View Full Version : FAI Seeking New League Member
Poor Student
02/10/2006, 1:26 PM
No ****ing way should it be. Waterford and Bray have been down right awful this year and now they now they don’t have to improve we’re going to see disgraceful mismatches. At least one club must be relegated
One of them will be subjected to participating in possibly the most useless tie in the history of football, the playoff to decide who is ranked 12th or 14th in this season's league rankings.
pineapple stu
02/10/2006, 1:28 PM
According to today's papers it looks like the 11 in the premier and the winners of the first (Rovers or Galway) will make up the new premier. Which is the way it should be.
Magicme you know I speak the truth!
KOH
I assume Waterford/Bray would still play-off with Rovers/Galway/Dundalk?
I'd be sceptical about that being the case, mainly for Conor H's reasons. Though meedless to say, it makes sense. It's unfortunate that Bray and Waterford were so poor in the year Dublin City went broke and took the automatic relegation spot, but you can't relegate teams because they're rubbish if they did finish above teh required number of teams in the league.
NY Hoop
02/10/2006, 1:32 PM
Dont think there's any playoffs this year. I know its not right that WUFC and Bray stay up if they are that awful but its not based on on pitch performances unfortunately.
No chance of more than one First Division club going up IMO.
KOH
dcfcsteve
02/10/2006, 1:37 PM
broadly agreed about the liklyhood, I just heard a whisper they were considering applying especially now Dongal Celtic are in the Premier and will take from their already poor fanbase.
if people don't want to watch Cliftonville in the IL, why would they want to watch them in the EL ? I suspect the small unsavoury element within the Cliftonville support doesn't help them attract crowds (and would be a big part in my view on whether or not I personally wanted them in the EL).
Also - Donegal Celtic and Cliftonville cater to different parts of the City, abnd Cliftonville have been established for much much longer. I can't see many 'ville fans past, present, or future deciding to suppoort Donegal Celtic instead now. So there shouldn't really be any lap-over.
but its silly to argue them out and in the same post say how good DCFC were for the league. the history is different but the principle is the same
What principle ?? Derry City were a defunct Irish club located on the border who's own association consistently refused to let them back in. Hence - the only option they had was to look to south of the border for a return to senior football.
Cliftonville, meanwhile, are an existing club located deep inside Northern Ireland and who not only have no real problems with their association, but even have high level representatiion within that organisation (Jim Boyce, IFA President). Where is the similarity, let alone the principle, in all of that ?!? :confused:
I don't understand why people still beive that the winner of the first division will automatically get in the premier. It'll help a clubs cause to be sure, but remember that this year's ranking are based not just on the league but on the cup too, meaning that Rovers will be ranked miles ahead of Dundalk and especially Dundalk regardless of what they do for the rest of the season. In any case Rovers have a far better 4 year record than either. The only way Rovers won't go up is if they are heavily punished for/totally f-up off the filed matters.
Galway are the ones who most need to win the division, as Dundalk just haven't a hope of going up and Rovers are up anyway.
And according to the FAI document there will certainly be 12 in the premier next year.
Ronnie
02/10/2006, 1:55 PM
And if no club joins the First does that mean a 9 team division, playing 32 games?
After all that is known about the difficulty, would strong junior clubs really want to risk it?
Do you or anyone else have the details of this so? I've never heard of anything beyond the sketchiest outline of where the marks were going when related to these criteria. Why do the clubs need to present their case anyway, should the FAI not be aware of the situation in each club without allowing them to stand up and exaggerate their plans or their ability to execute those plans? Will there be any check on what the clubs present or will another club like Dublin City be allowed to get away with claiming that they'll average crowds of 1500 at their home matches?
The clubs all have details.
For clubs towards the bottom of the Premier or the top of the First, it is by no means
to say otherwise is akin to saying that a student sitting their leaving cert knows what they'll be doing next year. Yes there's a bunch that is fairly sure they're going to get the points they want, and there's a bunch that realise they haven't a hope in hell of getting into medicine, but there are a lot out there who will be on the verge of getting the points they need, but could equally end up repeating.
At the moment there are quite a few clubs in this position, and the lack of any crystal clear guidelines does not inspire confidence in the process. It is non-transparent and the (justifiable) worry is that the FAI will tailor the marking scheme to cherry-pick their preferred clubs. The point that the WUFC rep was making is that at the moment, the club has no idea what division they are going to be in next year. IMO that is a completely valid statement to make and it makes it very difficult to attempt to plan for next season (players, contracts etc) when nobody knows whether we'll be travelling to Derry or Ballybofey, (or both).
If thats all the Waterford rep said then of course its true, but if you accept the principle of clubs being selected on grounds other than on the field as the new proposals......propose then theres not much else can be done. The non football criteria are fairly specific from what I've heard, adn while some of the points are allocated for plans - strategic plans, business plans etc which clubs should have - they will have to be realistic, which is why clubs have to come down for 1 hour sessions and present and defend them.
And it'll end up with the Waterford rep showing a picture he drew of of himself in the nude with a dog, claimed to have misunderstood what was going on ) :p
Already done that gag in the original post Ash! ;)
harps1954
02/10/2006, 3:24 PM
I don't understand why people still beive that the winner of the first division will automatically get in the premier. It'll help a clubs cause to be sure, but remember that this year's ranking are based not just on the league but on the cup too, meaning that Rovers will be ranked miles ahead of Dundalk and especially Dundalk regardless of what they do for the rest of the season. In any case Rovers have a far better 4 year record than either. The only way Rovers won't go up is if they are heavily punished for/totally f-up off the filed matters.
Galway are the ones who most need to win the division, as Dundalk just haven't a hope of going up and Rovers are up anyway.
And according to the FAI document there will certainly be 12 in the premier next year.
Exactly right Galwayharps. Galway really do need to win the First Division to have a better chance of getting into the top 12. Galway fans are really fooling themselves if they think that themselves and Rovers will be in the Premier next season no matter what.
Anyway, based on the FAI's Criteria of scoring 500 points "on the pitch", this is how the 21 clubs would feature if the season was brought to a halt today. This is just a snapshot taken as of today. However, if Galway failed to win the First Division, they would actually fall to 14th position. There is still 500 points to play for "off the pitch" which is why the presentations that each club make to the IAG is still vitally important.
Finally, I think it is fair to say that the top 8 clubs on the table below are "almost certain" to form part of the new Premier Division next season, with UCD, Waterford and Sligo all looking "fairly certain" at the moment. I think it is also fair to say that the clubs in positions 16-21 are "almost certain" to be part of the First Division next season. That means, that one of the clubs in positions 12-15 at present will get the last place on offer. That means if Bray finish last in the Premier and Galway won the first this season, Galway will have to score 24 points (out of 500) more than Bray in the "off the field" criteria to make the last place. I'm not so sure they will. Bray's infastructure is pretty good (as is Galways), their licensing record is good (as is Galways), they never seem to have any financial problems (nor do Galway), so it is difficult to see where Galway will make up the points. One thing is for sure, if Galway don't win the First Division, I think the 12 teams in the new Premier next season will as they are listed below. By the way, the figures in brackets are each teams scores if the season were to end today. Galway's early exits in each Cup compeition could come back to haunt them while I don't think Dundalk have any chance of being in the Premier next year - even if they won the First Division.
1 Shelbourne (493)
2 Cork City (467)
3 Derry City (460)
4 Bohmians (443)
5 Longford Town (437)
6 Drogheda United (430)
7 St. Patrick's Athletic (407)
8 Shamrock Rovers (370)
9 UCD (363)
10 Waterford United (353)
11 Sligo Rovers (340)
12 Bray Wanderers (313)
13 Galway United (290)
14 Finn Harps (283)
15 Dundalk (257)
16 Cobh Ramblers (250)
17 Limerick (247)
18 Kildare County (240)
19 Kilkenny City (187)
20 Athlone Town (187)
21 Monaghan United (183)
dcfcsteve
02/10/2006, 3:53 PM
How many points for a win and how many for a draw in that system - is it the same as normal competiiton (i.e. 3 and 1) ?
Do Cup replays count the drawn leg previously ?
How many points for a win and how many for a draw in that system - is it the same as normal competiiton (i.e. 3 and 1) ?
Do Cup replays count the drawn leg previously ?
I think this is based on the FAI scoring system as outlined in their documentation on the merger. There's 200 points for this season and 300 for the previous 4 years.
dcfcsteve
02/10/2006, 4:01 PM
I think this is based on the FAI scoring system as outlined in their documentation on the merger. There's 200 points for this season and 300 for the previous 4 years.
So how are the 200 points for this season comprised ? I'm trying to see how far we could/might get in that table with the remaining league and Cup games. Obviously not a life or death issue for City, but I'm interested in knowing none-the-less.
Student Mullet
02/10/2006, 4:17 PM
So how are the 200 points for this season comprised ? I'm trying to see how far we could/might get in that table with the remaining league and Cup games. Obviously not a life or death issue for City, but I'm interested in knowing none-the-less.It's so many points for each league position and so many for each round of the cup, league cup and european cups. The full document is on the FAI website.
Conor H
02/10/2006, 4:19 PM
Exactly right Galwayharps. Galway really do need to win the First Division to have a better chance of getting into the top 12. Galway fans are really fooling themselves if they think that themselves and Rovers will be in the Premier next season no matter what.
Anyway, based on the FAI's Criteria of scoring 500 points "on the pitch", this is how the 21 clubs would feature if the season was brought to a halt today. This is just a snapshot taken as of today. However, if Galway failed to win the First Division, they would actually fall to 14th position. There is still 500 points to play for "off the pitch" which is why the presentations that each club make to the IAG is still vitally important.
Finally, I think it is fair to say that the top 8 clubs on the table below are "almost certain" to form part of the new Premier Division next season, with UCD, Waterford and Sligo all looking "fairly certain" at the moment. I think it is also fair to say that the clubs in positions 16-21 are "almost certain" to be part of the First Division next season. That means, that one of the clubs in positions 12-15 at present will get the last place on offer. That means if Bray finish last in the Premier and Galway won the first this season, Galway will have to score 24 points (out of 500) more than Bray in the "off the field" criteria to make the last place. I'm not so sure they will. Bray's infastructure is pretty good (as is Galways), their licensing record is good (as is Galways), they never seem to have any financial problems (nor do Galway), so it is difficult to see where Galway will make up the points. One thing is for sure, if Galway don't win the First Division, I think the 12 teams in the new Premier next season will as they are listed below. By the way, the figures in brackets are each teams scores if the season were to end today. Galway's early exits in each Cup compeition could come back to haunt them while I don't think Dundalk have any chance of being in the Premier next year - even if they won the First Division.
1 Shelbourne (493)
2 Cork City (467)
3 Derry City (460)
4 Bohmians (443)
5 Longford Town (437)
6 Drogheda United (430)
7 St. Patrick's Athletic (407)
8 Shamrock Rovers (370)
9 UCD (363)
10 Waterford United (353)
11 Sligo Rovers (340)
12 Bray Wanderers (313)
13 Galway United (290)
14 Finn Harps (283)
15 Dundalk (257)
16 Cobh Ramblers (250)
17 Limerick (247)
18 Kildare County (240)
19 Kilkenny City (187)
20 Athlone Town (187)
21 Monaghan United (183)
Ya but your whole argument is still only 50% of the criteria for next year's elite.If we come in the top 2 it should hopefully be good enough because our off the field structure etc is 2nd to none.So if we win the league we will definitely be in the premier next year.
Buller
02/10/2006, 4:21 PM
Ya but your whole argument is still only 50% of the criteria for next year's elite.If we come in the top 2 it should hopefully be good enough because our off the field structure etc is 2nd to none.So if we win the league we will definitely be in the premier next year.
So what happens when you come 2nd?! :D
Conor H
02/10/2006, 4:23 PM
Didn't i say if we come in the top 2?;)
Irrelevant anyway beacuse we are the best and will win the league.:)
Poor Student
02/10/2006, 4:37 PM
This is what makes me nervous. There's only 100 points seperating UCD in 9th and Dundalk in 15th. I don't have very much faith in the off field criteria. There's a potential 500 points to win and claw back that 100 point deficit.
Ya but your whole argument is still only 50% of the criteria for next year's elite.If we come in the top 2 it should hopefully be good enough because our off the field structure etc is 2nd to none..
Honest question, how is better than Bray's, UCD's or Waterford's?
Poor Student
02/10/2006, 5:06 PM
http://www.fai.ie/merger/pdf/eircomLeague-proposals.pdf
Just been reading over the off field stuff again. Under infrastructure it mentions stadium stuff and then just "plans re infrastructure development etc" with that exact punctuation. What the heck does that mean?
As I say, the stuff is very ambiguous. Will UCD be awarded points for the soon to be demolished Belfield Park or the undeveloped Belfield Bowl or the new Bowl plans? Does being the only club in Dun Laoighre/Rathdown area give us one of the most favourable demographic situations in the country or are we considered bad for sharing the city with 4/5 clubs?
passerrby
02/10/2006, 5:59 PM
I think the date is 12th dec for clubs to be notified , I still believe that the problem is not this year but when the league has to drop to 10 teams will it be the bottem team our the team with the lowest points
Conor H
02/10/2006, 6:10 PM
Honest question, how is better than Bray's, UCD's or Waterford's?
Well as it stands Terryland is a apt compact ground.However work is soon to begin on a new all seater stand across from the current one.That would quite easily make it better than the RSC and the Carlisle Grounds.
Our Marketing team are constantly coming up with new innovative ideas to publicise UTD and our website has just been revamped.
The board is also attracting some of the wealthiest Business men in Galway to invest in UTD reducing our debt to a significant low.
We weren't highlighted by Genesis for no reason.FAO-UCD fans please please don't turn this into another debate!Im aware we invited genesis down.
Well as it stands Terryland is a apt compact ground.However work is soon to begin on a new all seater stand across from the current one.That would quite easily make it better than the RSC and the Carlisle Grounds.
Our Marketing team are constantly coming up with new innovative ideas to publicise UTD and our website has just been revamped.
The board is also attracting some of the wealthiest Business men in Galway to invest in UTD reducing our debt to a significant low.
We weren't highlighted by Genesis for no reason.FAO-UCD fans please please don't turn this into another debate!Im aware we invited genesis down.
As it stands the Carlisle grounds is better than Terryland and if you're going to get promoted on a website...
Student Mullet
02/10/2006, 6:29 PM
As it stands the Carlisle grounds is better than Terryland and if you're going to get promoted on a website...... or for your debt being lower than it used to be...
gufcfan
02/10/2006, 6:43 PM
Mayo or Kerry get my vote.
Would be interesting to see would they be able to gather enough support
CharlesThompson
02/10/2006, 7:07 PM
That can't be wright.
I just love this quote! It's SO wrong yet,... so write! :)
Battery Rover
02/10/2006, 9:11 PM
I think the date is 12th dec for clubs to be notified , I still believe that the problem is not this year but when the league has to drop to 10 teams will it be the bottem team our the team with the lowest points
Think you have a valid point there. I think it will be the lowest points ranked teams. Have also heard a bit of a story saying that Rovers probably have to win the 1st to get into the new top division.
So for this season I think what is in the premier this year will stay and the winner of the 1st will make up the 12. Just based this on what I have heard.
Conor H
02/10/2006, 10:27 PM
As it stands the Carlisle grounds is better than Terryland and if you're going to get promoted on a website...
When was the last time in Terryland.Stupid comment about the website.:rolleyes:
holidaysong
02/10/2006, 10:39 PM
This is what makes me nervous. There's only 100 points seperating UCD in 9th and Dundalk in 15th. I don't have very much faith in the off field criteria. There's a potential 500 points to win and claw back that 100 point deficit.
That's what makes me optimistic. If we don't come top then fair enough but if we win the division and don't get invited to the big party then I'll be gutted.
Dundalk, Galway and Rovers to go up. Waterford and Bray to go down. I don't think many could complain about that.
pineapple stu
02/10/2006, 10:46 PM
Stupid comment about the website.:rolleyes:
You brought the website up.
Dodge
02/10/2006, 11:00 PM
When was the last time in Terryland.Stupid comment about the website.:rolleyes:
Last year, and you brought it up...
CollegeTillIDie
03/10/2006, 5:46 AM
Given the financial plight of some of the so-called bigger clubs , who have struggled to pay player's wages this season, it's more likely there may only 20 clubs in the League next season, or maybe even fewer still........
Conor H
03/10/2006, 6:56 AM
Last year, and you brought it up...
ya i did as a certain element of criteria which will aid our endeavours in getting into the elite.You then said "if your going to go up on a website".-Stupid Comment there.
ifk101
03/10/2006, 7:22 AM
Given the financial plight of some of the so-called bigger clubs , who have struggled to pay player's wages this season .....
Can you highlight one LOI season where this hasn't been the case? My own personal view is that the competence levels of chairmen and administrative staff at the various league clubs dictate that a financial crisis is needed here and there for anything to done (correctly).
dcfcsteve
03/10/2006, 8:23 AM
Given the financial plight of some of the so-called bigger clubs , who have struggled to pay player's wages this season, it's more likely there may only 20 clubs in the League next season, or maybe even fewer still........
Apart from Shels (and I'm not convinced they'll go pop) who else are you suggesting could be likely to go belly-up between now and next season ?
There's a huge difference between being in financial trouble, and actually going out of existence.
Poor Student
03/10/2006, 8:54 AM
Can you highlight one LOI season where this hasn't been the case?
UCD for one.
A lot of people are saying "If such and such wins the 1st Division it's a disgrace we won't get promoted". If the process is followed to the letter then the difference between first and second place in the 1st Division this season should have a negligable impact.
Have the clubs been given a more detailed breakdown of the criteria than the wishey washey stuff that we see from the website? What's a preferable governance structure for example?
ifk101
03/10/2006, 10:00 AM
UCD for one.
A lot of people are saying "If such and such wins the 1st Division it's a disgrace we won't get promoted". If the process is followed to the letter then the difference between first and second place in the 1st Division this season should have a negligable impact.
Have the clubs been given a more detailed breakdown of the criteria than the wishey washey stuff that we see from the website? What's a preferable governance structure for example?
Not talking about one particular club but one particular season when there hasn't been a club facing a financial disaster. Financial crisis and the like are all too commonplace in the league and, looking from the outside-in, clubs seem to be need them to get anything done.
Just as a matter of interest, is UCD football club a separate entity from the college? And if not, would UCD football club be able to support itself as a separate entity?
Preferable governance structure is, as you point out, very subjective - if that's what you mean by "the wishey washey stuff" :-)
Poor Student
03/10/2006, 10:05 AM
Just as a matter of interest, is UCD football club a separate entity from the college? And if not, would UCD football club be able to support itself as a separate entity?
It's officially a college society I think. It's basically self sustaining though. It's responsible for raising its own funds and contrary to popular belief UCD AFC pays the college fees for the scholarship players, not the tax payers.
Preferable governance structure is, as you point out, very subjective - if that's what you mean by "the wishey washey stuff" :-)
Well the term is just "governance structure" but I asked what do they consider preferable? That's the kind of subjective ambiguous or "wishey washey" stuff I'm on about.
Have the clubs been given a more detailed breakdown of the criteria than the wishey washey stuff that we see from the website? What's a preferable governance structure for example?
Yes the clubs have.
They were given it at a seminar on September 7th and now have till the end of October to get their information together to demonstrate how they satisfy the various crtieria.
ifk101
03/10/2006, 10:26 AM
It's officially a college society I think. It's basically self sustaining though. It's responsible for raising its own funds and contrary to popular belief UCD AFC pays the college fees for the scholarship players, not the tax payers.
Well the term is just "governance structure" but I asked what do they consider preferable? That's the kind of subjective ambiguous or "wishey washey" stuff I'm on about.
Corporate governance is by definition wishey-washey. You could probably ask ten experts in the field of corporate governance and get ten different definitions. I think what the FAI is suggesting is that accountable and transparent structures need to be put in place to avoid clubs going bust. For instance, you and many other supporters of other league clubs do not know the true financial picture of your club. I'd be surprise that the football club, if it is classified as a society, doesn't get a share of society funding that is allocated by the college each year. I doubt also that ground maintenance is paid by the club but rather by the college, or that the club pays rent to the college for use of Belfield Pk.
BohsFans
03/10/2006, 10:29 AM
contrary to popular belief UCD AFC pays the college fees for the scholarship players, not the tax payers.
where the hell do they find that money?
Poor Student
03/10/2006, 10:35 AM
where the hell do they find that money?
Sponsorship, gate receipts, half time draw tickets, superleague fees, transfer fees (I think Alan Cawley, Pat Sullivan and Robbie Martin must have all gone for €50k combined), tv money, prize money, there's an annual golf event and dinner to raise money for the scholarship fund too.
UCD run a tight ship, we only spend what we have, hence no large transfer fees, wages and trophies. Players have no trouble being paid and we're bang up to date with the revenue too.
Magicme
03/10/2006, 10:41 AM
On the mention of scholarships, how is Ger O'Callaghan settling in? Has he played for you yet? He's a good kid & hope he does well.
Kingdom
03/10/2006, 10:45 AM
Sponsorship, gate receipts, half time draw tickets, superleague fees, transfer fees (I think Alan Cawley, Pat Sullivan and Robbie Martin must have all gone for €50k combined), tv money, prize money, there's an annual golf event and dinner to raise money for the scholarship fund too.
UCD run a tight ship, we only spend what we have, hence no large transfer fees, wages and trophies. Players have no trouble being paid and we're bang up to date with the revenue too.
I presume so the players are part-time. Any ideas what the average wage at UCD is?
The Stars
03/10/2006, 10:45 AM
UCD run a tight ship, we only spend what we have, hence no large transfer fees, wages and trophies. Players have no trouble being paid and we're bang up to date with the revenue too.
no large transfer fees....Ye didnt have to pay a penny when ye took John Gaffney from us a few seasons ago.He was a great player but he returned to Sligo as if he never played football before in his life....thanks UCD;)
BohsFans
03/10/2006, 10:49 AM
Sponsorship, gate receipts, half time draw tickets, superleague fees, transfer fees (I think Alan Cawley, Pat Sullivan and Robbie Martin must have all gone for €50k combined), tv money, prize money, there's an annual golf event and dinner to raise money for the scholarship fund too.
UCD run a tight ship, we only spend what we have, hence no large transfer fees, wages and trophies. Players have no trouble being paid and we're bang up to date with the revenue too.
So your paying players + the majority of your squads college fees, which is €2-3,000 a pop?
Dassa
03/10/2006, 10:51 AM
Im sorry to ask but how does the club system work in the republic below the 1st division, up here we have 3 leagues then its regionalised does regionalisation of the league happen in ROI. Is there any reasonably big clubs ie club history that play in these leagues.
dcfcsteve
03/10/2006, 10:54 AM
Sponsorship, gate receipts, half time draw tickets, superleague fees, transfer fees (I think Alan Cawley, Pat Sullivan and Robbie Martin must have all gone for €50k combined), tv money, prize money, there's an annual golf event and dinner to raise money for the scholarship fund too.
UCD run a tight ship, we only spend what we have, hence no large transfer fees, wages and trophies. Players have no trouble being paid and we're bang up to date with the revenue too.
If UCD are treated like any other college course/school by having to pay for their own scholars, does that mean they're also treated the same as any other college school/course* in terms of not having to pay for the use/upkeep of their facilities ? Do UCD also receive a grant from the college, like oher courses/schools ? If so - scholarships would be more than possible due to reduced costs elsewhere.
*except those few colleges that have gone mad on the cost-centred accounting.
Poor Student
03/10/2006, 11:00 AM
Dunno what the standard wage at UCD is. I think scholarship players get €100-200 a week. Every player either has another job or is scholarship so they're all part time. They train 3 times a week I think.
Steve, I'm confused by your questions. Do you mean UCD as in the club or the college? I'm not sure who pays for the upkeep of the stadium. UCD will very soon move into the Belfield Bowl stadium at the other end of the campus to share with the rugby club. I don't know if the clubs maintain it or the Department of Sport (in UCD) in general or what.
Poor Student
03/10/2006, 11:02 AM
Im sorry to ask but how does the club system work in the republic below the 1st division, up here we have 3 leagues then its regionalised does regionalisation of the league happen in ROI. Is there any reasonably big clubs ie club history that play in these leagues.
The LOI does not link directly into the pyramid below the First Division. Relegation out of the league can only happen by committee vote.
ifk101
03/10/2006, 11:06 AM
It could be argued that UCD has an unfair advantage over other LOI clubs in that scholarships are tax exempt.
Poor Student
03/10/2006, 11:08 AM
It could be argued that UCD has an unfair advantage over other LOI clubs in that scholarships are tax exempt.
Waterford has a link up with WIT. I think Cork have a link up with UCC? Someone else said Bohs have a linkup with DCU. Nothing stopping other clubs from availing of a scholarship scheme.
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