NI support

[EalingGreen]

As an Irish "Brit", who supports Northern Ireland, I don't think I really fancy being "united" with these chaps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5EIWA2VZZs

Wonder what Jackie Charlton and all the other "Brits" who have served the ROI over the years would make of that carry on?

It's only "a bit o craic".:rolleyes:

I don't believe a word of it. It must have been faked by Black Brit Securocrat propagandists, so as to tarnish the good name of those Jolly Green Giants. It was probably NI fans in Belfast, "Standing Up Cos They Hate the Taigs". Although cleverly done, the clue was in the offkey singing of the ringleader - everybody knows that all Oirish have perfect pitch and all Orangemen are tuneless cloth-eared bigots...

P.S. Doesn't that fella on the left look suspiciously like Sir Bobby Robson?

[EalingGreen]

Given Jack initiated Irish rebs.being played on the team bus, doubt he'd have a problem. :p

As for all these 'Brits' you allude to, there's a concept called Diaspora! :cool:
Believe there's a large representative group of the Scots version, currently residing in the North! ;)

Simple question, RDB: Do you approve of Xenophobia, or do you consider it a matter for levity?

[dcfcsteve]

I was in Stuttgart and disliked intensely the old-school rebel-oriented attitude/songs of a tiny, tiny minority of fans. Overtime, that has the potential to make me a less active supporter of the Republic.

Most of them are southerners who think it's all just a bit of a laugh, although there was the odd Northerner - incl one on the metro who was trying to lead choruses of 'If you hate the f*ckin Linfield clap yer hands'. Which seemed thoroughly out of place until he revealed his true colours by progressing onto 'If you love Cliftonville, clap yer hands....' :o

Interesting to see a huge amount of mutual respect between the Irish and German fans, which I don't think you'd see with the Norn Iron fans and them. It wasn't so long ago that even the new 'happier/transitional' Northern Ireland fanbase was being told by the IFA not to taunt the Germans about the war, but they decided to emulate their English cousins by doing so anyway.

[Not Brazil]

Interesting to see a huge amount of mutual respect between the Irish and German fans, which I don't think you'd see with the Norn Iron fans and them.

dcfcsteve,

We get on great with the Germans, I'm pleased to report, thanks. :)

Indeed, those that travelled to Lurgan on Friday night for the Under 21 game were treated with much "mutual respect".

You'll bump into some Germans at most of our away games.:eek:

[Gather round]

'If you hate the f*ckin Linfield clap yer hands'. Which seemed thoroughly out of place until he revealed his true colours by progressing onto 'If you love Cliftonville, clap yer hands....' :o

Ha. Until quite recently (ie, the Setanta Cup) I'd guess that many, even most RoI fans, the ones who don't follow LoI, would barely have heard of Linfield or other IL teams.


Interesting to see a huge amount of mutual respect between the Irish and German fans, which I don't think you'd see with the Norn Iron fans and them. It wasn't so long ago that even the new 'happier/transitional' Northern Ireland fanbase was being told by the IFA not to taunt the Germans about the war, but they decided to emulate their English cousins by doing so anyway

Have you any actual evidence for this? Were more than a genuine handful doing the dambuster? Would it have had any effect on the Germans anyway- given that most of them under 70 who aren't from Sauerland would likely have never heard of it? Why did the Germans base in Belfast last time a big tournament was held in England, in 1996?

I suspect our off-field reputation with the Germans is broadly the same as yours. We bring more fans away than the larger Med countries, we party and we may drink too much. WW2 is largely irrelevant- Germany aren't a major rival for us as they are for England, so socio-political stuff doesn't apply.

PS Bring on the Spaniards. See ye in the F3K, Ealing.

[EalingGreen]

To be honest, take most of it with a large pinch of salt.
Which is an unfortunate analogy, given the people of my acquaintance from the North :rolleyes: with their obsession about all things 'fast food', ie.songs re.'chicken suppers', 'tatty eaters' etc.:eek:
Which I wouldn't mind, but most of them are expert exponents of this type of diet!

Many of the lyrics are 'unfortunate', but try to see most of it now as 'sectarian banter'.

As for 'Xenophobia'.....look at our old friends the 'Super-Prods'.
Know they are unrepresentative of (say 5%) the Northern population as a whole......would say they're amongst the most 'expert' in this field, in Europe! Ask them.

Dear oh dear, you just don't get it, do you?

This is a thread about the NI football support. I and others have attempted to cite our own experience of this, warts and all, based on the evidence we see when we actually go to matches.
Broadly speaking, the conclusion is that the behaviour and attitudes of the fans has improved almost immeasurably since the bad old days of a few years back.
As such, this has been recognised by numerous neutral, credible and authoritative observers. Of course, this transformation is still a "Work in Progress", with plenty more to do. No one is claiming it is perfect; nor should we expect everyone to love us for it.
Yet, your response throughout (and that of one or two others) has been begrudging at best, and one of denial at worst, even though it is not based on first-hand relevant experience but rather stems from the accounts and attitudes of certain unidentified "friends" and "sources", who can hardly be claimed to be relevant or representative (if they even exist, which, frankly, I'm beginning very much to doubt). No matter, we're used to it.
Now, however, you drag the level of debate down to a new low. When challenged by undeniable evidence of poor behaviour by some of your fellow ROI supporters, of exactly the same kind for which you excoriate some NI fans, do we hear a simple condemnation? Do we ****!
Instead, we get the above stream of puerile, irrelevant "whataboutery" which says nothing about its intended target and adds nothing to the debate. Mind you, it says a whole lot about you and your petty mindset.
Sad. Very sad.

[EalingGreen]

Oops. Don't quite know how the above post reappeared again. Now deleted.

[EalingGreen]

Lighten up,FFS! Your problem is you are taking yourself too seriously........
You asked me a question & I gave you an honest answer.

Now you seem to want me to be accountable for the actions/opinions of individual fans, from North & South......the vast majority, whom I don't have a specific problem with. Given your attitude, don't reckon whatever I say, would convince you otherwise.

As for my 'sources';why would I make them up? Believe you know :rolleyes: some of them yourself, but I for one wouldn't be as judgemental......or presumptious about them as you seem to want to be.
That said, I don't have a specific problem with you;as said in posts passim I acknowledge the improved work done in recent years, albeit from a very low base. Though I do notice some of your fans were complaining about the behaviour of their own last weekend.......not I would hold them accountable for having to do this.

However both sides know it will take a good time longer to 'iron' out their differences, if ever, if at all (Way beyond our lifetimes,IMO). This relates to the wider political & cultural issues, which your/our support is undoubtedly a reflection of. So what if there are a few 'rough edges', in the main.

I tell you what, RDB. I'll be in the Three Kings this evening. I'll be glad to watch the game with you. I'll even buy a round (not something I'm known for, generally).
However, there's one condition: leave your "political and cultural issues" at the door, because more than anything else, it's boring and I really couldn't be arsed.

[dcfcsteve]

Have you any actual evidence for this? Were more than a genuine handful doing the dambuster? Would it have had any effect on the Germans anyway- given that most of them under 70 who aren't from Sauerland would likely have never heard of it? Why did the Germans base in Belfast last time a big tournament was held in England, in 1996?

I suspect our off-field reputation with the Germans is broadly the same as yours. We bring more fans away than the larger Med countries, we party and we may drink too much. WW2 is largely irrelevant- Germany aren't a major rival for us as they are for England, so socio-political stuff doesn't apply.

PS Bring on the Spaniards. See ye in the F3K, Ealing.

The IFA handed out leaflets the last time you played Germany at home (1999 ?) requesting fans not to taunt them about the war, and suggesting alternative songs instead. The fact that they felt the need to do this suggests that they believed there would be a problem. The media then picked-up on the fact that this plea was ignored as there were audible renditions of Dambusters etc during the game.

I saw and heard zero references to the war amongst the ROI fans last weekend. The war simply isn't the 'hang up' for those who follow the Republic that it is for those those who support England, and to a lesser extent NI. For obvious reasons, but it's the situation none-the-less.

As for the Three Kings - I know it well, as it used to be my sister's local ! Will happily join you all for a match down there some evening when I'm free and the Republic aren't playing. Unfortunately I play footie on a Wednesday, so I'm ruled out for tonight.

[Not Brazil]

The IFA handed out leaflets the last time you played Germany at home (1999 ?) requesting fans not to taunt them about the war, and suggesting alternative songs instead. The fact that they felt the need to do this suggests that they believed there would be a problem. The media then picked-up on the fact that this plea was ignored as there were audible renditions of Dambusters etc during the game.


4th June 2005 was the last time we played Germany at home actually - IFA 125th Anniversary match.

No problems at all with German fans - we enjoyed eachothers company, as we always do when we play that nation.:)

[EalingGreen]

The IFA handed out leaflets the last time you played Germany at home (1999 ?) requesting fans not to taunt them about the war, and suggesting alternative songs instead. The fact that they felt the need to do this suggests that they believed there would be a problem. The media then picked-up on the fact that this plea was ignored as there were audible renditions of Dambusters etc during the game.


Steve, I'm not quite sure what point you're trying to make here. No reasonable NI fan would deny that we have an element within our support who occasionally behave badly (though that is much decreased, even since 1999).
I, in turn, could just as easily cite examples of bad behaviour by ROI fans - e.g. abuse of Holland's Rangers players, anti-Semitic behaviour v Israel or, five days ago, anti-British xenophobia in Stuttgart.
The fact is, I happily recognise that these are the actions of a small and unrepresentative minority and should in no way reflect on the vast majority of decent ROI fans like yourself.
I would hope that you and your fellow ROI fans could similarly recognise that our lunatic fringe are equally unrepresentative and that further, just as it is entirely safe for any Prod/Jew/Brit etc. to attend an ROI game in Dublin, it is equally safe for a Catholic/Nationalist/Southerner etc. to watch an NI game in Belfast.
Otherwise, we are doomed to pursue an endless game of "whataboutery" which serves absolutely no purpose whatever.
Or don't you agree?

[Dassa]

Though on the football front, you seemed to have coaxed a minimum of 2 goals out of that donkey Healy......Sanchez must know something his club managers don't...............:eek:


yea he does, dont play him right wing. note to Blackwell.

[Mr_Parker]

The IFA handed out leaflets the last time you played Germany at home (1999 ?) requesting fans not to taunt them about the war, and suggesting alternative songs instead. The fact that they felt the need to do this suggests that they believed there would be a problem. The media then picked-up on the fact that this plea was ignored as there were audible renditions of Dambusters etc during the game.


Having read your post yesterday I thought it ironic that the first song played at half time at Windsor last night a war film tune, the Great Escape I think it was..

[EalingGreen]

So Irish fans who have won 2 major FIFA awards are somehow great transgressors now? Continue putting yer own house in order, before you come 'throwing stones' elsewhere;:rolleyes: 'Whataboutery' indeed. :(

Though on the football front, you seemed to have coaxed a minimum of 2 goals out of that donkey Healy......Sanchez must know something his club managers don't...............:eek:

RDB, sometimes I think you haven't a clue. "Whataboutery" is where someone is accused of something and in response, points to someone else, in order to avoid accountability or absolve the blame.
Whereas, in my post, I quite clearly accepted that we have an element in our support which sometimes behaves badly, as, indeed do the supporters of most teams - including even the ROI.
However, I went on to say that the majority should not be blamed for the actions of an unrepresentative minority. That applies equally to NI and ROI and explains why both sets of supporters have received awards and commendations for their overall good behaviour and sportsmanship.
For the record, as someone who has been to ROI matches both home and abroad, I admire their support. Then again, to do so requires a sense of perspective and objectivity which you clearly lack. Or perhaps you are one of these childish people who can't take pleasure in their own accomplishments if someone else is also getting praise?
Oh well, it's your loss; I'm quite sure the NI support won't allow such petty begrudgery to deflect us from the continuing task of setting and keeping our own house in order.

Or to put it another way, if your judgement on football supporting is as seriously ****ed up as your judgement on football players*, then perhaps you better take up another hobby. Might I suggest brick-chewing or lemon-sucking?

* - For the record, that "donkey" Healy has now scored 23 goals in 52 international appearances. I look forward to his adding considerably to that tally in coming years, now that he is beginning to approach his prime.

P.S. When you refer to "Irish" fans having won two major awards, which Irish fans are you referring to? After all, there are Irish fans, and there are Irish fans...

[EalingGreen]

Having read your post yesterday I thought it ironic that the first song played at half time at Windsor last night a war film tune, the Great Escape I think it was..

Oh dear, you clearly don't know what "irony" is. Spain weren't part of WWII, so it didn't mean a thing to them. In last night's context, it was just another catchy tune that football supporters sing, as they do at matches all over the land.
Still, if that's the best you can come up, I daresay we're doing something right!

[Mr_Parker]

Oh dear, you clearly don't know what "irony" is. Spain weren't part of WWII, so it didn't mean a thing to them. In last night's context, it was just another catchy tune that football supporters sing, as they do at matches all over the land.
No it wouldn't mean anything to them but it would seem ironic to those fans who are being told it is not ok to sing at one game yet be promoted by the IFA themselves at another. Are the IFA intending to produce an approved songlist divided by countires visiting Windsor?



Still, if that's the best you can come up, I daresay we're doing something right!

Letting you enjoy your day. :)

[EalingGreen]

No it wouldn't mean anything to them but it would seem ironic to those fans who are being told it is not ok to sing at one game yet be promoted by the IFA themselves at another. Are the IFA intending to produce an approved songlist divided by countires visiting Windsor?

No, still no irony here, it's merely a case of behaving appropriately, according to the company being kept. I watched last night's match in the pub with 20 other NI fans. You might guess our language as the various goals went in! Had I been watching the match in my local Vicar's house, I would hope I would have been more restrained. (Well, until Healy's third, at any rate ;) )

[-lamb-]

^ fixed view and fixated.
why do you even post in here if everything about the place makes you foam and spout nonsense most of the time?
you've done nothing but b*tch, bemoan, begrudge and attempt to spoil?
go away and sit in a dark room for (quite) a while.
you don't work for the daily ireland and are just about to lose your job by any chance?

[EalingGreen]

Look Fair F*cks to the P****t State;Never will agree with them......despite having lived there in me formative years.
The 'best' & most f*cked-up people in the world ever.......drinking with 2 Unionists from Bangor recently(I was more into the the North than they were! :eek: ) ........They really didn't give a ****, & I was more into the 'concept' of yer footy team than they were!!!! :eek:

PS.DH;Still Sh*t in club football!

I'm not really sure what this is really about - though Lamb has probably got the measure of you; perhaps you should have stopped drinking when your Bangor friends did?

Anyway, back to football and your near-obsessive dislike of Sir David (or Ronaldhealyo, as someone re-named him on Wednesday)
It is, of course, possible for a good player to perform badly on occasion. Indeed, it is also possible for a good player to struggle to produce his best on a consistent basis in a poor team.
But I don't really understand how a player can be "****" in club football, then suddenly outstanding at a much higher standard, over a consistent run of games. Quite simply, 23 goals in 52 international games, including top nations like England, Germany and Spain, cannot be coincidence - especially when it is achieved for a team that is often otherwise mediocre (at best).
From having studied Healy's career, I think there is an explanation. Though he's hardly slow, DH will never have the searing pace of e.g. a Michael Owen. Nor has he the strength of e.g. an Alan Shearer. Then again, Teddy Sheringham was never quick and Gary Lineker was never robust, and they could both score goals.
The key lies in playing to Healy's strengths, which are intelligence and understanding of the game, desire and application, and an ability to finish chances which is as good as anyone, anywhere in the English game (imo).
Above all, Healy needs to be playing alongside a Targetman, who can create the space for him to move into and exploit. Whereas the 2nd and 3rd goals v Spain caught the eye for the excellence of their finish, the first was actually just as good, as an illustration of Healy's outstanding eye for a chance, following big Lafferty winning the ball from a cross, to unsettle Alonso and set up the opportunity. The awareness and coolness (plus the wee nudge on the defender ;) ) displayed by Healy is something that simply can't be taught.
Indeed, a closer study of his NI career is also revealing. Under McIlroy, Healy's goalscoring rate was only half as prolific as under Sanchez. McIlroy frequently picked DH either alone, or alongside a little, quick guy, such as Paul McVeigh. Significantly, Healy played every match of that 12 match scoreless run which led to McIroy jumping ship.
Whereas, the first thing Sanchez did was to restore James Quinn to play alongside Healy; the fact that JQ is only a journeyman (at best), didn't prevent Healy from getting the space to play, suddenly the goals flowed again, and Healy and NI haven't looked back. This is not coincidence.
Probably the best analogy I've seen was with Clive Allen. Allen rarely fulfilled the ability he undoubtedly had (good enough to play for England at a time when they had some decent alternatives). Part of this was down to the fact that he was forever moving clubs. And often when he was at a club for two or three years, the manager changed during that time. Consequently, clubs often never knew how to get the best out of him.
The shining exception was in 1986-87 for Spurs, in David Pleat's second season in charge. Pleat found the perfect role for Allen by playing him on his own up front, but in front of an attacking five man midfield (including Hoddle and Waddle). Allen scored 49 goals, Spurs finished 3rd in the League, got to the final of the FACup and Semi of the League Cup and Allen was (I think) Footballer of the Year.
However, Terry Venables took over during the next season, he signed Lineker from Barca (where Cruyff had exiled him to the right wing) as soon as he could and Allen never got the chance again.
It may be that Healy won't get a proper chance at club level, at least unless something changes at Elland Road where, as you will know, Kevin Blackwell has picked Healy nearly as many times on the right wing, as he has down the middle. Says it all, really.

[Not Brazil]

drinking with 2 Unionists from Bangor recently(I was more into the the North than they were! :eek: ) ........They really didn't give a ****, & I was more into the 'concept' of yer footy team than they were!!!! :eek:

So what?

What's your point?

[Réiteoir]

I suspect this one meets your brief, for example :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Proposed_NI_Flag.png

And it also cunningly includes elements of both traditions to a balanced degree.

Or we could go down the Cypriot route and use this one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Alliance_ni_flag.png

or this one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:North_flagproposal1111.JPG

[EalingGreen]

Or we could go down the Cypriot route and use this one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Alliance_ni_flag.png

or this one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:North_flagproposal1111.JPG

It's actually a whole lot easier to go down the route which thousands of fans from all backgrounds are following right now, which is just go to the match and enjoy the bloody football.

I've posted it here before, but people have got to realise that not only is it physically impossible to come to one single arrangement which suits absolutely everybody re. flags and anthems and all the other peripheral issues, but (imo), it is not actually even desirable, since to attempt to do so would only be to hold the game hostage to purely political considerations, so that all that it takes is for one disaffected or mischievous or extremist party to complain that they are dissatisfied/outraged/discriminated against, for the "arrangements" to fall apart.

Instead, we presently have a set-up which is recognised by all neutral observers such as FIFA and UEFA as being tolerably acceptable to all reasonable people, so that no football fan need be deterred from supporting the team for reasons of race, colour, religion etc
That is not the same as saying that everyone "enjoys" or agrees with all of these issues as being perfectly to their liking (personally, I would like to see GSTQ replaced by a distinctively NI anthem for example); however the key term is "reasonable".
And for anyone who wishes to see what actually happens at a match at Windsor Park, they will find that the audience is made up of people of all backgrounds, none of whom has been deterred by reason of that background, but all of whom are there merely to watch 11 guys from their own wee part of the world take on 11 guys from some other part of the world.
Sometimes this experience is desperate (Iceland) and sometimes it is glorious (Spain), but no-one says these days that they wouldn't go back because they couldn't stomach a two minute anthem before the kick-off, or the fact that some of the fans were waving different flags from that which hangs from the lamppost outside their house.

Which is what "Football For All" is all about - simply, it is for all those Northern Ireland fans who want to support Northern Ireland. If some other people don't wish to do so, for whatever reason or none, that is their prerogative.
In the meantime, the rest of us will just get on with watching the bloody game... :)

[dcfcsteve]

I've posted it here before, but people have got to realise that not only is it physically impossible to come to one single arrangement which suits absolutely everybody re. flags and anthems and all the other peripheral issues, but (imo), it is not actually even desirable, since to attempt to do so would only be to hold the game hostage to purely political considerations, so that all that it takes is for one disaffected or mischievous or extremist party to complain that they are dissatisfied/outraged/discriminated against, for the "arrangements" to fall apart.

Is it really that impossible ? South Africa managed it superbly.....


Instead, we presently have a set-up which is recognised by all neutral observers such as FIFA and UEFA as being tolerably acceptable to all reasonable people, so that no football fan need be deterred from supporting the team for reasons of race, colour, religion etc

As if FIFA care, let alone understand, the divisive nature of GSTQ etc. It's not an issue they can do anything about - it's an IFA issue.

If flags and anthems are as unimportant as you say, and the current ones are clearly causing problems, then surely the one genuinely easy thing to do is to just change the bloody things ??

[EalingGreen]

Is it really that impossible ? South Africa managed it superbly.....

As if FIFA care, let alone understand, the divisive nature of GSTQ etc. It's not an issue they can do anything about - it's an IFA issue.

If flags and anthems are as unimportant as you say, and the current ones are clearly causing problems, then surely the one genuinely easy thing to do is to just change the bloody things ??

I'm not sufficiently clued up on the politics of South African sport to make a facile comparison with the situation in NI. I do know, however, that the post-Apartheid changes were imposed by an 85% majority on a 15% minority which knew it was powerless to provide any meaningful objection. Also, SA had Mandela and De Klerk at the helm, whereas we've got Paisley and Adams! Besides, if you Google e.g. SA Rugby+race quotas, you'll see that not all the changes have been managed quite so "superbly" as everyone might hope - even years later.

And as for the state of knowledge of FIFA over GSTQ, I wouldn't like to speculate, but it is quite simply untrue to imply that such issues are solely the preserve of the IFA. As far back as 1950 for example, FIFA intervened to direct the IFA that they should cease to call the team they administer "Ireland", replacing it with "Northern Ireland"; at the same time they instructed the equivalent to the FAI. And as recently as last month they threatened to bar the Greek FA and all Greek footballers from all international competition, if the Greek Government insisted on passing a law which FIFA felt gave them undue political influence in the affairs of the Greek FA. (The Greek Government backed down, btw).

As for flags and anthems, I don't say that they are "unimportant"; rather, that they are only as important as somebody makes them. To take an analogy, at every Ireland rugby international at Lansdowne, the identity of thousands of Northern fans, reflecting one of the two jurisdictions comprising the Ireland team, is ignored. No matter, we continue to respect the Soldiers Song and Tricolour, as well as the "Official" presence of Mary McAleese, since we are there to watch a rugby match, not engage in some sort of petty constitutional convention! If Northern Unionists can show that tolerance at Lansdowne and increasing numbers of Northern Nationalists also can show equal tolerance and forebearing at Windsor, I don't see why anyone should have a problem. Unless, of course, they want one...

In the end, politics in NI are nothing if not a "zero sum" game. You can be quite certain that if you change something to suit one "aggrieved" party, you will cause equal "offence" to some other party. Which is why it better not to let the politicians call the shots.
As I say, we currently have an arrangement at Windsor which, although hardly perfect, works tolerably well for all people of a tolerant and reasonable disposition.
Why change that in order to suit one disgruntled section of the population who don't appear willing to adopt the same degree of reasonableness, especially when some of them could never accept any arrangements which reflect a "partitionist" team, indeed aren't even interested in football at all?

The fact is, we've changed - some of our critics haven't, whose problem is it?

[dcfcsteve]

In the end, politics in NI are nothing if not a "zero sum" game. You can be quite certain that if you change something to suit one "aggrieved" party, you will cause equal "offence" to some other party. Which is why it better not to let the politicians call the shots.
As I say, we currently have an arrangement at Windsor which, although hardly perfect, works tolerably well for all people of a tolerant and reasonable disposition. Why change that in order to suit one disgruntled section of the population who don't appear willing to adopt the same degree of reasonableness, especially when some of them could never accept any arrangements which reflect a "partitionist" team, indeed aren't even interested in football at all?

EG -your arguement here is based on the false premise that anyone who raises issue with the symbolism that the NI team chooses to attach to itself can only be inherently opposed to the NI team, so their viewpoint is purely scurrilous in nature and can therefore be ignored/is irrelevant.

There can be no doubt that many people opposed to the concept of the NI team use anthems and flags as a stick with which to beat that team. But there are also people who actively go to Northern Ireland games who have very strong views on this issue (e.g. Maribor, who posted previously) and others who are not at all opposed to the concept of a Northern Irish football team, would be willing to go to games, but just want a matchday experience that isn't wrapped up in the identity of one or other of our two communities (e.g. myself). Dismissing those viewpoints by ascribing a negative agenda to them (even though, as is clearly in the case of Maribor, it is often patently incorrect to do so) is just a convenient/lazy way of brusing genuine issues concerns under the carpet.

The bottom line still stands - how can a deeply divided society present a face to the world that is draped in the symbolism of only one side of that divide, and then claim that it is a truely representative body for the whole of that society ? Answer - it can't. No matter what aspersions you may cast at those who point-out that bottom line, it still stands.


I'm not sufficiently clued up on the politics of South African sport to make a facile comparison with the situation in NI. I do know, however, that the post-Apartheid changes were imposed by an 85% majority on a 15% minority which knew it was powerless to provide any meaningful objection. Also, SA had Mandela and De Klerk at the helm, whereas we've got Paisley and Adams! Besides, if you Google e.g. SA Rugby+race quotas, you'll see that not all the changes have been managed quite so "superbly" as everyone might hope - even years later.

You said that it would be impossible to address the flag and anthem issue. I pointed out to you that South Africa had done a good job of it. The point was about choice of symbolism, and nothing to do with sport, so you don't need to be clued-up on anything regarding South African sport to understand it. Interestingly, the new South African flag faced opposition from within the white community when it was first launched, but over-time they have embraced it fully (bar the odd nut-job Afrikaaner extremist). Would it be so unlikely that any initial oppositon here to a new flag might also change with time if an appropriate and balanced flag was introduced...?


And as for the state of knowledge of FIFA over GSTQ, I wouldn't like to speculate, but it is quite simply untrue to imply that such issues are solely the preserve of the IFA. As far back as 1950 for example, FIFA intervened to direct the IFA that they should cease to call the team they administer "Ireland", replacing it with "Northern Ireland"; at the same time they instructed the equivalent to the FAI. And as recently as last month they threatened to bar the Greek FA and all Greek footballers from all international competition, if the Greek Government insisted on passing a law which FIFA felt gave them undue political influence in the affairs of the Greek FA. (The Greek Government backed down, btw).

There are some things that are clearly within FIFA's remit, and some that aren't. 'Footballing matters' is the key differentiator. Having 2 teams in international football using exactly the same name was clearly a ridiculous situation, and a footballing one, so FIFA had every right to mandate a change (though to adddress this evil interloping by FIFA, how's about we change the name back now....? ;) :p ) The Greek example again was clearly a footballing matter, so they had every right to intervene. What particular anthem a team selects for itself in international football has clearly got feck all to do with football and everything to do with politics (hemnce why a one-sided choice has been made in NI), so it is completely and utterly outside FIFA's remit to care about, let alone intervene.


As for flags and anthems, I don't say that they are "unimportant"; rather, that they are only as important as somebody makes them. To take an analogy, at every Ireland rugby international at Lansdowne, the identity of thousands of Northern fans, reflecting one of the two jurisdictions comprising the Ireland team, is ignored. No matter, we continue to respect the Soldiers Song and Tricolour, as well as the "Official" presence of Mary McAleese, since we are there to watch a rugby match, not engage in some sort of petty constitutional convention! If Northern Unionists can show that tolerance at Lansdowne and increasing numbers of Northern Nationalists also can show equal tolerance and forebearing at Windsor, I don't see why anyone should have a problem. Unless, of course, they want one...

Your example re the rugby is rather self-defeating, as the IRFU has at least done something to acknowledge the sometimes divisive impact of anthems - e.g. introduced Ireland's Call. I've been to many's an Ireland international game over the years where that has been the only anthem used. There are a number of other ways the IRFU could have addressed the issue of anthems other than choosing to play '2' in Lansdowne Rd, for example, but the point is that they recognised there was an issue and they did something to tackle that. These are 2 steps that the IFA steadfastly refuse to take.


The fact is, we've changed - some of our critics haven't, whose problem is it?

No one sensible is denying that the NI matchday experience has improved significantly from what it used to be. But likewise, no-one sensible should be explicity or implicitly suggesting that there is no more change that either could or should be made to make it a truely involving, non-divisive, representative experience. Anthems and flags are well-known as being extremely divisive issues in the north generally, so it should be no great surprise that they raise issues here either when it comes to a team that is designed to openly represent us all internationally. Ignoring these issues, or castigating those who dare raise them, is not the solution.

[Gather round]

EG -your arguement here is based on the false premise that anyone who raises issue with the symbolism that the NI team chooses to attach to itself can only be inherently opposed to the NI team, so their viewpoint is purely scurrilous in nature and can therefore be ignored/is irrelevant

You what? He's made clear that many of our fans- including him and me- don't like our lack of a distinct anthem. Holding such a gripe, or repreating it to anyone willing to listen, doesn't make us any less fans or any more inherently opposed!


The bottom line still stands - how can a deeply divided society present a face to the world that is draped in the symbolism of only one side of that divide, and then claim that it is a truely representative body for the whole of that society?

Look it up in Marca, or the Daily Telegraph last year. They saw their football teams well beaten, not a political demo, as Ealing suggests.

It represents two sides on the field, and increasingly again in the stands, media, wider support etc.. That's because the games are just that, games, whatever Billyfest they may have been before.


d that it would be impossible to address the flag and anthem issue...would it be so unlikely that any initial oppositon here to a new flag might also change with time if an appropriate and balanced flag was introduced...?

Maybe. Everything can change in politics. Alternatively, if ye don't like the flag with the crown, wave one without? No-one will mind.


ample re the rugby is rather self-defeating, as the IRFU has at least done something to acknowledge the sometimes divisive impact of anthems - e.g. introduced Ireland's Call

Last time I looked the IRFU had ****ed off unionists by playing AbF in Dublin but not GStQ in Belfast. In other words, they figured that was less a problem than irritating their own support and the Lenadoon Nazi-hunter ;)

The IFA and supporters are trying to do something less contentious, by making the atmosphere more welcoming without risking a 'themwuns get everything' argument. Which is inevitable, alas, if you stop playing Brenda's anthem. Much as I dislike it.


No one sensible is denying that the NI matchday experience has improved significantly from what it used to be. But likewise, no-one sensible should be explicity or implicitly suggesting that there is no more change that either could or should be made to make it a truely involving, non-divisive, representative experience

I'm not, nor is Ealing nor most NI fans I know. You're stirring, Steve.

[EalingGreen]

Thank you for replying, GR, that's just about what I would have put myself (only somewhat more succinctly, I fear;) )

Indeed all I can add is that last Wednesday evening, they could have flown the Tricolour, played the Wolfe Tones over the tannoy and had Gerry Adams take the "Presidential Salute" at Windsor and I couldn't have cared less! :D

Football For All (Politics for Everyone Else)