo good to see an Irish team in Austria and Switzerland, don't you think? ;)


if there's a crown or a union flag involved, it's not an Irish team as far as i am concerned. while i dont claim to speak for my fellow Irish on here there's a hell of a lot of others who agree...

[youngirish]

Euro 2008 - I know we shouldn't dream, but what about it, eh? It would be sooooo good to see an Irish team in Austria and Switzerland, don't you think? ;)
Don't think we will qualify man to be honest sure we've had some bad results at the start of these qualifiers, against Cyprus in particular.

The Republic will still finish in a better position and with more points than the North by the end of the campaign. Of this I'm 100% sure. Their fans seem to conveniently forget the fact that they've played 3 of their last 4 games at home and will lose all the corresponding fixtures away. I predict a crashing back to reality soon enough.

The North are nowhere near the standard required to reach a final nowadays. Sorry to break the bad news.

[EalingGreen]

There's an enduring image of Willie John McBride's last game for Ireland. Some guy ran on to the field and wrapped a tricolour around his shoulders. Willie left it on, took the gesture for what it was worth and strolled off the pitch to a loud ovation.

Aye, a big man, in every respect of the word, and no-one ever represented Ireland with more pride than him. As an interesting aside, however, I'd love to witness the conversation where Merc 67 puts it to Willie John that he's no "Brit"!

I guess the response might be something similar to that which he gave in what was perhaps my favourite sporting quotation of all time.

From the Lions Tour of South Africa in 1974:

Victory assured and their unbeaten record intact, the Lions embarked on the mother of all Lions' parties on the night of the third Test in their Port Elizabeth hotel. Much furniture was splintered ("inadvertently") and many fire extinguishers were set off ("accidentally") before the hotel manager, seeing his beloved lobby disappearing under six feet of water, stormed off in search of the skipper.

He would have knocked on McBride's bedroom door except the bedroom in question had been without a door for some days after the captain, returning from a night on the Port Elizabeth tiles without a key and finding the night porter in unhelpful mode, removed said door - and door frame - "with a couple of gentle dunts".

"Mr McBride," railed the manager, "your players are wrecking my hotel."

"Are there many dead?" inquired the great man, puffing contentedly on his pipe and sitting cross-legged and naked but for his Y-fronts on top of the bed.

"I want every one of you locked up. The police are on their way."

"And tell me," puffed McBride with a proud smile as the mayhem continued unabated below, "these police of yours - will there be many of them?"

The rest of that article should give some food for thought on Irishness, Britishness, Sport and Politics generally to some of the more rabid posters here ;)

http://www.2005lions.net/misc_mcbride97.shtml

[Stuttgart88]

He must have been a Brit so if his idea of good fun is thrashing places up abroad :)

[Not Brazil]

[QUOTE=Not Brazil;563697][QUOTE=Merc67;563684]

would you be both palestinian and israeli too? this is a joke. if you are basing it simply on geography then your entitled to make such a weak argument, but the ignorance with which you are throwing the argument around makes me think of those yanks who claim ulster scots heritage:)
how can you be both an occupier and the occupied? oh no, youre not the occupied are you? ffs.
your claim is based on the patronising, superiority complex of the english (the ones who really started up this british ****, and to whom all others in the UK are inferior, really) that ireland is part of their land.
it is not, it may have been for a time, but it is not now. you are one or the other fella, though you want to be both for whatever reason...

Merc67,

I have told you clearly, and repeatedly, how I identify.

You can try to tell me what I am and what I am not all you like - you can rant about England this, Brits that all you like.

You can insult me with your "occupier" charges until the cows come home.

I know what I am - you might like that, accept that or agree with it.

But, at the end of the day, I'm proudly Irish and proudly British.

I make no apology for what I am.

[Not Brazil]

Why has this trend descended into a Northern Ireland British or Irish argument? I personally don't care if EalingGreen and Not Brazil consider themselves British - that is their right if they choose. Equally I don't understand the gripe they have against some players born in Northern ireland representing the Republic if they consequently don't see themselves as British.


I have no gripe whatsoever with young players from Northern Ireland electing to play for the Republic on account of them not seeing themselves as British.

My gripe is that they should decide who they want to play for earlier than has been the case recently.

Thousands of kids here would give their right arm to pull on a Northern Ireland shirt - to see it rejected by those who have worn it until they are 19/20 years of age irks me.

[Dodge]

Would it irk you as much if you knew they didn't want to play for your senior side but did?

[EalingGreen]

I don't know if this was posted before but it seems Northern Ireland was not Neil Lennon's first choice......
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/columns/story?id=383180&root=europe25&cc=5739

For brevity, I'll not repeat the quotation, but as an NI fan, I have absolutely no problems with what he said - he is merely saying what he feels in an honest manner.

For the record, I was not at the Norway game when a minority (my brother estimates 2-300) of the crowd booed Lennon for just having signed for Celtic.
Anyhow, that made my mind up for me that I would fly back to the next game (v the Ukraine), to show my support.
It is rarely reported that Lennon was roundly cheered by the home fans every time he touched the ball in that game.
I have no doubt that a few meatheads, who don't always attend NI matches, turned up specifically for the Norway game to have a go at Lennon. They weren't there at the Ukraine game, where the crowd was equally determined to try to reverse the damage.
Anyhow, to his credit, Lennon was to play another three matches for NI after Norway, which indicates he had shrugged it off.

Then, of course, we had the moron and the telephoned death threat which I, and most of my fellow NI fans, consider to be the worst moment ever experienced in following our team.
However, the silver lining was that it finally convinced everyone that we HAD to stand up to the knuckle-draggers in our midst, no matter how difficult. This was the catalyst for the the process whereby we are now generally recognised by open-minded observers as being a decent bunch, all things considered. (I loathe the "Best Supporters in the World" ****e, btw)
As such, the lining has now pretty much become the cloud, as Lennon generously acknowledged himself, the other day.

(Then again, some would argue that with 39 caps for the Occupied Six, Lennon was never more than a West Brit himself, anyhow...;))

[Merc67]

The rest of that article should give some food for thought on Irishness, Britishness, Sport and Politics generally to some of the more rabid posters here

im sure that wasnt for me:) but no, it didnt do that at all, though it is a good article.

notice that its the british and irish lions:) they are two different things!

as for willie mc, ive yet to meet him personally, when i do ill post the resultant 'chat' on here:)