Michael Doyle

[CraftyToePoke]

My Lloyd Bensen remark earlier probably went over peoples's heads.

Easy there now Mother Superior, I knew exactly what and who you were on about.

[Stuttgart88]

Easy there now Mother Superior, I knew exactly what and who you were on about.
I didn't think you were old enough!

[CraftyToePoke]

How much of yourself do you see in Stutts?

More than Stutts is comfortable with, evidently.

[Stuttgart88]

Careful, you'll be next.

[paul_oshea]

How much of yourself do you see in Stutts?

More than stutts sees ; )

Ye probably won't get that....

Coleman is class!

Stutts I know you personally and while you mightn't see much of him in you you still enjoy it...you definitely are quite similar his opinions are pretty spot on and well orchestrated but he goes ott sometimes to take away from his points.

He is nothing like EB tho only in that he writes a lot in one post. Eb did the same but his opinions were always very different to mine and I'd agree with towk and you generally.

[SkStu]

How much of yourself do you see in Stutts?

I actually thought Stutts had created a second account to back his own opinions up...

[paul_oshea]

Why can't I thank on mobile? Stu there's a thanks there in spirit....you must feel so special.

Towk is young though perhaps its stutts son being coerced/coax/coached/cajoled/ how many more words beginning with c can I add without actually finding the word I'm looking for.DI would have it for me by now.

[Charlie Darwin]

I actually thought Stutts had created a second account to back his own opinions up...
Nah, that's what he created the doc for :)

[SkStu]

Why can't I thank on mobile? Stu there's a thanks there in spirit....you must feel so special.

So this is how Dave Kelly must have felt after "scoring" against England... ;)


Towk is young though perhaps its stutts son being coerced/coax/coached/cajoled/ how many more words beginning with c can I add without actually finding the word I'm looking for.DI would have it for me by now.

c*ntish? ;) ;) (only messin TOWK!)

PS - Paul, did you mean groomed?

[Crosby87]

It's "Bentsen" and they lost every state other than Mass I believe. Which seems incredible now.

[geysir]

You guys have got it all wrong, Stutts is not au fait with the devious ways of internet deception. He's way too honest for that.
I should know because he's a chip from the old block, unlike ye rootless gods****s.

[Crosby87]

You are two peas in a pod with Gastric, Geysir. What happened to him?

[Charlie Darwin]

You guys have got it all wrong, Stutts is not au fait with the devious ways of internet deception. He's way too honest for that.
I should know because he's a chip from the old block, unlike ye rootless gods****s.
The endlessly naive geysir, ladies and gentlemen :)

[paul_oshea]

Good man stutts you didn't even spell his name right oh wise one :)

Stu its harder to tell on mobile if someone is being smart....so the word groomed. I hope you werent!!!

[Stuttgart88]

you definitely are quite similar his opinions are pretty spot on and well orchestrated but he goes ott sometimes to take away from his points.I've acknowledged that we often agree. The substantial point you seem to miss is the fallacious way he presents many of his key arguments. It's not being OTT, it's being disingenuous.

Thanks for the spelling critique.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

I've acknowledged that we often agree. The substantial point you seem to miss is the fallacious way he presents many of his key arguments. It's not being OTT, it's being disingenuous.

Thanks for the spelling critique.

What is fallacious? How did I twist Jack's comments in any way, shape or form?

It would be fallacious if Jack had not mentioned England - or just mentioned England in nonchalant, passing form - and I claimed that he wanted to play for England.

[Stuttgart88]

You present firm conclusions from obvious ambiguity.

[DannyInvincible]

What is fallacious? How did I twist Jack's comments in any way, shape or form?

It would be fallacious if Jack had not mentioned England - or just mentioned England in nonchalant, passing form - and I claimed that he wanted to play for England.

He's not even suggested he wants to play for England, yet you've been insisting to us that he will and that it is what he secretly intends to do. Similarly, you also tried to twist Robbie Keane's comments on accepting retirement gracefully when his international day comes to suit your own pre-configured conclusions in suggesting that he'll storm out in a huff refusing to play for us ever again if not selected. Robbie has been our most committed servant over the years with 130 caps to his name. There's very little prima donna in him when it comes to playing for Ireland.

[geysir]

TOWHK seamlessly shifts from the cynical fraudulent argument, to playing the victim.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

TOWHK seamlessly shifts from the cynical fraudulent argument, to playing the victim.

How have I played the victim? I'm not feeling sorry for myself. What on Earth gave you that conclusion?

Cynical is calling players like Sammon, McShane, Cox and Walters sh*te even when it may not be warranted. I'll admit that I am guilty of that, just like everyone else. Fraudulent, I think, is an extremely strong word to describe my opinion/argument. I also think it's rather unnecessary.

If I had ascribed quotes to Robbie Keane that never came out of his mouth, that would be fraudulent. If I had no source for said quotes, then that would also be fraudulent. As it turns out, Keane's quotes are in the public domain and reported on in several mainstream papers.

At the end of the day, it's just an opinion. Whether Keane would retire or throw a hissy fit if he was dropped is just conjecture.

But to act like what I said is so incendiary is a bit over the top.

As for Jack Grealish, there is nothing remotely ambiguous about his comments. His intentions, maybe. I never said he would declare for England because I'm not the oracle.

There is also no need for the treatise about what it means to be Irish and English. I have an uncle that has lived practically his entire life in England and plenty of English family members.

[Eminence Grise]

What is fallacious?

It's when a woman and man love each other very,very much and she xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx and then he xxxxxxxxxxxx, then she xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, before finally he xxxxxxxxxx.

Or maybe it's not Stutts getting another spelling wrong and my explanation is, well, fallacious too.;)

[Stuttgart88]

That's something Eminence Grise and TOWK have in common: each is a cunning linguist.

TOWK is playing with words in post no. 70 above. In the strict literal sense Grealish's words were clear (unless they were muttered), the intention ambiguous. But it's pure wordsmithery to suggest that a comment can be clear while its intention isn't and to argue on that basis.

[Eminence Grise]

Indeed, Stutts, but your thanks took my total to five hundred and, um, sixty-nine...

[paul_oshea]

It's when a woman and man love each other very,very much and she xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx and then he xxxxxxxxxxxx, then she xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, before finally he xxxxxxxxxx.

Or maybe it's not Stutts getting another spelling wrong and my explanation is, well, fallacious too.;)

He what exactly relaxes?..., its only her, you must read the same books or misquote or misspell just like Stutts ; )

Stutts i think you stole the cunning linguist from me.

I think Towk has the beating of everyone on here, hence the feathers and a few cages rattled, the old heads frown in disgust, a bit of that Bill.

How many goals did robbie score in so many appearances for some such club, did we get to the bottom of that bill ;) I think i know who won that one as well as our friends the rooneys.

I think Towk is using this media as a debating tool to aid his studies.

[DannyInvincible]

Towk is young though perhaps its stutts son being coerced/coax/coached/cajoled/ how many more words beginning with c can I add without actually finding the word I'm looking for.DI would have it for me by now.

I think 'cowed' must be the word you're looking for. :p

[DannyInvincible]

I think Towk has the beating of everyone on here

Ah, so that's why he doesn't need to bother with responding to half the futile counter-arguments levelled against him?

[paul_oshea]

Exactly, when one knows, one doesn't need to, secure in the knowledge of oneself.

[Charlie Darwin]

In Paul O'Shea's world, not engaging with an argument and obfuscating the issue is proof that you're so right you don't even need to back up your points.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Tbh, besides each poster's opinion, this overall debate is not especially important.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

"If I'm enjoying it with Ireland and I won't be pressured into playing for England," says Grealish. "The English FA met dad and I before this campaign started and told me where I'd be playing for them (their under 19s). We had already spoken to Noel (King) by that stage and thought, as I'd be with the under 21s, Ireland was the best place for me.


"It's hard to say what's going to happen because I'm only 18, aren't I? For the next couple of years, I want to play for Ireland. That's not saying I'm going to go back to England – just that you never know what's going to happen."

Grealish is happy playing with the U-21s as they offer him more competitive football than the England U-19s. For now he is happy to play for Ireland. His long-term future is clearly left open for interpretation.

Will someone - for the love of God - please tell me how I manipulated what he was saying?

I appreciate the comment he made on Twitter. He was hardly going to say "Yeah I'm playing for the U-21s now and I'm going to up and leave when England give me senior recognition."

I also appreciate the fact that the rules state that he is free to declare for any country he is legally obliged to.

I also appreciate the fact that cultural identity is a subject that I may have underestimated but to be completely frank I think that is utterly irrelevant in this case. Just my opinion and I am entitled to it.

Some of you really resemble a baying mob.

As for Robbie Keane... I've already said my piece on that, suffice to say that people accused me of lying about certain quotes and then I produced said quotes sourced in The Irish Independent and Guardian.

The comments are in the public domain and perfectly decipherable. We can all read whatever we want into them without losing basic courtesy.

Bottom line. Jack is ours for now, I hope it stays that way and he is entitled to change allegiances if he wants to.

Hopefully if Robbie is picked against Scotland, Germany and Poland, he can bang in the goals.

Plain as!

[Stuttgart88]

Wrt Robbie you found the quotes that everyone was aware of anyway and despite plenty of compelling counter argument about what he probably meant, most notably from Danny, you decided to interpret it in a way that suited you. You pretty clearly refused to countenance any other interpretation. That's how I remember it anyway. I also have a vague recollection of challenging you to accept a set of possible future circumstances as being the ultimate arbiter and I think, but couldn't be ar$ed to go back and check, that you decided to ignore it.

This is what Geysir refers to when he says you switch to victim mode.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

Wrt Robbie you found the quotes that everyone was aware of anyway and despite plenty of compelling counter argument about what he probably meant, most notably from Danny, you decided to interpret it in a way that suited you. You pretty clearly refused to countenance any other interpretation. That's how I remember it anyway. I also have a vague recollection of challenging you to accept a set of possible future circumstances as being the ultimate arbiter and I think, but couldn't be ar$ed to go back and check, that you decided to ignore it.

This is what Geysir refers to when he says you switch to victim mode.

But some people had to be reminded about it; and I don't know what I ever said that warranted being called "fraudulent".

Of course I am going to interpret it the way I want. That's what all of us are doing. It's a two-way street.

OK could you elaborate on that further and I will answer now.

[Stuttgart88]

The onus is on you to go back. You've ignored plenty of other stuff too.

And yes, interpret stuff as you want - we all do - but if Im engaging in a debate with someone I have the decency to consider reasonable counters. You have a habit of not doing so.

Wrt Grealish, you mainly got carried away rather than presented fraudulent argument ( that was Geysir's accusation, I accused you of using fallacy which is different). You thought Grealish's remark was disgraceful, others saw it as a fact of life in context of dual nationality.

But in the following passage it appears to me you jumped to a firm conclusion as to what he would do and where his priorities lie:


I think it's pretty obvious what himself and his brother have mentioned several times and if he had the profile of a Ross Barkley or Jack Rodwell and was playing on loan at a Championship side instead of the worst team in League One, I think we all know where his bread would be buttered.

I'd counter that we don't know, that's actually the whole point. On balance of what we know I'd agree with Geysir that he is ours to lose and I personally think we should show him a bit of extra attention. Similarly, on balance of what we know about Keane and his attitude towards playing for Ireland I'd say his "walk away" remark was more benign than you think.

I thought your use of various goal scoring stats was selective and spurious but equally I agreed with the broad thrust of your argument that Keane should not be an automatic starter, although I qualified where my rationale differed from yours.

[DannyInvincible]

Grealish is happy playing with the U-21s as they offer him more competitive football than the England U-19s. For now he is happy to play for Ireland. His long-term future is clearly left open for interpretation.

Will someone - for the love of God - please tell me how I manipulated what he was saying?

Stutts has summed it up pretty well above, but you're now misrepresenting the original gist of what you were saying. If I'm not mistaken, you attempted to portray it as if Grealish is taking us for fools, has his heart set on England and will switch at the slightest hint of a senior cap for them based purely on an ambiguous comment and the decisions that previous and unrelated England internationals of Irish heritage have made, as if we have any way of knowing for sure. Your tone was accusatory and condemnatory when there was no reason to be alarmist at all.


Some of you really resemble a baying mob.

Honestly, don't feel so insecure or threatened. Thorough debate is all good and anyone responding to you is just offering a counter-argument to your own opinion (which does often happen to be of a contentious nature). It's a discussion forum and you're more than welcome here. Nobody's out to get you.

Well, except for that Geysir fellow. He definitely has it in for you.

[paul_oshea]

Stutts you say he is ours to lose like geysir but what do the northerners say when they have players like Gibson wilson mcclean etc playing for them at underage level?

I do have to say tho towk is a breath of fresh air and anyone I know would share very similar views - generally. He has brought a smack of realism to the forum probably why he is getting dealt with a bit heavy handed....a baying mob might be a bit extreme though.

Towk do you go to home games?

[Charlie Darwin]

Stutts you say he is ours to lose like geysir but what do the northerners say when they have players like Gibson wilson mcclean etc playing for them at underage level?
I imagine they have their own equivalent of Paul O'Shea - a Paul Frazer perhaps - who remarks that such players are "wee turncoats waiting to happen".

[paul_oshea]

I wasnt asking literally cd. Even if you were just looking for an easy in to respond with that :D

[Charlie Darwin]

You set 'em up, I knock 'em down :)

Seriously, I'm not sure what 'dose of realism' you're referring to. It's hardly a surprise to anyone who's kept an eye on these things over time that players often have split loyalties. If anything, TOWK's overreaction to Grealish's comments sticks out because it's so unusual around here. When Shane Lowry opted to compete for Australia, I can't remember anybody here saying anything but good luck to him. The wee turncoat.

[paul_oshea]

No thats not what I'm getting at.

What im saying is those players deep down harbour a desire if the chance comes and they are good enough to play for ireland. So I'm asking do you think they say "he is ours to lose", I doubt it very much.

[Charlie Darwin]

I don't think it's that cut and dried either. Danny Kearns, for instance, cut his ties with Northern Ireland even though he might never be good enough to play for Ireland. Similarly, the McEleney brothers threw in their lot with Northern Ireland even though they were still in and around underage Ireland squads and are young enough to improve. I wouldn't say "he's ours to lose" but certainly I think when players come through the ranks with us they are a bit more likely to stay put than players in a similar situation at Northern Ireland. The only player who's been through the age groups that we've really "lost" to a better country is Michael Keane, and there were possibly familial pressures in there too with his brother on the England side.

[DannyInvincible]

Noel King had plans for Paddy McEleney and was on the phone asking for him to reconsider his switch to the IFA, so it's not as if they'll touch "certified dead wood" only. Not that I think there's a moral problem with players in demand legally deciding for themselves who they'd rather represent, but IFA supporters often like to try and disingenuously claim the suspect moral high ground on this, as if their association is distinct from all others in sacrificing its own self-interests through an adherence to some imagined code of virtues whereby it selects only players in which other associations have no known interest. This self-erected illusion helps validate, for them at least, their sorry indulgence in victimhood.


Stutts you say he is ours to lose like geysir but what do the northerners say when they have players like Gibson wilson mcclean etc playing for them at underage level?

Hey, not all northerners are "them", y'know. :)

Anyhow, where were we? Yes, NI fans; they bleat and moan and they play the victim. They deny responsibility and they stick their heads in the sand. Jack Grealish doesn't select himself. Noel King selects Jack Grealish.

Power of selection ultimately remains in the hands of the association. With regard to the IFA, no association need let itself be "strung along" by any eligible player, or however it is that association and its supporters like to frame the circumstances whereby a young nationalist player who grows up north of the border might end up playing in the IFA's youth squads yet still harbour ambitions of playing for Ireland. Not that the relationship between player and association is beneficial on a one-way basis only anyhow - associations also get return from the players they select - but if the IFA doubt their players' commitment, they can always ask them for clarification. If they're happy enough to continue selecting uncertain players or players who've already expressed that their ultimate aspiration would be to play for Ireland if given the opportunity, that's their prerogative. If the player lies, that's admittedly poor form. There are plenty of players in the under-age NI set-up, however, who identify with ourselves in terms of support and NI youth coaches are well aware of this. These players don't even have to lie yet the IFA are delighted to still have them available for selection, so it's a bit much for them to cry foul when these players later legally desert and can follow through on their declared intentions by virtue regulations we all knew existed in the first place.

If Grealish did come out and say he was happy to give his all for us in proud recognition of his Irish heritage but that he ultimately aspired to play for England, the land of his birth, if that opportunity ever arose, can we be certain that Noel King would stop selecting him? Would we expect Noel King to refrain from selecting him? As it stands, we know that Grealish could potentially, although seemingly unlikely, entertain the notion of playing for England if he was to no longer be enjoying playing for us at some point in the future. With that knowledge, the choice of whether or not to continue selecting him would still rest in our hands. If the choice rested with me, I'd continue in a professional manner by selecting him. If he later switched to England down the line, so be it. He's a dual national, he hasn't lied to anyone and he's been enriching our under-age set-up since the age of 14, so it's not as if it's been all take on his part. There was no obligation on my part to continue selecting him, but I did, knowledgeable of the risk. I'm happy to put my faith in Noel King.

Sorry, by the way, Mick Doyle devotees! I understand y'all must be absolutely snapping at the ignorance of the turn his thread has taken.

[SkStu]

He'll be turning in his grave Danny.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51CM19NQD0L._SY344_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

[Stuttgart88]

I think on balance Grealish is more likely to stay with us. We hold the aces. That's what I'm trying to say Paul.

I also agree with most of what TOWK says on most things. That's got nothing to do with it. He actually hasn't brought much here in the way of new opinion. People have been frustrated by Keane for years. There was a couple of years of hysteria over James McCarthy. His views on dropping Keane or being upset with joint heritage footballers not being able to recite Ulysses in Irish is hardly revolutionary.

It's his belligerent and antagonistic manner that bugs me. If you read any of my posts either criticising him, thanking him or joining in with him you'll realise that. If you think bad manners is a breath of fresh air it says more about you than me.

For ages now you've been flying some flag or other from some higher place about realism. You should put it down.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

Stutts you say he is ours to lose like geysir but what do the northerners say when they have players like Gibson wilson mcclean etc playing for them at underage level?

I do have to say tho towk is a breath of fresh air and anyone I know would share very similar views - generally. He has brought a smack of realism to the forum probably why he is getting dealt with a bit heavy handed....a baying mob might be a bit extreme though.

Towk do you go to home games?

Yes, I go to the majority of home games, work and college allowing.

I was going to go to Euro 2012 with my brother and his mates but I started going out with a girl I liked in late May so I decided to stay home. That decision paid off in spades as I was subsequently dumped on my birthday - the day of the first semi-final.

...and that's what you get for letting your heart lead your head.

[Crosby87]

Stutts will make you a profile on Match.com for a small price. (Interesting trades considered.) Just tell him all your likes/dislikes, hobbies and earning potential. The only problem is once he is done adding and subtracting, sometimes another foot.ie member comes up as your perfect match. (Not that there is anything wrong with that.)

[dr_peepee]

I was going to go to Euro 2012 with my brother and his mates but I started going out with a girl I liked in late May so I decided to stay home. That decision paid off in spades as I was subsequently dumped on my birthday - the day of the first semi-final.

...and that's what you get for letting your heart lead your head.

Ok... Adrian Mole!!! That's a bit more than what we're used to here.

I like the impact you've had on the forum though.

[Kingdom]

Pages 1-3 were absolute comedy, and should go down in foot.ie folklore.

[tetsujin1979]

Stutts will make you a profile on Match.com for a small price. (Interesting trades considered.) Just tell him all your likes/dislikes, hobbies and earning potential. The only problem is once he is done adding and subtracting, sometimes another foot.ie member comes up as your perfect match. (Not that there is anything wrong with that.)
this is the guy you need to talk about that: http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2014/01/how-to-hack-okcupid/

[paul_oshea]

Yes, I go to the majority of home games, work and college allowing.

I was going to go to Euro 2012 with my brother and his mates but I started going out with a girl I liked in late May so I decided to stay home. That decision paid off in spades as I was subsequently dumped on my birthday - the day of the first semi-final.

...and that's what you get for letting your heart lead your head.



I assumed, gathered so actually, you make sense on most things, and a view shared by most who go to games. Your(Ireland international) football should lead your head and your heart, never a woman or anything else, ah the innocence and naivety of youth.

No Stutts, its not, his views are similar to SksStu, me and you and thats about it. Bad manners on a bloody forum, would ye get a life.

Well said peepee. Even if you are still wrong about how contracting works :P

[Charlie Darwin]

Paul wheeling out the old "most people who go to games" chestnut again. Classic stuff.