Bertie's Money [Archive] - Page 2

wws

27/09/2006, 1:26 PM

havent read the whole thread but did anyone else notice how phoney the "holding back the tears" bit was ?!?!?!

talk about contrived

I could just see it now - Mara, Bunny Carr, Terry Prone all surrounding the g0b****e and saying - "if he asks any awkward questions - play the seperation card - and you gotta sell it - ure trembling hand and attempt at tears will save you!"

even at that it looked utterly unconvincing - Ahern hasnt a sincere bone in his body!

pete

27/09/2006, 1:29 PM

I only came into half way through at 9pm but my first thought was "...is he crying...?"

:rolleyes:

I could just see it now - Mara, Bunny Carr, Terry Prone all surrounding the g0b****e and saying - "if he asks any awkward questions - play the seperation card - and you gotta sell it - ure trembling hand and attempt at tears will save you!"

I suppose that explains what he been doing over the weekend...

Those non-stick teflon pans are great but once the first bit of the teflon scratches off not much use left in them... :o

Lionel Ritchie

27/09/2006, 2:59 PM

Just watching him on Oireachtas.ie and he's trying to eat time repeating ad nauseum the allegations he's had to fend from the mahon tribunal.

repeating his assertion that these are loans and that there's interest due on them.

First

27/09/2006, 5:49 PM

[QUOTE=drinkfeckarse;541134]Why would a leading politician need a "loan" to cover his separation costs?? He was hardly skint.....

I take it you havent gone throgh the separtion/ divorce then. You realise how quickly you can become skint.

Kingdom

27/09/2006, 6:38 PM

My mouse slipped and I voted loan instead of gift by mistake. Can someone change it please? :o

Believe it or not I did something similar. Used the shift and space bar too quickly. I did mean to choose gift. Can this be changed please mods?
Ta

Student Mullet

27/09/2006, 6:44 PM

I voted gift because a loan that you don't have to pay back is clearly a gift.

More important though is what the tax law says. If he broke the tax law he has to go, without any question. The tax person on primetime last night said that there wouldn't be any tax due and Bertie said the same so maybe that's true. If he didn't break the law, then the opposition is on much weaker ground.

Noelys Guitar

27/09/2006, 9:23 PM

You couldn't make this stuff up. For those old enough it sounds like a corrupt Camberwick Green. Windy Miller, Mickey the Baker and now Paddy the Plasterer. Not forgetting Bertie the Bluffer!

Ash

28/09/2006, 8:23 AM

Saw Charlie Chawke on the news the other day saying it was a loan and
Bertie offered to pay it back many times but he refused. When the news
reporter suggested that that was in essence a gift he denied it as Bertie
offered to pay it back, so it was a loan in his mind.
That was the 1st time I've ever seen this Chawke guy and he seems a
proper tool. Abeit a rich proper tool !!!

He then went on to say if Bertie wanted to pay it back now he'd take it.
I suppose that would get around the whole loan/gift. I think it was �2,500 punts

pete

28/09/2006, 9:40 AM

gift –noun
1. something given voluntarily without payment in return, as to show favor toward someone, honor an occasion, or make a gesture of assistance; present.

loan -noun
2. something lent or furnished on condition of being returned, esp. a sum of money lent at interest: a $1000 loan at 10 percent interest.

We now have a Taoiseach who doesn't understand the different between a loan and a gift & a person who when Minister for Finance either was unaware of tax law or broke that law.

:rolleyes:

(If anyone wants their vote changed PM me...)

bennocelt

28/09/2006, 10:45 AM

My mouse slipped and I voted loan instead of gift by mistake. Can someone change it please? :o

fuuny, i made that same mistake!:confused:

BohsPartisan

28/09/2006, 10:53 AM

Maybe Bertie's mouse slipped too. He ment to apply for a loan but he clicked gift??? :D

Dodge

28/09/2006, 10:55 AM

As many mistakes here as Bertie made ffs...

Student Mullet

28/09/2006, 11:34 AM

We now have a Taoiseach who doesn't understand the different between a loan and a gift & a person who when Minister for Finance either was unaware of tax law or broke that law.

:rolleyes:
The problem I have with that pete is that the definition of a gift might well be different in the tax law than in a dictionary.

The only tax expert I've seen on the TV is the woman on Prime Time and she said that Bertie hadn't broken the law. Also, we can be pretty sure that the opposition politicians are combing through the tax laws to pin one on him. Since they haven't managed yet it's possible that Bertie is innocent of breaking the law and only guilty of being an idiot.

pete

28/09/2006, 12:13 PM

The only tax expert I've seen on the TV is the woman on Prime Time and she said that Bertie hadn't broken the law. Also, we can be pretty sure that the opposition politicians are combing through the tax laws to pin one on him. Since they haven't managed yet it's possible that Bertie is innocent of breaking the law and only guilty of being an idiot.

If that is true then out tax laws are stupid. I wouldn't expect much else from the Revenue Commissioners who have proven to be completely inept at collecting taxes off politicians in the past.

Surely if Bertie gets away with this excuse every bent politician can claim those bribes were just "loans" that they had no intention of repaying. Did lawlor or Burke use that excuse too?

:rolleyes:

Macy

28/09/2006, 12:20 PM

Surely if Bertie gets away with this excuse every bent politician can claim those bribes were just "loans" that they had no intention of repaying. Did lawlor or Burke use that excuse too?
I don't know about here, but certainly loans that have subsequently been written off have been a favoured method by New Labour in the UK to get around their donation laws. Wouldn't be surprised if that method was used here too, and you can have no doubt if there's a loophole FF would've found it.

Actually, didn't Lowry actually try and claim that, and was told by Bertie himself to produce the documentation to prove it was a loan and that he intended to repay it?

pete

28/09/2006, 1:37 PM

I am surprised other political parties have not made much of the admission that Bertie appointed people to state bodies because they were friends. Then again shows what the rest of them would be doing too.

Seems like the opposition will now go after him based on his story that received money for public speaking that he lodged in his personal bank account. Reading today in the IT & they saying eh said he did not have a personal bank account during his separation - where did his wages get lodged? :confused:

Suppose the problem with lying to hide something is that hard to stop the lies then...

Schumi

28/09/2006, 1:38 PM

Strabane_Harp

28/09/2006, 1:57 PM

Can we get a poll on whether Bertie Ahern should resign as either Taoiseach or as Head of Fianna Fail?

bearing in mind him resigning doesnt necessarily mean an election, as the next Fianna Fail leader could lead the same government.

Macy

28/09/2006, 2:00 PM

I am surprised other political parties have not made much of the admission that Bertie appointed people to state bodies because they were friends. Then again shows what the rest of them would be doing too.
It's one thing doing it, as all parties do when in Government*, quite another to use it as some sort of defence. I mean the others can say the best man for the job in their opinion, rather than sure he likes a pint in Fagan's give him the job.

*although not so many as sneaky to appoint people after the Dail has risen as happened in 2002

Anto McC

28/09/2006, 4:30 PM

Not at all!

pete

28/09/2006, 5:16 PM

Can we get a poll on whether Bertie Ahern should resign as either Taoiseach or as Head of Fianna Fail?

Surely if he resigned as Taoiseach he would resign as FF leader? If he only resigned as Taoiseach would need new election.

Strabane_Harp

28/09/2006, 5:35 PM

no uve misunderstood me.

If he steps down as Taoiseach and Fianna Fail leader, it wont lead to a general election. The new Leader of Fianna Fail could continue on in Coalition with Satan, sorry i mean the PD's :p

pineapple stu

28/09/2006, 10:05 PM

The problem I have with that pete is that the definition of a gift might well be different in the tax law than in a dictionary.
I'd need a tax book in front of me to answer that fully (and obviously spend more time answering you and thereby charging you more), but there is Gift Tax (Capital Acquisitions Tax), so it doesn't necessarily qualify as income, which would be taxed at a higher rate. 1993 CAT rates are on the Revenue site (http://www.revenue.ie/index.htm?/revguide/capitalacquisitionstax.htm). However, it would still have to be declared and returned, whch this appears not to have been (I'm basing that on the fact that if it had been declared, someone would have said it). There's penalties for not declaring information on tax returns.

I don't think the exact sum has come out yet; it's "between E50,000 and E100,000" according to the ireland.com article. CAT would work out at about 30%, say, so that's at least E16,666 due plus interest and penalties going back 13 years, which may well double the amount. Not huge, but obviously it's the principle.

I don't know what the exact definition of a "Gift" is, but you would have to imagine that something which is freely being described as a gift is a gift. Certainly, common sense says that it's a gift and not income, and tax law (as with all law) does try and apply common sense.

That's my view of it anyway; I'm sure Bertie's accountant is more qualified than me!

DmanDmythDledge

28/09/2006, 10:09 PM

If Chawke is telling the truth then Bertie saw it as a loan and did no wrong surely? Except for not declaring it for tax if he had to?

pineapple stu

28/09/2006, 10:20 PM

I think you're missing a set of inverted commas there.

DmanDmythDledge

28/09/2006, 10:39 PM

That's why I said if.;)

Anyway why am I here?:confused:

dahamsta

29/09/2006, 12:06 AM

New statement from Bertie here (http://verbo.se/notablog/father-bertie/).

Plastic Paddy

30/09/2006, 9:14 AM

Bertie's affairs (no, not that one ;) ) make the Diary page in this morning's Guardian:

The annual Irish embassy party at the Labour conference took place on Tuesday, just after it emerged that Bertie Ahern had been accepting large and generous loans from friends. Word quickly zipped around the room that you could buy in Dublin a garment labelled "Been there, done that, bought the Taoiseach".

:D

:ball: PP

pineapple stu

30/09/2006, 9:29 AM

Sure the same t-shirt (Ben there, Dunne that, bought the Taoiseach) was around ten years ago.

Plastic Paddy

30/09/2006, 10:15 AM

Sure the same t-shirt (Ben there, Dunne that, bought the Taoiseach) was around ten years ago.

So what does that say about the calibre or probity of Irish politicians then?

:ball: PP

Macy

02/10/2006, 7:28 AM

So what does that say about the calibre or probity of Irish politicians then?
The best money can buy?

rebs23

02/10/2006, 2:58 PM

The most depressing thing about all of this is the 65% of people according to opinion polls that think he should stay on. We get the politicians we deserve and maybe we do deserve this idiot! Christ I really was hoping this would be the end of the Bertie (Please everyone and tell what they want to hear) Politics. Looks like he'll survive this and possibly get a few extra votes for the tearjerker performance on the telly. Depressing.

pete

02/10/2006, 6:07 PM

I love the way Bertie friends in cabinet are coming out with the "I wouldn't take the money myself..but i have never been in such a poor personal state so I can't judge..."

He was earning big money when he took those gifts. I don't believe the poor-mouth excuses. :rolleyes:

Its clear the government strategy (both FF & PD) will be to try & push this under the carpet tomorrow but I can't see the media or opposition letting it go. I think the focus has shifted from the 50k gift/loan as opposition seen to be harsh to be attacking him on matter occured during marraige breakup. I think the media will still be looking for answers on:

- if he had no bank account where was he putting his savings?
- admission he oppointed people to state boards because they friends
- why he felt it ok to accept cash in Manchester & not see as donation. eas this a regular occurence?

Student Mullet

02/10/2006, 6:19 PM

I think the media will still be looking for answers on:

- if he had no bank account where was he putting his savings?
- admission he oppointed people to state boards because they friends
- why he felt it ok to accept cash in Manchester & not see as donation. eas this a regular occurence?I think these are probably the three weakest points of attack.
- Who cares what type of bank accounts he used.
- The media can & will attack him here but not the opposition because they've done the same.
- It's obviously not a regular occurance as he owned up to it himself as the only other money he's received that he can't properly account for.

If I was in the opposition I would be searching for a tax law or precendent that could get him in trouble. Failing that, an ethics code or law. People aren't going to turn against Bertie en masse because he used a joint bank account but if he has a piece if illegality pinned on him he'll have to go.

pete

02/10/2006, 6:23 PM

- Who cares what type of bank accounts he used.

Are you suggesting its ok to mix personal, party & policital donations, gifts and loans in the one bank account? Maybe he was writting cheques for personal use out of his campaign account? Adding the fact he apparently has no records for 5 years at that time seems fishy to me...

Student Mullet

02/10/2006, 6:28 PM

Are you suggesting its ok to mix personal, party & policital donations, gifts and loans in the one bank account? Maybe he was writting cheques for personal use out of his campaign account? Adding the fact he apparently has no records for 5 years at that time seems fishy to me...And maybe he's the flying spaghetti monster. We have no evidance of either.

If the opposition can pin onto him a wrongdoing like the one you suggest then they'll have done their job. If Pat Rabbitt again finds it amazing that the Minister of Finance didn't have a personal bank account he'll just have generated more hot air.

Macy

03/10/2006, 7:21 AM

Student Mullet, he did do wrong - taking the money off business men while Minister of Finance is morally wrong. The sums have to be put in the context of the time, and they were huge amounts of money. Chosing to hide behind Miriam's apron strings at every given opportunity (even at the ladies bogball final on Sunday) shows the real character of the "man" and what kind of act he really put on on 6 one.

rebs23 - we have the least sophisticated electorate in Europe. Nothing would surprise me when it comes to the Irish electorate anymore.

BohsPartisan

03/10/2006, 8:07 AM

And maybe he's the flying spaghetti monster. We have no evidance of either.

.

What about the trail of Bolognaise sauce that he leaves after him everywhere he goes?

Student Mullet

03/10/2006, 3:04 PM

Macy

03/10/2006, 3:12 PM

I'll turn against Bertie if he's broken a law
Pleased to see morals and ethics still held in such high regard by voters!

Student Mullet

03/10/2006, 3:19 PM

Pleased to see morals and ethics still held in such high regard by voters!Glad to hear it but you're making a judgement of me there Macy which I don't apreciate. Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean that I have no sence of morality.
My morals include the concept of 'innocent untill proven guilty'. I've seen all the different charges laid against him and I don't see that he has acted immoraly or unethically.

dahamsta

03/10/2006, 3:28 PM

dahamsta

03/10/2006, 3:30 PM

BTW, I have to say that the mutterings coming from the opposition on this are sickening. It's make anything think they didn't want an investigation for some reason...

Student Mullet

03/10/2006, 3:34 PM

I have to back Macy on this one Student Mullet, I took your statement in exactly the same way he did. But let's not beat around the bush: if it's proven that he did take the money, even if it wasn't actually against the law, do you think that's ok?

adamI don't see the need for proof since he's admitted to receiving the money. And yes, I think it was OK to take it.

pete

03/10/2006, 3:44 PM

In the end i suppose bad morals will not be a hanging offence for Bertie although breaking a law will almost certainly.

I don't understand the whole Manchester thing anyway. We know he accepted the money. I think we know no actual law against it? We can probably agree poor morals to accept a gift from business people for personal use when Minister for Finance.

We are all biased anyway & have already made our minds up.

dahamsta

03/10/2006, 3:54 PM

"I didn't have a bank account." --Bertie Ahern, while Minister for Finance

ROFL

blobbyblob

03/10/2006, 3:57 PM

"I didn't have a bank account." --Bertie Ahern

ROFL

Unbelievable - Let the election begin

pete

03/10/2006, 4:32 PM

�As I survey the events of the last two weeks, I realise that my judgment in accepting help from good and loyal friends and the gift in Manchester (albeit in the context of personal and family circumstances) was an error. It was a misjudgment, although not in breach of any law or code of conduct at the time.�

No tax payable on donations (http://www.breakingnews.ie/2006/10/03/story279470.html)

Ahern clearly an inept Minister for Finance if no tax was payable on gifts and loans when he was in charge. Maybe its just me but I find it amazing that Bertie can be paid under the cover of a loan/gift for pesonal work in Manchester. Sure every politicians will use this excuse for bribes (i am not suggesting Ahern was bribed) they received. "Ah sure t'was only a gift..."

:rolleyes: